63 replies to this topic

[Walter]

but always wanted to see him at the 3 and believed he had the chance to be more special at the 3.  I don't know if it will last (particularly at his "Pf weight"), the slow release but good perimeter shooting and all, but I can see play like that resulting in MW sitting when JJ returns.  It is now time (how many such times have passed us by?) to move MW.  If JS can come in his 2nd game and put up a better game than MW has EVER played at Sf, time to move onto another experiment.  Teague or JC2/ZaZa/MW and possibly unprotected 1st rd pick this year for Javale McGee and Hinrich.  Keep Crawford if not resign him.  Lineup:

Hinrich/Bibby
JJ/Crawford/JC2
JS/Wilkens
Horford/Powell
McGee/Collins

Even without the best pure BUs at Pf/C and Sf, because many of these parts are interchangeable at other positions (i.e. JJ at Sf, JS at 4, Horfrod at 5) we can cover without playing a lineup of Wilken, Powell, Collins and the 3, 4, 5.  If need be, trade Crawford at the deadline, trading one strength to fill another weakness.  I would give up a 1st rd pick also, likely in the 20s IN A SECOND!  We don't need new late 1st talent every year as an established team.  Everybody but essentially Crawford is resigned.  This is NOT about trade equality.  THIS is about finishing out this roster.  Sign a quality D-leaguer or if we trade JC do a 1 for 2 trade.  Just get a high quality center and Pg!  

W

[Jody23]

Walter, on 08 December 2010 - 07:29 AM, said:

but always wanted to see him at the 3 and believed he had the chance to be more special at the 3.  I don't know if it will last (particularly at his "Pf weight"), the slow release but good perimeter shooting and all, but I can see play like that resulting in MW sitting when JJ returns.  It is now time (how many such times have passed us by?) to move MW.  If JS can come in his 2nd game and put up a better game than MW has EVER played at Sf, time to move onto another experiment.  Teague or JC2/ZaZa/MW and possibly unprotected 1st rd pick this year for Javale McGee and Hinrich.  Keep Crawford if not resign him.  Lineup:

Hinrich/Bibby
JJ/Crawford/JC2
JS/Wilkens
Horford/Powell
McGee/Collins

Even without the best pure BUs at Pf/C and Sf, because many of these parts are interchangeable at other positions (i.e. JJ at Sf, JS at 4, Horfrod at 5) we can cover without playing a lineup of Wilken, Powell, Collins and the 3, 4, 5.  If need be, trade Crawford at the deadline, trading one strength to fill another weakness.  I would give up a 1st rd pick also, likely in the 20s IN A SECOND!  We don't need new late 1st talent every year as an established team.  Everybody but essentially Crawford is resigned.  This is NOT about trade equality.  THIS is about finishing out this roster.  Sign a quality D-leaguer or if we trade JC do a 1 for 2 trade.  Just get a high quality center and Pg!  

W

Totally agree.  Josh may not be a prototypical 3, but he more than gets the job done at that spot and as Mike Glenn said last night, the Hawks are a better defensive team with the bigger lineup on the floor.  Josh came into the league playing the 3 spot and I always felt he would still be playing significant minutes there had the Hawks not drafted Marvin.  The need for the organization to save face is long gone.  If playing Josh at the 3 allows the Hawks to be more physical and better defensively overall, they need to stick with.

[Wurider05]

Slow your roll folks. Again we dominated inferior competition last night. We always looks good against the Net, Wolves, Grizzlies etc. We can't compete against the elite teams with Josh at the 3. You all always get a false sense of pride when we beat these non playoff, lottery teams. What's going to happen when Josh goes against someone who will actually attempt to guard him and stop his seemingly always open jumpers. As long as his shots are open he is fine. You think come playoff time they are going to let him take open shots? You think that Pierce or Lebron going to leave him open. Did you not see the Miami game where every time Smoove was on Lebron Lebron tried to drive on him when he would never try to drive on MArv or D Wilkins. He gave him too much space because of his poor perimeter defense. This will get exploited come playoff time.  Slow your roll fellas, SLow your roll!!!!!!

Edited by Wurider05, 08 December 2010 - 09:26 AM.

[AHF]

Wurider05, on 08 December 2010 - 09:26 AM, said:

Did you not see the Miami game where every time Smoove was on Lebron Lebron tried to drive on him when he would never try to drive on MArv or D Wilkins. He gave him too much space because of his poor perimeter defense. This will get exploited come playoff time.  Slow your roll fellas, SLow your roll!!!!!!

On the raw numbers, Josh Smith >>> Marvin Williams.  The question for me is more about what is the best team on the floor not whether Smith can put up better numbers than Josh.  Josh at the PG position would probably put up better numbers than Mike Bibby but that doesn't mean it is the best use of his talents.  The perimeter defense concerns me a lot, the loss of the weakside help defense worries me, and I remain unconvinced that Josh is someone who will be effective at spacing the floor with his perimeter shooting long-term, although I would love to be wrong on all of those items.


Let's circle December 16 on the calendar to see how Smooth matches up against Paul Pierce on the perimeter.  That will be more telling on the issue of perimeter defense than matching up against anyone the lowly Wizards have to offer.

[ISOJoe]

Wurider05, on 08 December 2010 - 09:26 AM, said:

Slow your roll folks. Again we dominated inferior competition last night. We always looks good against the Net, Wolves, Grizzlies etc. We can't compete against the elite teams with Josh at the 3. You all always get a false sense of pride when we beat these non playoff, lottery teams. What's going to happen when Josh goes against someone who will actually attempt to guard him and stop his seemingly always open jumpers. As long as his shots are open he is fine. You think come playoff time they are going to let him take open shots? You think that Pierce or Lebron going to leave him open. Did you not see the Miami game where every time Smoove was on Lebron Lebron tried to drive on him when he would never try to drive on MArv or D Wilkins. He gave him too much space because of his poor perimeter defense. This will get exploited come playoff time.  Slow your roll fellas, SLow your roll!!!!!!

We need a shakeup and a bigger lineup might work in the long run. We all seen what the usual lineup gets us and thats getting blown out in the 2nd Round. Top tier SFs like Lebron and Carmelo crap Marvin anyways too. Those type of players will always get theirs.

AHF, on 08 December 2010 - 09:42 AM, said:

On the raw numbers, Josh Smith >>> Marvin Williams.  The question for me is more about what is the best team on the floor not whether Smith can put up better numbers than Josh.  Josh at the PG position would probably put up better numbers than Mike Bibby but that doesn't mean it is the best use of his talents.  The perimeter defense concerns me a lot, the loss of the weakside help defense worries me, and I remain unconvinced that Josh is someone who will be effective at spacing the floor with his perimeter shooting long-term, although I would love to be wrong on all of those items.


Let's circle December 16 on the calendar to see how Smooth matches up against Paul Pierce on the perimeter.  That will be more telling on the issue of perimeter defense than matching up against anyone the lowly Wizards have to offer.

Paul Pierce will get his 20pt regardless who is on him. Its not like Marvin was a shutdown defender. I would only become concern if sorry *ss SF like Outlaw and Beasley go for 25, then Ill be worried.

[Wurider05]

Smoove at the 3 means Smoove on he bench in foul trouble. Smoove can't help us on the bench. Again I like Smoove but he is a poor defensive player outside of the blocks. He needs to stay in the post defensively. We will put him in position where one of his biggest flaws can be exposed.

Edited by Wurider05, 08 December 2010 - 10:07 AM.

[Jody23]

Wurider05, on 08 December 2010 - 09:26 AM, said:

Slow your roll folks. Again we dominated inferior competition last night. We always looks good against the Net, Wolves, Grizzlies etc. We can't compete against the elite teams with Josh at the 3. You all always get a false sense of pride when we beat these non playoff, lottery teams. What's going to happen when Josh goes against someone who will actually attempt to guard him and stop his seemingly always open jumpers. As long as his shots are open he is fine. You think come playoff time they are going to let him take open shots? You think that Pierce or Lebron going to leave him open. Did you not see the Miami game where every time Smoove was on Lebron Lebron tried to drive on him when he would never try to drive on MArv or D Wilkins. He gave him too much space because of his poor perimeter defense. This will get exploited come playoff time.  Slow your roll fellas, SLow your roll!!!!!!

So Orlando is an inferior team?

[Wurider05]

Half those guys were coming off a stomach virus or something.

[Jody23]

Wurider05, on 08 December 2010 - 10:06 AM, said:

Smoove at the 3 means Smoove on he bench in foul trouble. Smoove can't help us on the bench. Again I like Smoove but he is a poor defensive player outside of the blocks. He needs to stay in the post defensively. We will put him in position where one of his biggest flaws can be exposed.

I'll happily trade Smoove's individual numbers for better overall team defense and rebounding which seems to be the case with the bigger lineup.  Even Mike Glenn admitted last night that the Hawks are a better defensive team and defend the three point line better with the Smith, Horford, Collins lineup.  With two good post defenders in Horford and Collins, Smith won't have to help as much defensively.  Also, he may not be the greatest perimeter defender, but he's not as bad as some suggest.  Besides, I'd rather force teams to beat me on contested jump shots rather than destroying the team in the paint.

[Jody23]

Wurider05, on 08 December 2010 - 10:42 AM, said:

Half those guys were coming off a stomach virus or something.

Okay.  The first game the Hawks played them this year, the Hawks played a bigger lineup and almost won.  In fact, they didn't lose the game until they went back to the usual smaller lineup in the 4th quarter.  Orlando usually murders the Hawks, but the Hawks went with a bigger lineup for most of the game until the 4th quarter.  What was the reason Orlando didn't blow them out?  The Hawks even outrebounded the Magic that game.  Coincidence?

Edited by Jody23, 08 December 2010 - 11:01 AM.

[gsuteke]

There is simply no logical reason or better yet historical figures that suggest Smoove can continue to shoot the way he has been the past few games.

He's been a better shooter than JJ on one of his best days.

[lethalweapon3]

Not taking sides, but thought these stats would help:

http://www.82games.c...ATL11.HTM#bypos

~lw3

[Diesel]

Jody23, on 08 December 2010 - 08:35 AM, said:

Totally agree.  Josh may not be a prototypical 3, but he more than gets the job done at that spot and as Mike Glenn said last night, the Hawks are a better defensive team with the bigger lineup on the floor.  Josh came into the league playing the 3 spot and I always felt he would still be playing significant minutes there had the Hawks not drafted Marvin.  The need for the organization to save face is long gone.  If playing Josh at the 3 allows the Hawks to be more physical and better defensively overall, they need to stick with.

That's just it.  The organization is still trying to save face with Marvin.  Marvin (to me) never earned his starters title.  Many people were moved so that he could keep that title.  Not, it's just to a point where it can't be ignored any longer.  We have better guys who play the position better.

Jody23, on 08 December 2010 - 08:35 AM, said:

Totally agree.  Josh may not be a prototypical 3, but he more than gets the job done at that spot and as Mike Glenn said last night, the Hawks are a better defensive team with the bigger lineup on the floor.  Josh came into the league playing the 3 spot and I always felt he would still be playing significant minutes there had the Hawks not drafted Marvin.  The need for the organization to save face is long gone.  If playing Josh at the 3 allows the Hawks to be more physical and better defensively overall, they need to stick with.

That's just it.  The organization is still trying to save face with Marvin.  Marvin (to me) never earned his starters title.  Many people were moved so that he could keep that title.  Not, it's just to a point where it can't be ignored any longer.  We have better guys who play the position better.

[Jody23]

gsuteke, on 08 December 2010 - 01:23 PM, said:

There is simply no logical reason or better yet historical figures that suggest Smoove can continue to shoot the way he has been the past few games.

He's been a better shooter than JJ on one of his best days.

I don't think Josh will continue to shoot at the current clip.  However, if the team continues to defend and rebound the way it has with him at the 3, I'm fine with him there.  And as good as his perimeter shooting has been, I'm more impressed with the way he's posted up smaller players the last two games.  His game hasn't been all perimeter by any stretch.

[sultanofatl]

I agree Walt, but I would add that LD seems so much less determined to be static about our lineup than Woody.  In that case I look at it as a platoon situation, as in baseball.   Al/Smoove man the 4.     Josh/Marvin man the 3.   Al/Collins man the 5.   I think LD was counting on a platoon of Bibby/Teague, but Teague isn't living up on his end.   I kind of like the way he will tinker with the lineup to give us a tactical edge.