20 replies to this topic

[Wretch]

Diesel, on 03 February 2012 - 04:37 PM, said:

That's the elephant my friend.  Coach Larry has done alot to help our guys elephant.  Elephant is that emotional part of your brain that makes you do.  The elephant can be easily confused and discouraged.  When our shots are not falling and we're behind on the scoreboard, you see our elephant give up.  So even though our team knows what to do.. their elephant is out of the game and they quit.  The elephant is the same for every player in the league.   Some coaches do a better job of motivating the elephant than others.  If we had successes, you wouldn't see that as much.  The more success we have, the more confidence our elephant gets. However, we haven't won nothing (championship). Without the experience of winning something, it's hard to believe that you can.   A quick fix for the elephant is a championship coach.  That's why I wanted a name coach.  Another quick fix is a star player like Dwight.  Leadership is relative.  How many times have I heard Horf being called this teams lockerroom leader.   Horf came from a winning tradition but winning down there and winning up here are two different things.  Daly used to flash the rings to motivate.  Hawks coaching never had that quality.  Hawks players had some motivation with Deke.  I think if Josh goes to the Allstar game, the motivation will increase 10 fold.

I don't know if this core has it in them. We're on the same page as far as a real coach and a real player, but short of that, these cats have to change who they are. Winning or not...  

It's a little chicken and egg-ish to say they need to reach the ECFS/finals before the mindset changes.  Because I dont think they'll get even close if they don't get that focus. I also wouldn't downplay the leadership angle - your leader is your go to guy (usually). A capable character that is also vocal enough to keep the team in line.  Joe is only half of that kind of player...part of the time.

[nbasuperstar40]

Al is better than anyone that will be in this draft and h*ll no to that. Obviously I have no issue trading Dwight for Horford even if it's a rental. We need something that will give us a chance to win a title.

[Diesel]

High5, on 03 February 2012 - 06:51 PM, said:

The Hawks are a flawed team and good teams are usually able to exploit those flaws. Real groundbreaking stuff.

The thing that is found with the Hawks is not something that is normal for all teams so you can't just hang a "this happens to everyteam" on it.  It's not that simple.   I have yet to see a team as successful as we are that doesn't have any semblence of low post scoring.   Have you??  Take your best D'Antonio team... and compare.  At the very least, his successful teams had some type of low post scorer.  Take your best Westphaul team.  At the very least, he had some form of low post scorer.

These Hawks are amazing because without a true low post presence, we beat teams....

Now... Improve your thinking...

What happens if this "FLAWED" team gets a low post scorer....
Do you feel the ground breaking?

Edited by Diesel, 03 February 2012 - 08:54 PM.

[Diesel]

Wretch, on 03 February 2012 - 08:03 PM, said:

I don't know if this core has it in them. We're on the same page as far as a real coach and a real player, but short of that, these cats have to change who they are. Winning or not...  

It's a little chicken and egg-ish to say they need to reach the ECFS/finals before the mindset changes.  Because I dont think they'll get even close if they don't get that focus. I also wouldn't downplay the leadership angle - your leader is your go to guy (usually). A capable character that is also vocal enough to keep the team in line.  Joe is only half of that kind of player...part of the time.

I believe in shrinking the change.   They don't have to win the ECFs.   I think if Josh makes an allstar team and experiences that upper echelon of player, he will be motivated to be a difference maker.  Notice our biggest leaps in winning happened with the inclusions of:

Bibby...
Then
the emergence of Teague.
Also Larry.

What was so great about these changes.
Bibby brought with him something that Lue didn't have.  Playoff experience as a starter.  Lue was a good clutch shooter just like Bibby, but there was nothing exciting to Lue.  Lue provided the exact same thing that Bibby provided but Bibby's presence made a difference because he had been somewhere.  He had been an allstar.   He had been to the 7 game of a WCF.  He was something special.  Lue had a ring but he was a bench rider who got a ring.

Notice the makeup we started with:
Joe - 3rd option in Phoenix.
Josh, Marvin, J-Chillz, Horf... Theses guys had done nothing on this level.

You bring in Bibby, you bring in experience.  The young team's elephant starts to get confidence.

Bibby wasn't enough but he was a good start.

The next phase was the emergence of Teague.
Last year, we were a nothing.   We won 42 games and was just happy to be there.  We got passed Orlando because of a marvelous coaching job.  But enter in the change.   When we had to play Teague, he stepped up.  For some (Joe) Teague started to rewrite who he was in that series.  Again, the elephant of those who believed in the new Teague that Teague was writing got confident.  The problem was that even though some picked up the new Teague, the coach didn't.  Not immediately.   He still talked as if Teague would have to earn it.  That discontinuity confuses the elephant of players.   Had Drew said Teague is now the leader of this franchise, you would have never had Smoove going to the media talking about he needs more touches.

Bottom line.  A shrunken Change will do the trick for us.  What is that?

Well, if we could come out of Feb still in the top 4, we'd be golden.
Maybe adding a player with more experience would help.. but at this point, I just think wins help most.

nbasuperstar40, on 03 February 2012 - 08:27 PM, said:

Al is better than anyone that will be in this draft and h*ll no to that. Obviously I have no issue trading Dwight for Horford even if it's a rental. We need something that will give us a chance to win a title.

I agree here... of course.
However, I would ship Marvin/Kirk off for Kaman today if Kaman is in playing shape.

[Wretch]

Diesel, on 03 February 2012 - 09:07 PM, said:

I believe in shrinking the change.   They don't have to win the ECFs.   I think if Josh makes an allstar team and experiences that upper echelon of player, he will be motivated to be a difference maker.  Notice our biggest leaps in winning happened with the inclusions of:

Bibby...
Then
the emergence of Teague.
Also Larry.

What was so great about these changes.
Bibby brought with him something that Lue didn't have.  Playoff experience as a starter.  Lue was a good clutch shooter just like Bibby, but there was nothing exciting to Lue.  Lue provided the exact same thing that Bibby provided but Bibby's presence made a difference because he had been somewhere.  He had been an allstar.   He had been to the 7 game of a WCF.  He was something special.  Lue had a ring but he was a bench rider who got a ring.

Notice the makeup we started with:
Joe - 3rd option in Phoenix.
Josh, Marvin, J-Chillz, Horf... Theses guys had done nothing on this level.

You bring in Bibby, you bring in experience.  The young team's elephant starts to get confidence.

Bibby wasn't enough but he was a good start.

The next phase was the emergence of Teague.
Last year, we were a nothing.   We won 42 games and was just happy to be there.  We got passed Orlando because of a marvelous coaching job.  But enter in the change.   When we had to play Teague, he stepped up.  For some (Joe) Teague started to rewrite who he was in that series.  Again, the elephant of those who believed in the new Teague that Teague was writing got confident.  The problem was that even though some picked up the new Teague, the coach didn't.  Not immediately.   He still talked as if Teague would have to earn it.  That discontinuity confuses the elephant of players.   Had Drew said Teague is now the leader of this franchise, you would have never had Smoove going to the media talking about he needs more touches.

Bottom line.  A shrunken Change will do the trick for us.  What is that?

Well, if we could come out of Feb still in the top 4, we'd be golden.
Maybe adding a player with more experience would help.. but at this point, I just think wins help most.



I agree here... of course.
However, I would ship Marvin/Kirk off for Kaman today if Kaman is in playing shape.

I guess that works....IF you equate the jump from fringe playoff team to bottom seed, to being one of the last 4 teams still playing games.  Personally, I think it was just a matter of throwing s*** at the wall and something sticking.  TBH, we didn't make the playoffs.  We were 8 games under .500.  It was the Wizards that clinched the playoffs for us beating Indiana.

The truth is, the players just got better.  YES Bibby was an upgrade and brought experience.  Enough to get us to the playoffs and enough to push us up around that 50 win mark.  I agree.  But honestly, we had the talent to be a .500 team in '08 and a 50 win club every year since.  Regardless, that's where we have been for the past 4 years.

Same core.  Same mentality.  Same results.

Do we think Teague is going to break us out of that?  For one, I think he should be option #2 and should have ALL of those jumpers Smoove is firing.  Though, again...even if that were the case, we need a coach that has the balls/authority to do that.  The net result still reinforces what I said.  This core needs

A) Internal changes within each player (something I have a severe lack of faith in).
B) A coach who has been there
C) A player with a personality and a matching game to OWN this club

Given that A won't likely happen and we've been dancing around B and C for what seems like centuries now, I just don't see a Bibby'esque player coming in here and turning this around.  I think we've hit the ceiling.

[nbasuperstar40]

Kaman was never that good. He was a stat line player but never an impactful one. I would trade him for Hinrich straight up if the salaries were equal but anything more than that is way too much especially at this stage.

It's not fair to say we need a better coach. Woody said it best, we need better players or at least a leading actor. Joe was right with this team. He said this team is solid but not great. We all knew it but it's troublesome that the players know it for a fact too.

I have to respect their effort. They have went out and earn their paychecks this season.