39 replies to this topic

[jy23]

AHF, on 24 August 2009 - 09:17 AM, said:

Are you arguing that Jameer Nelson should be posting up Aldridge since simple physics shows he can move the guy around in the post?

Here are the numbers I consider key to this:

Nelson
6'0''
190 lbs

Aldridge
6'11''
240 lbs

Nelson has the stronger arms but he isn't going to throw even a skinny guy like Aldridge around who weighs 50 lbs and more than 25% more than he does.

That goes even more for guys like Al Jefferson 265 lbs, DeAndre Jordan 255 lbs, etc.

That is the physics I am talking about.  When I actually lifted weights there were taller guys who I could do more sets than but who I wouldn't hope to throw around because they just outweighed me by a good amount.

* * * *

On the guards v. taller players issue, I am 100% on board with the statement that I bought into a myth that was wrong on this.  After looking at the numbers, you definitely see more of a correlation between height and good bench numbers than I expected to see (although not in all cases as guys like Toney Douglas and Will Bynum show).

* * * *

On Teague now being asked to guard NBA SGs while Crawford takes the PGs, I will believe this is an effective defensive backcourt when I see it because I don't think Teague will be able to handle many NBA SGs other than perhaps combo guys like Stucky, Gordon, etc.

You completely missed what i was saying.  I said I AGREE with your point I just had to correct you on saying basic physics supports that point.  I used examples of players that we all know instead of using something like the density of rocks, I thought you would get the point better that way.  It was a science comparison, i think you knew that

[AHF]

jy21, on 24 August 2009 - 11:52 AM, said:

You completely missed what i was saying.  I said I AGREE with your point I just had to correct you on saying basic physics supports that point.  I used examples of players that we all know instead of using something like the density of rocks, I thought you would get the point better that way.  It was a science comparison, i think you knew that

I just think that focusing on density ignores the more important characteristic of total mass.  A dense rock weighing 40 pounds is easier to move than a less dense mattress weighing 60 pounds.  I may still be missing what you were saying.

[jerrywest]

AHF, on 24 August 2009 - 01:21 PM, said:

I just think that focusing on density ignores the more important characteristic of total mass.  A dense rock weighing 40 pounds is easier to move than a less dense mattress weighing 60 pounds.  I may still be missing what you were saying.

Two players are not two balloons colliding.   The weight is not the absolute determinant because they are actually pushing off the ground.    They push the ground with their feet and push other players with their hands and body. A strong player can use the grounds mass through his strong body much better than a weaker player.   A slightly heavier player can't push around Teague easily because Teague is unusually strong.   The same heavy player could push around Davin Harris much more easily.  

The skinny sophomore Dennis Rodman guarded Magic Johnson, Kareem and Worthy in the same game very well, because he knew how to push the ground.

[AHF]

I don't remember seeing Rodman matched up with Kareem but he is roughly the same size as Magic and Worthy.

You are talking about a 15 pound difference and maybe 1-2 inches in height -- not the 75 pounds and 10 inches Nelson is giving up to Jefferson.  I have no doubt the strength helps but when you are talking about a difference of less than 10% in body weight with Rodman and a greater than 25% difference with Nelson then I think you are dealing with a whole different scale and the matchups are not really similarly situated.

But this is getting a bit hypothetical and far afield at this point.  If Teague can guard SGs, I'll be thrilled.  Surprised but thrilled.

[jy23]

AHF, on 24 August 2009 - 01:21 PM, said:

I just think that focusing on density ignores the more important characteristic of total mass.  A dense rock weighing 40 pounds is easier to move than a less dense mattress weighing 60 pounds.  I may still be missing what you were saying.

When you're trying to carry it yes, but the initial movement is harder with the more dense item.  This is getting to educational here so b4 we go any further I'll just say that once again I agree with your first point, I went after the science part not the basketball point.  I also am not convinced that he can guard these bigger 2 guards just because of his strength, like i said b4 I'm much more impressed by his quickness than anything.

[jerrywest]

AHF, on 24 August 2009 - 02:49 PM, said:

I don't remember seeing Rodman matched up with Kareem but he is roughly the same size as Magic and Worthy.

You are talking about a 15 pound difference and maybe 1-2 inches in height -- not the 75 pounds and 10 inches Nelson is giving up to Jefferson.  I have no doubt the strength helps but when you are talking about a difference of less than 10% in body weight with Rodman and a greater than 25% difference with Nelson then I think you are dealing with a whole different scale and the matchups are not really similarly situated.

But this is getting a bit hypothetical and far afield at this point.  If Teague can guard SGs, I'll be thrilled.  Surprised but thrilled.

In his early years Rodman was no where close to the weights of magic and Worthy.

Who is arguing that Nelson could guard Jefferson?   Strength helps, but it can't make up for significant height difference.

[AHF]

7'' inch difference between Kareem and Rodman which makes me think Rodman probably guarded Kareem for a very limited window of time, but I don't remember that era and matchup well enough to know if it was Rodman, Lambeer, etc. on Kareem most of the time.

I think pushing the ground only gets you so far when the opponent has a significant edge in height and mass.

[jerrywest]

AHF, on 28 August 2009 - 09:15 AM, said:

7'' inch difference between Kareem and Rodman which makes me think Rodman probably guarded Kareem for a very limited window of time, but I don't remember that era and matchup well enough to know if it was Rodman, Lambeer, etc. on Kareem most of the time.

I think pushing the ground only gets you so far when the opponent has a significant edge in height and mass.

Kareem was 40 year old and shooting 40% on his skyhooks.    Lambeer and Edward guarded him most of the time.  Even Mahorn and Sally.   Rodman guarded all players on occasion and was successful on all.     At the end of the day, Lakers won and James Worthy was the finals MVP.    Adrian Dantley was detroit's starting sf.

lets go back to the original point.  Nobody said teague could guard someone much taller than him.  He just has the strength to guard people who are a little taller than him.  Crawford is too weak to guard even the shorter stronger players.  

We have Al/Joe Smith who play bigger than their size.

We have Marvin/Zaza/Crawford who play smaller than their size.  

Teague's length, athleticism and strength suggests he has the capability to play bigger than his size.   Unlike Devin Harris.  That's all I am hoping for.

[AHF]

If you give Harris Teague's strength, they are virtually identical on measurables.  I don't think a stronger Harris can guard SGs.  That is my underlying point here, but I hope you are right because by extension you could also run lineups with Bibby/Teague if that were true and that would give the team a lot of flexibility.  I expect, however, Teague to be limited to guarding PGs or severely undersized combo guards like Jason Terry and Ben Gordon.

[jerrywest]

I am officially surrendering my claim that Teague's ceiling is Devin Harris. Teague's ceiling is anything he wants to become.