41 replies to this topic

[Diesel]

niremetal, on 15 March 2010 - 01:01 PM, said:

Actually, one would expect someone to score more when they play for worse teams.  Considering that's how, you know, it pretty much always works in the NBA.

And Jamal is shooting a higher percentage from deep because teams leave him open from deep MUCH more than they do JJ.  And JJ draws double teams way, way more than Jamal.  And doesn't the fact that Jamal plays more often against the other team's bench kinda explain why he scores slightly more per minute this year?  Pretty much everyone except you and a couple other JJ haters have said or at least recognized how having JJ around has allowed Jamal to be more efficient than he ever was before.

You're beyond laughable, dude.  You're incapable of making a post without hating on JJ.  Every post you make just hammers home that you have nothing to offer but BS to back up your hate.

I would agree that JJ draws doubles, but he rarely passes to Jamal.  Jamal gets a lot of open look from passes from Smoove and Bibby.  The truth of the matter is that we have good scoring and JJ is a part of that.  A big part.  Until our bigs learn to score for themselves, we are kinda dependent on JJ... but if we were to loses JJ, I think Jamal would step up as a better playmaker.  He has never had this much usable talent around him.

[exodus]

HawkWeisErrr, on 15 March 2010 - 02:23 PM, said:

I don't know what you guys are arguing but let me clarify my position.  

Jamal Crawford scores more points per minute than Joe Johnson does.  Jamal Crawford shoots a higher percentage from behind the 3 point line than Joe Johnson does.  Jamal Crawford draws more fouls than Joe Johnson does.  Jamal Crawford shoots better from the FT line than Joe Johnson does.  

Based on the above facts and from watching the games, my opinion is that Crawford is a better scorer than Joe Johnson is.

Take a look at all the years he didn't play next to JJ. What do Crawford's percentages look like then? Crawford is a career 40.8% shooter.

[niremetal]

Diesel, on 15 March 2010 - 06:53 PM, said:

I would agree that JJ draws doubles, but he rarely passes to Jamal.  Jamal gets a lot of open look from passes from Smoove and Bibby.  The truth of the matter is that we have good scoring and JJ is a part of that.  A big part.  Until our bigs learn to score for themselves, we are kinda dependent on JJ... but if we were to loses JJ, I think Jamal would step up as a better playmaker.  He has never had this much usable talent around him.

Is there a site that shows assists from/to individual players?  Because if there is, I would be truly shocked if there was any statistical evidence of JJ not passing to Jamal.  I think that's just another instance of people seeing what they want to see.  Against Detroit, one of JJ's 5 assists was to Crawford, and all 4 of his other assists came while Crawford was off the floor.  Against Wash, 1 of his 5 assists was also to Crawford.  And the game before that (NY), same thing.  And the game before that, 2 of his 4 assists were to Crawford.  And I'm not gonna spend anymore time on that.  Seriously, I don't think JJ passes to Crawford any less to anyone else.

And minus JJ, our offensive talent outside of Crawford is seriously no better than what he had for most of his previous career.  The number of open looks he'd get without JJ would go down, and so would his shooting percentage.

Fewer points while shooting a lower percentage from the field and with a worse Ast:TO ratio while playing for worse teams.  Seriously.

[northcyde]

niremetal, on 15 March 2010 - 09:20 PM, said:

Is there a site that shows assists from/to individual players?  Because if there is, I would be truly shocked if there was any statistical evidence of JJ not passing to Jamal.  I think that's just another instance of people seeing what they want to see.  Against Detroit, one of JJ's 5 assists was to Crawford, and all 4 of his other assists came while Crawford was off the floor.  Against Wash, 1 of his 5 assists was also to Crawford.  And the game before that (NY), same thing.  And the game before that, 2 of his 4 assists were to Crawford.  And I'm not gonna spend anymore time on that.  Seriously, I don't think JJ passes to Crawford any less to anyone else.

And minus JJ, our offensive talent outside of Crawford is seriously no better than what he had for most of his previous career.  The number of open looks he'd get without JJ would go down, and so would his shooting percentage.

Fewer points while shooting a lower percentage from the field and with a worse Ast:TO ratio while playing for worse teams.  Seriously.

Just gonna do an eye test from the play-by-play to see how many of JJ's assists have gone to whomever.  I'll guess without even looking, that JJ has 6 assists to Crawford since the break.



Bibby: 16 ( 9 threes )
Smoove: 15
Crawford: 15 ( 10 threes )
Horford:  7
Marvin:  7
Evans:  3
Zaza:  2
Teague:  1

LOL @ 6 . . . so much for JJ not passing to Crawford.   I knew he was passing to Crawford lately, but not that much.  And I didn't realize that he's assisted on all of those three's by Crawford.  

JJ always passes to Bibby for open shots.  And I knew he passed to Smoove a lot.  He passes to Marvin quite a bit too.  Marvin just doesn't make the shot.

[northcyde]

northcyde, on 16 March 2010 - 01:40 AM, said:

Just gonna do an eye test from the play-by-play to see how many of JJ's assists have gone to whomever.  I'll guess without even looking, that JJ has 6 assists to Crawford since the break.



Bibby: 16 ( 9 threes )
Smoove: 15
Crawford: 15 ( 10 threes )
Horford:  7
Marvin:  7
Evans:  3
Zaza:  2
Teague:  1

LOL @ 6 . . . so much for JJ not passing to Crawford.   I knew he was passing to Crawford lately, but not that much.  And I didn't realize that he's assisted on all of those three's by Crawford.  

JJ always passes to Bibby for open shots.  And I knew he passed to Smoove a lot.  He passes to Marvin quite a bit too.  Marvin just doesn't make the shot.

This is also a by-product of the ISO-JOE.  When JJ is doing all of that dribbling and sizing his man up, he's surveying the court at the same time.  If the double team comes, he's usually passing to an open shooter.

[Crank]

northcyde, on 16 March 2010 - 01:40 AM, said:

Just gonna do an eye test from the play-by-play to see how many of JJ's assists have gone to whomever.  I'll guess without even looking, that JJ has 6 assists to Crawford since the break.



Bibby: 16 ( 9 threes )
Smoove: 15
Crawford: 15 ( 10 threes )
Horford:  7
Marvin:  7
Evans:  3
Zaza:  2
Teague:  1

LOL @ 6 . . . so much for JJ not passing to Crawford.   I knew he was passing to Crawford lately, but not that much.  And I didn't realize that he's assisted on all of those three's by Crawford.  

JJ always passes to Bibby for open shots.  And I knew he passed to Smoove a lot.  He passes to Marvin quite a bit too.  Marvin just doesn't make the shot.

That amounts to about one per game which is not alot . Although I must admit that JJ has been getting better at looking for Crawford outside the three  but at the start of the season he was not even thinking about passing it. ,He should actually have more considering Crawford is shooting like 49% from three this month

[Diesel]

Crank, on 16 March 2010 - 02:36 AM, said:

That amounts to about one per game which is not alot . Although I must admit that JJ has been getting better at looking for Crawford outside the three  but at the start of the season he was not even thinking about passing it. ,He should actually have more considering Crawford is shooting like 49% from three this month

This is what I'm looking at also.. about 1 per game.


Moreover, the tally shows that 22% of Joe's passes go to Crawford.  Some may like the distribution, but at the same time it shows that Craw's mealticket is not really Joe.

Not all of Joe's passes turnout as assists because I know he throws a lot more to Marvin and Bibby than what is tabulated.

[DJlaysitup]

One per D.

[northcyde]

Considering that the guy is the primary scorer, and averages a little less than 5 assists per game, one assist a game to Crawford is actually right on target.   And that assist is predicated on Jamal making the shot.

[northcyde]

Diesel, on 16 March 2010 - 04:25 AM, said:

This is what I'm looking at also.. about 1 per game.


Moreover, the tally shows that 22% of Joe's passes go to Crawford.  Some may like the distribution, but at the same time it shows that Craw's mealticket is not really Joe.

Not all of Joe's passes turnout as assists because I know he throws a lot more to Marvin and Bibby than what is tabulated.

Craw's "meal ticket" is himself.  It's just that with JJ on the floor, he's not going to see nearly the double teams that JJ does.   JJ, and not Crawford, is the guy that is most likely to get into the paint and take a shot, so opposing teams pay more attention to JJ.   When they do that, it enables Crawford to go one on one on most occasions.

[niremetal]

northcyde, on 16 March 2010 - 12:04 PM, said:

Considering that the guy is the primary scorer, and averages a little less than 5 assists per game, one assist a game to Crawford is actually right on target.   And that assist is predicated on Jamal making the shot.

Also, once you subtract JJ's ppg from our team's total ppg (102.3 - 21.5), Jamal scores 22% of our team's non-JJ points (17.5 / 80.8 = 21.6%, to be exact).  So if 22% of JJ's assists go to Jamal, that is EXACTLY the proportion one would expect given our team's scoring distribution.  As I said, I think people just see what they want to see.

Quote

Craw's "meal ticket" is himself. It's just that with JJ on the floor, he's not going to see nearly the double teams that JJ does. JJ, and not Crawford, is the guy that is most likely to get into the paint and take a shot, so opposing teams pay more attention to JJ. When they do that, it enables Crawford to go one on one on most occasions.

Exactly.  No one said that JJ is Crawford's "meal ticket" in the sense of JJ creating Crawford's offense.  Just that having JJ on the floor has opened up things a LOT for Crawford compared to past years.

Edited by niremetal, 16 March 2010 - 12:24 PM.

[Diesel]

northcyde, on 16 March 2010 - 12:06 PM, said:

Craw's "meal ticket" is himself.  It's just that with JJ on the floor, he's not going to see nearly the double teams that JJ does.   JJ, and not Crawford, is the guy that is most likely to get into the paint and take a shot, so opposing teams pay more attention to JJ.   When they do that, it enables Crawford to go one on one on most occasions.

I would say more Josh than JJ.  As Josh learns how to handle the ball better (and he has been better this season) he will be a guy for us to key our offense from.  He will draw doubles because scoring in the paint is more practical than from 3.  Still, if JJ were not here, I expect Jamal to handle the ball more (unless we got a PG in return).