21 replies to this topic

[Diesel]

Brokentree, on 20 August 2010 - 12:02 PM, said:

.

Can be read as "I have been reading that is some people's opinions we should trade Jamal for a variety of different reasons."  The word opin is either short for opinion or opine.  Divers is the basically the same as diverse.  I had a hard time reading it as well but with minimal effort I think I understood it fine.

As for Jamal.  I like the guy on the court and the guy always seems to impress in his interviews.  I thought the same thing about Bibby before last year.  There just isn't enough money to go around to be able to pay a 6th man that much money.  If we could get him to sign on for 3 years 20 million then I'd be ok with it.  Anything more in years or money I think is too much.  He doesn't have good defense to fall back on as he ages so when he does start to fade offensively its going to hurt his worth that much more.  That being said.  I rank Horford's contract to be way more of a concern then Jamal's.  I believe Horford can only get better where as we can only hope that Jamal doesn't degrade.

I think it's too early to start talking about money.  The new CBA has not been drafted.  We don't know what it will include so there's no need to try and make decisions based on money.

2nd.  We don't know if ASG will find a new partner with big pockets.  They are looking.

3rd.  To call Jamal a 6th man is really disrespectful.  On any other team but Woody's, he's a starter.  On Woody's team, we has to justify Marvin being paid starter money.

Right now, Jamal is not that far away from being as good as Joe.  It's disrespectful to hear people say " he's just a 6th man" or "what will we do about J Craw 2"  etc.  JCraw is probably our second best player.  I want to see how LD utilizes him.

[Brokentree]

Diesel, on 21 August 2010 - 04:51 AM, said:

I think it's too early to start talking about money.  The new CBA has not been drafted.  We don't know what it will include so there's no need to try and make decisions based on money.

2nd.  We don't know if ASG will find a new partner with big pockets.  They are looking.

3rd.  To call Jamal a 6th man is really disrespectful.  On any other team but Woody's, he's a starter.  On Woody's team, we has to justify Marvin being paid starter money.

Right now, Jamal is not that far away from being as good as Joe.  It's disrespectful to hear people say " he's just a 6th man" or "what will we do about J Craw 2"  etc.  JCraw is probably our second best player.  I want to see how LD utilizes him.

Don't use your values to decide whether other people are disrespecting something.  Absolutely no disrespect is given on Jamal being the 6th man.  I personally don't think its anything he should feel disrespected about.  I feel its a good role for him and am proud that he was voted the best at it this last season.  You can even say that I respect him more for fulfilling that role without some massive athletes ego thinking its disrespectful to him.  I'll respect him even more if he signs a new contract with a 30% paycut just so that he can remain with the Hawks.  He plays as many minutes or more then the "starters" so its really a mute point anyways.

The team always comes first.  I like Jamal, but I like the Hawks more.  The idea that we can't afford to pay our 6th man ,aka Jamal, more then 20m over 3 years is based on the fact that we have 50m in payroll next year not including Horford and not including Jamal (and not including 5 other yet to be named players).  We just can not afford to pay any more for a player that is not also a defensive threat.  

This board is slow during this time of year for obvious reasons.  Are we going to compound that by not posting anything with a number in it until the new CBA is done?  Shouldn't it be ok to value a persons worth to a team based on what we currently know?  I think people are smart enough to know that a new CBA can potentially change everything we are currently talking about.

While I am interested in seeing how Drew uses Jamal this season I'm more interested in how he uses the whole team.  I'm especially curious to see Marvin. This year is his last chance in my eyes.  Woodson is gone.  He has now officially run out of excuses.  If he really wants to "help the team" he should start by playing some offense.  I also want to see how Teague responds to the offense.  I think Teague and Marvin are our biggest x factors.  We can kind of imagine what we'll get out of our other players regardless of the offensive system but these two are a huge question mark and I think will have a big influence on the teams season.

[Diesel]

Brokentree, on 21 August 2010 - 03:32 PM, said:

Don't use your values to decide whether other people are disrespecting something.  Absolutely no disrespect is given on Jamal being the 6th man.  I personally don't think its anything he should feel disrespected about.  I feel its a good role for him and am proud that he was voted the best at it this last season.  You can even say that I respect him more for fulfilling that role without some massive athletes ego thinking its disrespectful to him.  I'll respect him even more if he signs a new contract with a 30% paycut just so that he can remain with the Hawks.  He plays as many minutes or more then the "starters" so its really a mute point anyways.

Alright... with all you just said, put yourself in his shoes....


You're Jamal Crawford.
All your life, you have been the best basketball player on the court.
You come to Atlanta and are asked to come off the bench because we are starting Marvin Williams. (BTW, Marvin Idolizes you too).
You do it. No complaining.  You have a one of your better years off the bench.   As production goes, per 36, this is your best year.
As a matter of fact, as production goes, per 36, you are the best player on the Hawks team.
You win the 6th man of the year by a landslide.
You show up in the playoffs when Joe Johnson disappears.
You just watched Joe Johnson get paid a max contract.
Yet, there's people saying that you take a 30% pay cut for the sake of the team?
and
That you're more valuable as trade bait?
and
That you're just a bench player and that you should be proud to be a bench player, it's not disrespectful.

This is the deal, it's not about team until every player is satisfied with his lot.  If Craw is asking for an extension, i would say that that is team first.  He wants to make this the last team he plays for.  He has nothing but love for this team and has said it on many occassions.  What you are saying is like saying that D Wade ought to come off the bench so that Lebron can play the 2 and Mike Miller can start. While I'm sure that Dwade would be the 6th man of the year easily, that doesn't make him a 6th man.  Craw being our 6th man was nothing but a sacrifice on his part and now people are trying to make that a permanent thing.. as if he's not one of the better players in the league.

[HawksFan87]

Lol . Jamal almost as good as Joe??? Jamal our 2nd best player??? LMFAO. Those comments are both hilarious. Never in a million years wil they ever come true. Jamal is a one dimensional chucker, whose defense is almost as bad as Mike Bibby's. I like Jamal at times but he is just not worth the money.

[Brokentree]

You seem rather stuck on the idea that Jamal as the 6th man is somehow proof that he is considered to be less important than the 5 starters.  Jamal plays the 4th most minutes off all the Hawks players.  His main qualities are that he is clutch, can generate his own scoring chances, and is an interchangeable part that can sub in at both the sg and pg positions.  Three qualities that are all best utilized by a 6th man.  He would be worth big money if he could defend better and he keeps his shot selection improved like this last year.  

The fact is we can not afford to pay him what you seem to think he is worth (though you probably won't tell anyone what you think he should be paid until the new CBA is done, get back to us in a year and a half).

Lets continue with the "put yourself in his shoes" game

I have been playing on bad teams ever since I joined the NBA and finally land on a winner.  Not only did the team play well but I played well in a new role that I've never tried before and got praised.. alot... for my character.  Heck, I even won an award.  I should thank someone for the opportunity.

I had my first playoff experience in the NBA ever.  It was fun and I'd like to do it more often.  I think the Hawks will be able to play in the playoffs alot and I'd like to resign.  If I ask for too much we might lost some of our other players though which could make us worse.

I'm going into the last year of my contract and I'm making 10m.  I'm going to be 31 when next season ends and this will probably be my last chance for a contract in the 3-4 year range.  A new CBA is coming and there is a good chance of a lockout next year.  I want an extension now but it will never happen unless I'm willing to sacrifice some cash for security.

[Diesel]

Brokentree, on 21 August 2010 - 10:51 PM, said:

You seem rather stuck on the idea that Jamal as the 6th man is somehow proof that he is considered to be less important than the 5 starters.  Jamal plays the 4th most minutes off all the Hawks players.  His main qualities are that he is clutch, can generate his own scoring chances, and is an interchangeable part that can sub in at both the sg and pg positions.  Three qualities that are all best utilized by a 6th man.  He would be worth big money if he could defend better and he keeps his shot selection improved like this last year.  

The fact is we can not afford to pay him what you seem to think he is worth (though you probably won't tell anyone what you think he should be paid until the new CBA is done, get back to us in a year and a half).

Lets continue with the "put yourself in his shoes" game

I have been playing on bad teams ever since I joined the NBA and finally land on a winner.  Not only did the team play well but I played well in a new role that I've never tried before and got praised.. alot... for my character.  Heck, I even won an award.  I should thank someone for the opportunity.

I had my first playoff experience in the NBA ever.  It was fun and I'd like to do it more often.  I think the Hawks will be able to play in the playoffs alot and I'd like to resign.  If I ask for too much we might lost some of our other players though which could make us worse.

I'm going into the last year of my contract and I'm making 10m.  I'm going to be 31 when next season ends and this will probably be my last chance for a contract in the 3-4 year range.  A new CBA is coming and there is a good chance of a lockout next year.  I want an extension now but it will never happen unless I'm willing to sacrifice some cash for security.

Continue farther....

The dude I'm playing with, star of the team, Joe Johnson is 29 and he just got paid a contract starting at 16 Million.
The dude who is starting name Marvin Williams who can't hold my jock strap and can't beat my sister is getting paid 8.5 Million a year.
These guys were shaky after game 4 of the playoffs.
I was the main reason we got past Milwaukee.

Pivotal Game 6...

I was the high scorer.  I led the team.  Had they still had Acie Law and Speedy Claxton, they would have been out in 6 in the first round.  Look at Marvin with 29 minutes played and 2 points.

Game 7...
Joe and Marvin scoring 8 points on 29% shooting...  Who lead this team in scoring?

Why should I be the one who has to sacrifice?  The team should show me that they want me by giving me an extension and dropping the dead weight like Marvin Williams. Is it fair to ask me to take below Market value and then have to come in a play next to a guy who isn't worthy of  half of his salary?   Most of my career, I have been a first option but now I'm being asked to beg to stay on the team and be paid like a 6th man?
People like to compare me to Ginobili as a player who is starter quality but comes off the bench.  But check this out... I'm younger than this dude. I'm less injured that this dude.  I had a better year than this dude.  I have always made less than this dude.  I beat him out fr 6th man...  BUT his team just gave him an extension averaging 12.66 Million per year.

Yet some are still saying that even though I'm better than he, I'm supposed to take a pay cut?

[lethalweapon3]

Who's Court???

~lw3

Edited by lethalweapon3, 22 August 2010 - 01:51 PM.