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Josh Smith and Al Horford scouting report from Supes.

al horford josh smith horford boss smoove smith all star defense anchor PnR

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#1 Joker

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Posted 02 December 2011 - 10:40 PM

Both are two very talented players. nbasuperstar40's profiles of both players. Please bare with me on Josh Smith. I wrote it first so it doesn’t have the best formatting but Al Horford is a great read. Properly section and what not.

Josh Smith:

Smith is one of the most talented players in the NBA. He is a supremely athletic, elite defensive player. He is our best defensive player since Mutombo. On top of that he has some solid offensive skills. He has a solid array of post moves. Decent footwork in the low post. An up-tempo player with great ability to run the floor. Smart defensive player. Can play PF and SF. Can defend the post at PF at a solid clip. Understanding of timing of blocks and steals is second to none for Smoove only comparable to Dwight. In fact, he is a lot like Dwight on defense. Dwight just has more athletic ability, great size, has elite defensive bbiq, and a better help side defense. Has elite recovery ability when beaten on defense. Processes excellent speed for his position and runs like deer. Rarely is in foul trouble. People do not realize how discipline Smith is on defense. Clutch defender. Smith plays with a strong fire and passion for the game.

Smith has talent in bunches on offense too. He passes the ball as well as any low post player in the NBA. He has very good court vision from the post and the top of the key. Very good jumper within 15 feet. Understands where to be on offensive plays and where everyone else should be as well. He really excels in a full court offense. He is a talented rebounder by his timing and god given athletic ability. Very good playmaker. Very good hands. Strong finisher when on the move. Good second and third step. Smith definitely has an impact on the game. Smith really has room to grow in terms of being a better decision maker. He still has untapped potential.

Smith has potential to really put up great numbers for teams that aren't so good. He has limitations that prevent him to getting to that next level as a player. He has low offensive bbiq. He lacks movement in the half court when it's not called in the play. He lacks innovation when he doesn't have the ball in his hands on offense. He lacks understanding of his limitations. He does not know his limitations. He has slew feet which hinders his perimeter man defense. This not a killer for his defense. Lebron James and Dwight Howard also have slew feet but Dwight doesn’t guard perimeter guys. He mainly anchors from the low post and Lebron has so many tools and he is so stronger and his ability to recover is great he make hide it. His lack of position and size really affects his overall ability even with great talents. Smith lacks the ability to create his own offense at a very good rate. He can create his offense at a solid rate. Rarely boxes out for rebounds. Poor all around ball handler. It prevents him from reaching his potential on so many levels. From creating his shot, beating people off the dribble, leading the fast break and playing SF full time. Has trouble getting position on the blocks due to his size. Most PF’s who are All Star level or higher have an explosive first step that rivals guards. For someone with his speed, you expect better.

Smith has severe issues in terms of his impact. He has the ability to impact every game he plays in more ways than most players and more so anyone on the Hawks. He has the innate ability to keep the Hawks in games as well as lose them. He can go through mental withdrawal during games and never come out of them. He can have an attitude issue. When frustrated, he will lose composure. This is quite different from players like Dwight Howard who also have attitude issues. He can still positively impact the game with his; Smith actually cannot when he has issues.

He also is inconsistent to an extreme level but I really feel that it has to do with his mental state than his ability. Just because of his flaws, he will always have consistency issues. But mental flaws are there with Smith. This may cause some teams to fear that he’s a guy you can have as a major part of a championship team. Some may view him as a 6th man and not a starter for a contender but I disagree. I feel he can be a major part of a title team and even a second option given a coach who willing to put up with Smith and a PG who can create his offense and run a full court offense full time. Steve Nash is prime example of that PG.

Smith is a very good player. He can have elite impact as well as NBA bench player impact any given game. He is at best as the #1 option on a bad team or 6th man on a contender. He would be even better than is level if he was able to play with an uptempo playmaker at PG who plays fast like Steve Nash. Then he could actually have elite impact more so than not. Needs to play next to a true center who rebounds well and stays around the basket a lot as well. His defense is a good enough reason why he would start every game for almost all NBA teams.

Josh Smith grades:

Shooting: 6.2

Interior Scoring: 8.4

Attacking the basket/Slashing: 7.0

Athleticism: 9.8

Rebounding: 8.9

Defense: 9.9

Intelligence: 7.1

Scoring: 8.1

Playmaking: 8.0

Decision Making: 5.7

Intangibles: 5.1

Passing: 8.7

Ball Handling: 5.7

Offensive Movement: 5.9

Help Side Defense: 9.8

Blocking: 9.4

Stealing: 8.5

Man Defense: 7.0

Strength: 7.9

Speed: 8.9

Overall: 156/20= 7.80

Examples:
5-5.5- Fringe NBA player (Collins, Wilkins)
5.6-6.0- NBA bench player (Zaza, Jamal C.)
6.1-6.5- Role player (Marvin healthy, K. Martin, Felton)
6.6-7.0- Proven Starter (Bogut, Nene, Billups, E. Gordon)
7.1-7.5- Fringe All Star (Granger, Ellis, Curry, Z-Bo, Love)
7.6-8.0- All Star (Horford, Smith, Joe, LMA, Nash, KG, Rondo, Bosh, B. Griffin)
8.1-8.5- Superstar (Dirk, CP3, Deron)
8.6-9- GOAT status (Kobe, Dwight, Lebron) only them currently have that status.

Posted Image


Al Horford

After the first small write-up, I seemed extremely scatterbrained. I will section this one.

Offense-
Strengths: Very good mid range jumper. In fact, when he is open, he has an elite mid range jumper. Good ball handler. He can beat bigger or slower defenders on the dribble. Good speed for his position. Has excellent foot speed for his size. Very good athlete. It gives him a major advantage when bursting to the basket from the perimeter from a screen. Very high Offensive bbiq. Has very good passing ability out of the post. Decent court vision. Boxes out at a solid rate. Very good offensive rebounder. Has potential to be elite at it. Good instincts in terms of the offense and plays within himself. Sneaky quick for his position. Here is where he truly excels, movement. He has excellent innovative skills. He will break the offense if he sees something open that wasn’t there. Has elite movement moving around the court. Is a very tough matchup for any defender because he is always moving. He is extremely aggressive setting picks. Knows how to set clean picks and is quick enough to get open after the pick. Strong finisher. Excellent Hands. Elite motor. Can play several positions on offense and is versatile. He second and third step is good. Get position in the post at a good clip. Has a vocal presence. Processes very good intangibles and still has room to grow. Excellent in terms of attacking the basket after setting picks. Has a strong desire to win.

Weaknesses: Al cannot create his own shot. He’s just not talented enough to do so. He doesn’t have great low post skills. Solid low post skills and can command a double team but can be stopped by a good defender on the blocks. Has trouble shooting when he isn’t open. This is not unusual for most NBA players but for an All Star talent it is. Decent first step for his position. This is something where he differs from most studs. Most PF’s who are All Star level or higher have an explosive first step that rivals guards. For someone with his footwork, you expect better. He second and third step is good. Not aggressive enough with his offense. He is willing to take a back seat and when he forces his offense, it looks even worst. Not much of a playmaker. Is strong as an ox. Could grow in terms of attacking the basket when he is not using PnR’s. Average to say the least as a NBA player. Was strong at it in college.

Defense-

Strengths: Elite defensive bbiq. This really makes him tough even when out of position. His excellent footwork makes him such a multi-purpose defender. He has at times defended all five positions. His quickness keeps him in position when the offensive player has a good skill set of moves. Very good post defender. Excellent rebounder and has move for improvement especially given his current situation in Atlanta. Is solid at shot blocking. Good recovery ability. Very good athlete and that helps him as well. Elite team defender. Rarely commits silly fouls. Clutch defender.

Weaknesses: Not much of a help side defender, in fact he’s not that good at it. Can get into early foul trouble. He does struggle with bigger players who are very talented. He can be beaten by screens on occasion. While he is a great man defender, he can struggle to defend the PnR at times. This really didn’t happen much under Hinrich as much as Bibby. I wonder if this was just Bibby fault since he is a horrible defender.

Al Horford grades:

Shooting: 8.5

Interior Scoring: 7.6

Attacking the basket/Slashing: 7.0

Athleticism: 8.8

Rebounding: 9.1

Defense: 9.3

Intelligence: 9.3

Scoring: 7.9

Playmaking: 6.0

Decision Making: 9.1

Intangibles: 8.8

Passing: 8.0

Ball Handling: 7.0

Offensive Movement: 10

Help Side Defense: 5.9

Blocking: 7.4

Stealing: 7.2

Man Defense: 8.5

Strength: 8.8

Speed: 8.0

Overall: 162.2/20=8.11


Horford grades came out slightly higher but with his current personnel and lack of PG, he really doesn’t have a chance to reach is potential at the moment. Smith grades were very different. He had more strengths than Horford but had more weaknesses and several on them were severe weaknesses. Personally both are two of the best players in the NBA.

#2 TheNorthCydeRises

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Posted 03 December 2011 - 02:11 AM

Your ratings are WAAAAAY too high. And I think you know this.

If both Smith and Horford were that good, we'd be in the NBA Finals by now, or at least the East Finals. That would give us 3 legit all-stars + a guy in Jamal that can play at an all-star level at any given notice.


Josh Smith grades:

Shooting: 6.2 5.7 ( he shot pretty good last year, but he's perennially one of the worst jumpshooters in the league )
Interior Scoring: 8.4 7.1 ( if he were that good on the interior, he'd go there more often )
Attacking the basket/Slashing: 7.0
Athleticism: 9.8
Rebounding: 8.9 7.6 ( the fact that he doesn't box out means that he can't be a 9 rebounder )
Defense: 9.9 8.1 ( he can't be a 9.9 if his on the ball defense is suspect )
Intelligence: 7.1
Scoring: 8.1 7.2
Playmaking: 8.0 8.4 ( for the position he plays, he's actually very good )
Decision Making: 5.7
Intangibles: 5.1 6.3 ( his intangibles aren't that low. Gotta factor in offense and defense )
Passing: 8.7 ( for the position he plays, I agree )
Ball Handling: 5.7 6.9 ( he's just careless with the ball, his actual ball handling is decent )
Offensive Movement: 5.9
Help Side Defense: 9.8 8.5 ( gets caught watching the ball at times, like all the Hawks )
Blocking: 9.4 8.6 ( shot blocking still very good, just not elite anymore )
Stealing: 8.5 7.5 ( good steal rate for a PF )
Man Defense: 7.0
Strength: 7.9 6.9 ( if his strength was almost an 8, he'd be willing to play on the inside more )
Speed: 8.9 9.2

Overall: 149 / 20 = 7.45




Al Horford grades:

Shooting: 8.5 9.4 ( outside of the playoffs, he's an excellent shooter )
Interior Scoring: 7.6 6.9 ( definitely needs work )
Attacking the basket/Slashing: 7.0 6.5 ( Smith is a better slasher, Al would rather shoot the jumper )
Athleticism: 8.8
Rebounding: 9.1 8.2 ( a 9 to me means 'elite rebounder'. Al isn't an elite rebounder . . yet )
Defense: 9.3 8.1 ( he's a good defender. A 9.3 would mean an elite defender )
Intelligence: 9.3 8.5
Scoring: 7.9
Playmaking: 6.0
Decision Making: 9.1 8.5
Intangibles: 8.8
Passing: 8.0
Ball Handling: 7.0
Offensive Movement: 10 7.8 ( no way is Al a 10 in this area )
Help Side Defense: 5.9
Blocking: 7.4 5.5 ( for a center/PF, this is a very weak part of his game )
Stealing: 7.2 6.7 ( not a guy who gets a lot of steals )
Man Defense: 8.5 7.5 ( he's a solid man defender, but not a lockdown one )
Strength: 8.8
Speed: 8.0

Overall: 152.8 / 20 = 7.64

#3 DJlaysitup

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Posted 03 December 2011 - 03:06 AM

Al Horford shoots well when he isn't tasked with playing hard against a big center. Josh Smith takes over games when he is sober and want's to.

#4 Randy

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Posted 03 December 2011 - 08:12 AM

Josh would be an allstar if his 3 pointer would fall more often. Last year he did improve it, but its still usually more of a liability than an asset. Last year he shot 33% from 3 - his best year ever. He pulled it up about 3-4% from prior years. (He shot 0-7 the year before when Woody convinced him to stop. 30% the year before that.) If he improves another 3% - he's at 36%. So that's starting to look pretty good. Now that he's lost weight - this could be his best year ever.

#5 TheNorthCydeRises

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Posted 03 December 2011 - 08:45 AM

And using this criteria, I'll do Joe JohnsonShooting: 7.7 ( normally higher )Interior Scoring: 7.6 ( Hawks best post player + the floater )Attacking the basket/Slashing: 7.9 ( shoots the floater and scores in the paint )Athleticism: 8.1Rebounding: 7.1 ( normally higher )Defense: 7.9Intelligence: 8.1Scoring: 8.0 ( lack of getting to the line keeps this number down )Playmaking: 8.4Decision Making: 8.1Intangibles: 8.1Passing: 8.5Ball Handling: 9.1Offensive Movement: 7.6Help Side Defense: 7.0 ( could be better )Blocking: 5.0Stealing: 6.2Man Defense: 8.8Strength: 8.7Speed: 8.1Overall: 156 / 20 = 7.8

#6 TheNorthCydeRises

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Posted 03 December 2011 - 09:49 AM

Josh would be an allstar if his 3 pointer would fall more often. Last year he did improve it, but its still usually more of a liability than an asset. Last year he shot 33% from 3 - his best year ever. He pulled it up about 3-4% from prior years. (He shot 0-7 the year before when Woody convinced him to stop. 30% the year before that.) If he improves another 3% - he's at 36%. So that's starting to look pretty good. Now that he's lost weight - this could be his best year ever.

Josh would be an All-Star if he attacked the rim like Shawn Kemp. Instead, he falls completely in love with his jumper. Despite his elite athleticism, he diminishes how good he could be on his own, by continuing to shoot jumpers ( mainly to prove to people that he can shoot the jumper ).

Smith should be a Shawn Marion / Shawn Kemp hybrid.

Shawn Marion's best season: 2005 - 06

21.8 ppg
11.8 rebs
1.8 asst
2.0 stls
1.7 blks

52.5 FG%
80.9 FT%
33.1 3FG%


Shawn Kemp's best season: 1995 - 96

19.6 ppg
11.4 rebs
2.2 asst
1.2 stls
1.6 blks

56.1 FG%
74.7 FT%
41.7 3FG% ( only 12 attempts )



Offensively, Josh Smith could be better if he played with a Hall of Fame PG like a Gary Payton and a Steve Nash. Smith could definitely be a more effective player if he had a great passing PG to play with. But the other parts of his game, especially when it comes to rebounding, is mainly Smith's fault.

People get onto Josh because most of us KNOW he has the potential to be even better than what he is right now. But in Smith's mind, he'd rather work on becoming a better jumpshooter than a better rebounder. Could you imagine Shawn Kemp deciding that he would rather not attack the rim, but instead become a better jumpshooter?

We can't get to the next level as a team, if he wants to play that bullshid finesse game, like he's Rashard Lewis or something. It sickens some fans, knowing that this kid could be a lot better than what he is, but he refuses to get it.

And that's why I always respected the hell out of Woody. Because he knew what each and every player's strengths were, and what they needed to work on. LOL .. but now, all bets are off. Who knows what career path Josh Smith will go down now.

As of right now, the ceiling for Josh Smith is this guy. But even he in his prime was a better player than Josh. And that's mainly because he played to his strengths night in and night out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdBDOyzh8T8

#7 Joker

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Posted 04 December 2011 - 01:07 AM

@ northcyde

Thanks for the feedback but I feel my information is accurate.

@ DJ

How's everything going? We got hoops again. Posted Image

@ Randy

3pt shooting is a lost cause for Smith but the ill-advised jumpers are really what kill most about Smith. Those happen far too often.

@ North

We talked about Smith-Kemp before. While both Kemp and Smith are uptempo players the biggest difference is three things offensively.

1. Kemp has solid offensive bbiq and Smith has low offensive bbiq.
2. Kemp has big hands and can palm a basketball which gives him a great advantage when dunking on people. Smith has small hands and cannot palm a Basketball. This is one of the reason Smith rarely dunks on people unless he going in with a head of stream.
3. Kemp has solid movement while Smith has poor offensive movement.

Smith actually has more talent than Kemp but those things hold Smith back from ever being the Reignman in terms of offensive impact. I think Josh has reached his potential in a skill set form. He can still grow in terms of scoring, decision making, and rebounding.

I really believe Josh needs to be a number one option with someone to see how far he truly is. He will see how talented he is but he will see how inconsistent he is. Something tell me he hasn't excepted the blame of his share yet in Atlanta. A change of scenery would do Josh well as well as a potential reality check.

Edited by nbasuperstar40, 04 December 2011 - 01:07 AM.


#8 thecampster

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Posted 05 December 2011 - 05:10 AM

@ northcyde

Thanks for the feedback but I feel my information is accurate.

@ DJ

How's everything going? We got hoops again. Posted Image

@ Randy

3pt shooting is a lost cause for Smith but the ill-advised jumpers are really what kill most about Smith. Those happen far too often.

@ North

We talked about Smith-Kemp before. While both Kemp and Smith are uptempo players the biggest difference is three things offensively.

1. Kemp has solid offensive bbiq and Smith has low offensive bbiq.
2. Kemp has big hands and can palm a basketball which gives him a great advantage when dunking on people. Smith has small hands and cannot palm a Basketball. This is one of the reason Smith rarely dunks on people unless he going in with a head of stream.
3. Kemp has solid movement while Smith has poor offensive movement.

Smith actually has more talent than Kemp but those things hold Smith back from ever being the Reignman in terms of offensive impact. I think Josh has reached his potential in a skill set form. He can still grow in terms of scoring, decision making, and rebounding.

I really believe Josh needs to be a number one option with someone to see how far he truly is. He will see how talented he is but he will see how inconsistent he is. Something tell me he hasn't excepted the blame of his share yet in Atlanta. A change of scenery would do Josh well as well as a potential reality check.

You should listen to Northcyde.....his evals are much closer to accurate on this.

Also, Smith/Horford with Nash/Paul/etc instead of JJ = allstar appearance for both of them. Smith/Horford's production without a create first point guard is just ridiculous and goes highly under appreciated.

A solid point guard and a spot up 3pt shooting guard/small forward would be invaluable to this team. What most people haven't noticed is our lack of exterior ballhandling has created ball movement problems, not the other way around. no pg means JJ has the ball in his hands too much.

On the subject of JJ's numbers, a few of those are highly generous, namely the defensive categories....blocks/help side and man on man. for his size and strength, JJ should be a lock down defender but isn't.

#9 AHF

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Posted 05 December 2011 - 11:12 AM

Attacking the basket/Slashing: 7.9 ( shoots the floater and scores in the paint )

I would just note that I think JJ could radically improve his slashing if he would start looking for contact and trying to draw fouls instead of working to avoid contact. That is the lowest hanging fruit for JJ. For that reason, I would rate this lower.

#10 Joker

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Posted 05 December 2011 - 01:05 PM

You should listen to Northcyde.....his evals are much closer to accurate on this.Also, Smith/Horford with Nash/Paul/etc instead of JJ = allstar appearance for both of them. Smith/Horford's production without a create first point guard is just ridiculous and goes highly under appreciated.A solid point guard and a spot up 3pt shooting guard/small forward would be invaluable to this team. What most people haven't noticed is our lack of exterior ballhandling has created ball movement problems, not the other way around. no pg means JJ has the ball in his hands too much.

This really takes a lot more than just putting together numbers from what you think the players are. This means you are using a lot of film, stats, adv stats, the measurable, comments from valued sources, etc.Atlanta needs to figure out what their going to do. Are they trying to be like the Denver Nuggets and value athletic ability at all cost over IQ or what. Are they going to build a crew of movement players who have high IQ like Horford and Marvin with a PG who is completely anti-movement in Teague and Hinrich.Atlanta has no direction. It's like the kid who draws the picture and has lions, dinosaurs, and a hip hop dancer all in the same picture. It might be a nice picture but no direction. The Hawks need to figure that out. But regardless Atlanta lacks too much talent and that's the biggest need. They need to have depth and more talent before they can trade anyone like Smith unless it's for CP3 or Horford unless it's for Howard.I agree about the PG. Mike Bibby when he came here was a below average PG with elite bbiq and we improved greatly as an unit. We haven't had a real solid PG since Blaylock and we haven't had a playmaker since Pistol Pete. I think Teague could be very good but he's like raw verison of KJ. Super talented but average bbiq, no real playmaking ability, and is more of a SG anyway. We need to make decisions but I am afraid those might not improve the team without a blockbuster.Because I only did a partial SR, it's not going to be uber specific. Defense means defensive impact. My detailed SR say that but you got to be in the know for those. Man defense is a combination of post defense and perimeter man defense. Intelligence is a combination of offensive and defensive bbiq. If it was my detailed SR, it would have Smith rated in those. There are 100 traits that go into that one. But that takes months to do since I watch a lot of new and old film. This one was done in about 3 hours and the ratings in 30 minutes. I did a profile recently that took me over 6 hours but seen the film going a scouting report on that team already so I knew what the team looked like as it was.

Edited by nbasuperstar40, 05 December 2011 - 01:14 PM.


#11 Joker

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 10:22 AM

2012 reviews...Nothing really changed for Al. Still the same.For Josh.Attacking the basket/Slashing: 7.3 UpAthleticism: 9.6 DownRebounding: 9.3 UpDefense: 9.8 DownIntangibles: 5.5 UpJosh has improved and became a more complete player.

#12 Diesel

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 11:43 AM

Josh would be an allstar if his 3 pointer would fall more often. Last year he did improve it, but its still usually more of a liability than an asset. Last year he shot 33% from 3 - his best year ever. He pulled it up about 3-4% from prior years. (He shot 0-7 the year before when Woody convinced him to stop. 30% the year before that.) If he improves another 3% - he's at 36%. So that's starting to look pretty good. Now that he's lost weight - this could be his best year ever.

Josh would be an allstar if he abandoned the 3pt shot and worked on his midrange game. Josh may never be a Shawn Kemp/Blake Griffin type slasher,... it's not in him... but he can mold his game after Odom a little more. Better shots. Less three pointers. Score off the dribble going to the rim occassionally.

#13 Joker

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 12:10 PM

Josh would be an allstar if he abandoned the 3pt shot and worked on his midrange game. Josh may never be a Shawn Kemp/Blake Griffin type slasher,... it's not in him... but he can mold his game after Odom a little more. Better shots. Less three pointers. Score off the dribble going to the rim occassionally.

I don't really think he can handle a lot of offensive responsibility due to his poor decision making skills and offensive BBIQ. The more responsibility, the more he is in unfavorable situations. Josh is best as a #3 option with an uptempo PG and a real center.

#14 exodus

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 12:48 PM

Is Smith still trying to lead the break all the time? That used to get on my nerves.

#15 Joker

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 12:51 PM

Is Smith still trying to lead the break all the time? That used to get on my nerves.

Of course. He did it at least once in every playoff game.