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9-2 without Horf.


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#31 High5

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Posted 01 February 2012 - 12:18 PM

View PostDolfan23, on 01 February 2012 - 12:06 PM, said:

You don't believe in things like winshares but you do believe in the raw numbers?  I will have to keep a note of that for the next time I see you use anything other than raw numbers to make your point.

Back to the point though, how about the fact that Teague is leading our team in steals (and 6th in the NBA) and also by far the best 3pt shooter of our starters at 45%?  Teagues steal to turnover ratio is also 12th best in the NBA among guards as well.  I'd say that Teagues defense and distance shooting have been far and away better than "ok" and so has his overall play.

Marvin is shooting 50% from 3.

#32 Dolfan23

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Posted 01 February 2012 - 12:21 PM

View PostHigh5, on 01 February 2012 - 12:18 PM, said:

Marvin is shooting 50% from 3.

Whoops you are correct about that ... which I can't believe I forgot since I've been bragging about Marvin's 3pt shooting this year. Thanks for correcting me!

#33 Sothron

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Posted 01 February 2012 - 12:31 PM

I love how somehow because I don't think Jeff Teague is THE REASON our team is playing better that somehow I'm not being fair to him or that I am a "hater".  12 points and 5 assists with good defense is just OK in my book. Teague is nowhere near our best player and that is what I was referring to when someone was  blasting Joe in other posts and praising Teague of all people as being our best player and THE reason our team is doing so well. That is what I was criticizing.

And Dolf, trust me, you can go back to the beginning with my posts. I've said numerous times I don't believe in "advanced" metrics because most of the time they don't pass the eyeball test. Teague is playing ok which is light years ahead of the walking corpse we had in Mike Bibby this time last year. Just because someone is playing an OK starter level versus someone playing at the worst level in the NBA (at least in defense) doesn't make them an All NBA player. Likewise Marvin showing up some games like in Detroit to hit some threes does not make up for the colossal bust he has been and will continue to be unless he becomes a consistent player.

I have nothing against Teague but he's not the best player on our team and is not THE reason we have this record.

#34 Jody23

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Posted 01 February 2012 - 12:48 PM

View PostSothron, on 01 February 2012 - 12:31 PM, said:

I love how somehow because I don't think Jeff Teague is THE REASON our team is playing better that somehow I'm not being fair to him or that I am a "hater".  12 points and 5 assists with good defense is just OK in my book. Teague is nowhere near our best player and that is what I was referring to when someone was  blasting Joe in other posts and praising Teague of all people as being our best player and THE reason our team is doing so well. That is what I was criticizing.

And Dolf, trust me, you can go back to the beginning with my posts. I've said numerous times I don't believe in "advanced" metrics because most of the time they don't pass the eyeball test. Teague is playing ok which is light years ahead of the walking corpse we had in Mike Bibby this time last year. Just because someone is playing an OK starter level versus someone playing at the worst level in the NBA (at least in defense) doesn't make them an All NBA player. Likewise Marvin showing up some games like in Detroit to hit some threes does not make up for the colossal bust he has been and will continue to be unless he becomes a consistent player.

I have nothing against Teague but he's not the best player on our team and is not THE reason we have this record.
I have to agree with you that Joe Johnson is clearly the best player on this team.  While Teague has not been "THE" reason for this team's success, he has clearly been a significant part of "THE" reason.  I think he's been the best starting point guard this team has had in quite some time.

#35 JayBirdHawk

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Posted 01 February 2012 - 01:19 PM

We finally seem to have our PG of the future and we fighting about if he is the best player on team.  can we just be happy with his progress so far....smh

#36 Sothron

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Posted 01 February 2012 - 01:40 PM

View PostJayBirdHawk, on 01 February 2012 - 01:19 PM, said:

We finally seem to have our PG of the future and we fighting about if he is the best player on team.  can we just be happy with his progress so far....smh

I'm very happy with his progress and I have never said otherwise. I hope he continues to grow on the court on both ends.

#37 NineOhTheRino

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Posted 01 February 2012 - 02:53 PM

People would have called me insane if I posted a "who would you rather have: Teague or Rondo" thread last year.  Now it doesn't appear so crazy.  Rondo's numbers are better, but I think Rondo has peaked as a player.  Teague is no way near his apex, and the rest of the league is in trouble when he gets there.

Edited by NineOhTheRino, 01 February 2012 - 02:57 PM.


#38 Hotlanta1981

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Posted 01 February 2012 - 04:37 PM

The downside is the team is 3-6 against teams with winning records.

#39 Colin

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Posted 01 February 2012 - 04:48 PM

It is funny, it comes out during our analysis' that a lot of us have players on the team that we like a lot, and dislike as well. Obviously i'm the biggest Zaza advocate here, so every picture I paint of the Hawks is through Zaza-colored lenses. That being said, here is my analysis.

We are a stronger team with Zaza at center, not a better team. He provides a huge body in the paint that (even though he runs into his own players often) is still there. He gets positions on rebounds and changes the way that other teams have to consider driving the lane or rebounding. Horf is a better defender, but gets pushed around often, something that rarely happens to Zaza. Zaza doesn't need plays run for him to get his points, so as a result, this frees up more possessions for Teague, Smith, JJ and Marvin. By having Zaza in the middle, we have MUCH better spacing, allowing more open threes for our guys. If they leave Zaza alone to spread out on all shooters, that is when Zaza gets his dunks. I think that having a 6'11, 282 pound center is definitely an advantage over a 6'9-ish 245 pound one. (Estimate on the weight for Horford?) Spacing and ball movement is a big deal for this team, and we've seen that with the emergence of Marvin's shooting, Zaza's layups, and Teague's penetration. The pick and pop from JT to Horf is nice, but the pick and run under the basket from JT to Zazais more efficient for our team.

Teague has played GREAT, his only problem is inconsistency, 5 games of 20+ and 7 games of seven or less. He has a deadly floater, and has proven his speed. He is a reason we are playing well, but note the sole reason.

Joe Johnson is playing like a true #1 option; and I saw it coming. Maybe not to this extent so soon, but basically, I believed that we have too many offensive weapons on our offense to spread them out evenly enough so that everybody plays to their potential. Marvin RARELY got enough shots to get a rhythm, and that definitely affected his confidence and production when Horford was healthy, because he was the #5 option. The same went for Teague, as he was the #4 option with the 5 of them on the court together. With Zaza not really the center of any possessions, we receive an extra amount of plays to run for these other players. Even if this is just 1 or 2 extra shots a game, it can make a difference. Everyone is taking advantage of them now.

Smith has been good, yet still inconsistent, and I still think it is in his head. Some nights he seems disinterested, while other nights he seems like he is having the time of his life. He definitely needs to improve his free throw percentage and work on shot selection, but that is the same as always.

Marvin knocking down threes and playing solid defense is another reason we are winning. He has confidence in his three point stroke, even if he can't hit the layups yet. i think this can be attributed to an increase in touches (not necessarily shots), and the fact that with Horford out, he sees a little more of clutch minutes since we need our best players on the court.

Throw in Willie Green and T-Mac's effectiveness, and that explains why we're winning. Having a bigger center on the court makes us better at certain things which we are taking advantage of. However, February will show us just how good we are, and whether or not we need another center. What nobody has mentioned yet, is that we have had extremely good fortune (or Zaza has been doing a great job) of NOT getting into foul trouble, and forcing us to play Collins that much. If Zaza gets in foul trouble Vs. the Lakers/Bulls/certain teams, we could easily lose the game in the minutes Collins is on the court. Ivan has been ineffective lately, but maybe he'll show flashes of that T-Wolves game again if needed.

#40 JayBirdHawk

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Posted 01 February 2012 - 05:00 PM

View PostColin, on 01 February 2012 - 04:48 PM, said:

It is funny, it comes out during our analysis' that a lot of us have players on the team that we like a lot, and dislike as well. Obviously i'm the biggest Zaza advocate here, so every picture I paint of the Hawks is through Zaza-colored lenses. That being said, here is my analysis.

We are a stronger team with Zaza at center, not a better team. He provides a huge body in the paint that (even though he runs into his own players often) is still there. He gets positions on rebounds and changes the way that other teams have to consider driving the lane or rebounding. Horf is a better defender, but gets pushed around often, something that rarely happens to Zaza. Zaza doesn't need plays run for him to get his points, so as a result, this frees up more possessions for Teague, Smith, JJ and Marvin. By having Zaza in the middle, we have MUCH better spacing, allowing more open threes for our guys. If they leave Zaza alone to spread out on all shooters, that is when Zaza gets his dunks. I think that having a 6'11, 282 pound center is definitely an advantage over a 6'9-ish 245 pound one. (Estimate on the weight for Horford?) Spacing and ball movement is a big deal for this team, and we've seen that with the emergence of Marvin's shooting, Zaza's layups, and Teague's penetration. The pick and pop from JT to Horf is nice, but the pick and run under the basket from JT to Zazais more efficient for our team.

Teague has played GREAT, his only problem is inconsistency, 5 games of 20+ and 7 games of seven or less. He has a deadly floater, and has proven his speed. He is a reason we are playing well, but note the sole reason.

Joe Johnson is playing like a true #1 option; and I saw it coming. Maybe not to this extent so soon, but basically, I believed that we have too many offensive weapons on our offense to spread them out evenly enough so that everybody plays to their potential. Marvin RARELY got enough shots to get a rhythm, and that definitely affected his confidence and production when Horford was healthy, because he was the #5 option. The same went for Teague, as he was the #4 option with the 5 of them on the court together. With Zaza not really the center of any possessions, we receive an extra amount of plays to run for these other players. Even if this is just 1 or 2 extra shots a game, it can make a difference. Everyone is taking advantage of them now.

Smith has been good, yet still inconsistent, and I still think it is in his head. Some nights he seems disinterested, while other nights he seems like he is having the time of his life. He definitely needs to improve his free throw percentage and work on shot selection, but that is the same as always.

Marvin knocking down threes and playing solid defense is another reason we are winning. He has confidence in his three point stroke, even if he can't hit the layups yet. i think this can be attributed to an increase in touches (not necessarily shots), and the fact that with Horford out, he sees a little more of clutch minutes since we need our best players on the court.

Throw in Willie Green and T-Mac's effectiveness, and that explains why we're winning. Having a bigger center on the court makes us better at certain things which we are taking advantage of. However, February will show us just how good we are, and whether or not we need another center. What nobody has mentioned yet, is that we have had extremely good fortune (or Zaza has been doing a great job) of NOT getting into foul trouble, and forcing us to play Collins that much. If Zaza gets in foul trouble Vs. the Lakers/Bulls/certain teams, we could easily lose the game in the minutes Collins is on the court. Ivan has been ineffective lately, but maybe he'll show flashes of that T-Wolves game again if needed.

Per ESPN, Al is 6'-10", 250lbs........Z is 6'-11", 275

#41 ngc7

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Posted 01 February 2012 - 05:35 PM

why do you keep pointing to his numbers. lol how many games have the starters sat on the bench cause of a blowout . he could easy be at 16/8 plus he is top 5 in steals and his three % is sick...lol watch the games !! teague is beasting



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