Sothron

So you aren't noticing how much better our guards and perimeter players are doing at shutting down perimeter penetration?

Why is Shellhead getting any credit? He's not playing well and IMO the real big change we have made is denying perimeter penetration straight to the hoop that we gave up in droves last season.

Do you guys know the history of Chad Ford? He used to run sportstalk.com which was THE internet sports rumor site back in the day. ESPN was losing so much traffic and actual stories that were proven true to sportstalk that they went in and bought out the site and gave Ford and his buddies some cushy jobs.

Sportstalk.com died and became...ESPN Insider.

Ford is just as clueless and a rumor monger now as he ever was. The difference? He went from being "internet hack" to "ESPN roving reporter" with "insider sources".

He hates Knight because Knight won't talk to anyone in the media. Pete Babcock was probably the nicest GM in the league who talked to these guys and Knight refuses to do it. A little too much IMO but this is where Ford's hate comes in. Knight won't talk to him or explain his draft logic so Ford has been on a crusade against him for years.

I disagree. There are at least three of four teams that if they had him, Chill would be their starting 2 guard (possibly 3 as well) over what they have now. I am worried that won't be able to keep him once his rookie contract expires.

You are confident we can. Guess what here? I hope you ARE right. I don't want to lose Chill and the flexibility he gives us off the bench.

Despite my grouchiness about certain general managers, I'm always a diehard Hawks fan. If I can stuff my arteries for a playoff run, corndog heaven here I come!

I will try during the work week to eat at least one or two days corndogs for lunch. I do it anyways but if I can time it right for gamedays....wooo corndog karma!

Don't get me wrong, I would have included Chill with Harrington if need be in order to get Bynum. I just don't know if the reports out of LA about his availability were really true or not.

http://www.rotoworld.com/Content/Depth_NBA.aspx?sport=NBA

Read it. If you can look at the actual depth charts as they stand right now and tell me Chill can't start for AT LEAST 3 other teams then you are insane. Or are you seriously telling me you'd take Stevenson or JR Smith or Luther Head or an extremely small backcourt in Knight/Felton with one of them starting out of necessity at the wrong position? I mean please.

I don't know what prescriptions you are currently not taking but I have never "flip flopped" on anything related to the Hawks. You keep saying I called Chill a "bust" and I keep repeating that I never said that, I just said we could have taken a better player AT THAT spot. Of course you are already proven guilty of literally making up [censored] that people say when you tried to come up with some crap about what I said earlier about my feelings for the team so I'm not exactly surprised you are now trying to "Clintonize" something else I've supposedly said.

There's no possible way any of us know for sure what these players are going to be. I remember when Damon Stoudamire was ROY for the Raptors and everyone on the NBA planet was annoiting him the "next Zeke" and he never came close to that.

I wish we could have put together a package with Harrington to get Bynum if he was indeed out on the table this summer. But it wouldn't surprise me if he never was. Kupcheck loves the kid and while Jackson has never liked the pick they aren't going to give up on him on his rookie contract.

Er, buddy, you are dead wrong on who you have at the starting spots for most of those teams at the two position. It might help if you actually do a little bit of research first. T-mac is a SF, so is Carmello, so is Desmond Mason, so is Peja, so is Danny Danger Granger, so is Battier, so is Grant Hill. Every single team I listed could use Chill as an upgrade over their current starting shooting guard.

You'll excuse me if I think Chill is better than Deshaun Stevenson (lol) or Luther Head or Kirk Snyder or JR Smith or even crazy as [censored] Stephen Jackson. To be fair to Jax he's probably equal talen to Chill but he's nuttier than a fruitcake so I think the Pacers would want someone more dependable.

And again, you show me where I said Chill was a bust. I don't think he was the right player to be taken #6 when we still had all those other options available. THAT BEING SAID he's still a C+ player right now who might grade out to a B- solid starter for years for another team. THAT is my point. You call Joe Cool an "A" player. I actually agree with that. So even if Chill does become a "B" talent you don't start "B" over "A" and in today's salary cap you can't afford to pay a "B" a "C" money.

Someone else is going to pop enough paper to get Chill's interest. If you are seriously telling me that not even two or three teams in the entire NBA couldn't use him as an upgrade then YOU are the one calling him a "busted pick" not me.

At least you managed to avoid too many personal attacks in this post.

Teams that have inferior starting SGs to Chill right now:

Bobcats

Denver

Houston

Indiana

Orlando

New Orleans

Sacramento

Toronto

Washington

You could also make arguments for Utah, Phoenix,Portland, New York, Minnesota, Memphis and Boston. Obviously some of those teams are dependent on how rookies or very young guys pan out but you get my point.

The other teams could definitely use Chill as a starter. I did not say they were going to throw a max deal or something insane at him either. But considering what we know about Knight and the (cheap) ownership situation...how much are WE going to really offer him and Smooth to keep them? And still have room for JJ, Zaza, Claxton and reupping in the near future (at that point) Marvin and Shellhead?

If you want to use replacement value as an argument that's fine. But that means we'll be shipping them out in a S&T to either get a player who accepts a reduced role or for a draft pick who will come in knowing that role. Who we would then in four to five years turn into another trade but that's looking way ahead.

I don't know what questions you asked me in another thread, if you repost them here in this thread since I know its one you are responding to me then I will try to answer them.

As for the All-star talent, we passed on at least three point guard that will be All-stars: Raymond Felton, Deron Williams and of course Chris Paul. We also passed on two guys who are already getting a lot of attention: Jameer Nelson and Delonte West. Or how about passing on Chris Duhon who could easily start for us right now and instead grabbing Royal freaking Ivey? In that same draft (note I'm picking out players from just one draft here so far) we passed on Biedrins who has looked like a beast in limited minutes.

I already talked about Deng and Iggy. Al Jefferson has looked good and Robert Swift was a great young big man prospect. Now I'm not saying all of these guys are All-stars but you can not honestly tell me there wasn't some decisions just in that draft we can look back on and criticize Knight for. I don't know if you were on the internet in 2004 but I know at realgm.com we were all shocked as hell that Chill was our pick. We thought it was a slam dunk that either Gordon, Deng or Iggy would be our pick.

As for the other point you are making about the salary cap, I'm sorry but I don't give much shrift to empty cap space. I have always been a long time proponent of not blowing cap space on middling' talent (see Henderson, see Dampier, see Tariq Abdul-Wahad) but we have seen teams get better deals than what we got. If you remember at the time of the trade both SAR and Theo were fresh off All-star appearances, still under 30 and very good players at their positions. All we managed was a late teens draft pick? UGH. Its not a fair return of investment.

I may just be middle management in a Fortune 500 insurance company but I can appreciate trading tangible assests for questionale benefits.

Don't sweat this guy, gsuteke. I think your sig fits northcyde to a "T". Some people are here because they are fans of the Hawks, some are just here to try and make points off internet posters.

If three monkeys get together and throw poop at a passing visitor at a zoo, well, you get the point.

And just for the record, I can either play nice with you guys or I can stoop to your level and start taking potshots and flames. I guarantee you don't want to see that or have the site get bogged down with flames. That's the only warning you will get. Insulting my intelligence or calling me an idiot is needless personal attacks and its the first sign you've lost an argument.

Now let me get down to squashing your arguments like so much bugs:

1. We got raped by Portland. We gave up two All-star big men for NOTHING. We had absolutely no idea we were getting Smoove as a result so don't even *pretend* Knight knew that [censored] was going to happen. We should have gotten more than what we did. If any of you guys were posting at any Hawks site I know of at that time, which I might add I've never seen any of you before and as my sig says I've been talking Hawks for ten years now on the net, you would know how much outrage the fanbase had at how LITTLE WE GOT from that trade.

The value we gave up far exceeded the value we got back AT THAT TIME. Only bad general managers make that decision.

Example? Elgin Baylor. Yes, I know Donald Sterling was cheap for about thirty years. So what. That guy (Baylor) drafted a metric ton of wasted lottery picks. He now is praised for ripping off Krause for Brand, trading for Cassell and having some of that talent finally pay off and have Sterling pay to keep it. Big f'ing deal. That does NOT negate the MANY year of incompetence.

Ditto for Knight. Exact same situation. We get almost nothing for trading so many quality players, All-star big men for that matter, and we get Smoove and the ever popular "cap room" excuse. All of that nonsense about "Oh in 1993 we coulda done this and that lead to 1999 and oh yeah! that waiver of priest lauderdale opened up 300,000 to add for cap space" is complete garbage. Knight had no f'ing clue he was going to even have a chance at JJ or that JJ would be what he was when Knight made those trades.

He could and should have gotten more value in those trades.

2. I've said this before but I see I have to connect the dots for you guys. If a team has "D" level talent at one position and notices our team has "C/C+" level talent at that same position AND one or two of those players are free agents...hold on here....wait for it....they'll offer them enough money to START for them to replace their own "D" level talent.

Its really not that complicated. Deng, Iggy, who the hell else, are not going anywhere. Its the teams starting crap talent that's going to go after our young guys. And our young guys who are NOT starting may in fact, hold on here...wait for it...decide to go play somewhere else TO start.

Did that like blow your mind? I know its hard to grasp the concept guys in their young 20's might want to start at some point in their career and get PAID as starters.

If we are not starting Chill and Smoove by the team they can leave then there is (at least) a very good chance they leave. I really don't understand how that is such a hard concept to grasp. But I'll leave it at that without insulting people's intelligence.

I need to go eat dinner so take your time on the next essay.

If you draft a decent starting guard and pass on an All-star or just below All-star talent...yes, I think that deserves criticism. Toronto, in your example, drafted a gifted big man over a gifted combo guard. We have yet to do that.

I know its not cool or very Christian to say this but I really do hope Diaw fails miserably in Phoenix. Not get hurt...just fall into the routine of never taking a shot and stifling an offense like he did here in Atlanta.

I don't know how to break this to you dude but throwing strawmen into an argument isn't going to fly with me. You are bringing up like four or five completely unrelated topics and trying to jumble them together to prove a point. Its not working.

I will treat each of your thoughts as the seperate topics they are.

1. BK makes bad picks and is bottom 10 GM in the NBA: absolutely. We got next to nothing from trading away two All-stars in SAR and Theo Ratliff. We got next to nothing trading Jason Terry who then helps lead the Mavs to the Finals. We get next to nothing for Al Harrington. We gave up a gold mine in Diaw and two first round picks to get JJ.

Notice a pattern there? If you trade with Knight you completely rape him. I'm talking pulling down his pants, bending him over your knee and have him repeat nursery rhymes while you just give it to him hardcore. Only a moron makes those deals. Hence BK not being a good GM. That basis ALONE makes him a bad GM. Getting almost nothing in trades is not good.

2. I already explained the "happier with the team" comment elsewhere. If you can sit there and tell me you have been happy with seven losing years and can't remember a time BEFORE THAT when the team was better I'll eat my damn hat.

3. I said that its possible one or both will leave. Yep. I've said that since we traded for JJ. And drafted Marvin. Because you don't fit square pegs in circles and hope it works out. We can't have 3-4 guys playing essentially the same role and expect them to STAY on the team. That's just common sense. If say two of these guys were 33 year old players then YES that can happen. We don't have a team using four forwards with half or them accepting diminished roles due to age. We have very, very young players who want to start. Big diff.

4. Please try and not toss various statements I make and try to come up with a point. Its insulting to my intelligence, no offense, and a waste of time. I think the Falcons need to start Clabo at guard. Is that going to come back to "haunt me"?

Don't mistake me, I'd love to see those two on our team for years to come. No question.

As for the players you specifically mentioned, I don't see Deng leaving the Bulls or Iggy leaving the Sixers. But there will always be at least three to five teams looking for a good starter at SG/SF and that is whom I am saying will go after those guys. Not the teams that drafted other, better players.

Say right now the Bobcats need a SG. So do the Hornets. I can see either one going after Chill if he was a FA after this season. Would we really offer him *that* much money to keep him as a 6th or 7th guy off the bench? I don't believe so. This also doesn't account for the fact Chill may WANT to leave to start somewhere. Its not every player who decides to sacrifice the best years of their career just to stick with the team that drafted them.

Ditto for Smoove. He's starting now, sure...but if he gets replaced by Marvin/Shellhead as the starting forward why would he stay here?

I understand your point. Its now a season removed from that draft and while we may not agree with the pick I don't see the point in constantly bringing it up. Most here would have preferred Paul, I would have went with Deron. I don't post about it incessantly since I don't really see the point in crying over spilled milk unless we're specifically discussing that player or that pick.

I would have loved, still do actually, to have seen what Deron Williams could do next to Joe Cool. We'll never know unless its a video game format though.

Oh boy. Are you BK here? Talk about tossing out strawmen!

The fact we could have drafted better is completely seperate from this topic. So let's don't cloud issues. Chill is a player that's good enough to start for most teams. I'm not sure I ever called him a bust but he certainly has been a disappointing use of a lottery pick. If he wasn't then we would never have brought JJ over.

But that's not here or there. Chill is good enough to start and he's going to want to start. He and Smoove are going to want to start and if they both are stuck on the bench neither one will ever get the chance to truly grow as players and put up the kind of numbers (and money) they could have. So yes, they will leave.

We will not offer them as much money as other teams will to become starters. In fact with our ownership situation it wouldn't surprise me in the least to see us do sign and tradse just to get a pick or two to get a cheap replacement for their skillsets.

I remember a game where Favre walked off the field with like 12 seconds left and no one said anything about it until the week after when people brought it up. Why was Randy Moss nailed to a cross and Favre let off the hook?

They would be leaving because they would get starter's minutes, starter's roles and starter's salaries on other teams. Why would they stay to be a backup? Especially if this team is still losing?

I'm not talking about rookie contracts.

We need a real point guard that can pass, defend and shoot. So far Lue is doing a nice job in that role but he's better coming off the bench. This is where I think we are really missing passing on Deron Williams who fits my criteria to a "T" and that's about it for this season. Next year we will have to choose between Smoove or Chill since one (or both) will be leaving.

Its not just your television. There's some sort of haze or film on the cameras and it looks hazy.

Did anyone else see the Yahoo sports recap of the game? Whoever wrote it not only trashed the Hawks about five seperate times in the piece they also said the Hawks have had "decades of futility". What.the.hell? Did I sleep through the 80's and up to the last 90's?