RedDawg#8

Crawford also plays for the first time since game 1 of the preseason. Its good to see these guys getting some action

Marvin was a set up pick in my mind. It was like the entire world kept saying he was too good to pass up that even we as fans believed it and didnt want to "take a chance" the undersized Paul. I honestly dont remember what made him so much better than everybody else at the time. I think cuz he could do a little bit of everything. As far as Chillz, I really didnt want to draft him because I didnt like his afro, thats all I had against him tho. Shelden was the MOST painful of all of those misses because I think he was the only one that everybody could agree before hand wasnt worth the pick that high. It hurt so much knowing we were going to select him, praying when our pick came up that a miracle would happen, then we still picked him. I was so mad at our franchise for that one. He truly was overkill on another 6'9 forward. Acie didnt bother me as much because it was a weak point gaurd draft. I woulda been happy with him or Crittenton at 11 because of Critts size and being from Tech, and Acie's supposed "sharpshooting". The jury is still out on Critt and Conley but Acie's days may be numbered in the NBA.

here it goes: bibby = nelson, teague vs. johnson (u decide) johnson = vince, crawford >> pietrus Marv < Lewis, Evans = Barnes Smith > Bass, Joe S > Anderson Horford < Howard, Pachulia = Gortat i think Teague would embraress johnson but i may be being biased. overall i think we are even with Orl, they're respect is based off of last seasons team which is a totally different look than this one. if Carter doesnt pan out then this offseason was a bust for them. and by pan out i mean stay healthy. we were 12 games back last year, they have to at least match their win total and im sure we can make up 8 or so games on the road. i like our chances of catching them.

Im not sure how acurate the depth charts are on ESPN.com but as far Orlando stands: pg: Nelson, Johnson sg: Carter, Pietrus sf: Lewis, Barnes pf: Bass, Anderson C: Howard, Gortat I originally thought Bass would come off the bench behind Lewis, with this starting unit they arent as deadly from deep as they were last year, plus taking Lewis even further away from the basket helps us out rebounding wise. Nelson is overated, the East had no true all-stars at pg but a bunch of fringe all-stars. I dont fear his game or him being an "all-star". Gortat is also overated, as skilled as he is, the Magic do not use him alot because Howard will stay on the floor so much. He has a decent game but his contributions are minimal. Their bech doesnt blow me away, esp with Bass starting. Joe Smith > Anderson

What if we end up keeping 2 gaurds and not adding to our bigs? Our roster contains several froncourt players but not as many backcourt players. the frountcourt is: Marv, Smoove, Horf, Zaza, Joe S., Collins, RandMo (thats 7) Joe, Evans will also see time at SF so thats 2 more potentials = 7 true with a possible 9 The backcourt however is only: Bibby, Joe, Teague, Crawford, Evans = 5 (and only 5) If we end up keeping both Dixon AND West, that will give us 2 more definate guards, and another possible SF which would bring us to: 7 true fowards (10 possible's) and 7 true guards Im very interested to see which route we go, as long as the last spots go to either combination of Dixon, West, and Hunter, ill be happy.

Thats real, and something I think all people who are still looking at the Marvin over Paul mistake as something thats holding us back. As great as Paul is, Marvin may very well get a ring before him, and be a significant reason why, not just some bench-rider who doesnt play. The team has let it go, its time for the media and some fans to as well.

Prince has been in the league alot longer on one of the best defensive teams of our recent history that by the way happened to win a championship. Anybody with a ring usually gets more notoriety for doing the same things as a player without one. Case in point, the superlatives on NBA.com for different categories voted on by coaches, there wasnt a single Hawk to make the top vote getters, NOT ONE, but i can think of several categories where one of our players were worth mentioning. As our team continues to get better and better, you can expect our players to recieve such honors that they currently dont get recognized for.

its not the Marvin protective force, it's the rational, shed light on the fact's force. its not too late to sign up either

I agree AHF, but in terms of how we (or Woody) likes our PG's, he has all the tools he needs already. But then again, 8 then 7 assist's the past 2 nights isnt bad. Maybe he will have better success distributing in the pro's because he will be surrounded by better finisher's than his prep days. Who know's though, you can never really judge how a player's game will evolve once he plays in a pro system.

Dixon vs West for Backup gaurd Hunter vs Sims and Silar for backup Big my take Hunter and Dixon if we take 2 players West if we only take one player (he can gaurd 3 positions)

(Wonders what Carmelo had to do with anything) Jeez Diesel, Yes, there are better SF's in the NBA than Marvin. There are also better PG's than Bibby, better SG's than Joe, better PF's than Josh, and better Centers than Horford. You continue to act like Marv is the only player who can improve on our team. BUT HE'S NOT. Our team is good because of the sum of it's parts. Individually, we fall short in several matchup's against the top team's. We would love to see him become an All-star, we also would love Bibby, Smoove, and Al to be all-star's too. We underachieve as a TEAM, not because of Marvin Gaye Williams, the #2 pick of the 2005 NBA Draft. (What the hell has Andrew Bogut done in the league btw?) Our ENTIRE STARTING 5 are 1st round draft picks and NONE of them are superstar's, not even JJ, so just let it go!!!! Stop with your microscopic view of Marvin's game and see the bigger picture. for the sake of our sanity *exxageration*

the Wiz have much more to prove and improve than we do. Yes we have to improve winning road games, but they have to improve winning games period.

Diesel, you remind so much of Skip Bayless, or Terrance Moore in that when it comes to Marvin, it seems you enjoy stirring up controversy more than actually making a factual case without being hypocritical. Over the entire off-season every angle you have used to dis-credit Marvin and those who support him have been thwarted with facts. Nobody on here is saying he is a world-beater, but that seems to be what you think he should be and what you think he has to be. If you can seriously just let go of his draft night expectations, and then focus in on our team we have and how all the parts fit together as a whole, it may make excepting Marvin and his role a little easier. Nobody is saying Marv cant, wont, or shouldnt do better, but to single him out over and over as if he is the only player in a Hawks uniform that isnt playing to his potential is getting tired and quite funny imo. Each of our players are deficient in some way. Bibby literally cant defend or drive the ball, he sits on the outside way more than Marv does. Joe gets to the free throw line less frequently than Marv, Smoove's stats dropped across the board last season despite getting his raise (which happens to be higher than Marv's) and he is overall just less effecient than Marv, has a lower bball IQ, and is just immmature. Horford hasnt improved his post game or added any weight or muscle since he got here and he was a #3 pick who has been a starter from the jump, at least Marv earned his way into the starting lineup. All this in mind and what's your biggest argument against Marv??? He isnt aggresive enough. THATS IT! he has a very complete package but you just have to harp on that one aspect. This is the thing, Smoove may NEVER become a good jumpshooter or control his emotions on the court, and when he gets older and loses his athleticism, he wont be able to last in the NBA. Horford may NEVER become a dominate C for us because he is out of position, Bibby WONT get his young legs back and be able to drive like his early years,. BUT! Marv will continue to have an all-around game and those skills will only get better and more refined and when he is actually needed to be the aggressor, he still has the potential to do so. His deficiency is not skill-related, or physically dependent, its only mental and once the light-bulb goes off, he has all the tools to live up to his billing from draft night. until then, he is still accepted and respected by most Hawks fans. I appreciate what he brings to this team, nobody on this team can duplicate everything he does. He is a great blend of athleticism, actual skill and smarts. C'mon Diesel, Jackie Moon said it best: "E-L-E....Everybody Love Everrybody" Diesel love Marvin, i know its in you man

based on the box score, the Hawks appeared to have played a pretty decent game, outdoing the Pistons in everything but shooting percentages. The shots just didnt fall for them. Horford went 1-7 and didnt get to the line any. Im not sure who was defending him but those are bad numbers for our starting center. As a team we only shot .385 from the feild, and went 1-12 from 3p land. if we woulda hit just 4-12 or .250 then we're talking about a tie game. Overall, doesnt seem like much to worry about. Also the Pistons were playing 2 starters and Ben Gordon late when we were sitting all of our starters so down the strecth of the game, the outcome got kinda skewed. Hunter 14 pts and 7 boards is really making a push for a spot Miles and Dixon got playing time and did ok., i think the 3rd string guard spot is winding down to them and West, and I honestly would be happy with either of the 3. Robinson hasnt seemed very productive in 2 outings and Wilks is just short (yeah im hating on his height). West did go 0-for tonight with no points or rebounds. he probably has the least skill but his heart and athleticism is carrying him right now.

1. Why are we bringing up Flip? He isnt here anymore. He plays for Charlotte. Crawford IS NOT Flip. Crawford IS Crawford. 2. If what Marvin, or any other player does leads to our team being succesful, then why complain. When we stop improving as a team is when we should worry about individuals who might be holding us back. 3. Putting Crawford in the starting line-up with Joe DOES NOT gauruntee that we will be a better team. There is a thing called CHEMISTRY that we have in our starting 5 that almost no other team in the NBA has coming into this year. (Boston is the only other team i can think of) 4. Stop acting as if Marv's injury led to more success without mentioning how we played the majority of those games at HOME when he was out. We had one of the leagues best home records last year but a very mediocre road record. 5. THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH HAVING A GOOD PLAYER COME OFF THE BENCH! even if he may be a better individual player than somebody in the starting lineup. i.e. Manu Ginobli, Jason Terry, Ben Gordon (when with bulls), Pietrus (behind Lee last year), Odom (Better than Bynum, but Bynum gives them a better ovr line-up when Gasol plays PF), Illgauskus (better than Varajeo, but 2 C's is unneccesary), Rasheed (behind Perkins), etc, ETC. You dont just throw your 5 best individual players on the court because they are the most talented. doing this can lead to one or more players playing out of position and effectively working against your team (i.e. last years Piston's: A.I, Stuckey, Hamilton, Prince, Wallace line-up). Its better to just have more firepower off the bench then force somebody into the starting line-up. At the end of the day, Bibby is our best PG, Joe SG,Marv our best SF, Josh our best PF, and Horford our best C. Crawford is OUR 2nd best SG/PG. dont force him into the starting unit because he is a B+ SG and Marv is a B- SF.

13, 26, 30, 37, 47, i say we add between 8-10 wins this year easily. that gives us 55 to 57. i know many ppl are conservative when giving predictions, but remember, this teams record wasnt a reflection of their talent or potential. We didnt max out last year, we actually under-achieved. We lost MANY winnable games last season. just think of how many road games we handed away last season. i can see us having a winning road record this year, coupled with a slighlty improved home record. We lost a home game to LAC for crying out loud, i think those games we "should" win, we will win this year.

That looks too Golden State Warriors-ish. Im almost sure the 3rd Jersey has to be Red or Silver, with white and blue trim. I doubt/ hope/ pray that they dont bring back yellow and try to make it work with our current Navy blue.

I definately wouldn't mind having him. I thought I was the only one who caught that he was on the camp roster. I like him alot more than Mike Wilks (due to his height) I will say this, as our roster currently stands I think we need one more combo gaurd and a true SF. But seeing as though we dont have any SF's invited to camp I will scratch that from my wish list. We are potentially 5 deep at every frontcourt position but only 4 deep at the guard spots PG: Bibby, Teague, Crawford, Johnson SG: Johnson, Crawford, Evans, Teague SF: Williams, Evans, Johnson, Smoove, Joe Smith PF: Smoove, Smith, Williams, Horford, Pachulia (possibly even Joe in some situations) C: Horford, Pachulia, Collins, Smith, Morris If we throw another Combo gaurd in the mix we will have a flexible roster with 5 potential player at every position My favorites for that spot is between: Juan Dixon: 6'3 Scorer, veteran, adequate defense Mario West: 6'5 Athletic, Energy, Defense, Heart Frank Robinson: 6'4 Quick, Energetic, better scorer than West [sidenote] Since we obviously will add at least one more big, I truly would like Hunter since he can shoot now, and send Silar to the D-league.

i disagree. Josh has neither handles or a jumper. Marv is superior to him in both those areas. Josh is a better shawn kemp comparison. Josh can jump, block shots and dunk, but cant be depended on to knock down an open shot at all. thus he is better served in the post closer to the rim Marv can dribble effectively, shoot from the perimeter, jump and gaurd/play both the post and perimeter, making him the better option at the 3

In case yal forgot, Joe wasnt on the Olympic team because after he participated on the national team in 2006 he came back and had that season ending injury the next nba season. He decided to pull himself from team USA stating he wanted to make sure he was healthy enough to make it through the next full season. Alot of players choose not to participate on team USA for this very reason. Kobe was the same way before he changed his mind at the last minute and joined this year. So drop that Joe wasnt selected to the olympic team nonsense, he was on it and opted out. In fact, all the national team members from his 06 summer raved about him and his play stating he was a great asset who was the most versatile player they had. Joe DOES have All-World talent

Roy couldnt even get his team past the first round, Joe won game 7 by himself for the most part. Roy has a killer instinct in lesser moments i.e reg. season Joe has a killer instinct only in the last possible moments where he can still make a difference. the 4th quarter of that game in the Bos series. Game 7 this year. I think Joe tries to play a modest game and not take it over until its absolutely neccesary and almost too late

With Crawford, I say unless he has an amazing camp, he will be our 6th man, but will get starters minutes. We are one of the only teams in the NBA who will be starting the same 5 players for a 3rd season, let alone a second season. Why mess that chemistry up, it is trully one of our best advantages. What I hope we do see is alot of different sub line-ups that are based on matchups that we use intentionally, and not because of injury or foul situation. Bibby-Joe-Marv-Smith-Horf: Start every game with this group, and based off what happens go to either: Craw-Joe-Marv-Smith-Horf: Against taller or faster PG's (Kidd, Chauncey or Rondo) Bibby-Craw-Joe-Smith-Horf: Against smaller quicker SG's (Allen, West, Wade) Bibby-Craw-Joe-Marv-Horf: Spread the court and bombs away shooting line-up (to play catch up) Teague-Craw-Marv-Smith-Horf: Young, Athletic, run and gun group for the fans A little off topic, but in camp i would like to see these be the 2 main units going against each other, but not the actual line-ups Bibby vsTeague (master vs. the apprentice) Crawford vs. Evans (6'5 offense against 6'5 defense) Joe vs. Marvin (Best scorer against the man who will always guard the best scorer during the reg season) Smith vs. a veteran (Hot-headed youngster vs. a wiley vet) Horf vs Zaza (Scrappy vs Scrappier)

Deisel, Its not a bias, When that many people on this board, and on the GS board agree on it, maybe its just the plain truth. Obviously you dont think Marv is better but you made the poll, people responed, so take it for what its worth and not for what you want it to mean. We understand the results didnt come out the way you wanted, but that doesnt mean we did something wrong. You asked, you got an answer. Maybe you should try to just accept Marv, and root for the guy. Im sure if the results came out different you would be telling us to root against him, so im personally requesting you just step back for a moment, put all the negative data on Marvin that you have collected over the years to the side, and just appreciate the positive things he brings to your favorite team, cuz guess what....he is here for 5 more seasons buddy. Nobody here thinks the guy is a star player, we all know he was drafted way too high. And if YOU didnt criticize his game to the point where damn near everybody on here has to defend him, there might be more people who agreed with you, and said the more of the same things you feel, but your perpetual scrutinizing of the man has made people begin to appreciate him more as we research and find out that he is actually better than we give him credit for. Your like a teenager who gets into it with a friend and stops talking to them, then you tell all your other friends not to like that person too, but over time people forget about what happened and like that person again, while your pride is too big to just forgive them and move on. So now you find yourself more isolated from everybody all because of a grudge that you probably cant remember how it began. To Mr. Deisel, I say....let it go. take a deep breath, and free your mind of this hatred. Release yourself of the stress of trying to make us not like Marvin too. Forgive him for his lofty draft status and average career to date. Use your energy to instead think positively about his potential and cheer your favorite team on

What all 3 did is esentially trade away depth and chemistry for a big name. If Shaq doesnt make it through this season injury free, the Cavs could be in major trouble Same goes for Bos and KG, Orlando does not have history on their side, aside from the Lakers this year, most teams that lose is the finals dont return the next year. Add to that that they will have the most chemistry issues to fill and next year could see them take a major fall. The Cavs added shaq, but inevitably lost more depth in their front court. the only good big on the bench is Illgauskus and he can only play one position as opposed to last season when they had Ben Wallace, Joe Smith and Lo Wright who could chip in at both PF/C. I think they are planning on using James more at PF this year, hence the additions of Parker and Moon who can play more SF for them. Overall, while they have the 2 biggest centers in the East on one roster, their front court has actually gotten smaller. They recieve my vote for most vunerable

Since Woody has been here, the PG are not required to facilitate, with that in mind, Teague will be brought along the same way. Look at our history under woody Lue Bibby (in our system, not so much b4 he got here) Acie (a big time shooter coming out of school) Teague Salim All scoring gaurds versus Anthony Johnson Speedy Claxton more traditional pg's As long as JJ is here, the offense will be ran through him, much like Lebron in Cle, and Wade in Mia