Crank

They were pitted against each other for the starter role, which Hinrich won.

looking at the numbers they started together in the backcourt and if they only played only year together how is that possible ?

Kirk Hinrich has the same PER as Marvin Williams but makes more money. This trade is horrible. The guy could be a even worse player than Marvin for us all things considered.

PER ? Hollinger is that you ?

We are a jumpshooting team

Kirk is a drive and kick PG

He will push the ball at every opportunity which we should be doing anyway which will create more opportunities at early offense which we desperately need .

This trade doesnt change our style of play moreso than it allows us to play our style of play better .

Hedo

Derozan

Ben Gordon

Deandre Jordan

Big baby davis

Dalembert

Battier

Biedrens

all have "PER" of 13 or lower as would we not take them because of some ridiculous theory that two players with similar PER also have similar impact on the game basically disregarding the various makeup,roles, and styles of the players on the various teams ?

I dont see how you can grade the trade until we see Hinrich play with the team . If we win 15 in a row with Hinrich and take over the top spot would the trades grade still be a D ?

At this point its an incomplete at best

I disagree with the ball stopping culprits being jj and jamal .

This entire team stops the all because its a one screen team . The key to any motion offense is the energy level of the bigs . They have to constantly be screening and moving but if you watch you will see the primary screen get set and then its either stand around and watch or call for the ball..

If you dont believe me watch the Bulls and Celts games tonight and watch the level of energy that KG and Noah etc use on offense that doesnt involve them getting the ball. They set screens and move and thats where Rondo and Rose pick up quite a few easy assists .

I think Al and Smoove simply are reluctant to pick up ticky tack fouls screening and have to come out of the game with the 2 foul rule .

This isnt 2 players stopping the ball its a entire teams mentality that is stopping the ball.

Kurt fits because he doesnt need the ball to help us .

There is simply no way that a ball dominant guard was gonna come in here and be successful unless it was D.Will,CP3,Rose ,or Nash someone of that caliber . Bringing in these lower tier guards wouldnt have worked as Joe and josh are not gonna stand around while this guy dribbles around every possession.

Kurt is a guy who can run the point but when JJ or Josh grabs the ball he is still equally comfortable filling the lane or spotting up in a corner

Kurt also strengthens our best lineup even further Bibby,Jamal,Joe,Al Smoove was our best lineup but everyone cringed because we had jamal and Bibby in the lineup at the end of the games . Weve now inserted a hustle guy who can shoot and defend into that lineup.

the games of Harris and Sessions simply wouldnt have fit and we wouldnt have gotten the defense upgrade that we needed . I just feel; that too much of our team wouldve had to be changed for them to be succesful here . Kurt allows us to keep the things that worked while still exploring other opportunities .

Smith for Kaman straight up works too.

They have Blake Griffin and Jordan at the PF/C slot .I dont think they would grab Smoove just to put him at SF . Marvin works out better because of his age and demeanor and Zaza gives them a veteran backup for Jordan .

Jordan

Blake

Marvin

Gordon

Mo Williams

thats a very young team in nba years but with experience . With basically the Lakers ,Spurs,and Dallas being the only teams left in the west now is the time to make those moves .

We need a SF in return if we give up Marvin.

nope we would simply move Smoove to SF

Sessions is garbage and would do nothing for us no PG that aint Dwill, Paul or D.Rse ,or Nash was gonna come in here and dominate the ball. The dynamic of this team says no .

You get someone in Hinrich that can play the 1 or the 2 defend the one or the two and allows your best lineup which is the one with both Joe and jamal on the floor to not have to include Bibby and now you put pressure on Marvin to step his game up . If he doesnt well the coach wont be as reluctant to play Hirich,Joe,jamal on the perimeter as he was Bibby,Joe ,jamal .

I still say that unless our big three up there level of play its pointless but I can see why Sund did this deal

Based off what i've seen from Jordan in college and this season. When Jamal leaves who do we have on the bench? Teague? Collins?

Well this move should tell you that maybe just maybe jamal isnt gone now shouldnt it ?or that we are looking at other alternatives in future moves .

Jordan wasnt a sure thing and seemed to me to be a reach simply because we were uncertain about Joe at draft time .

he has potential but right now after the moves our competitors have made potential does us no good unless its SUPERSTAR POTENTIAL . The worst thing a team in our situation can do is get stuck on players that we know cant help us .

When Jordan gets a chance he puts up points. He is also a better passer and rebounder than Jamal as well. Jamal is gone after year why don't you all get that?

hes better passer than jamal based on what ?

jamal being gone after this year is no excuse for the ridiculousness of your post. Your working off of maybes im working off of facts

This whole trade goes down and not one word out of MC.

http://twitter.com/ajchawks

hes probably trying to get some quotes prior to the game

No just arguing your use of "lottery pick". Jordan Craw was a young Jamal (At Worst) on a better contract.

but claiming he is AT WORST a 6th man of the year and a legit 17 ppg scorer is ridiculous .

If anyone actually thought that well we shouldve been trading Joe AND JAMAL

So was Shelden Williams.

May be they will trade Craw's expirer as well.

So now Shelden williams career his similar to Crawfords ? Is that really where you wanna go with this ?

just admit to a brain fart and walk away lol

At worst he is Jamal Crawford. AT WORST.

in your dreams jamal was a LOTTERY PICK

JC2 will be dropping 25-15-8 in 2,3 years..

lol now ive got to wipe this beer off my keyboard

Im still rooting for the Hawks no matter what but my expectations for this current group is at a all time low .

Just reshuffling the deck at this point . Sessions is not gonna get our best players to play like they actually care .

we gotta trade jamal

1. he'll bring back more than marvin/bibby

2. he's walking this summer for nothing b/c we aren't paying to keep him

3. he's the reason we've digressed back to iso plays, because when he comes in we abandon motion for his iso...hawks are the 3rd worst team in the league at points from iso plays yet we do it all the time...if we get rid of jamal, we can go all-in on the motion offense

4. by trading him for a pg like harris we upgrade pg AND our defense (bibby now 6th man and jamal's no d gone) while not hurting our offense (maybe helping)

so jamal is the reason we are back to running isolations ? what ?

When jamal is in the game he is either spotting up for three spreading the floor or running a bunch of screen and roll plays .

As I said in the summer the motion will only go as far as the bigs want it to go because the key to a motion offense is not the guards but the bigs and there willingness to expend huge amounts of energy screening and moving .

We have a become a small slow team there used to be times where Al and Josh would go for every rebound and try and outlet it as fast as possible and then sprint hard down the floor . Now they wait for someone to come and get it and walk it up most of the time . Because now its about conserving energy and simply calling for the ball .

Watch the game tonight and chart how many times we run how many times multiple screens are set .

We could have Rondo and we would still struggle defensively simply because we are small in the middle and dont control the paint

How many individual players have you seen shutdown Joe or jamal ? because Im quite sure Ive never seen any individual do it . but I have seen countless teams run multiple players at them and drive them right into the help defense even the Celts and Spurs do it . Do they blame every defensive problems on there guards ? NO because in the nba guards score they always have they always will you have to have a sound team defense .

What Im seeing is that far too many people have basically blamed everything on Bibby and jamal and it to the point where now when Al or Josh or Marvin or whoever misses a assignment or makes a mistake its all attributed to Bibby and Jamal..

Until Josh,Al,and Joe decide to play like that just getting paid isnt good enough then it doesnt matter how you shuffle that deck . They are treating the city and team like the ugly chick that you can treat anyway you want and she wont leave you because she feels she will never do better . If those three started playing like that the rest of the team would follow .

When I watch Chi,Bos,OKC,Mia I see teams that play like they have something to prove . Teams that are emotional and fired up . Teams that want respect and are willing to fight to get it and it starts with there best players .

The difference between that Chicago team this year and last is that last year if Rose didnt bring his A game it was okay because everyone would just point to everyone elses shortcomings . However this year Ive seen several interviews where has said that when his team doesnt play well its on him because hes the tone setter and so he knows he hast o bring it every game and that if he does more often than not his team will follow him .

On our team they are perfectly fine with using Bibby or jamal or twin as a excuse when we know fioor a fact that if Al,Josh,and Joe all bring there A game every game then we can beat anyone . But its much easier to just keep this status quo.

Add the 2011 & 2013 1rst round picks to those players & you will get something better in return, "that's NBA trade tactics 101". I don't understand why ppl don't want to trade those damned picks.

And for the ppl who think that Jamal > than Marvin:

Marvin's mediocre scoring + his rebounding & defense > Jamal's scoring. Not debatable, stats sometimes are just a joke.

You will get something better in return but that wont change what this team has become . Get your head out of the sand its not about those three players .

The fact is that next season we will have 3 players taking up more than 50% of our cap and none of those three is a all nba caliber player . Good players ? YES !! but not great players and until we get a great player that the league respects or one of the three takes that next step to greatness then it wont matter how you shuffle the deck the outcome will be the same.

and for what its worth

jamals ability to

create his own shot for himself

create shots for others

ability to shoot the three

ability to get to and make foul shots

owns Marvins sometimes offense erratic rebounding and ability to trip over his own feet every other play .

Im so tired of hearing this whining about defense while ignoring the fact that entire team has brain freezes at the craziest times .

Not just Jamal not just Bibby EVERYONE to keep overlooking these facts is ridiculous

We should stand pat its the perfect time to evaluate the ENTIRE roster and determine how we are gonna proceed going forward . No need to make reactionary band aid type moves .

Craw/Mo/Teague/1st + 1st for Felton/J.R. Smith. Bibby and J.R. Come off the bench and Felton is the new starter at PG.

Thats a HORRIBLE trade .

Jr Smith is a expiring deal this year and Felton is a expiring next year ....what are you gonna pay these guys to keep them ? Felton already makes 7.5 and Smith 6 million and I dont think they would be taking paycuts .

If they dont sign youve given up multiple 1st rd picks and the 2010 1st rd pick as well.

At this point in time Id rather wait because i need for the Al,Josh,Joe to show me something this season before I decide to spend anymore money . Unless its for someone who is gonna be the #1 then we are better off waiting .

Sup yall, (relatively) long time lurker, first time poster. You can tell by my screen name I know my Hawks(first random player I thought of haha)

I would trade Jamal for these reasons:

-biggest return off trade

-his scoring can be replaced

-we will get nothing when he walks after the season

He is the best player out of the 3, but that is also the biggest reason we have to trade him. I also feel that the production he brings can be filled in by the rest of the team + what he brings back more so than in Marvin's case.

saying that his scoring can be replaced by the rest of the team is a joke if that was the case then where is it ? If the rest of team could score that well then we should be 5-6 games better than we are now .

The other reasons I agree with but claiming that what he brings is easily replaceable by what we currently have on our team now is simply not true .

Trading jamal does nothing

trading Bibby does nothing

trading Marvin does nothing .

Some Hawks fans need to get there heads out of the sand we have at best a team full of # 2 and #3 s we need to get ourself a #1 or all you are doing is shuffling the deck on chairs on the titanic .

If JOE,AL, OR JOSH dont raise there games this year in the playoffs enough to get us out of the 2nd round well then we should be taking the protections off and looking to trade any combination of players on our team for a #1 .

Those 3 guys next year will make up over 50% of our cap and all we do is talk about Bibby ,Jamal or Marvin .

Its about time we put the onus on our little three to either step up and help the franchise to take the next step or we make a move for a player or players that can .

Thats why I dont feel we will make a move at the deadline . Its just more excusing the core players and blaming everything on the role players. Its time for one of them to step up and take responsibility for this franchise if they cant well then they should be gone .

I'm sick and dang tired of the anti-Smoove threads/comments. "What's wrong with Josh".. "Smoove is dumbest player"..."Smoove must be traded"..."Smoove eats kittens for breakfast"

B and S. - Let's look at the Stats for all of our "Bigs" against the 76ers:

Smoove went: 6-14 shooting, 4-5 free throws, 5 rebounds, 7 assists (16-5-7) not great on the shooting precentage - but not hideous....he also played the most minutes of any player on our team.

Marvin went 5-10 shooting, 0-0 on free throws, 10 rebounds, 0 assists (10-10-0) good shooting and good rebounding.

Zaza played a little over 11 minutes...0-2...2-2...2 rebs...0 assists (2-2-0)

JP played 13 and a half minutes...0-3...0-0...0 rebounds...0 assists (0-0-0)

Collins - DNP/CD...Al Horford - inactive/injury....E. Thomas - inactive.

Obviously the only two "Bigs" who were even in the game (so to speak) were Marvin and Smoove. No other bigs contributed at all.

and of the two "Bigs" who did contribute - one is 6-8 and the other is 6-9.... (TY BK)

the fact that you are trying to use ZAZA or POWELL or COLLINS is exactly why Josh catches so much flack and deserves it .

He had the most potential of anyone on the squad and people are realizing that the odds of him reaching that potential has dropped to maybe 5% . Nevermind the fact that he still is playing the game like some guy fresh out of high school not some well paid veteran ready to lead the team out of the first rd .

So while of course Josh put up better numbers than the scrubs you listed HES SUPPOSED TO and while he is still a very good player he is falling way short of the player everyone thought he would become and doesn't seem interested in becoming much else .

He should be pressed and pushed hard as possible as hes the key to this team either stalling out and free falling or making it out of the 2nd rd .

I dont think its a matter if could JJ and Ellis work because im sure they could but the entire point of trading Smoove would be to change things up however acquiring Ellis would just be a continuance of things we are already doing at a high level .

before I would trade Josh for Ellis I would trade Josh to Houston for Brooks and any two Brad Miller,Battier,Scola,Chuck Hayes

this adds a young quality pg to the team,veteran toughness,defense ,rebounding and scoring.

I then give us a 2 year window and its bring on Miami and Boston .

If Crawford played only 25 minutes per game he would have been much less likely to win 6th man or lead the team in scoring. Scoring at his current per minute rate if Jamal played 25 minutes he would be averaging 13 ppg. Flip averaged 12.

Well see thats the problem . Crawford is a STARTING CALIBER SG that comes off our bench whereas Flip was a minimum minute role player .

You do know that Flip is not even in the nba anymore and Jamal is on his way to a 2nd 6th man of the year award ?

Its true that Jamal couldve just played 25 mpg but its also true that players of jamals caliber dont play ONLY 25 mpg .

Jamal is a elite score ELITE yes I said said thats right its not a typo ELITE SCORER . He may not rebound well but he scores as good as anyone in the league and that in itself is extremely valuable .

I saw last night where he is leading all bench scorers again and has the most 20 pt games of the bench AGAIN and that there has been ONE 30 pt game off the bench from another player this year ..Well Jamal has three and its not even the all star break yet .

You keep talking about the things he cant do when the things he can do are up there with the best in the league.

The problem with Jamal is that he does nothing other than scoring. He is one of the worst rebounding guards in the league and doesn't play defense. he is a totally one dimensional player.

Smith can have a major impact on a game even when he isn't shooting well. Jamal can't and doesn't even try.

So he should lead the league in rebounding for a guard OFF THE BENCH ? HE DOES PLAY DEFENSE !! Hes not a lockdown defender but this logic is quite disturbing because hes out there torching guys left or right are you saying they dont play any defense ? How does this two faced twisted logic work exactly ? When jamal scored those 3 straight baskets on Hinrich does that mean Hinrioch plays no defense ?

As i said already jamals shot was off the previous game he led us in assists and had 3 steals ? The double standards you are pushing is pretty funny .

Im not even going to mention how the starters blew the lead coming out of haltime and it was a tie game when jamal entered and those 3 straight baskets to to end the 3rd gave the hawks the lead back for good even though his shot was off . Its not always about percentages or filling the stat sheets its about when and how you do it .

Jamal comes of the bench and performs his role about as consistently as anyone in history