TheFuzz

? I said it's both. Mostly talent. Serge Ibaka and Tyson Chandler are less talented than Josh and Horford. All I'm saying is Josh and Horford simply aren't a good enough tandem to contend with their size issues. Horford is fine at the 5 if we get a superstar elsewhere. But if we're not getting a superstar, and we go the "Pistons" route, we need more physicality inside. I don't know where the condescending comment about hoping for Howard to fall into our laps came from. For what it's worth, I really don't like Howard and didn't expect us to get him in a trade anyway.

Is that it? He's always impressed me when I've watched him. I don't have Synergy Sports or anything so I usually go by the eye test. I will say Marc and Horford would be a dynamite fit together.

Melo gets a lot of hate. The dude is a pure scorer that needs a good coach and a solid supporting cast. We know Mike Woodson is not that. Stoudemire wouldn't know defense or rebounding if it hit him in the face. He is (at worst) on Joe's level. But yea, New York ain't great.

Joakim Noah? Horford is a lot better than most of these players. The only players he's obviously behind IMO are Howard, Bynum and Gasol. There's some debate as to whether Bogut, Chandler, and Hibbert might be better than him. Cousins could get there. Al's not a true center, but neither is Monroe.

Unfortunately, I don't think this will change any time soon. Stars sell tickets. For whatever reason, watching the Spurs beautifully weave the basketball around the court doesn't.

On topic, Horford is probably a top 5 center. But we still either need a superstar or need more size (or maybe both). Josh and Horford aren't good enough to make up for a size disadvantage and aren't big enough to make up for a skill disadvantage. Sure, other teams are rolling out smaller frontcourts, but when you're playing Bosh at the 5 (who is comparable to both Horford and Josh) and Lebron at the 4 (no comment necessary), we still need help.

Is there really no debating that? Josh is a better shot-blocker at PF, and maybe a better passer and MAYBE a better post scorer, but that's not hands down. Al is hands down a better post-defender and shooter, and a better garbage man and free-throw shooter. They're comparable slashers. Am I missing something? Al would lose a slight speed advantage by moving to 4 but would gain a significant size advantage and since he can step out on players like Rondo I have little doubt he would have zero trouble guarding speedier 4s. I'm not saying that Horford is DEFINITELY a better 4 than Josh (though I think he is), but there is certainly a debate. We've been debating it for ages.

Trading Josh to the Celtics ain't worth it if Rondo ain't coming back (and he's not). Bradley's not that good.Edit: Unless we're having a fire sale and decide to really tank it. And tanking ain't happening.

I somewhat agree with this. Either Josh agrees to take a bit less than the max, or he's traded/signed and traded. There's not a whole lot of trade value for him right now, but we could get a couple of role players and a pick or something to help us stay under the cap next year.

True. I didn't mean he would just camp out just in front of the three point line all game. He could just space for Josh in a few sets. Obviously, with Tolliver now we've found our guy.

Hopefully not too near it. I love Josh as much as the next guy, but he's really just not that good. It would be a lot like signing Joe to the max. Hopefully Josh improves enough this season to make me eat crow.

Well, Horford can function as a stretch 4.Slightly related, I read somewhere Atlanta was interested in Fesenko, let me see if I can find a link...Edit: Chuck Testa. That was an old Yahoo sports article.

They don't have their pick this year (maybe next years), but Bargs' value is pretty low. Josh is worth more than Bargnani probably. If we could get Bargnani without trading Josh and roll with a Horford/Bargs/Smith front court that'd be pretty sick, but I don't see that happening.

I agree. I really like Teague and he could become better than Harris, but I think we should just keep whoever will be cheaper and trade the other one in a deal for a legit player. Teague could almost certainly net the better player.

Agreed (except maybe on Holliday), but PGs in general aren't great defenders. There's Westbrook and Rondo, and then there's Rubio and Holliday. Maybe Teague, he's got some learning to do.

Maybe. I still say Rubio's a much better overall defender than Teague, and Rubio's got a real nice wingspan. If in 2 years he starts sucking it up defensively then sure. But he looks good defending point guards and assuming leg injuries don't catch up to him I don't see that changing much.

Yea, Rubio is one of the best defensive PGs in the league (starting at least). He's pretty much Rondo 2.0 with the potential to be a better shooter while being less athletic.

You're really underrating Conley. And Rubio, I think. Minnesota is a playoff team in the WEST with Rubio last year, and all they had was Love and Pekovic.

Good stuff. We need some attitude.

Edit: I guess I'll add a list.PaulRondoRoseWilliamsParkerWestbrookNashLawsonConleyLowryCurryRubioIrvingWallThen you got people like Teague, Holliday, Jennings, Dragic and Lin.

Agreed on Irving and Curry. I'd say Teague is around the 15-20 mark with the potential to be much better. Hopefully he gets there, but having a solid PG in this league ain't that hard. There are A LOT of good PGs and PFs in the leage. There aren't many 2s, 3s, or 5s.

Hm.In terms of people who actually play the 4 position (as in, not any 4s who are playing center), I'd say it's something like this...DirkGasolLoveLamarcus AldridgeGriffinJoshJosh, Griffin, and Aldridge are all pretty interchangeable. Come playoff time, I'd still take Duncan, KG, and Bosh over him, though they have started to play center more. And I might take Horford at 4 over Josh too (not trying to start that debate, just stating an opinion).There are a bunch of solid 4s in the league now.

I think Al should be our "leader," while Josh should be our fire, if that makes any sense. Josh can get people fired up, but Horford has more room to hold people accountable.

In a vacuum, right now, Pau is better than Josh. He was A LOT better than him for a long time. But between the contract and age Pau ain't better enough to justify a swap, especially with Marvin included (yes, I did just say especially in a good way involving Marvin).