TheNorthCydeRises

Bibby Crawford JJ Marvin Smith ( Josh, not Joe ) Super athletic/run and gun type of lineup that could give people fits, especially if Crawford really looks to drive the basketball, instead of shooting that schizophrenic jumper. An ideal lineup against a team trying to go small.

I've been trying to tell you guys what is up. One of the bigs is probably going to be Solo . . . the other, a free agent scrub. When Sund decided to trade Speedy and Law for Crawford instead of a quality big, it pretty much limited us to scrub-like big men. And Sund isnt willing to overpay for a scrub big man. Might as well tell Marvin and Josh to hit the weight room. They just need to start playing tougher.

If Woody can get this dude to play efficient basketball, he'll be a Coach of the Year candidate. He's a guy that has good individual offensive skills. So if Woody can harness that into something efficient, it'll definitely help the Hawks

The bargain, is retaining a guy like Marvin at a reasonable price right now, than possibly paying an inflated price for him next year, or flat out losing him outright. ( gsuteke explained this perfectly in the other thread ) I honestly think he'll reject any offer under 8 million anyway, and do exactly like Ben Gordon did last year, and take his chances as a UFA. But I do think he is easily worth 8 million to the Hawks right now, because he can effectively play 2 positions. The 800 lb elephant in the room that you're not addressing, is that we only have 3 quality big men on the frontline. Solo is too much of a hack machine to be counted on. That makes Marvin the default 4th best big man. 3rd, if you want to rank them talent wise, because Marvin is a better 4, than Zaza is a 5. The only reason why Zaza has to be kept, is because he's the only quality big with size that we have. It's not because he's necessarily a talented big. That's why he got a contract that still paid him under 5 million a year. But you say that you haven't said get rid of Marvin? LOL. OK man. I never said that I wouldn't mind letting the market dictate his value either. But the question was . . . has he earned an 8 million contract from the Hawks. I said "close, but not quite" . . . but in terms of team value, he's easily worth 8 million because of his ability to both play the 3 and the 4 So let's lock you down right now. Memphis, unhappy with the way Thabeet played in summer league, offers Marvin a 4yr - 32 million dollar contract sometime in August. Do you match? I say YES. What do you say?

How many of those 8 road games did we win during that stretch? 2? You can go even further with this. Not only did the Hawks play more home games during that stretch, if you look at the total games Marvin played, he played in 28 home games . . . compared to 33 road games. I believe he's the only Hawk in the regular rotation to have played in more road games, than home games. Go even further. Look at some of the games Marvin played in and LOST, when either Smith or Horford were out. In at least half of those games Marvin was acutally one of the Hawks who had a good game. I specifically remember a road loss to either the Knicks or Nets in January, in which Marvin and Smith were carrying the team offensively. But the reason we lost was because both JJ and Bibby had a HORRIBLE game. People better remember the 2009 playoffs around here. How when Horford went down for the count, this team almost got knocked out in the Miami series and couldn't do a damn thing with Cleveland. The mythical big man that would help this team, isn't coming, because people want Smith or Horford . . and we're not willing to trade either one of them for a real good big man. No Amare. No Andersen. No Wilcox. No Kaman. None of those guys. Like I've been saying, barring a major trade, the big man is going to be Solo, and probably some other dude that no one wants. And if that's the case, we better keep a 6-9 SF that can also play PF well enough to keep us afloat. That's his worth. That's why the guy is easily worth 8 million to the Hawks.

@ Hotlanta . . . Marvin was 6 - 13 FG and 11 - 14 FT in that Minnesota game. Plus he grabbed 10 rebounds.

And of those players listed, these guys can also effectively play the 4: - LeBron ( CLE ) - Lewis ( ORL ) - Anthony ( DEN ) - G. Wallace ( CHA ) - Diaw ( CHA ) - Kirilenko ( UTH ) - Odom ( LAL ) - Artest ( HOU/LAL ) - Marion ( TOR/DAL ) - Beasley ( MIA ) and Marvin ( ATL ) And the biggest skewing of the truth being told on this board, is about the team supposedly playing better without Marvin. The Hawks at one point last year were 22 - 11. During that time, it was a relatively healthy starting group that were winning games for us. When the Hawks started to play below .500 basketball, it was NOT because of Marvin's play. January and Feburary saw us play a ton of road games that we didn't win, the Hawks achille's heel of course. If memory serves me correct, that was the time in which JJ really started to play erratic, Horford wasn't 100%, and Smoove started having MAJOR problems from the FT line. But other than his 3 point percantage coming back to earth, Marvin's numbers stayed consistent across the board. Even in his worst month of basketball ( Feburary ), in which he shot 41% FG, he still managed to average more ppg that month ( 15 ppg ), than in any month of the season. We even lost 2 games in that month in which Marvin had damn good games. The win streak in March coincided with all of those consecutive home games we had in a row, just like it did in December. People like to cite those games as proof that we don't need Marvin. I contend that if Marvin played during that stretch, and was healthy, we'd still win the majority of those home games. But even during that stretch, we were sill having problems winning on the road. The playoffs pretty much proved that we need Marvin. As great as Flip was from Jan - March, he started to dramatically tail off in April, and flat out disappeared in the Playoffs ( which is probably the reason why he is no longer here ). Zaza had a few good games and one great game, but was outmatched most of the playoffs. Evans, while a decent player, shouldn't be starting on the Hawks. And the fact that we still don't have a center good enough to cause a move of Horford to PF and Smith to SF, means that we still need length at our wing positions to compensate for the lack of center. Marvin, right now, is a decent and reliable starter in the NBA. With a guy like Bargnani getting 10 million a year, Marvin is worth 7 - 8 million per year easily. Decent, but not star guys, usually get paid that money. The true point not being talked about in this thread, is that the people that don't want to give Marvin 8 million, would probably be just as vocal if we were giving him 7 million. The truth is that they simply wouldn't approve of any number given to Marvin, because they want him gone . . . period.

I'm glad that I wasn't the only one thinking this. While Smitty can definitely teach him the fundamentals of the post up game, I'd rather see Smoove being taught and guarded by someone bigger and much stronger than him. Someone that could really bang him around, possibly making him tougher in the post. Smitty relied a lot on the fadeaway jumper, when he used to post smaller guards up. I personally don't want to see Smoove shooting fadeaways, when he can barely shoot when wide open. Smitty would be a good teacher for Marvin and JJ, because both of those guys would see the smaller type guys guarding them, like Smitty did. I'd much rather for Smith to work strictly with Dream, or maybe bring Kevin McHale down to ATL, as a "special assistant", to work with both Smoove and Horford. Then again, we'll just have to take what we can get. At least Smitty has seen him play hundreds of times.

Has Marvin earned 8 million? No. Close, but no. Is he worth 8 million to us? Definitely. I haven't read this entire thread, so I don't know if anyone has mentioned this yet. But Marvin is worth 8 million, especially to us, because he's a 6-9 forward that can play both the 3 and the 4 effectively for us. We still don't have a 4th big man on this team that we can trust on a nightly basis, so Marvin has to fill that role. The interesting thing about Marvin, is that he seems to play better offensively when Smoove isn't on the floor with him. He also has a higher PER when playing PF, than he does when he plays SF, showing just how he can effectively play both positions. If we lose Marvin, we lose a consistent outside shooter, rebounder, and perimeter defender, all in one swoop. So he might be worth 6 million as a SF alone. But because he can also play the 4, that's worth 1.5 - 2 million more in itself. If Marvin can improve on his 3 point shooting, which I think he can, we now have a very dangerous player who can make people pay dearly for doubling JJ. As Diesel said at the beginning of last year, he'd be our 3 point specialist. Marvin doesn't do anything extroordinary. He's just consistent as hell across the board. And when you're as consistent as Marvin in multiple areas, you can justify getting an 8 million contract for 5 years. More than likely, he'll live up to that contract, than to play well above or well below it.

This thread reminds me of the movie "Hustle and Flow". In one of the final scenes of the movie, Anthony Amderson is talking to Terrence Howard, who is in jail. Anthony shows him a pic of his baby daughter that Terrence's girl had while he was in jail. Anthony then asks Terrence about his meeting with Skinny Black ( Ludacris ), specifically asking him had he ever met Skinny before. Terrence then goes into this analogy about his baby daughter when she's older, asking him if she could be President. Terrence says ( paraphrasing ): "And when my baby girl asks me . . 'Daddy, can I be President' . . I'm gonna look her dead in her eye, and I'M GONNA LIE . . because as her Father, I'm gonna tell her she can be anything she wants to be." So some on Hawksquawk wants Woody to be like Terrence, and lie to them. Lie . . . make us feel good Woody, when the media picks us 3rd in the division. Some of you actually have such a disdain for Woody, that you believe that he's gonna write 4th PLACE on the team's white/blackboard before every game, so that they can play to that level. It's hilarious. Almost as hilarious as when Woody used to get ripped constantly about his "substitution patterns." Like he was the only coach in the history of basketball that did this. But then, when they would watch the Lakers or the Spurs, and see that they had timed substitutions, the Squawk would be like . . . "oh, I see Phil and Pop do this, so I guess it's OK for Woody to do it too." Now look at the Squawk. Some actually want to mandate that Woody plays Teague 8 - 15 minutes a game. Well, there's no way that can be done, without a timed substitution pattern. Nevertheless . . .Woody is the one that is an idiot.

This, along with the injuries, is the reason why he didn't play much in Atlanta. But it's always easier for some Hawks fans to blame "Mean Ol' Woody" when a player plays poorly, or doesn't play up to his potential. LOL @ saying that the Warriors traded for him, because they believed he could make an impact. No they didn't. They traded for him . . . .to get rid of Crawford.

I'll put money on it that at least one writer/blogger will have us finishing LAST in the division. And I didn't know that Shane's brother, Tony Battier, played for the Magic.

And everybody who is against Woodson, flat out refuses to see that the team has steadily improved over the last 5 years, and totally discounts the playoff appearances . . simply because they hate Woody, and think this team could be better. No credit is given to Woody for anything . . . nada. Everything that is wrong with this team, it's his fault. Everything that is right with this team, is due to the players only. Don't act like the Woody haters are objective, when it comes to talking about Woody, because they're not.

This is exactly what I, and others are talking about. You call that "loser talk". I call that "realism". The reason why some people wouldn't mind trading Smith, is because he doesn't have a banger mentality to go up against the Howards, Shaqs, and Garnetts of the world. The reason why some people didn't want Bibby back, is because he can't guard the Nelsons, Mo Williams, Rondos of the world. That's just realism man. Hope is good for a fan to have. But we also have to be real about things. Hope is expecting Smoove to, all of a sudden, play like a badazz in the mold of Charles Oakley, when he plays more like Rashard Lewis ( without the jumpshot ). Hope is expecting JJ to play to the level of LeBron and Wade on a nightly basis. Hope is expecting Horford to be a dominant center on both offense and defense. Let's deal with realism, before we get our hopes up. Being real, is to expect the Hawks to win 50 - 54 games next year . . . with at least an appearance in the 2nd round of the playoffs. Could we do better? Yes. But guys are going to have to dramatically improve, for us to be at championship level. That's just being real. You bring up the Detroit example, but Detroit arguably constructed one of the best defensive teams of all time. And Wallace, while he loved to shoot jumpers, gave them an added dimension in the low post, that the team didn't have before. Plus he was a good post defender. That was all that team needed to get over the hump. Enjoy next season. Go to the games in person. Cheer on the Hawks. But the reason why people want to get a big man here, is because they know that's the one piece that we really need, if we're going to challenge legitimately for a title.

I think all in the top 5 are capable of winning 62+ games. The bottom 5 should win at least 50 games.

Based on the current rosters of these teams, here's how I'd rank them right now: 1) Lakers 2) Spurs 3) Celtics 4) Magic 5) Cavs 6) Nuggets 7) Mavericks 8) Blazers 9) Hawks 10) Hornets

That's the thing though Red. This team isn't going to play at a lesser level, simply because Woody said something about hoping to get the #4 seed. Matter of fact, Larry Brown is NOTORIOUS for doing the exact same thing that Woody does. Lou Holtz was bad as well about overhyping his opponent. That doesn't mean that they were setting the bar low for their teams. LOL . . you have a lot of "if's" in that list. You're right, all of that could happen. It's not realistic to believe that, but it could happen. Talk is cheap anyway. The only thing that matters is how this team plays on the court, not what they say off the court. The next true hurdle for this team, is to be a .500 or better team on the road. Before that happens, no one should expect a "championship run". Maybe that's where a guy like Crawford can come up big for us, by coming up big on the road. Right now, I see the Hawks in the same light as the Utah Jazz. We have a chance next year to become a 35 win home team. But like with the Jazz, it's gonna be the road games that will determine our fate and our seeding. And like the Jazz, were definitely behind the elite teams in our conference. But as the season progressees, we'll see where the chips fall.

That's a good question. Another question is how much of his coaching has been influenced by not having a legit PG running the show here. I mean damn . . he had to use Childress as a pseudo-PG before, because of our PG problems. The Hawks are 62 - 54 since the acquisition of Bibby. In the last 102 games, the Hawks are 58 - 44. Imagine the Hawks record, if we had just one legit guy we could throw the ball down low to, that could score on the low block?

I give Woody the benefit of the doubt. Always have on this board. Year 1, he had nothing but Antoine Walker. No way we were winning close to 30 games with that squad . . so he got the benefit of the dobut Year 2, we got JJ and had Harrington, surrounded by a bunch of kids . . . so I gave him the benefit of the doubt Year 3, was a little disappointing, but the JJ injury in March kept our win total down than what it probably would've been . . . so I gave him the benefit of the doubt Year 4, the injury bug hit this team, kind of throwing us off a little. But the Bibby trade saved us, and we won 3 playoff games . . . so I gave him the benefit of the doubt Year 5, we improve dramatically and were a top 4 seed in the East, advanced to the 2nd round, but were hampered by injuries in the Cleveland series . . . so I DEFINITELY give him the benefit of the doubt. So if in year 6 of "Woodyball" we win 50+ games and battle one of the Big 3 to the death in the 2nd round . . I have to give him the benefit of the doubt again. But he's going to be crucified on this board, if we don't make it to the Eastern Conference Finals . . . even if it's obvious that the Big 3 are better than we are. I'm just interested in how he handles Crawford, because that will be his biggest challenge next year.

I think one of the bigs is definitely SOLO . . . and the other will be another free agent type power forward/center. I'd rather have Solo than Petro.

They definitely believe it. Otherwise, they wouldn't be saying the things that they are saying in this thread. Woody was probably one of the few people in the entire world about 15 months ago, that believed that we could take a few games from the mighty Boston Celtics ( even after we got destroyed in Boston in those first 2 games ).

You need to re-read the comments in this thread. That's exactly what they want to hear. If Woody said nothing, people would be upset about that as well. So Woody had 2 options: 1) Tell the truth . . or 2) lie He chose to tell the truth. Now the crazy thing . . is that people on this board actually believe that Woody is going to tell the team all season that, "we're not good enough to beat the Big 3, so we should simply settle for the #4 spot". That's what the fan base believes that he's telling the guys, which in turn, is somehow "making" the guys play at a level under what they should be playing at. Woody set the goal last year of at least winning 50 games. I guess he was a loser for setting that goal too, instead of setting a goal of 55 - 60 wins. People will always find something wrong with what Woody does. It's funny to me. Sometimes, people just need to step back, and see how things read on this board. It's incredible. We won 37 games a mere 2 years ago. Now people want us to contend for a championship, without making a major roster move or obtaining some superstar player in the draft? I can't ever remember that happening with any team, within a 2-year span. Woody is a realist. And the fans hate him for it.

The question then becomes, who would you rather sign to a 4-year deal? Lamar or Marvin. Lamar definitely has more of an array of skills that he brings to the table. Lamar is someone that you could also run iso with, because of his size and passing ability. And he's still not even 30 yet. I think he's definitely better than Marvin from an all-around skill standpoint. With Marvin, the question is still . . . how good can this guy become? Marvin is a better shooter than Lamar. He's a little more athletic as well. I'll have to give the toughness edge to Marvin as well. Lamar's game is at his peak, while Marvin hasn't peaked yet. So the question is simply who do you think will produce at a higher level, over a 4-year span? While I believe that guy will be Marvin, Lamar RIGHT NOW would make us a very interesting team next year. Possibly a championship caliber team.

LOL . . that's exactly what they want him to do. Fan base: "Woody . . tell us that we're going to the NBA Finals. Tell us that you'll play 9 - 10 people. Tell us that Smoove will make the All-Star team. Tell us that the moves that Cleveland and Orlando made, won't make them any better. Tell us that Jamal Crawford will shoot a career high 48% FG and 43% 3FG, and that he'll win the 6th man of the year award. Tell us that we're going to beat the Lakers and bring a championship to Atlanta. Tell us Woody. Tell us. Make us feel good."

( from that article ) Woody is one of the best coaches I've played for. - Mike Bibby