TheNorthCydeRises

Do the right thing Rick, Trade the dang pick.

Horford is an athletic version of Kurt Thomas in his prime.

Oh I actually agree with you. Smoove is "soft", for the most part. And he doesn't box out. That is something that he can learn to do though. I'm never expecting him to develop a jumper, but he could become a much better rebounder, if he'd box people out and show the desire to get rebounds.

I'll keep saying this, until people get it. Smith either needs to either play like Shawn Kemp . . or Shawn Marion. These are the only 2 players in NBA history, who you can possibly compare him to in my eyes, especially from an athletic standpoint. But there are a lot of factors in why Marion and Kemp were successful, and why Smith may or may not get to their level. The easiest thing to look at first, is how each player played in their best year. Marion's best year ( 05 - 06 ) 21.8 ppg . . 11.8 rpg ( 3.1 OFF ) . . 1.8 apg . . 2.0 bpg . . 1.7 spg - - - - 52.5 FG% ( 16.9 ATT ). . 80.9 FT% ( 3.7 ATT ) . . 33.1 3FG% ( 96 - 290 ) Kemp's best year ( 95 - 96 ) 19.6 ppg . . 11.4 rpg ( 3.5 OFF ) . . 2.2 apg . . 1.2 spg . . 1.6bpg - - - - 56.1 FG% ( 11.9 ATT ) . . 74.2 FT % ( 8.4 ATT ) . . 41.7 3FG% ( 5 - 12 ) Smith's best year ( 07 -08 ) 17.2 ppg . . 8.2 rpb ( 2.0 OFF ) . . 3.4 apg . . 1.5 spg . . 2.8 bpg - - - - 45.7 FG% ( 14.2 ATT ) . . 71.0 FT% ( 5.9 ATT ) . . 25.3 3FG% ( 25 - 99 ) Don't worry about the ppg number, because to me, that's irrevelant. It's all of the little things that might lead to him scoring or not scoring as much as he can, that's more relevant. The biggest thing to me that has always stood out about Smith, is his lack of offensive rebounding while playing the 4. You'd think with his athleticism, that he could easily do what Kemp and Marion did on the boards, especially the offensive boards. You'd think that he could easily average 10 rpg, simply off of his freakish athleticism. But rebounding is about DESIRE, not about the system. All of the great rebounders in this league, crashed the boards relentlessly, and got cheap buckets because of that, regardless of where they played. Offensive rebounds also mean extra possessions for your team. With Marion, he took advantage of his speed, his desire to crash the boards, and was a decent enough outside shooter, to parlay that into an All-Star appearance in 05-06. With Kemp, he took advantage of his speed, and used his power and aggressiveness, to be an effective scorer, and to get to the FT line to get his points. Smith needs to understand how he can best get his points. Until that happens, he'll be a player that drives people crazy on the offensive end. And he'll be a player that you can't fully trust on that end of the floor. **************************** The 2nd thing to look at, is to see the point guard that they played with during that same season: - Steve Nash ( Marion ) - 10.5 apg ( #1 in the NBA ) - Gary Payton ( Kemp ) - 7.5 apg - Joe Johnson ( Marion ) - 5.8 apg . . Mike Bibby - 6.5 apg And this is where the ghost of Chris Paul looms like a Category 5 hurricane over this franchise. While there isn't a guarantee that Paul would be good enough to get this team to Championship level ( although we'd definitely be an Eastern Conference Finals contender ), a guy like Chris Paul could make a guy like Josh Smith look like a superstar at times, and possibly could get him to a few All-Star games. In a guard-friendly offense like what Woody runs, Paul would have the ability to shoot or pass at his discretion. With his superior passing ability, and his willingness to pass, he could easily turn Smith into a devestating player on the fast break, and get him very easy looks within the half court offense, IF Smith is willing to mix it up a little more on the inside. The lobs that Bibby throws on occasion, would be a common occurence with Paul. Paul would also demand the ball, when Smith would want to take off by himself with the ball. I really think people cannot underestimate what the lack of a good balanced PG here, would have on Smith's game, and on the perception of Woody having a "bad system". Bibby is too much of a gunner, to help Smith reach his potential. If the Hawks could somehow get their hands on Andre Miller, you'd see Smith's offensive game improve, because Miller will get Smith a lot of easy shots. Either that, or if Acie Law improves dramatically over the summer, and shows he can be that passing PG that could improve Smith's game. ******************** The 3rd thing to look at, is the pace that each team played during that season. ( according to basketball-reference.com ) - Seattle - 93.8 ( 3rd in league ) - Phoenix - 95.8 ( 1st in league ) - Atlanta - 91.1 ( 18th in league ) This is where the "if Smith played in a different system" people, would speak up. Ironically, in 08 - 09, we played at an even slower pace ( 89.6 - 24th in league ), but won 10 more games. People don't like where Smith is set up in Woody's offense, seeing that he does find himself on the outside a little too much. The argument is that his position in the offense, and the slower pace, contributes to his missuse with the Hawks. But Smith's game is an enigma. One of the other things I've said for the past 2 years, is that Smith's game offensively, actually resembles Boris Diaw's ( believe it or not ). Both of those guys live off of driving to the hole, to get most of their points. Unfortunately, Diaw has also developed an outside shot, while Smith's shot seems to still be horrible. So Smith would have to play in a system in which he could get some space to run the floor, or play with a great passing PG to get him easy looks on the inside. The obvious place for Smith to maximize his skills, would be to play in a place where the pace is high, or with a great PG. - Golden St. 98.2 ( 1st ) . . the ideal system for Smith to play in - NY Knicks 96.7 ( 2nd ) . . PG: Duhon - Indiana 96.5 ( 3rd ) . . PG: Ford/Jack - Phoenix 96.0 ( 4th ) . . PG: Nash - Denver 94.3 ( 5th ) . . PG: Billups - LA Lakers 94.3 ( 5th ) . . triangle offense When people like Charles Barkley say that the decision may have to come down between JJ or Smoove, as to who we build around, I think this is what he is relating to. While JJ can function in a half-court system because of his array of skills, it's obvious that Smith would excel in an up-tempo system, mainly because of his atheticism. And here's the other thing. I think Smith desires very much to be "the man" in Atlanta. The reason why he takes some of the shots he takes, is because he's not afraid to take those shots. That's actually a good quality for a player to have. The problem is, he thinks he's a much better shooter than what he really is. On the flip side, guys like Marvin and Horford are more willing to play a complimentary role on the squad. This is not to say that Marvin and Horford are more important than Smith, because they're not, from an individual standpoint. Collectively though, they might be the type of guys you'd want to have around a JJ, if everything is still ran through him. I don't agree with nbasuperstar much, but he may be dead on, with his comments in another thread. "Getting a new coach will not change Smith, in order for Smith to reach his potential in Atlanta, we would have to build around him. That just isn't an option, it's best if he goes to a system that already is playing with that style of play." So this is directly relating to what Barkley was referring to. Because Smith isn't as skilled as JJ in the halfcourt, the only way to maximize what he does, is to play fast. But the Hawks dramatically improved, when they played slower, and got players who can play around JJ. As long as the offense is ran through JJ, Smith may never reach his potential. And it alludes back to the Marion/Kemp issue. As a hybrid 3/4, Marion shot respectively from the outside, but crashed the boards and got out on the break. As a hybrid 4/5, Kemp had enough post moves to be effective on the inside, and also crashed the boards and got out on the break. Smith has a horrible shot and a limited post game. But he can get to the rim by beating slower 4's off the dribble. And he is a game-changing energy player at times with his dunks and blocked shots. So it's like I've always said . . he either needs to be a "souped-up" Shawn Marion, or play like Kemp. But to play like Marion, he'll have to play with energy ALL THE TIME . . and to play like Kemp, he'll have to be willing to mix it up on the inside ALL THE TIME. To me though, the key for him is the rebounding. If he set a goal to be a 10+ rpg guy, and really improve his offensive rebounding, he could be the type of player that everyone wants him to be here in ATL. But that means that he would have to understand that he is a complimentary player, and not the go-to player. The one remedy for this, would be to get a PG who could maximize the effectiveness of both JJ and Smith. But if we don't get that guy, we're still going to have to run most everything through JJ, which will limit what Smith can do ( unless he develops a post game ).

I don't see Orlando parting with Rafer. If anything, they'll use him as trade bait, if he and Nelson doesn't mesh next season. Right team . . wrong Magic PG. We already know which PG Woody would prefer.

LOL. You know who the Dream are? They're the equivalent of the Washington Wizards back in 2000, when Jordan came out of retirement, and decided to play for the Wizards. While that team didn't become a title contender, they became instantly better. Chamique Holdsclaw = Jordan Remember, Chamique was one of the best players in the world about 5 years ago. But she's always suffered through bits of depression, which led her to leaving the WNBA on two occasions. To be honest, the Dream simply took advantage of the fact that Holdsclaw just happened to live in Atlanta. So they pretty much obtained a player who is still at borderline WNBA All-Star caliber, without giving up anything in return. LOL . . it would be like the Hawks adding Amare to our lineup, and not having to trade away Smoove, JJ, Horford, or Marvin to get him.

I totally agree. Unless DeJuan Blair or Johnny Flynn freefalls in this draft, I want Sund to trade the pick. And I agree that Speedy should be part of the equation. The team I'm looking squarely at, are the Clippers. Send Speedy + 19th pick ( and a filler if necessary ) . . for Marcus Camby We need some extra bodies on the frontline. Preferably a defensive and rebounding body. Camby is still an excellent rebounder, and he can block some shots. He's not the best on the ball defender in the world though. Having said that, he'd be an immeadiate upgrade over Zaza on both offense and defense. He has an expiring contract, so if he doesn't work out, we could just simply let him go after the 2010 season. Most important though, the Hawks ( if the Cavs make the move for Shaq ), are going to have to address the frontline. It's bad enough that we have to contend with Howard. Add Shaq to the East ( even at his age right now ), and that's just another major obstacle we'd have to overcoome in the playoffs. TRADE THE PICK SUND !! GET US A VETERAN FRONTLINE PLAYER LIKE CAMBY !!

Hmmmm .. so we've explored the Frontcourt stats . . then the PER . . then the TS%. So why don't I add what I think is a key reason why our frontcourt don't get as many touches as people think they should . . Percentage of Field Goals Made that came via an Assist When you look at that, this is how it looks: JJ - 39% of made shots came via an assist Flip - 41% Bibby - 62% Smith - 65% Horford - 66% Williams - 68% Since Diesel has been bringing the Lakers up, let's look at their main guys, with this stat as the focus. Kobe- 37% of made shots came via an assist Gasol - 57% Fisher - 59% Odom - 60% Ariza - 64% Bynum - 64% With the Hawks, you could surmise that our frontcourt is HIGHLY DEPENDENT on having others set up makeable shots for them already. That's because they have trouble creating shots for themselves, that they can make. Now they can get to the FT line, and score that way. But as far as taking a shot with somebody D'ing them up? Nah, that's not their strength. If they can't get a foul call, going to the basket, our frontcourt is relatively ineffective in creating their own shot. This is part of the reason why JJ holds he ball so long, and draw double teams . . so that others can get easier shots. To be honest, the better solution may be to get JJ better looks on the perimeter. But to do that, our frontcourt has to show the ability to be able to score on people one on one, when down on the block. Until that day comes, the Hawk guards are still going to be looked upon to jack up a lot of shots, and score.

Of course JJ is going to be ranked that high on the free agent list in 2010. It's like some in this fan base forgets how versitile of a player JJ is, just because he had a bad playoff stretch this year. Like I told people a few weeks back, if JJ doesn't fall completely off the Earth, he's going to be one of the most sought after FA's in 2010. AND HE'S GOING TO GET PAID!! I've said for a few years on this board, that JJ is the most underappreciated Hawk on the roster. Hopefully, Sund will give him his 85 - 90 million contract, and lock him up long before he hits the market.

LOL Do all of that, and trade JJ + a re-signed Marvin . . for Kobe. Draft Dejuan Blair, if he falls that far. Re-sign Flip for around 4 - 5 mill. Convince Chill to bring his azz back here. Hawks lineup: G - Flip G - Kobe F - Chill F - Smith C - Horford Bench G - Acie F - Blair F - Evans C - Morris ( cause he'll have to play at times, just for size ) Lakers lineup: G - Fisher G - JJ F - Marvin F - Gasol C - Bynum Bench F - Ariza G - Brown F - Walton G - Farmar Damn . . I like the Laker team better . . almost.

I agree that you don't trade Josh Smith unless you get a star to replace him. That star needs to be a guy who plays more like a PF though. People keep saying that about Smoove, and the rest of the league, but that just isn't true for the most part. Most bad shooters in this league DON'T improve. Most bad decision making players, KEEP making bad decisions throughout their career. You can find instances where this isn't the case. But you can find many more where a bad shooter stays a bad shooter . . and a bad decision maker keeps making bad decisions. The two things I can say about Smoove this year, is that . . 1) he did try to play more aggressive at times, especially by dunking on people in traffic. That's the Shawn Kemp quality that he needs to play with. And . . 2) for most of the season, he did resist the temptation of jacking up a ton of threes, which dramatically raised his overrall FG%. That trend needs to continue into next year. Lay off the jumpshots, attack the rim, and try to get easy buckets off the fast break or off offensive rebounds. Let Horford and Marvin take the mid-range shots, while Smith racks up the rebounds.

Easily the best article I've ever seen done on Josh Smith. And I like the fact that he said that Smith doesn't cut into space toward the basket as the offense stalls. That's a great point. I wonder if he's being coached to do just that, but he doesn't do it. Most people would say that Woody isn't coaching him to do that. I've done that same jumpshot eFG% breakdown on this board, to illustrate that Smith probably isn't going to improve as a jumpshooter . . possibly EVER. And I think this is the 2nd year in a row that Smith has been at the bottom of that 82games.com list, as far as making his 2 point shots. It's like I've always said. Smoove should either play like Shawn Kemp and relentlessly attack the rim, or be a "souped-up" version of Shawn Marion, because he is so athletic. But he almost refuses to mix it up in the paint, via getting rebounds and attacking the rim. He does it in stretches, but he should do it all the time. He's as athletic as anybody in the league, but he plays a little too soft when playing the 4. And he doesn't shoot well enough or is able to create his own shot enough, to play the 3. So he should simply try to be more of an energy player, that can get offensive rebounds and put it back in the hole . . or be that guy who fills the lane on the fast break . . not lead the fast break. He can draw fouls though, when going to the hole. But he just doesn't go to the hole enough. Even with his performance in the playoffs, we saw the good and the bad of him. As great as he looked at times, when he decided to take the ball to the hole ( especially in the Cleveland series ), he still managed to have 53% of his shots be jumpers. And he had an eFG of 24% on his jumpshots. That's unacceptable. He's the Michael Vick of the Hawks. He's great to watch, when he's playing at the top of his game. You see what he needs to do to improve, but he just doesn't do it . . just like how Vick didn't. And like Vick, he sometimes doesn't play to his strengths as a player. That's why Vick was a very flawed star with the Falcons. And the same could be said for Smoove with the Hawks. But look at the Falcons. The world was supposed to end when Vick went down. And it did for a season. But then they get a QB that can actually play like a QB, and it's like the city has completely forgot about Vick, despite how popular he was.

I like the black, white, and red better . . . but that silver/gray uni is an interesting look. Maybe people could play around with the combination of colors, but keep the overall color of the uni a silver color. I think that looks better than the red jersey of the same design. I'd definitely buy a silver/gray jersey that looked like that.

Now I'm with you on that. I'd love to have Blair here. It's sad to say, but if we got Blair, he may instantly become our best low post player. Maybe not better all around than Horford and Smoove, but better on the low block as a scorer, than they are.

Atlas, Acie is in the same situation that Shelden was in. It got to a point with Shelden, that the team was better off opting to give Zaza more minutes, than Shelden, because Zaza could make things happen immeadiately with his energy. Shelden's lackluster play was part of the reason why Zaza was able to get out of Woody's "Doghouse". Shelden played pretty good when he got the minutes. I think Diesel pointed out once that when Shelden played 30+ minutes, he averaged almost a double-double. But we can't bench Josh Smith, in order for Shelden to play. So Shelden had to impact a game whether he plays 8 minutes or 28 minutes. Once Horford got here, and immeadately produced like people thought Shelden should've, it was a wrap for him. The same went for Salim. We didn't have time for Salim to go 0 - 4, before he "warmed up" and started to make shots. And it made no sense for Woody to opt to play Salim, when Lue could immeadiately come into a game and start making shots. In those first few games in the beginning of this season, Woody was definitely making a commitment to play Acie at then end of the first/beginning of the 2nd quarters . . and at the end of the 3rd/beginning of the 4th quarters. He was going to get 10 - 15 minutes a game easily. If he'd played well during those stretches, I doubt very seriously that Woody would've had a quick trigger and yanked him out of a game. But Acie made it easy on Woody. Acie just has to take the playing time, and maximize it. Simple as that.

I look at that 2 ways. And you're right about the injury situation. The Hawks will probably use that against Marvin, in negotiations. If we keep this team as is . . with JJ, Smith, Horford in the mix, then 9.5 million may be too high for the Hawks to match. I still say the run we make last year during March, still happens with Marvin, because almost all of the games we won, were at home. To me, the playoffs proved how much we need Marvin here, not the other way around. A healthy Marvin would've been a major asset, even when Horford went down. His shooting plus having another body to bang on the boards, may have made the Miami series a lot easier, while making the Cleveland series more competitive. But we also have to consider the JJ situation after 2010. I think someone mentioned this in another thread, but there is a possibility that JJ simply opts not to re-sign with Atlanta, and wants to go somewhere else. If that happens, Marvin's worth here would rise dramatically, because we're going to need as many scoreres as possible to replace JJ. If we lose JJ, I truly don't believe that we're going to be able to sign a major unrestricted free agent. So we may have to sign Marvin . . just in case. It may be better to overpay a little for Marvin, like we did with Smoove, than to risk losing him and not being able to sign a good UFA in 2010 ( if JJ bounces out ). We might have to overpay for Marvin . . then overpay for JJ . . just to make sure we stay at playoff level. It'll be interesting to see what the Hawks would do, if someone offered Marvin a 5/50 mill deal or a 4/39 mill deal. Very interesting.

Before the season started last year, I tried to bread down the minutes of each player. I had Acie pretty much splitting time at the point with Bibby. I need to find that thread to know exactly what I put down, but I think it was something similar to this: PG: Bibby ( 28 ) . . Acie ( 20 ) G: JJ ( 32 ) . . Flip ( 10 ) . . Evans ( 6 ) SF: Marvin ( 28 ) . . Evans ( 14 ) . . JJ ( 6 ) PF: Smth ( 36 ) . . Horford ( 8 ) . . Marvin ( 4 ) C: Horford ( 28 ) . . Zaza ( 20 ) Total minutes: JJ ( 38 ) Horford ( 36 ) Smith ( 36 ) Marvin ( 32 ) Bibby ( 28 ) Zaza ( 20 ) Evans ( 20 ) Acie ( 20 ) Flip ( 10 ) Then the season started, and of course, because of the flagrant foul in Game 7, Marvin is out the lineup for a game. That forces Woody to adjust the lineup. Mo starts for Marvin. Game 1 @ Orlando: - Mo plays 42 minutes, because he was solid defensively, and got on the boards ( 8 rebounds ) - Acie plays 16 minutes, and has 4 points, 4 rebs, and 2 assists - Flip plays 23 minutes, and scores 14 points. The Hawks beat the Magic by 14 that night. Game 2 vs Philly - Acie plays 13 minutes . . . scores 2 points and has 1 assist - Flip plays 19 minutes . . scores 4 points ( 2 - 8 FG ) - Marvin only played 20 minutes Hawks win by 13, mainly because JJ dropped 35 on the Sixers Game 3 @ New Orleans - Acie plays 12 minutes . . scores 1 point and has 2 assists - Flip plays 26 minutes . . scores 14 points, 3 assits, and 2 steals ( also 3 - 6 from 3-pt range ) Game 4 vs Toronto - Acie plays 13 minutes . . scores 2 points and has 4 assists - Flip plays 23 minutes . . scores 16 points ( another good night from three . . 3 - 4 ) - Bibby hit 5 threes this game This is the game in which Smoove got hurt, so Woody plays the entire bench. Horford got in early foul trouble, so it forced his hand to play both Solo and even Randolph Morris. Both did their job. I break the first 4 games down like this, because you are seeing a pattern. - The first thing you see is that Flip is a BALLER. Right from the jump he establishes himself as the scorer the Hawks has desperately longed for off the bench. In those first 4 games, he goes 17 - 39 FG ( 44% ) and 6 - 14 3FG ( 43% ). There is no doubt that he'd immeadiately made the case for himself to garner more playing time. - Contrast that to Acie, who in those first 4 games, really didn't do anything special at all. He had some flashes in the Toronto game, with a few good passes. But overall, he's doing NOTHING to stand out. In the first 4 games, he's 4 - 15 FG ( 27% ) and 0 - 7 3FG ( 0% obviously ). Assist wise, he has 9 total assists, along with 3 turnovers, which gives him a 3 to 1 assist/to ratio. That's decent. But he doesn't have a single steal in those four games. So now, you have a situation in which Flip is making a huge case to be a mid-20s minute guy a night off the bench. Law, on the other hand, has virtually did nothing to make a case for him to see more minutes. In fact, you could say that his lack of him knocking down the 3-ball, makes the case for his minutes to be reduced. Remember folks . . we're 4 - 0 at this point as well. So now go to Game 5 @ Oklahoma City - With no Smith in the lineup, you now see Solo getting a chance to get minutes. He plays 22 minutes, has 5 points, 10 rebounds, and 2 blocked shots. - Flip plays 27 minutes, and scores 14 points ( he was 5 - 14 FG . . but it was Flip that saved us in the 4th quarter by scoring 8 straight points to tie the game, after we were down 7 ) - Acie played 6 minutes . . scored no points and had 1 assist. Once again, he didn't even have a steal. He played all of his 6 minutes in the first half, with Woody opting not to go to him in the 2nd half Hawks win by 4 . . . and we're 5 - 0 Game 6 @ Chicago - if anything, Solo should be mad, because he only played 6 minutes this game. So why did he only play 6 minutes, if he's supposed to be taking up some of the slack for Smoove being out the lineup? Because . . - Horford goes off, and scores 27 points and pulls down 17 rebounds and has 6 blocks, in 41 minutes of play - Zaza has a solid 26 minutes of time, scoring 12 points and pulling down 8 rebounds. - Flip has an off game, scoring only 5 points ( 1 - 5 FG ) in 22 minutes of play. - Acie plays 8 minutes, and has GOOSE EGGS ACROSS THE BOARD . . 0 - 1 FG . . no points, rebounds, assists, or steals . . NOTHING. What sticks out most about this game, is the +/- ratio. Every Hawks starter had a positive +/- ratio, with Bibby having a +20 and JJ having a +14. But all of the bench players had a negative +/- ratio. And who was the worst? ACIE . . wtih a -17. He only plays 8 minutes, but has a -17? That's almost impossible. But he was supposed to be "running the 2nd unit", while JJ, Marvin, and Bibby were on the bench. Hawks couldn't hit anything, while the Bulls went on a 9 - 1 run, and immeadiately got back within 4. Acie didn't take one shot during that 3 minute run. Thank God for Bibby that game, because he comes right in and knocks down 2 threes and the lead immeadiatley goes back up to 10. Hawks win by 5. ************* This is why I defend Woody folks. This is why I KNOW that everything that goes wrong with this team, isn't his fault. I can actually see why he does things, without being emotionally attached to a player that I like. I like Acie. I think he could be a good player. But how can you justify playing a guy, that has NO EFFECT ON A GAME WHATSOEVER? The beginning of the season was his time to solidify himself into the rotation, and he FLAT OUT BLEW IT. Yet, people want to blame Woody for Acie's lack of development, or the offense, or whatever. I'm sorry. The blame goes DIRECTLY ON ACIE. It has to. The same that the blame had to go on Salim, for his lack of consistent production. Like Hawkman points out, the guy has to produce SOMETHING on his time on the court. He has to give the coach a reason to give him more playing time. If you add the 2 missed FGs he had in the Thunder and Bulls game, Acie shot 4 - 17 FG ( 24% ) . . with no three pointers . . and no steals . . during that 6 - 0 start we had. So what is Woody supposed to do? Continue to play Acie 12 - 18 minutes a game, to get him more experience, and take minutes away from Flip, who has quickly proven to be an asset to the team? Or take minutes away from Bibby, who in November shot a blistering 48% FG and 47% 3FG? Like Salim, Acie seems to excel during "scrub time". That's not enough folks. He has to start doing it within the flow of a game . . when the game is still in the balance. Unfortunately for Acie, he's not in a situation in which he's the best option at PG, but just needs some work. There is no AJ and Lue in front of him anymore. He's going to actually have to beat out the 2 PGs in head of him, to prove he deserves more playing time. If he doesn't, he's going to be buried on the bench FOREVER, and quickly find himself in the same position that a Marcus Williams ( of UCONN ) finds himself in. Remember him?

Still reading this thread, but those black, white, and red unis look sharp. I like the idea of having a silver uni. How about replacing the black with silver . . . replace the white with blue . . and keep the red trim. How would that look?

You even been to a Hawks game LIVE? There are so many fine women of ALL RACES in the crowd, that it's ridiculous. I had a club level ticket one night, and it was AMAZING how many beautiful women were up in the club level, eating, drinking, just looking GOOD. Star-wise, ATL is a music city. So if the typical Ciara citings don't float your boat, then I don't know what to do about that.

Bibby . . even though he's the guy that got us to playoff level. Now if we can re-sign him on the cheap, then even he may be able to stay here. It'll be interesting to see what team will re-sign him for more than 7 million. I'd assume someone would.

The think I think people keep forgetting about Marvin, is that he's one of the few SFs that can also play the 4. Marvin is just a solid player all-around, and I think people take that for granted. Amongst small forwards this year who played in at least 60 games, he was . . . - 16th in scoring ( 13.9 ) - 14th in FG% ( .458 ) - 5th in rebounding ( 6.3 ) Plus he's a good FT shooter at over 80% and a decent, but not great 3-point shooter at 35.5%. And he's a decent, but not great on-the-ball defender. He's not a star, but he's a solid SF in this league. I just think people have short memories, because of the playoffs. Ariza better than Marvin? Nah. Ariza just gets a lot more coverage, because he plays with the Lakers. Ariza is a very nice defensive player, but offensively, Marvin is much more dangerous. Ariza barely shot over 30% from 3-point range during the regular season. As limited as people think Marvin is offensively, Ariza is even more limited. Ariza has been fantastic in the playoffs though, I'll give him that. Put Marvin on the Cavs, and Marvin INSTANTLY becomes a 17 - 18 ppg scorer. No doubt in my mind about that. He'd be the guy that LeBron could throw the ball to on the perimeter, for him to knock down the shot. And he'd be the guy who can get out on the break, and finish a fast break. Most important, he'd be the 3rd, sometimes the 2nd scoring option . . a position he doesn't have at times with the Hawks. On the Cavs, and with LeBron's unselfishness, Marvin could get his 13 - 14 shots a game, while getting to the line about 4 - 6 times a game. Marvin is worth somewhere between an 8.5 - 9.5 mill a year deal. And somebody will give him that too.

Great post. Although he can't shoot, a guy like Andre Miller would be an upgrade at the PG spot, because he can defend a little better than Bibby, and he loves to drive the ball and get to the rim. That's an element on this team that we're missing from the guard spot. JJ gets into the paint, but he'd rather shoot the floater than go all the way to the hole. I don't mind Smoove at all taking the 15 foot jumper, although I'd rather for him to go to the hole as much as possible as well. For Smoove, all I would want him to do is shoot around the 38% range on his jumpers. I'm not expecting more than that from him. But he needs to know that the strength of his offensive game is scoring around the rim. Like you said, he should completely ABANDON the 3 point shot . . even if he's wide open. Take a dribble and get 3 - 5 feet closer, then shot. My problem with JJ on the double teams, is that he sometimes make lazy passes out of it that get stolen. His passes need to be a lot crisper with zip on them. Lebron does that very well. To me, the perfect offseason would be: - let Bibby go, and use just about all of the available FA money under the cap to sign Andre Miller. If he wants a deal that averages 9 - 10 mill a year, you give it to him for 4 years. - re-sign Marvin at 5 yrs / 44 million . . or 4 yrs / 35 million ( w/player option after year 3 ) - Do a trade with the Clippers that brings Marcus Camby to the Hawks. I was saying do Mo Evans + Speedy for Camby . . but I think the Clippers would bite more, if that deal was Speedy + the #19 pick for Camby. - use the MLE money to re-sign Flip. For us, it would give us a one year evauation of Camby to see if he is a good fit. If he is, we have a chance to re-sign him after 2010 ( if we own his bird rights . . which I'm not sure if we would ). If he doesn't work out, he falls off the books anyway. To me, this year's draft pick isn't going to be an impact pick, because the best player available will probably be a PG. Lineup: G - Miller G - JJ F - Marvin F - Smoove C - Horford Bench: G - Flip C - Camby G/F - Evans G - Acie ( if possible . . bring back Chill at a price lower than what we offered him back in the summer . . or you bring back Zaza to the mix, for more size ) Give us that lineup, and I think we could win 50+ games. Will that lineup be enough to overtake Orlando, Cleveland, and Boston? I don't know. Actually, I doubt it. But it will make us more competitive in a playoff series against them.

To me, the frontline just has to get tougher. Horford is tough, but still needs a lot of polish offensively. If he can start knocking down that 15 foot jumper at a 43% - 45% clip, he'll become a more viable offensive threat. When you talk about jumpshooting PFs and Cs, these were what some of the decent guys shot on their jumpers last year ( eFG percentage wise ). I'm going to exclude the guys that take a lot of 3s, like a Dirk, Charlie V, and Rasheed, because the 3-ball raises their percentages on their eFG jumpers. - Pau Gasol: 46.1% - Garnett: 45.1% - Yao Ming: 45.1% - Amare: 44.5% - Ilgauskas: 44.2% - Bosh: 43.6% - Duncan: 43.4% - Haslem:42.8% - D. West: 41.6% - Aldridge: 41.6% ( surprising . . I thought he would be higher ) - Brand - 41.5% - Horford: 40.8% So Horford is actually close to getting to that 41% - 43% level. The only thing about Horford, is that he's not going to have a lot of shots to do his thing from mid-range, with all of the gunners we have on the squad. Of the 9 shots a game he gets, he may only get 4 - 5 jumpers. So his misses will be magnified when he does miss, because he's not looked to score a ton of points. Smith plays soft at times. That's my major criticism of him, even outside of the jumpshots. If he starts becoming a player that doesn't mind banging, you'll see his game immeadiately go to that next level. I still say that from an energy standpoint, he should be doing what Shawn Marion did in his prime, where he was scoring and dominating on the boards. He has the athleticism to do just that, but he doesn't like to bang. What the playoffs ( hopefully ) will show him, is that he can make a living driving the basketball, and getting to the FT line to score his points. But he should also be a 10 rpg guy. He needs to change his mindset ( and become more fundamentally sound in boxing out for rebounds ), to get to that level. If we trade Horford or Smith, I definitely don't want to trade them for a lazy defensive dude like Charlie V. If you trade Horford or Smith, you do it for an Amare or a Bosh, if you really want to remake this team. Howeva . . Probably the easiest thing to do, is to keep both Horford and Smith, and just add to the depth of the frontline. That's why I would dangle a carrot to the Clippers, and go get Marcus Camby . . even if I have to use the Hawks 1st round pick to do it. If they don't do a deal like Mo Evans + Speedy to give us Camby . . I'd go Speedy + #19 pick, to get Camby. Camby would be much more of an immeadiate asset to add to the mix, than to bring in a potential PG that Woody might not play anyway ( especially if we bring Bibby and/or Flip back ). Adding a Camby would at least give us a guy who is active on the defensive end, and is a good rebounder. Actually, he's a borderline great rebounder in today's NBA. Plus he's an added shotblocker, something we always lose when we insert Zaza into a game. As far as Marvin goes, he was much more effective this year, than he's ever been in a Hawks uniform. He added the 3 pointer to his game, while still showing the ability to drive the basketball. As a complimentary player, he's doing exactly what he needs to do. He just needs to start shooting a higher percentage, especially on some of those wide open jumpers he gets. People want to use the playoffs as a barometer to what we need to do. But it's hard to do that, when we KNOW that both Horford and Marvin were hurt significantly. Those aren't "excuses". Those are FACTS.

The one distinct advantage that Horford does have over Gasol, is in the speed department. With Horford at center, it does give us the ability to really get out and run, with our bigs filling the lanes. Al finishing on the fast break, from the center position, is a lovely thing to see. People have to remember that the Al Horford we saw in most of the playoffs, is not the REAL AL HORFORD. That ankle injury killed his effectiveness, and killed us as a team. Come next year, he'll be that near double-double guy every night, that he's always has been.

I remember that game. That was the same night in which I think JJ dropped 40 on the Bulls. I remember that game because I thought the Hawks-Bulls game was going to be shown on SportSouth, but they showed the Spurs-Grizzlies game. Luckily, the Hawks game was on WGN. ( In Tennessee, we get most, but not all of the Hawks games on SportSouth . . and maybe 1 - 3 Hawks games when they show them on FSN South ) I was flipping back and forth in between commercial breaks of the Hawks game, to watch the Spurs. Having said that, Gasol is NOT a bad player at all. He's MUCH BETTER than Zaza. Not even close, in my opinion. And I watched about 15 Memphis games last year. I wouldn't trade Horford for Gasol, but I'm not sure if many Memphis fans would trade Gasol for Horford right now either. I haven't read the rest of this thread yet, but I'll just throw out some comparative numbers, via 82games.com Jumpshot percentage - Horford: 40.8% eFG - Gasol: 40.3% eFG Inside percentage - Horford: 67.4% - Gasol: 62.1% Free Throw Percentage - Horford: 72.7% - Gasol: 73.3% Ability to draw a foul on shot - Horford: 14.5% - Gasol: 20.4% Passing Rating - Horford: 3.6 - Gasol: 3.3 Rebound Rating - Horford: 29.4 - Gasol: 27.4 Shot Blocking Rating - Horford: 5.6 - Gasol: 5.5 Turnovers and Ball Handling ( higher rating is better ) - Horford: 10.2 - Gasol: 8.4 Best game of last season: - Horford: 27 pts - 17 rebs - 6 blks ( Horford also had a 21pt/22reb game last year ) - Gasol: 27 pts - 16 rebs - 3 blks ( Gasol also had a 30pt/13reb game last year ) So like I said, I'm not sure if Memphis fans would jump all over a Horford - Gasol trade. Marc Gasol is a very solid player, just as Al is.