TheNorthCydeRises

I mean . . damn. How do you watch something like that, and think he wasn't that good? Maybe not that clutch. But not that good? Some of those plays are unbelievable.

The worst 5 - 6 years? Come on now Bumpy. In Webber's best year, he averaged 27 ppg - 11 boards - and 4 assists ( 2000 - 01 ). His competition were: - the Spurs ( who had Tim Duncan, a guy who had already won a title . . and David Robinson, for defensive purposes ) - the Lakers ( when Shaq was still a dominant player - 29 ppg - 13 rebs, and who Webber would be matched up against at times ) - The Mavs ( when Dirk was really starting to come into his own - 22 ppg - 9 rebs ) - The Blazers ( who still had Rasheed Wallace, the good Rasheed Wallace - 19 ppg, 50% FG ) - The Jazz ( who had Malone, and was still a high percentage, high scoring PF - 23 ppg, 50% FG ) - The T-Wolves ( who had Garnett averaging 22 pts - 11 rebs and 5 asst ) - and the Suns ( who had Shawn Marion, when he was the main guy on that team - 17 ppg - 11 rebs ) So what you're trying to tell me, is that Webber faced a "watered down" league at the PF/C that consisted of: - Duncan - KG - Rasheed Wallace - Dirk - The Matrix - a grizzled vet in Malone - and Shaq ( at times ) ??? - even the Nuggets had Antonio McDyess ( who averaged 21 ppg and 12 rebs . . . damn, I forgot he was that good at one time ) The West was LOADED my friend. 7 teams that year won 50 games. 10 teams had a .500 or better record. Yet Webber went on and had a 27ppg - 11 rebs and 4 asst season that year. And he wasn't that good? Come on man. If you want to say that he didn't come through in the clutch all the time . . fine. I'll give you that. But that dude, in his first 8 - 10 years in the league, was a DAMN GOOD BALLPLAYER. Better than Josh Smith or Al Horford could ever dream of. http://databasebasketball.com/players/play...ilkid=WEBBECH01

I would argue with Troy, but Buckeye and Sinner have already destroyed any notion that Webber was a "bum" who won't get any HOF consideration. LOL @ Troy . . I did play a little baksetball. Played organized ball starting at age 7. I wasn't a great player in high school, but good enough to make a few All-District teams and good enough to get a scholorship at a very small school, which was a JUCO at the time. Only stayed there one year though, due to lack of PT. Then I tried to walk-on at U of Tennessee ( when they were really sorry in the early 90s ), but got cut. So I know a little bit about the game. All I know, is that Webber was pretty much the ish during his first 8 - 10 years of his career. Most people with basketball knowledge, even if they didn't like him, would agree with that. And damn, I forgot about he and Juwan Howard getting the Bullets to the playoffs. That team was inconsistent as hell, like the Hawks last year. But they were fun to watch. From Troy: "Josh Smith, has the potential to be a very good shooter from the outside." WOW!!! . . . . Just wow. That's almost worthy to be a signature tag line.

Shoot . . . if you take Horford off, and keep Smith . . and play Webber at center, the same thing still applies. The young Chris Webber would absolutely destroy people either off the dribble, or on the block. With his passing ability, JJ would probably get about 2 or 3 wide more wide open looks a game. But i forgot . . that guy is a bum . . lol.

Yep . . . it's totally ridiculous. Because when a guy averages 20.7 ppg . . 9.8 rebs . . and 4.2 asst for his entire career . . . it's just totally inconceivable that he is a borderline HOF. Webber is one of the top 10 best passing big men of all time. The Sacramento Kings had 13 consecutive losing seasons before Webber got there ( 15 if you include the years the Kings were in Kansas City ). As SOON as Webber got there, they started winning. The only thing that will keep this guy out of the Hall of Fame, is the Michigan scandal ( which pretty much erased his college career from the books ), and the Kings inability to really make major noise in the playoffs ( mainly because they couldn't get past the Lakers ). Webber as a player was LIGHT YEARS ahead of Smith. Even a young Chris Webber was much better than Smith. Smith has more athleticism and is better defensively. Webber was far better offensively and a far better rebounder . . and a little tougher than Smith. Who are the PFs that played in Webber's era? Barkley . . Malone . . Duncan ( even though I still say he's a center ), Garnett . . Nowitski . . Stoudemire. All of those guys are either in the HOF, or are probably going into the Hall of Fame. Webber is a name that should be mentioned right behind those guys. Some of you guys don't need to let your emotions blind you from being objective. PG - Bibby G - JJ F- Williams PF - Webber ( either the young Webber, or the one in his prime ) C - Horford You put him on this current Hawks roster, and take Smith off, and you have a legitimate NBA title contender. Especially with Webber's rebounding and passing ability? Please. I'll take #4 over #5 any day of the week.

You start Marvin. Do him the same way that Phil Jackson is doing Andrew Bynum, until Marvin gets close to100%. Mario is a fan favorite, but he should probably not get more than 5 minutes in any game we play during these playoffs. His energy is great, but he's not a gamechanger on the court. If he was, he'd be playing close to 15 - 20 minutes a game, and take some minutes from Mo.

LOL . . . you gotta love this board. Chris Webber is a borderline hall of famer, for what he did in college and in the pros. He pretty much resurrected a dead franchise in Sacramento, and almost instantly made them NBA championship contenders for about a 5 year stretch. Ish . . if Smith was 70% of the offensive and rebounding force that Webber was, we'd be an NBA title contender.

That's the very first thing I noticed. I burst out laughing when I saw that.

If Speedy plays, that will be my main focus. Can he stay in front of PGs and still be a disruptive force on the defensive end . . is the question I wanna see. If he can, that has the potential of being an added bonus come playoff time, in an emergency situation.

I say this because there have been scrub centers over the years on good teams, who have started games . . but they only log 12 - 18 minutes a game . . and they're almost never in the game at the end. The Hawks could do this, but it would be to our detriment, in my opinion. That's why Horford is the starter, even if that isn't his "natural position".

So what can he take credit for? edit: Also, I would argue that a team like Portland, from to to bottom, is more athletically gifted than we are. ( lol . . which is why we have major trouble with them ) So does that mean that Nate McMillian can also not take credit for having a team like that?

LOL . . it does feel good to say. I give Horford a ton of credit for our recent success. To me, his presence on the team is more vital that Bibby's. It's 2nd to JJ's in my opinion. And I'll tell you something else. It would be very easy for Woody to start Zaza, and bring Horford off the bench, just to justify having a sizeable presence at center in the game. It would also let Horford play his "natural position" more, by coming off the bench. But Woody opting to start Horford at center, enables us to have a good defensive rebounder in the game, something Zaza doesn't excel at. Those defensive rebounds eliminate possessions and can cause fast breaks. The extra shot blocking presence he gives us, has also been vital to our team's success and to our improving defensive rating. And while he may not know it, Horford playing center has and will continue to make him a tougher player. His potential is definitely suppressed by him playing center, but he doesn't back down one bit. You gotta love that about him.

Oh he definitely gets some of the blame. Truthfully, while we could've been better in his first 3 years, we were nowhere near being a playoff team in those first 2 years, and maybe a borderline 8th seed playoff team in year 3. Smith should be prohibited to shoot 3s, IMO. But you have to give Woody credit for how he's handled Smoove overall. He's not afraid to butt heads with the most popular player on the Hawks, and will reprimand him if he gets too far out of line. Keep in mind though, it was Woody who moved him to the 4, after Harrington got traded, and constantly told him to take the ball to the hole. His ability to take 4s off the dribble, is the most vital part of his offensive game. But like I said, this board gives Woody no credit for his development, so it's all moot. The lack of ball movement on offense is squarely on Woody. Even with that though, he trusts JJ to make the decisions in the half court, forcing him to be a good decision type player. Sometimes it's to the detriment of the team. Most times, it's for the good of the team. What grade would you give Woody for this season? My point is that Woody doesn't get credit for ANYTHING the Hawks have done right, especially in the last 2 years.

A lot of interesting stuff here. JJ was definitely capable of putting up the type of numbers he's doing now, and he did show that in Phoenix, when he basically had to run the point for a few months back in the 03- 04 season. So you're definitely right on that point. But the consensus by the "experts" and even on this board, was that he could never be a lead guy . . a go-to player. That he was always better suited to be a complimentary player, than the guy a franchise is built around. Woody pretty much put him in situations in which would enhance his ability to be a viable go-to player, as well as playmaker. He could've let Lue and the other PGs run the show, and let JJ play a traditional 2-guard role, like some on here wanted him to be. He could very easily give total control to Bibby to run the offense, but he doesn't. He still lets just about everything flow through JJ, whether it is for the good or for the bad of the team, to enhance his development as a star player. As far as defense goes, Woody constantly preaches defense to these guys. Constantly. But we've had a defensive problem at the PG position ever since Mookie got traded. Speedy was supposed to be a remedy defensively for that, but we know how that turned out. A good PG will absolutely torch Bibby, and that won't change as long as he's on the court. Also, a good post player will tend to kill us, because our post guys aren't bulk guys who can stop people. So we have to scramble and trap and constantly man-switch, in order to be effective on defense. And to be honest, our defense hinges on how we rebound the basketball, a principle that Woody has beat into these guys heads from day 1. Defense and rebounding. Defensive rating of the Hawks the last 5 years ( basketball-reference.com ) 04-05: 29th 05-06: 27th 06-07: 23rd 07-08: 18th 08-09: 13th Not surprising that when we got a dominant rebounder like Horford, that our defensive rating improved. 13th is pretty good, out of 30 teams. And here's a question about his sub patterns. What exactly has changed? - Marvin still comes out of the game first, regardless of how he's playing, around the 4 - 6 minute mark of the 1st quarter. - JJ still plays a ton of minutes. - Woody still doesn't trust young players, especially Acie, so he rides the bench along with all of those other young guys. - Just like last year, we're essentially only 8 deep, going into the playoffs. So what exactly has changed? Other than the fact that we're winning? There was a lot of complaints about Woody having "timed substitutions" in the past, but he still does that. The only difference, is we're winning.

Cwell, the 6th man award goes to the best bench player, not the best bench player who first comes into a game. Mo only enters the game first, because Woody likes to get Marvin out of the game first, so that he can bring him back in toward the end of the period to either relieve Smoove or JJ. Flip averages more minutes ( 24.3 ) than Mo does ( 22.8). The crazy thing about Varajeo, is that he's actually started 38 games this year and averages almost 29 minutes a game. Flip is averaging close to 14 ppg and shooting about 45% since Jan 1. It also doesn't help him that the Hawks are almost never on national TV. The Blazers get twice as much TV time than we do. And Cleveland is on every week nationally.

Oh . . I forgot Mike D'Antoni. Because if we'd had D'Antoni, we'd won 55 games this year . . lol.

So by using Hawksquawk logic . . . Nate McMillian doesn't deserve any credit with the way Brandon Roy has developed. ( Nate coaches Roy much in the same way that Woody does JJ. ) It's interesting to see the apathy toward Woodson on this board. He came into a situation in which he was basically inheriting an expansion team, much like what the OK City Thunder look like when they moved to Seattle. Everybody knew it would take us at least 3 years, maybe more, to dig out of the hole. We finally made the playoffs in year 4, but not with a winning record. In Year 5, we achieved that winning record, and gained home court in the first round of the playoffs for the first time in 10 years. Yet this guy can't get any credit for anything this team does, from player development, to the overall mentality of this team. Let Hawksquawk tell it . . - Smoove developed without Woody - Marvin developed without Woody - Zaza's effectiveness off the bench is due to his own development, and not because of Woody - JJ became a star player without Woody - Flip developed without Woody ( remember, this is the same guy we signed for a mere 1.5 million for one season, because no one else wanted his azz ) I mean, damn. Why are the Hawks even paying for a coach who's obviouslynot had a hand in the development of our players? They should just coach themselves, if that's the case. Meanwhile, coaches like Terry Porter, Scott Skiles, and Jim O'Brien are light years ahead of Woody as a coach. Damn, does Woody get any credit for anything the Hawks have done in the past 2 years? I'm just curious.

He really does. When we first got JJ, it was believed that he could never develop into a #1 option type player, or a player that you could revolve an entire offense around. It was a lot of people who doubted that JJ could be a star, and said that he was merely a product of Phoenix's system. Remember, Cleveland pretty much chose to go after Larry Hughes, instead of JJ. Now look at Hughes and look at JJ. The facts are that JJ has made 3 all-star teams under Woody. Teams look to double team him like he was Kobe or Lebron. Woody has given him the freedom to do exactly what Lebron and Kobe does offensively. Woody has challenged JJ in the past to really elevate his game to the level of those guys, even if he doesn't have the athletic ability to be a showman like they do. JJ has gone from a spot up shooter, to a guy who can take and make difficult shots. When you look at it objectively, Woody's treatment of JJ like he was a superstar player from DAY 1, has enabled him to become the player that he is today.

TORNADO WARNING FOR FULTON CO. You guys keep an eye on this storm. Damn . .it looks like it's headed straight for downtown, or just south of it . . at the Braves game. Tennessee got rocked today with the tornadoes.

"pitcure perfect" Marvin is back !!!

Exactly. I'd much rather see Josh get offensive rebounds and put them back in the hole, than shooting 3's. Instead of a decent 3 point shooter, how about concentrating on grrabbing 10 -12 boards a game.

I will say this though ( and Woody has already done this ). If Bibby isn't on his game, and Flip is . . then leave Flip out on the floor. It may be more important to which one of them is finishing a game, than starting it. But I say keep Flip coming off the bench, because he has embraced that role.

I think the one major thing going against starting Flip over Bibby, is that it would actually take shots away from Flip and give us one less person who could pass the ball on the perimeter. Bibby does take a lot of jumpers, but he also can find the open man as well. When teams have to worry about Bibby knocking down shots, it actually opens up the paint for Horford, Smoove, and Marvin . . and allows JJ to go one on one at times. Bibby has tossed quite a few alley-oops to Smoove and Horford for easy baskets this year. His assist totals would be higher, if JJ didn't handle the ball so much. Off the bench, Flip at times is actually our #1 scoring option. Woody has given him the green light to take any shot he wants, almost like the role Barbosa has in Phoenix. And that's probably a good guy to compare Flip to, to justify why he shouldn't start. Even if we didn't re-sign Bibby, I think I'd still want Flip to come off the bench, and let Acie start. Because the biggest indictment against Flip, is his assist to turnover ratio, which is more comparable to Marvin's and Smoove's, than it is to Bibby's and Acie's. Plus, you always have to wonder about the psyche of a guy who has started most of his career, suddenly coming off the bench. You see what it did to Iverson.

Bad economy = Woody staying. LOL . . and how ungrateful would that be? This team could win 45 - 47 games for the first time in 10 years, and the coach still gets fired just because he lost to a guy who may be the MVP this year ( if our opponent is the Heat ). So what? Woody gets fired after leading the Hawks to 47 wins. Who do we bring in of quality, that won't cost an arm and a leg? The ONLY scenario in which Woody could be in jeapordy, is if we got swept or lost in 5 games in the 1st round . . to the Sixers. People might as well get ready of Year 6 of Woody . . which I think would make him the Dean of Eastern Conference coaches. ( Lawrence Frank should be fired at the end of the year )

JJ does dribble around a lot, but his ability to find the open man, is one of the best in the league. It's hard to make the claim that JJ has a low . . or even an average BBIQ . . when he's 2nd in the league in assists amongst SGs . . and has a better assist to turnover ratio than D-Wade and Kobe.