TheNorthCydeRises

Quote: Quote: Here are my expectations for Marvin next season 1) Score 16-17 points a night while shooting 47-48% 2) Take that jump hook he was using at the end of the year more 3) Improve on defense and boxing out I don't think so. Let's face it, we're not going to have 4 16+ points/game players, Bibby, JJ Marvin and Smith. Someone has to give up shot opportunities and focus on helping the team in other ways. Not to mention, that I think most would hope Horford would get a few more offensive touches in the post. Anyone thinking that our strating 5 will all score 15 or more is being silly. Marvin is clearly a guy who is comfortable deferring, so I expect him to do that next season. I say Marvin will become more of a defensive presence while scoring closer to 14 points with 6 boards. And of course, he will be blistered on this board by guys who expect that we will in fact have 4 guys averaging 16+ points in the starting line-up while thinking that Horford should be right around 14-15 points per game. I could easily see this breakdown for the Hawks next season: JJ - 20 ppg Smith - 17 ppg Marvin - 16 ppg Horford - 14 ppg Bibby - 11 ppg Chill - 11 ppg Acie - 8 ppg Zaza - 4 ppg Rest of bench - 4 ppg Total points : 105 ppg ( we averaged 103.5 ppg after the all-star break last season ) Of course, these totals will depend on if Woody makes it a point to give Acie more time. If he does, that'll cut into Bibby's point total and possibly raise Horford's, because Acie will get the post people the ball.

Quote: Quote: My bet is that all of you who defend Marvin constantly are too afraid to put an expectation of him down for the record... I can't speak for everyone but i made my expectations of Marvin pretty clear before this past season. i wanted to see him average 15-16 ppg shooting 47-48%. he came up a bit short of that after a hot start. Long term i said i hoped he could be as productive as Deng. I don't see him being an All-Star candidate at all down the road. This coming season i want to see one thing from him. I want to see him shooting 3s. Long term i think he needs to be a 3 pt threat to be a better than average 3. And I did the same thing last summer. In fact, I did it for all the Hawks. I think I said 16/17 pts - 6 rebs - on 48% shooting for Marvin. I would like him to develop the 3-ball, but not if it is going to hurt his overall efficiency as a shooter. The tendency for guys who try to shoot 3s, is that they'll fall in love with that shot, instead of taking better shots ( Salim was notorious for this, and Smith too after he hit his first 3 ). So instead, I'd love for Marvin to develop the pull-up jumper off the dribble, shoot right over people, and become a better finisher around the rim. To me, it's all about him being as efficient as possible. I don't want him jacking up 3s, if he's only going to shoot it at a clip under 30%. The starting 5 of this team is very balanced now, with Bibby in the mix. We could very well resemble the Pistons of a few years ago, where all the starters averaged 14 - 20 ppg.

But doesn't that sound like Troy Murphy about 4 years ago?

Quote: Marvin isn't Dion Glover but what he is isn't good enough to be a starting SF for this team. You can say he plays within himself and doesn't take three point shots but that is what this team needs. He isn't as good as Smoove at creating his own shot. Not even close IMO. With the ball in his hands he is no threat. Wide open on the wing he is deadly. A player who plays off others and couldn't take over if necessary is expendable. He plays a role but not catered to what this team needs. A T.Prince or R.Artest would be much better on this squad. Guys like Artest and Prince are arguably top 10 in the league and maybe the 2 best defensive SFs in the game. Of course I, and everyone else, would rather have those 2 guys. That still doesn't make Marvin a bad player or a player that is expendible for the Hawks. Not even close. The kid is just underappreciated because people want him to justify being taken #2, and be a star right away. It's hard to appreciate his overall consitency as a player, when the expectations are so high for him. He may not hit 3s, but the constant 21 footers he knocks down gives people like Smith enough room to operate when he drives to the hole. And the opponent knows that if Marvin is left open, that he's probably knocking down the shot. He also can play the 4, especially when Horford and Smith are in foul trouble. If we don't get another big man in here, he'll have to play some PF again next season. That's something that is overlooked by just about everyone on this board.

Quote: CORRECTION... He shot 49% in March. He shot 43 and 35% in Jan and Feb. In March, we didn't win Many games. Moreover, we can't play NY every game Northcyde. Marvin is not a difference maker! Not an impact player. Why do you still try to convince people that he is. Yesterday you said he was average. Stick to that! LOL @ we didn win many games in March. I think we had a winning record in March, and won like 8 out of 10 at one point, after starting the month terribly. And once again, the month of April must not exist in your calendar. The season didn't end in March. You say he's not a difference maker, but isn't it a coincidence that our worst 2 months of basketball almost directly coincides with Marvin's struggles from the field? Outside of the shotty defense we were playing, we missed Marvin's consistency as an offensive player during that time.

That's pure insanity. Why do they constantly overpay for decent, but not very good players? I guess they wanted to avoid the situation we're in with Smith. LOL . . . this board would've completely flipped out if we gave Smith a contract like that last summer. I bet Smith and Okafor are like, WTF??? Neither of them are worth that much, but Bogut gets that from Milwaukee? Insanity.

Quote: It's possible. Smith is young enough and is in an early enough stage in his career where if he works on it, he can get that jump shot to be more consistent. I was one of the few people who thought it wouldn't be possible, then someone on here, I think Diesel, pointed that out, and it's a very good point. Smith's eFG% on his jumper: Rookie: 28% FG 2nd yr: 37% 3rd yr: 31% last yr: 31% +50% is great +45% is good +40% is average +35% is below average anything below 35% is absolutely horrible Remember, the eFG% counts a made three pointer as 1.5 FGs. So if you made 3 out of 6 total shots ( box score of 50% FG ), and two of those makes were 3-pointers, the two 3s woud actually equal 3FGs made + the one 2-pointer made . . . .that gives you a total of 4FGs made out of 6 . . . and your eFG% would be 66.7%. It's almost like some people want Smith to fail or something. Or then again, it may be all about their dislike for Marvin, like it usually is. Horford is very capable of becoming a guy who can effectively play both center and PF at a high level. And I'll tell you this. If Horford proves to be the more efficient offensive player, he WILL eventually get more touches than Smoove in the halfcourt offense. That will either force Smith to change up his game, and start crashing the offensive bords more to get his points, or he'll pout like AK47 did, and possibly want out anyway. But people can't just keep saying that we need a center, without naming a REALISTIC guy we can bring in. The key to a Horford/Smith frontline, is maximizing the production of Horford when he plays PF. And like other people have constantly said, that means maybe only getting a reserve center that can play defense for 20 minutes a game.

I'm not going to offer up any opinions. All I'll do is post the numbers: Jumpshot eFG%: - Horford: 39% FG ( 71% of his makes were assisted . . 3.3 ppg ) - Smith: 31% FG ( 73% of his makes were assisted . . 4.1 ppg ) Inside FG%: - Horford: 62% FG ( 65% assisted . . 4.9 ppg ) - Smith: 62% FG ( 61% assisted . . 9 ppg ) Close FG%: ( these are inside shots that aren't dunks or tips ) - Horford 53% ( 62% assisted . . 3.1 ppg ) - Smith: 54% ( 58% assisted . . 6 ppg ) Free throw %: - Horford: 73% - Smith: 71% Draw a Foul %: - Horford: 13% - Smith: 17% Free throw makes per game: - Horford: 1.9 - Smith: 4.1

Marvin shot 50% FG in the first 2 months of the season to get us really rolling. And he shot 49% FG in those critical last 2 months of the season when we made our playoff push. Yet, people dog him like he's Dion Glover or somebody. They get mad because Marvin is content to play his role on the team. But they also get mad when Smith, Lue and Salim used to act like they were THE star player on the floor, and tried to do too much. It's hilarious.

Quote: Then explain why there has been no Elton Brand National TV campaign since he joined the league? The same reason why Tim Duncan doesn't have many more national TV campaigns thrown his way. Because both he and Elton are looked at as "boring" players. They're almost too fundamental, and not flashy enough, to move the ad meter. Think about it. Tim has 4 championships and is arguably the best player in the league. Yet, who do you see on TV all the time? Lebron, Wade, Kobe, Shaq, Garnett. Heck, even Jordan is on commercials more than Timmy. In the advertising world, it's all about if you have marketability. The headband, the highlight dunks, the game-changing blocks, the scowl, and yes, the fact he looks like Game, can all be marketed. Quote: If you think about most of the marketers for the NBA none of them are LA based. Coke is here in Atl, and Josh Smith already has a Powerade campaign. Nike is out of Oregon, and Adidas and Pepsi aren't out of Cali either. Also consider that LA is 50 percent hispanic, who generally aren't NBA fans. LOL @ Hispanics aren't NBA fans. Since when? Just because they're not quite a few hispanics in the NBA, doesn't mean that they don't watch the league. All of those Mexicans are Laker fans and fans of Kobe. And as far as the marketers go, you're only talking about the corporate headquarters of those companies. Those same companies have regional hubs across the country and world, including LA. And where do you think the commercials are shot? The fact that LA is a top media market will elevate Smith's potential appeal ouside of basketball almost immeadiately. You can't overlook the fact that the vast majority of TV shows and movies are shot in LA. Some of your top entertainment agencies are LA based. There would be opportunities far beyond a 30 second TV commercial, that Smith could be in. And I'm pretty sure that Elton has either been in a few movies and TV shows. I need to check that to make sure. If Smith wants a piece of the limelight, he could easily get it in LA, and they would gladly give it to him, especially if the Clips get back into the playoffs. Quote: L.A. as a marketing hub for basketball is totally overrated. And talk about history, the Clippers could be the worst franchise in HISTORY. Theyve made the playoffs like 5 time in their entire history. And yet, if you'd asked people what was the worst francise of the past 10 years, 75% of them would say US. People who aren't Hawk fans, think that the Hawks have been losers since Dominique left. Tell people that the Hawks made the playoffs 9 times in the 90s, and they'd be absolutely shocked. Remember that Clipper team of about 5 - 6 years ago, with Brand, Maggette, Q-Richardson, and Darius Miles? The young, energetic, headband wearing squad that would always tap their heads with their fists after they make a good play? That mediocre Clipper team got much more exposure than this year's Hawks, or the 1999 playoff Hawk team during the strike year. Ish, you can even argue that they got more exposure than some of those good mid-90s teams of Smitty, Mookie, and Deke. That team was methodical as hell, and won with defense. Nobody likes teams like that. That's why the Spurs draw low ratings during NBA Finals time. Yeah, they're one of the best teams in basketball, but they aren't "pretty" to watch. Heck, people STILL think that Smoove plays SF for us and Marvin the PF. That shows you how much they really know about Smith and the Hawks.

I think you guys are kind of delusional when looking at this issue. The one thing most people cite in favor of keeping Josh at all costs, is that he's an exciting player to watch, and that people come out to see him play because of that. Now if you truly believe that about the people in ATL that watch him, the same will hold true for Clipper fans in LA. I can see Billy Crystal right now, with a #5 Smith jersey on right now. When you look at it from Smith's persective, you have to look at the entire package. He may very well win more games in ATL, but will he get more exposure? Even when the Clippers were bad, they still managed to get a few national TV games, while we were left out in the cold. I thin even the "playoff guarantee" Hawks of 2002, only got one national TV game ( I think we played Indiana ). ATL would have to be a top tier team, for Smith to get the exposure he'd get with a mediocre Clipper team. Make no mistake . . . a guy like Chris Bosh is known around the league and its fans. But he's MUCH BETTER than what people think. But him being in Toronto has him on that JJ-level of a star. If he played in New York or LA, he'd be a 2nd-level star by now, because their media would constantly remind you how good he is. It is also that reason why Bosh may opt out in 2 years and go to a better market. LA fans will fall in love with Smith's athleticism, just like in ATL. All he'd have to do, is help Baron and the Clips take down the Lakers, and he'd instantly be the 2nd most popular player in that city, behind Kobe. The LA media would definitely love him, and hype him way more than the ATL media, who could give a damn about the Hawks, for the most part. And because LA is a huge media market, opportunities for him to do things outside of basketball will immeadiately open up for him. If all else fails, he can be a stunt double for the rapper, The Game, in his next video.

James Jones is one of, if not THE MOST one-dimensional player in the entire NBA. He is essentially a taller version of Damon Jones. Using this logic, you'd rather have Damon Jones over Acie Law, because Damon can knock down the 3-ball. And Marvin is an average STARTING SF in this league. Scrubs like James Jones can't hold a candle to Marvin. That's why James is always on the trading block.

Quote: Yeah, but over the second half of the season he shot 43.9%. Jan = 44% Feb = 35% March = 49% In the playoffs, 41%. Nothing Special. I know math is not your strongest subject, but damn . . .you're just going to leave out the month of April, and the 48% FG he shot that month? LOL. Even in March, he shot 49.7% FG, which rounds up to 50% FG. So when we needed Marvin the most, he shot almost 49% FG in the final 2 months. LOL @ nothing special. In the NBA, consistency is special. Like I've said all along, the kid had one horrible month. Yet, you and others talk like he played like garbage the entire year.

Quote: When did Diesel imply "all summer long"? JS didn't work all summer with Hakeem but it's skill development and a hell of alot better than a summer worth of pilates or washed up UNC 3 on 3. W So why did Marvin start off so well last year? He was damn near shooting 50% FG at Christmas.

Quote: Question for you. What kind of work ethic does your boy Shelden have? Based on your criteria, he must not do a damn thing in the off season. Shelden is putting in "work" on Candace during the offseason. He could give a damn about basketball. Kind of like how Grant Hill went from perennial all-star, to always on the injured list . . right after he met Tamia.

Quote: Now, he's an astute basketball fan?? Interesting. Ok, here's the problem. Marvin is not improving. You can track Smoove's improvement from year to year. You can track improvement in other's game from year to year. However, Marvin doesn't really improve. He hasn't added anything to his game. He hasn't improved any area of his game. He started off a 24% three point shooter as a rookie and now he's a 10% three point shooter. Over the season, he went from shooting 46% to finishing shooting 43.9% over the second half of the season. In his rookie year, he was very tentative. Now he's just a standstill midrange shooter. In his drives, he still drops his head and stumbles over people. Nothing different than before. He's still clumsy. He still doesn't do anything impactful on the floor. You have quotes about work ethic, however, if you were really astute, you would know that work ethic is seen best in the product... not in talk. Especially not when you have a history of taking summers off. How did we know that Jordan had a great work ethic? Was it from rumor? Was it from what others said about him? Was it from what the reporters may have stated in their blogs? NO... His work ethic spoke on the court. When he had to get better, he did. When he needed to improve, he did. Where he was weak, he strengthened. This is the issue with Marvin. I'm sure I can find one article with somebody talking good about anybody but Eddy Curry. Marvin Williams the past 2 seasons: 06 - 07 FG% - 43.5% Jumper eFG% - 42% Inside FG% - 51% ( which is horrible for a SF ) FT attempts - 263 FT% - 81% Draw a Foul% - 13% 07 - 08 FG% - 46% Jumper eFG% - 41% Inside FG% - 58% ( which is average for a SF and a huge jump for him ) FT attempts - 409 ( his 336 FT makes led the Hawks ) FT% - 82% Draw a Foul% - 15% Nope . . . he didn't improve at all. Not one iota.

I think the whole "Smith loves ATL" thing is blown way out of proportion. It's possible that since he's been an ATLien al of his life, that he may want to see what life is like somewhere else . . . especially if it's out in Los Angeles. Even in Philly, Smith will be in East Coast media market and get plenty of exposure. The true question is . . . does Smith care more about winning, or seeing his "star" shine as bright as possible? It's hard to believe that if Smith played in either LA or Philly, that he still would've not been selected for one of those All-Defensive NBA teams. More exposure, coupled with sports talk hosts and writers in those prospective areas talking him up, may have elevated his status in the eyes of the voters. The NBA is a big time business, and these agents have to make the best business decision possible for their client. It's "business" over "love", for the most part in professional sports.

Quote: Whoa, now Marvin has improved, not nearly enough, but he has improved. Let's not let personal bias cloud reality. And Josh Smith nor Josh Childress were asked to be part of the rookie-sophomore games. Marvin unlike Smith plays with in himself, doesn't make a ton of turnovers and only does what he is asked to do without all pouting. Lay off the man. The crazy thing about this "discussion", is that whatever Marvin did last offseason helped him TREMEDOUSLY at the start of the 07 - 08 season. Marvin was easily . . EASILY . . our most consitent and dependable offensive player in November and December. JJ's shot was erratic and Smith ran extremely hot and cold in those first 2 months. Marvin's play was so good, that some on this site even advocated that Woody run not only more plays for Marvin, but to even make him the PRIMARY OPTION IN THE OFFENSE. But as soon as that guy had a bad 15 - 20 game stretch in February and early March, the Marvin hadhunters came back out of the woodwork. February was probably Marvin's worst month as a pro, and that's all people needed to see before getting back on the "Marvin Sucks" bandwagon. March and April, he was back to his old self, but also saw less shos per game with the arrival of Bibby. And it's funny how people talk about Marvin turning the ball over due to his clumsy nature. Marvin didn't lead the Hawks in turnovers. "You know who", did.

He's just a fan that didn't want to believe that Memphis wouldn't dare go all out to get another major free agent to replace Gasol as the centerpiece. They have cap space, but they're not going after anyone major. Brand and/or Smith is what they need in Memphis. If they're not talking about going after those 2, they won't go after anyone major. They'll sell the potential of Gay, Conley, and Mayo as the future of Memphis basketball. Getting Carney would be a decent item to bring back to Memphis. Athletically, the Griz should be sick next year if they did that. And it's a relatively CHEAP move too.

Quote: Quote: Quote: Alright alright I'll take down the Yankees and Dolphins stuff. I guess you guys are still bitter about 1996 How are you a Yankees fan, a Hawks fan, and a Dolphins fan? Don't you guys think that is weird? Some of us ain't homers, my friend. Hawks... Cowboys... and a MLB team I'd rather not name at the moment. () All because I happened to choose Pete Maravich, Craig Morton, and Joe Morgan as my favorite players when I first began collecting cards. I'm not an ATL local, but all of the teams I like follow right now, were good in the mid-late 80s - Hawks: ( because of Nique and Spud . . . and the fact that they used to show a lot of Hawks games on TBS and later on TNT, before they got the NBA yearly package. Back in those days, there were no territorial restrictions to Hawk games. They had free national reign, like the Cubs do on WGN and like the Braves used to have on TBS. ) - Cincinnati Reds: ( because of Pete Rose, Mario Soto, and Eric Davis . . . and the fact that they were shown locally on the Nashville independent channel back then, which is now a Nashville FOX network affialiate. The Reds and Cards used to be the regional teams of choice in the South, because although the Braves had TBS, they were just too sorry to have a big following. Once they started winning though, the entire South quickly adopted them. When they became good, the Braves became our NL West rivals. LOL . . . . and to this day, I despise the Braves. I've neva, EVA, rooted for that team to win. ) - Cincinnati Bengals: ( I was a Cowboy fan when I was a pre-teen, and was devstated by Dwight Clark's catch. So I rooted for the Bengals to beat the 49ers. They became my AFC team of choice, with the Boys being my main team. But when Dallas fired Landry, I shifted my allegiance fully to the Bengals, basically disowned the Cowboys, and have been a fan ever since. LOL . . if I would've just stuck with the Cowboys a little bit longer. The only team I hate more than the Braves, are the 49ers. NBA-wise, I probably hate Indiana the most. )

The one "weapon" I wished I had access to over @ ESPN, would be to people's IP addresses, to give us the option to ban someone that way, instead of just their username. The true "trolls" or posters that like to clown people by posting under 3 - 10 different names, could be handled quite nicely with an IP ban.I'm sure Dol could probably check to see if all of those names are coming from the same IP. If they are, I wouldn't ban the names if I were him. I'd just let everyone on the board know that I know for a FACT that they are indeed the same person. That would essentially impose a self-ban on the other usernames outside of his main one.People need to remember that you're only anonymous to a certain point, on the net.

If we can't get rid of Speedy, might as well try to play him. It would be nice if he could become the 9th man in the rotation

Quote: Why is it a prerequisite to be from Atlanta to be a fan of the Hawks? I probably have been a fan a lot longer then you and I have never lived there. There is a reason this is one of the best and more mature sports forums around. Its because of Kudzu, Chilz and Dolfan. Try dealing with the silliness on the realgm forums or Espn forums if you are unhappy here. As the former moderator of the Hawks ESPN board from right after the JJ trade, until they changed up the boards back in 2006, I would definitely agree with everything you said. This board, compared to most fan boards, is a top notch place to post. Dolfan and Chillz do a trmendous job here managing this site. People pretty muc have free reign to post whatever they want, as long as it doesn't go over the line. When one of them feels the need to step in and control/neutralize a situation, they do. Over at ESPN, I know I would spend at least 15 - 30 minutes a day just deleting spam posts, or temporarily banning trolls. That board was nothing but a playground for trolls. And back in those days, the trolls were plentiful. I had to be heavy-handed with some of those kids/guys. Then they'd whine and complain like Iverson when he doesn't get a foul call going to they hole, under a different username, asking why I banned them. But even though I was a moderator, I would still be a very active poster whose opinions sometimes disagreed with the majority of the fan base. ( I know, that's a big shock huh? ). I've only see or heard of them dropping the hammer on somebody 3 times in the 3 years I've been on the site. Once on that Phoenix fan after the JJ trade. ( who was probably the same cat trolling the Hawks ESPN boards during that time ) . Once on Walter, after he cursed at one of them. And once on that Lawstudent guy last year. Other than that, they manage these boards well. They could very easily be a-holes, and ban posters or delete posts anytime they wanted to. As much as Dol and Ex have been going at it lately, he could easily drop the hammer on Ex for about a week, just out of spite . . . but he doesn't.

Quote: Childress is seriously undervalued around here. I really like his versatility. His versatility was one of the reasons why Woodson was able to shorten up the rotation this season. I'm not saying that I agree with Woodson's decision but that speaks volumes about the kind of player Childress is. If we lose him, we'll have to pick up a guy or guys who can replace that on the floor. That effort around the baseline and under the boards is not something just any player brings to the table. Exactly. In that short rotation, he'd play everything from PG to SF. And because of that, it made it difficult at times for people to match up with us. You get rid of him, and you'd possibly have to replace him with 2 guys, just to make up for what he brings to the table. Those 2 guys could very well be more beneficial to us than Chill by himself. But it does illustrate just how good of a player the guy is. Some people compare him to a poor man's Shawn Marion. That's probably a good description for him.

LOL . . . that's the exact question I was about to type. Woody and Krueger should be getting 85% of the votes, with the rest going to Weiss.