TheNorthCydeRises

Quote: We can use Marvin to address some needs next offseason in a sign and trade. Regardless this is his last year in Atlanta unless he takes a MLE type of contract. LOL @ MLE contract. I guess Marvin is going to go into decline next year huh? Marvin may be ther very reason why we don't match either Smith or Chill. This board is amazing. The kid averages 15 ppg, 6 boards and shot 46% FG and 80+% FTs . . yet . . people feel he's a dime a dozen player that has the worth of Royal Ivey. Ish, Lebron would love to have a Marvin on his squad. So would Kobe, Wade, and T-Mac. If Marvin improves ANY next year, he's getting a hefty pay raise as well. If not from us, from somebody.

Quote: 1. In Smith eyes, the main thing for him should be the cap hit... At the end of the Atlanta contract.. How is it perceived? Where can Smith's extension start at 18 or at 14? Same question for the Philly contract.? Why would Smith or any player be worried about the cap hit? That's the team's concern. Smith is only worried about how he will get paid and how much. As for which contract he'd prefer, it's obviously the Philly contract. Forget the fact that he'll make 3 million more in year 1. It's the fact that he can get 45% of that year 1 payment right off the bat, that is the kicker for most players in his situation. It's like the lottery scenario I laid out yesterday. People take the cash option to get that money right away. He'd go from getting monthly checks, to a 9 million payment right from the start. Quote: 2. Again. For the Spirit... a 5 yr 74-75 Million dollar deal is going to be the same for the spirit whichever way it's presented.. .However, they should be pleased as punch if Smoove would sign it because in 2013... Smoove's only making 13 Million instead of 17 million. That's 4 more million that they can spend elsewhere. As long as ASG is not over the luxury cap this year, then frontloading like b... makes a lot of sense. They will have to resign Horf and they will have to resign JJ and they might resign Acie as well. Well unfortunately for us, the ATL frontloaded deal I laid out, would put us in a serious bind not only to re-sign Chill, but also to fill out the rest of the roster. No way we could keep from going over the luxury tax in that scenario. In the ATL contract, the cap hit will be far greater than in the Philly contract in the beginning of the deal. I think you're trying to make out like there is no difference in the contracts, when it's actually a big difference in the short term, especially in a situation like ours. And if you've noticed, only the real desperate teams offer the lump sum type of signing bonus at the beginning of a deal. We were desperate to get JJ, and i guess Philly is desperate to get Smoove. I bet Chill won't get a contract with a signing bonus though.

Scenario: 2 contracts offered to Smith, both contracts are approx 5yr - 74 to 75 million deals - Philly: frontloaded contract starts at 11 mill the first year + a 9 mill signing bonus, and say it increases approx 12m - 13m - 14m - 15m - Atlanta: a frontloaded contract starts at 17mill the first year, and say it declines approx 16m - 15m - 14m - 13m Questions: 1) Which contract would be more attractive to you if you were Josh Smith? 2) If you're Atlanta, would you frontload a deal like that to entice Smith to re-sign?

That's Sund, working his magic and trying to lock up the shooter before anything else.

He's not acting. He knows he's "right" and is determined to prove everyone wrong . . . because everyone is telling him that he's wrong. He has to be right . . . he just has to.

LOL. Is it obvious to everyone but YOU, that "frontloaded" in Hinrich's contract simply means that he's getting what would be his 5th year salary FIRST, and what would be his 1st year salary, LAST? It's not a signing bonus or a balloon payment added onto his base salary. It's simply his salary paid in reverse order of how it is usually done.

I agree. And that's why I still say that if they decide to retain both Smith and Childress, that they'll go little over the luxury tax this year to do it. They had to know that adding Bibby would put them up against the wall a little. So if they think those 2 are that important, they'll pay the money without even blinking. But if they do decide to let Smith and/or Chill walk, we fortunately have other guys who can step up and elevate their games.

Yep . . .cause there's no possible way someone else will step their game up, fill the void left by the departing player, and possibly . . . maybe . . . make the team even better than it was. No way Horford, with an increased number of shots, steps up offensively, and averages 17 ppg, 11 boards and shoots 52% FG playing PF. No way Marvin, with an increased number of shots ( 14 or 15 shots a game ), steps up and averages 19 ppg, 7 rebs and shoots 47% FG, because he's being asked to do more. He sucks anyway. No way Law, with increased playing time, steps up and gives us 10 ppg and 5 assists on 44% FG No way Solo, as the backup PF playing 20 minutes a game, could give us 5 rebs a game along with 1.3 blks, while being the "hustle guy" on the frontline. It never happens in the NBA. Players never seize the opportunity to knock the door down when it presents itself.

It's probably because they feel like Iggy sold them out in the playoffs. What happened, was that the Pistons started doing to Iggy, what Boston did to JJ. Iggy has probably never been doubled like that, before this series, and especially after Philly won Game 3. JJ could still function as a playmaker when doubled, but Iggy realy didn't know what to do, other than try to force his offense.

Just curious on who it is, before I post this info.

Quote: While very few of us would clamor for Childress to leave, if he's getting $8 million/year offers, you have to consider other options. That's a little rich for a 'glue guy' coming off the bench, especially considering how strapped this team is financially. And I know its 'irrelevent' to some but the 6th pick overall shouldn't be relegated to being a glue guy in the first place; that's what 2nd/3rd tier free agents and mid-level draft picks are for. Just my opinion. That 6th pick would be our starting SF, if Knight chooses Paul over Marvin, but that's besides the point. And I actually agree that 8 million is a little too rich for Chill. But here's a little nugget about Chill. Someone on this board, i forget who, references a stat called "win score" or "win shares" as a decent evaulator of how the play of a particular player translates into wins and losses for his team. Guess who has the highest win score on the team, according to basketball-reference.com? Josh Childress. In fact, he and Horford are the ONLY Hawks with a win score/share higher than their loss score/share. And when you look at the Hawks for the past 3 seasons, Chill has perennially had a win score higher than his loss score. Conversely, JJ and Josh Smith have never had a positive win/loss score.

We all know your "Diesel-like with Marvin" opinion of Chill.

Quote: You can find Childress type players at 2-3 mill/yr. No you can't. Chill does everything for this team, except shoot the ball well from the perimeter. He can play 3 positions on the floor, and is an exceptional athlete, offensive rebounder, and hustle guy. The same reason people want Smith, is the same reason they would pay lesser money for a glue guy like Chill as a starter or as a 6th man off the bench. Chill's value around the league is closer to a Battier, than it is to a James Jones. And Lord knows you just can't find a Battier on the side of the NBA road.

Quote: This is feeling more and more like AK-47 or Shawn Marion. Those guys, Smith included, are elite stat-stuffers who bring unique qualities to the court. But none of them are max-type players. It almost feels like anything less than max is almost considered disrespectful. It's stupid when a 5 year/$65M deal is somehow insufficient for a guy who still requires the "he's only XX" excuse, despite having played 300 NBA games. I agree. And I bet with all of this movement, that Shawn wishes he would've opted out of his deal too. Artest now says that he might have made a big mistake by not opting out. But you're right, the stat stuffers aren't worth top dollar. When you talk about Marion and AK, the major complaint from their fan base, always comes at playoff time when neither guy can be a consitent major factor on offense. Phoenix fans and the organization thought Diaw could make Marion expendible, with the wa he played in the '06 playoffs. Diaw's success came almost strictly from D'Antoni playing him as a point center, a position that no team in the NBA would dream of playing Diaw at. Then when their REAL point center came back ( Amare ), people quickly found out that he can't take PFs and SFs off the dribble as easily as he could those centers. Add that to the fact that he was still a reluctant jumpshooter, and those Phoenix fans QUICKLY turned on the guy.

Quote: Let's say the Sixers go loopy and offer something the Hawks are unwilling to match. We lose Smoove. Boo hoo.....I'm still a Hawks fan, dyed and dried......100%. I suggest we take the lesson to heart and sign Chills. Move Horford to PF and lock him up after next year. Take the savings and sign a Kwame or Randolph with an eye on holding the money for resigning JJ and making our own power play next off season. But, this Smoove issue will not make or break this team. I think we have allowed circumstances to cloud our view and Sund being an outsider is more likely to see the reality. Smooth is not a championship player in his current state. For all his ability and skill, if you put him on a bad team they will continue to be bad. He isn't Kevin Garnett or Dwight Howard, Chris Paurl, or Lebron. He can't lead a team by himself. At some point by giving him an outrageous contract you would be saying that he is that type of player. I like'n him to Kenyon Martin. The Nets lost Kenyon do to a stupid choice to let him reach free agency. But, it didn't destroy the franchise, and Denver never got their money's worth. Excellent point. And the ASG's "ace in the hole" in all of this, is AL HORFORD . . . the player that most Hawk fans would choose to have over Smith anyway. Losing Smith means that Horford gets to play the 4 almost full time, and may very well be a better fit there than Smith, and better for the team overall. Smith's performance in the playoffs spoke volumes to me, both good and bad. It showed the potential he has if he puts it all together, but it also showed just how far he has to go to even reach star player status, let alone all-star status. I was in Philips for both Games 3 and 6. The Smith that played in Game 3, was a player who played under control, played hard, and seemed to make all of the right plays. The Smith that played in Game 6, was reckless and totally out of control. Yet, we made our run in that game when Smith was on the bench, and Horford, Marvin, and Chill were leading the charge. Letting Smith go means that they definitely have to address the center issue from a defensive standpoint. If they have to do it by committee, then so be it. As I've said before, Smith embodies everything that is great and everything that is wrong with this team. I still say trade him for an all-star caliber player, if the ASG feels they can't afford to max him out. If they want to keep him, then match whatever comes their way. But if they match, they need to understand that Smith will be expected to be an offensive star, to justify this deal. And because of that, you're going to take shots away from better offensive players in the form of Horford and Williams, which in turn, may hurt the team. Smith's biggest value is defensively. His shot blocking ability is undeniable. At times he can also be a dominant rebounder. And his overall energy is fantastic. If the ASG feels that they can't do without, or replace Smith's defense, then they'll keep him. The funny thing to me in all of this, is that people believe that as currently constructed, we might not even be good enough to make the playoffs next year. They also believe that if Smith went to Philly, that Philly isn't a championship contender either. Yet, they're willing to keep Smith at all costs right here in ATL.

Quote: ...you are wrong and you are right. For cap purposes, a bonus counts against the cap but it is spread over the life of the guaranteed years. However, the bonus must be paid to the player in year 1. This makes sense. I'm definitely not a "capologist", but if given the right info, I can try to plug in the numbers. If the Hawks are sitting at 51 million in contracts right now for next year, and Smith ( with his new deal ) will make 19 million next year . . . according to Diesel, that would put the Hawks payroll around 70 million. And this is before even dealing with Chill. But if Smith's bonus doesn't fully count against the cap in full in the first year, and his starting salary is 11 - 12 million without factoring in all of that bonus money, then we still have some room to work with Chill, but very little room. Smith starting at 12 million and Chill starting at 7 million, equals 19 million between the 2 for next year . . .taking us "periously close to the luxury tax". And like Trace said, that bonus money is BIG TIME. It's the same reason why people who win the Powerball or Mega Millions almost NEVER take their winnings over a long period of time. They take the lump sum, even though that drasticaly reduces the amount of money they get overall. So if Trace's numbers are right, 8 million RIGHT NOW vs 900K over the coming months, is a no brainer to most people . . no matter how much they "love their city". And just think, Smith was probably making 300K or so a month last year. So it's getting a 600K increase in salary per month . . or . . getting 8 million extra RIGHT NOW, in addition to that 600K per month. That's why teams will frontload a contract when they really want a player, and don't mind paying upfront for their services.

Quote: Anyone ever think that maybe Josh Smith likes playing in his home town, and the only way he goes somewhere else is if the hawks totally low ball him or he gets traded. That's a possibility. But people make decisions everyday, because of money, especially money you can get in the short-term. Smith is on the verge of making 8 - 10 million more dollars next season, than he did last season . . if he re-signs with us. But if Philly frontloads a deal, he could make 14 - 17 million more next season, than he did last season. People see the millions, and don't think that there is much difference between 11 million and 14 million . . . da hell it ain't! JJ left a pretty good playoff team, partially because of the 20 million we paid him upfront. Yeah, he may have wanted to be "the man", and maybe wanted to play closer to home. But don't think for one second that possibly seeing his salary increase from 3 to 20 million, didn't play a major role in his decision to come to ATL. That's like working in some company in ATL making 30,000 a year, and them wanting to promote you to a position that will have you make $120,000 next year. You love ATL, and love the raise you're about to get. But then a company in Philly says that they'll pay you $200,000 next year to work for them. If you love ATL, but also like the role and the substantial pay raise you'll have with the company in Philly, which job are you going to choose?

Quote: All I'm saying is that if your going to spend 13 million a year you should aim higher than Josh Smith. Like Elton Brand? One thing is for sure, Smith should not be offered a deal over 5 yrs - 65 million or 6 yrs - 75 million. Sund should be on the phone with Brand's agent right now . . talking about a possible 4 yr - 65 to 70 million deal, if Philly goes crazy. If Philly wants to pull "a jack move" ( as Ice Cube once said ), and try to take both Chill and Smoove, then let them. Go get Brand, and make the team even better. Bibby JJ Marvin Brand Horford ( tell Marvin that his offensive role is about to increase, giving him even more incentive to improve his overall game ) Law Zaza ( both will get significant PT, with Law taking the majority of Chill's minutes ) Then play all of those scrubs that most of Hawksquawk whine about them not getting PT. Solo West Richardson Brand upgrades the starting unit tremendously, and gives us more balance on both ends of the floor. If Smith won't take a 5/65 or a 6/75 deal, let him walk and go HARD after Brand

It's true, they could match any offer for Smith and Chill. What most of us assume though, is that the owners aren't wanting to go past the Luxury Tax amount. If they do, they would actually have to pay the league dollar for dollar whatever amount we went over the luxury tax. If we're $50 over, we have to pay the league $50. If we're 5 million over, we pay the league 5 million. I've been a little different than most, and actually think that ownership may indeed be willing to go a little over the luxury tax amount, in order to re-sign both Smith and Childress.

Quote: I would wonder what might happen if Smith got to GSW and was played in a role similar to Biedrins. They'd love what he brought to the interior defense and he would be able to finish in transition and move around in all the space created by the GS shooters. Oh God . . Smith would be a flat out MONSTER in the Warriors system. This is the same team that played Harrington at center ( in place of Biendrins ) at times, and let Al do just about anything he wanted. Smith at the 5 in their system would be deadly. Whether he could take the physical pounding on the other end, is a different story. But a guy like Baron Davis would love feeding the ball to Smith either out on the break, or off penetration after people rotated toward him to double. Smoove could easily be a 21 ppg - 11 rebs guy in their system.

Quote: Northcyde, not surprised by your antics as usual...what a bad joke. It does too appear that you are referencing Shelden Williams, and what a stupid and asinine thing to add. We all know Shelden is not only inconsistent, but he also is nowhere near equipped to play Center, and furthermore, just does not have the talent to do so. Of course not . . . that's why he only averaged 16 and 11 and shot 67% in those final 5 games, instead of what a real center would average . .. 20 - 16 - abd shoot 80% FG. Question for you . . . how many time have you actually WATCHED Biendrins play? Because if you've watched him play, there is no way in hell you'd trade him for Smith, even if you did add an Azubuike to the mix. Beans is a scrapper, there is no doubt on that. But his offensive game is very limited. There are few guys in the league that have a worse jumper than Smith, and Biendrins is one of them. And with him, we're only talking at most from 10 - 12 feet away. His entire game is put backs, dunks, tips, and scoring 5 feet from the basket. Beans is also a streaky/horrible FT shooter and would be a major liability at the end of games. And as far as his defense goes, it is vastly overrated. He doesn't stop any halfway decent player in the post. I love stats, but you also have to watch how the guy plays and put everything together. You've watched Shelden play, so you dismiss those numbers he put up at the end of the 07 season as not the norm. The fact is when the guy got PT, he produced at a Biendrins-like clip, if not better.

Quote: Quote: I know of a player that in the final 5 games of the 06 - 07 season, averaged: 16 pts 11 rebs 2 blks 2 stls and shot 67% FG And when he got 25+ minutes of playing time, he averaged a double-double. And he's just a little bit older than Biendrins. Anybody know who I'm talking about? Oh Oh! Mr. Kotter! Would that be Shelden Williams? t (( talking like Richard Dawson on Family Feud )) "Peoria . . . if Shelden Williams is on the board, you win the game and get to play for the big money." (( pointing at the board )) "Is it . . . .Shelllllllllldennn Williaaaaams?" ((( DING !!! )))

Quote: It's not even--but they DONT play the same position. Dolfan, I broached this subject months ago in a possibility of a Smoove-for-Biedrins swap and was largely ignored. If there are no trade restrictions here (I'm assuming one or both of the cats would have to be signed before a trade could go through), it would mean several things: 1. Horford, who 99.9% of the world believes is a natural PF, gets to have his wish at the 4. 2. We bring in a consistent, young legit Center to man the 5 spot. 3. Biedrins is only 22 years old, consistent, and puts up the aforementioned 10/10/2. 4. Our interior defense improves. I hate when people suggest playing Horford and Zaza on the court together. Why? Because the interior defense would be so bad. Zaza doesnt play defense, but Biedrins certainly will. We dont need a Shaq [in his prime], we just needs someone who will play good or better defense--especially in the paint. Zaza doesnt do it, Horford will get better at it, but Biedrins already does. 5. Did I mention he is only 22? He will get better just like most young guys. But to put up those number already at his age, at one of the toughest positions in the NBA, is a good sign. 6. We lose Smoove, but get all of 1-5. People need to look at the big picture instead of "OMFGZ WE WONT HAVES SMOOVE AS ICE ANYMORE!!!!11!" If the money Philly or any other team approaches the near outrageous realm, then you have to consider deals like this. Until then, we should continue to make sure signing Smith to a decent contract is priority number one. I know of a player that in the final 5 games of the 06 - 07 season, averaged: 16 pts 11 rebs 2 blks 2 stls and shot 67% FG And when he got 25+ minutes of playing time, he averaged a double-double. And he's just a little bit older than Biendrins. Anybody know who I'm talking about? And if you do, maybe we should go get him instead. He'd be a lot cheaper to get, especially for next year.

Quote: Bad decision by Brand because there is no way he will get over 16 million from anyone unless he re-signs with the Clippers. Really? Watch the teams scramble to clear room for Brand . . . or flat out not re-sign some of their young talent. If you're a team like . . I don't know . . ATLANTA . . would a squad of . . . Bibby JJ Marvin Brand Horford . . . look enticng to you? He's the big man with the back to the basket skillset that everyone wants around here. He's also the perfect guy for Horford to pattern his game after. The only thing Smith does better than Brand, is block shots and run the floor. Everything else Brand does better. I don't think Elton is worried about how much he'll make next year, over how much he can make over the next 3 - 4 years, since NBA money is guaranteed. A 4 yr - 60 million deal probably gets Elton. He's a guy that I would definitely go after and sacrifice Smith in the process. If Memphis weren't in such bad financial shape, I'd hope they would go after a guy like that. Conley Mayo Gay Brand Marc Gasol But don't be surprised if teams will go after Brand, before they re-signed some of their young guys. Or what about this squad . . . Felton J-Rich Wallace Brand Mohammad ( while letting Okafor possibly walk ) . . .I know Larry Brown would definitely like that squad. But if Philly gets him . . . Miller Iggy Young Brand Dalembert . . . damn . . .they definitely stay ahead of us in the East.

Quote: yeah i'm ready to hear the other names....i think it's pretty much a given that most likely we'll sign both joshes, so lets hear other names we are thinking about as an organzition to fill out the roster. He doesn't do it because that's not nearly the issue that many of you are making it out to be. If we do re-sign both Smith and Childress, expect cast-offs and scrubs that you don't like, to fill out the roster. And expect one of those guys to be either AJ or Lue. Smith is priority #1. Chill is #2. Everything else is very miniscule compared to those 2.