TheNorthCydeRises

So if they go after Smoove, and we don't want to match, we just go after Brand ( if he opts out ) or try to take Iggy from them. Lineup 1: Bibby ( or Law ) Iggy JJ Marvin Horford With lineup 1, the success of that lineup would depend on if Marvin could effectively defend and rebound from the 4 spot. He'd at least have to grab 7.5 - 8 rebs a game, while still shooting somewhere in the high 40% range from the field. The funny thing about this, is that Marvin's 2nd most effective 5-man lineup from a win% standpoint, was when the lineup of Bibby - JJ - Chill - Marvin - and Smith was on the floor. Lineup #1 would have to be a great offensive group though, because they'd obviously be soft defensively. An Iggy - JJ pairing would be interesting though, seeing that both are unselfish players that can score if need be. or Lineup 2: Bibby ( or Law ) JJ Marvin Brand Horford If we lose Smoove, this is my lineup of choice. This lineup would be highly efficient in the halfcourt set, with Brand being a guy that you can run offense through when JJ is out of the game. We'd lose some of the shotblocking prowess that Smith brought to the table, but everything else would be an upgrade at that position, from shooting, to rebounding, to post scoring, the infamous BBIQ.

Quote: How did the Spurs win that game? Oh yeah, they made shots. And this isn't a problem anyway because we still have Smith and Horford who score inside, Acie is our future and he is definitely a slasher, and JJ can also post up and/or get inside. That's 4 out of 5. We NEED a shooting SF if those players are in our future starting lineup. They made shots and played tremendous defense. Inside scoring isn't a problem for this team? We don't have a single guy on this team that we can throw the ball to in the post, and expect him to convert. Smith takes people off the dribble, while Horford has a nice mid-range game from 12 - 18 feet. Our 2-guard is our best post player. Chill gets to the FT line 20% of the time, while Marvin gets there 15% of the time. And Marvin consistently knocks down open jumpers. They aren't 3s, but they're far enough out to keep opposng defenses honest. We win games when we rebound and defend well, not necessarily when we shoot well, even from long range. Take Marvin or Chill from this team, and replace one of them with a Kyle Korver or Anthony Parker like shooter that does only that . . shoot . . and you create additional problems while trying to solve one. Quote: If we keep Childress and Marvin, when will these shooters get PT? Chill is the 6th man and Marvin is the starter, so we would predominantly have non shooters in the lineup, that doesn't work. One-dmensional shooters usually don't log major minutes. Adding a shooter(s) to this team, and finding them minutes, won't be a problem at all . . if they make shots. No way I'd trade 30 minutes of Marvin or Chill, for 30 minutes of a Finley, Korver, Kapono, Parker, Posey, Morrison, Carroll, Szczerbiak, Nocioni, Q Richardson, Stackhouse, Peterson, Radmanovic, JR Smith, or Outlaw. Guys like that, you add to the current mix of talent here, and try to find 10 - 20 minutes a game for them. Your quality SGs/SFs who can do a multitude of things, like a Mike Miller, who can shoot, rebound, create for others, and even create his own jumpshot or get to the hole, are the type of guys you replace a Marvin or Chill with. But even with a move for Miller, you're solving a problem on offense, but weakening the defense. The final 4 teams left in the playoffs are all good defensive teams, not necessarily good shooting teams from behind the arc, though they have a few shooters on each squad. Quote: Marvin isn't a slasher AT ALL. He's actually one of the worst slashers and finishers in the entire NBA. But like I said it wouldn't matter anyway because we still have 4 starters in our future that can score well inside. Believe it or not, Marvin made 58% of his inside shots this year, 3% less than Smoove's 61%. That's pretty typical for a SF and much better than how he finished on the inside last year.

Quote: That is a very good post sir. Marvin isn't as bad as alot of them but what I want to know is is he going to become one of them. That will be answered by Marvins desire to work hard on his game. Like Jordan said in his commercial " Maybe its my fault. Maybe I gave you the illusion that I din't work hard(that maybe not word for word but you get what he was trying to say)." Marvin physically can put up the numbers he has so far in the NBA but he has to work on his body and game to become a true difference maker for this team. I think Marvin could very well have a career that parallels Keith Van Horn's, although Van Horn was better in his first 3 years. I think the only way Marvin becomes an all-star at this point, is if he's forced into a go-to guy role, via an injury to JJ and/or Smoove. Marvin is a team player that doesn't seek his own personal glory or accolades, over what's good for the team. Right now, he's content with being a very good complimentary player. He plays it safe and is not a risk taker. Smoove is the exact opposite. He actually wants to be "the guy", even if it means doing things he doesn't do well, that might hurt the team. The fan base likes that, until he does something that makes you cuss. Still, Marvin is improving and is on track to being a very good starter as early as next year. He was right there in the 1st half of the season. He's nowhere near a player that is in decline or has peaked, although many on this site want to believe that. He actually finished going to the hole a lot better this year, and drew a lot more fouls. His man defense improved this year as well. But he may not be that star player that we'd hoped he'd be. But he might be a great complimentary player that can be very effective alongside a star player. In a lot of ways, Van Horn was ridiculed in the same ways that Marvin is now. Those Jersey fans expected him to be the next Bird. When he didn't live up to that promise, they attacked him relentlessly, even when he played well.

Actually, when Pargo was trying to take over the game, all I could think about was Tyronn Lue. That's some stuff that "the Artist formerly known as The Closer" would do. As for Paul, what you saw tonight was a guy that didn't have enough confidence in his long range jumper to take over the game himself. He still did his thing by setting people up though. But like somebody else said, where was Peja? We all know he has a history of flat out disappearing in big games. But this should also be a lesson to some of you who think all we need are more shooters. When you go cold like the Hornets did in the 3rd, you have to take the ball to the hole and at least try to get to the line. Their defense was excellent in the 4th though, and Pargo almost saved the day for them with his shooting. But it was the cold stretch of shooting in the 3rd, without getting to the line, that got them in that hole in the first place. Don't trade all of our slashers, just to add shooters.

Quote: Marvin and Chillz both bring something important to our team. Chillz brings the hustle plays that every team needs and Marvin brings a very good mid range game that every team needs but the problem is neither one brings it every night. Good post. It's actually a luxury that we have both of them, because you can always justify going with the other guy on a nightly basis. Walter loves the TENDEX rating. Chill: 14.5 Marvin: 14.3 So in reality, they were pretty much equal this season . . if you swear by what TENDEX tells you. But then again, TENDEX also tells you that Iggy was a little better than JJ this season. How many Hawk fans would trade JJ for Iggy straight up?

Quote: Quote: The "system" looked pretty good, when Bibby was playing well. People forget that we had Tyronn Lue, Royal Ivey, Anthony Johnson, Salim Stoudamire, Josh Childress, Acie Law, and Joe Johnson trying to play PG here at some point in the past 4 years. Bibby is the first legit guy we've had here . . but even he isn't legit when he's not making shots. Most good to great offensive systems, have a good to great PG running the show. well we don't have a system period so that doesn't apply here.Chris Paul would look average under Woody.He can't throw oops to the big man if he stands still the whole time.He can't kick it out to a guy for an open shot because he'd be easily covered because he's been standing in one place for 24 seconds. Cwell . . . that is complete BS. Woody dang near gave Bibby complete control of the offense as soon as he got here. Our offense looked much, much better with Bibby . . when he passed and shot the ball halfway decent. Woody would give Paul free reign in this offense, and he'd instantly make everyone on the team more efficient . . starting with our captain. He'd damn near demand the ball from Smoove every time he try to race the ball up the court, because he'd tell Smoove that he'd find him for a highlight dunk about 2 - 3 times a game, just off the fast break. And JJ would never have to worry about playing long stretches at the point ever again.

The "system" looked pretty good, when Bibby was playing well. People forget that we had Tyronn Lue, Royal Ivey, Anthony Johnson, Salim Stoudamire, Josh Childress, Acie Law, and Joe Johnson trying to play PG here at some point in the past 4 years. Bibby is the first legit guy we've had here . . but even he isn't legit when he's not making shots. Most good to great offensive systems, have a good to great PG running the show.

Rudy Gay is the ish. There's no doubt that he's better than Marvin. Rudy Gay actually has Kobe-like athleticism, but not as skilled as Kobe. But because Gay is vastly better, that still doesn't make Marvin a bad player, like some are trying to make him out to be. And here's some perspective on the #2 pick. I'll list the last 10 #2 picks. You decide where Marvin ranks amongst this group, and if the other guys are playing at the "star" level that most expect Marvin to be playing at. It may be wise to look up what some of those guys were doing in their 3rd year as well: - Durant - Aldridge - Okafor - Darko - Jay Williams ( Duke PG ) - Chandler - Stromile Swift - Francis - Bibby - Van Horn Of this group of #2 picks the past 10 years, only Francis was good enough to make an all-star team.

Bibby was that solution for about a 3 week stretch in March. People are kind of forgetting that. Then he started playing like crap, and we started to become highly inconsistent because he wouldn't stop shooting. Bibby in March ( 17 games ): 15.5 ppg 6.8 apg 82% FT 44% FG 39% 3FG ( hit 38 threes ) Hawks record: 9 - 8 ( won 8 of their last 10 to close the month ) Bibby in April ( 8 games ): 13.4 ppg 6.3 apg 100% FT ( went 8 - 8 from the line ) 37% FG 33% 3FG Hawks record: 3 - 5 ( although we easily could've been 4 - 4 if we played regular rotation the usual minutes vs Miami ) Bibby in the playoffs ( 7 games ): 10.3 ppg 3.1 apg 66% FT 34% FG 29% 3FG ( 7 - 24 from 3 ) Bibby in the games @ Boston during the playoffs ( 4 games ) 6.25 ppg 1.25 apg 80% FT ( 8 - 10 from the line . . . ALL in Game 2 ) 25% FG ( 7 - 28 from the field ) 25% 3FG ( 3 - 12 from 3 ) When this team has good PG play, whether it be Bibby, Acie, or even when AJ was here, this team won. When the PG plays like crap, we lose most of the time.

Quote: To give him the benefit of the doubt the jury is still out on him. But one thing we haven't seen from him that we did from Smoove is for him to come back from the off season showing substantial improvement. Smoove went and added muscle and bulk, went to Houston to work on his game. Don't think we've seen that from MW and it needs to happen. He's got to work on the holes in his game . . . . and if he did that would make me feel a lot better about him. Really? You had people on this board back before Christmas wishing that Woody would call more plays for Marvin, because the kid was shooting the ball so well in November and December. He was easily our most consitent offensive player back then. Almost everybody, except the ususual Marvin haters thought the kid had all but turned the corner, and poised to have a Deng-like season. Ish . . he shot 50% FG in those 2 months and was good for double figure points just about each night, averaging 17 ppg. Those nagging injuries set him back a little in February, but he picked it right back up in March and April. But with Bibby in the mix, both he and Smoove got better looks, but a little less touches in the offense because Bibby was shooting more than they were on some nights.

Floyd, some in this fan base are absolutely CRAZY. Marvin and Chill are two TOTALLY DIFFERENT PLAYERS that perform in 2 TOTALLY DIFFERENT WAYS. I think thoe of us who don't have a agenda against either player, can see that. For a guy that is supposedly one-dmensional, Marvin sure does get to the FT line a lot, even though he didn't even attempt over 1,000 shots this year. Very few "shooters" can get to the like over 15% of the time, like Marvin can. That's a very important aspect of his game that he can continue to develop, along with his shooting. LOL . . but people contend that he is a bust. Chill is an energy guy that does a lot of things to spark this team. His ability to get to the hole, even though he doesn't have much of a jumper, is an important part of his game. Because of his hustle and energy, Chill gets to the line an awfully lot. His ability to rebound on the offensive end is also huge for this team. But some absolutely dismiss these aspects of his game as being not really important to this team. For those of you that recorded Game 6, go back and watch that game. You'll see the best of Marvin and Chill on display. Each guy played a critical role in that victory that night. Yes, Marvin does have more of a chance to be significantly better than Chill as their careers progress, because Marvin has more tools in his offensive game. But Chill, as long as he stays healthy and gets 26 - 30 minutes a game, can be a perennial 11 - 15 point and 5 - 7 rebound guy for the next 5 - 7 years. Translation: Neither player is some scrub that we shoud just arbitrarily give away, just to obtain a better shooter or to add depth. Both players have proved that they can co-exist, and compliment each other . . and the team . . very well. With a 7 - 8 deep roster, the obvious thing to do is just go out and ADD another shooter, while keeping BOTH Marvin and Chill. A lot of you are semi-believrs in David Andersen, so maybe he can provide that. Even with Andersen, we should still look to add a FA shooter. If Jeremy Richardson wasn't totally clueless on defense, he could be that guy for 5 - 8 minutes a night. You only move these guys for a proven low post scorer ( something we still don't have ), or a vet star perimeter guard/forward that could compliment JJ better. But let's keep it real folks. Marvin or Chill aren't the reason why we lose games, or why we lost in the playoffs. Bibby was supposed to be the guy that not only put to rest our PG issue, but also be the one who could provide a tremendous boost to our outside shooting prowess. He did just that for about 3 weeks in March, but started to tail off in April. Then he flat out sells us out in the Playoffs, especially with the games in Boston. Trade Marvin or Chill? Ish . . how about trading Bibby for either Kidd, or even a guy like Marbury.

Quote: Title of thread should be will Marvin be a clutch player? I say no he doesn't have that killer instinct but to answer the question he isn't a bust but should be alot better for the no2 pick. Actual top 10 picks of the 2005 Draft: Bogut M. Williams D. Williams Paul Felton Webster Villaneuva Frye Digou Bynum 3rd year view of this class: Bogut ( solid starter ) M. Williams ( solid starter ) D. Williams ( all-star ) Paul ( superstar ) Felton ( solid starter ) Webster ( inconsistent bench player ) Villaneuva ( inconsistent starter/bench player ) Frye ( solid bench player, but in a bad situation to get more PT ) Digou ( borderline bust/inconsitent bench player ) Bynum ( solid starter before injury ) New top 10 of how this overall draft class performed in the 3-year period: 1) Paul - superstar/MVP caliber player. Possibly a top 5 all-time PG before his career is over. 2) D. Williams - looking like a perennial all-star, with potential to reach superstar status, but may always be 2nd fiddle behind Paul if he stays in the West. 3) Monta Ellis - rapidly improved when he became a starter, who may reach all-star consideration status in a year or two. The fastest player in the league that is a very good penetrator and mid-range shooter. 4) Danny Granger - benefitted from trades, change in tempo, and O'Neal injury to see him develop into a very good starter at SF. Development of 3-point shot has helped him be more potent offensvely. 5) Bogut - solid starter that is steadily improving. May be one of the best big men in the NBA in a few years if he gets stronger around the rim. 6) M. Williams - versatile forward that is steadily improving as a starter. Only needs to develop the 3-point shot, or become a better slasher to add to his very good mid-range game, to really break out as an offensive player. 7) Felton - a decent PG that keeps improving each year, although leadership abilities have been questioned. Will improve even more if he shoots less 3-pointers and drive more, because he's not a good perimeter shooter. 8) Andrew Bynum - had a lackluster first 2 years in the league, but looked very good for 2 months this year. So good, that you have to move him into the top 10. Hopefully knee injury won't set his development back next year. 9) David Lee - a scrappy forward that is good enough to be a great bench player or decent starting forward. 10) Villaneuva - a decent scoring forward that plays very little defense, but will always see time because of his offensive capabilities. When you look at the current top 10, you're looking at 10 players who will be in the league for the next 7 - 12 years, barring a major injury. And all of these guys, with maybe the exception of Lee and Villaneuva, are improving enough to be star caliber players in a few years.

So how much of this robot version of JJ, that will be the perfect basketball player, going to cost? Maybe we can get Optimus Prime and the Autobots to build us one on the cheap. It still wouldn't matter, if his teammates couldn't make shots, defend, or rebound. Just ask LeBron.

Of course not. Because concrete evidence means nothing to some of you.

He doesn't even get the ball during crunch time. JJ, Smoove, or Bibby are taking all of the shots. I'm not saying that Marvin shouldn't be better than he is. He could be a better rebounder, especially on the offensive boards. He could be a more active player overall. And he could definitely try to develop a 3-point shot. But some of you cats talk like he is straight garbage. Like he's Matt Freije or somebody.

Quote: Marvin dribbles off his foot too,he falls while trying to dribble.Marvin has ZERO grace.he's a clutz.I hate how Smith dribbles instead of giving it to the PG too but he does not dribble off of his foot.His problem is when he needs to make a decision,that's why the Pg should have the ball,Smith needs to be the finisher.Smith runs like a gazelle,that's graceful.He makes moves that Marvin couldn't make (that normal athletes do in their sleep).I'm not talking up Smith it's just that Marvin is just that BAD of a basketball player.Smith has thing she can improve upon.U can't teach coordination,u can't teach natural basketball instincs. It's ish like this that kills me about this board concerning Marvin. I mean, you read something like this, and you'd think that Marvin averaged 6 ppg, grabbed 3 rebs, and shot 38% FG and 61% FT. You CANNOT be a bad basketball player, and average almost 15 ppg, 6 rebs, 1 steal, shoot 46% FG, and shoot 82% FT. Some of you are mad because he's not a "star" basketball player because he was the #2 pick. That DOES NOT make him a BAD basketball player. That makes him a guy that's not a star. I want somebody to show me a bad basketball player who is putting up those numbers across the board. Going by ESPN.com's stats, in which you can break down how SF's play in each category. - Marvin was 14th overall in scoring amongst all SFs in the league - 9th in rebounding - 11th in FG shooting - 11th in FT shooting - 21st in assists - 17th in steals - 19th in blocks - 19th in minutes played - 10th in double-doubles - 18th in turnovers Yet, if you listen to people rant and rave about him on this board, you'd think he was the worst SF to EVER put on a Hawk uniform, and one of the worst SFs currently in the league.

Quote: First of all for those of us who have played basketball on some level outside of the local church.. Let's get some definition. High Post is at the key intersection. (this is where Marvin plays). ( about 12 feet) High Elbow or WING is at the intersection of the three point line and the interpolated line made by the key. this is where Smoove normally lines up. (about 16 feet). Low post is down beside the goal (rt or lft) at the base of the foul line that is now drawn for all to see and count fouls by. LMAO. This wll be my last post on this thread, because you have absolutely no clue of what you're talking about. Marvin never lines up 12 feet from the basket. If you actaually watched games, or re-watched them, you'd know this. Sometimes, in the double-low offense, he'll be along the baseline and come off a screen toward the elbow area and receive a pass to shoot his jumper. Quote: IF Smoove played High post where Marvin sets up, that wouldn't be so much of a problem. However he plays higher on the elbow. That's why he always has those wide open 3 point opportunities. Marvin plays at the most at the high post. That's why he never takes three pointers. Smith usually lines up somewhee between the FT line and the top of the key, on either side. Marvin is always out by the 3 point line on the wing, or along the baseline. As a play develops, Marvin will either stay 21 or so feet from the basket and wait for the ball, or take a step or two in, so that he can shoot the 18 foot jumper. Smith, if he receives the ball in this area, and is isolated on a PF, he'll look to drive the ball to the hole. If he's 20 feet or more away, his man will back off, looking for him to drive. That's normally when Smith will take the long jumper. Quote: I don't need your resume of games watched, I read your diatribe about Smoove having to change his game and drive from outside. If you were at all these games 300 miles away from home, you would notice that we use Smoove more like a SF than a PF. He's not a Karl Malone/Shawn Kemp PF for if he were he'd be located where Marvin plays in the high post. Smith has a limited post up game and a terrible jumpshot. So we use him to play to his strength, which is driving the basketball against slower PFs. That's why he's a "tweener". Quote: He's normally set up at the wing or the high elbow position. Moreover, you might be mad because Smoove is shooting 25% and he takes the shot anyway. But for me, even when he hits an open three, I'm mad that he took the shot because when the team backs off of him, he needs to have it in his mind to drive and make them foul him! Exactly. I'm mad when he takes that open 3 pointer, because I know he'll miss it 75% of the time. And that's why he should drive and make them foul him. Either that, or pass up the shot and get the ball to someone else. Quote: My commentary about Smoove all year long has been that he's afraid to take the ball inside. He needs to drop this fineese crap and become a true to life beast. He can do it in Woody's disjointed offense, but he has to make smart decisions. I agree. That's why my sig during all last summer was "I want to see less Rasheed Wallace, and more Shawn Kemp, out of Josh Smith this season." Quote: One of the rules of basketball... Take more than what the defense gives you. Because the defense is always looking to give you the hardest shot. With Smoove's handle and athleticism, he should be at the rim every play! That's what frustrates me. So you actually agree with me in how he should play. But you have such an agenda against Marvin starting, that you'd put Smith at SF out on the perimeter . . with a quicker man guardng him . . which would hamper him getting to the hole . . which would entice him to take even more 18 - 23 foot jumpers that he can't consistently make. This is Josh Smith in a nutshell: Game 6 - 3rd quarter ( 9:32 left ) - Hawks have the ball on a side-out - they trail Boston 57 - 51 Hawk player positions at time of inbounds pass: - JJ is inbounding the ball - Bibby is 6 feet away from JJ, near the Philips Arena logo - Horford is in the low block on the right side - Smith is between the FT line and the top of the key in the middle - Marvin is just inside the 3 point line in the left corner Play development: - Bibby gets the inbounds pass, then gets the ball back to JJ who is about 21 feet from the basket. - Horford rotates toward the top of the key, possibly looking to set a pick - Smith slides over to almost the 3 point line on the left side. - Marvin takes a few steps closer to the basket, and stops at around the 18 - 20 foot mark along the left baseline - Perkins rotates toward JJ to help Ray Allen double him. - Seeing this, JJ immeadiately spins, and goes hard to the goal along the baseline - As Perkins and Allen force JJ to the baseline and under the basket, Garnett and Pierce also react to JJ - There are literally 4 Celtics within 3 feet of JJ, and he's completely under the goal, looking to pass to someone. Hawk player positions at the time of the pass: - JJ is trapped and looking to pass - Marvin is just inside the 3 point line on the baseline, ready to receive the pass - Hoford drifts back down on the right side, to around 15 feet, but he is behind JJ and can't see him. - Bibby is still behind the 3 point line on the right side. - Smith is also behind the 3 point line, on the left side, ready to receive the pass. Play development: - The easiest pass for JJ to make, is to Smith. - Smith catches, but fumbles the ball a little. - Rondo rotates toward Smith, then realizes that he just left Bibby wide open, so he stops halfway and races back toward Bibby - Smith, who is wide open, takes the 3 pointer with Garnett half-heartedly jumping out at him. Result: An air ball Comment from Mark Jackson right after that play: "If you're the Hawks, you have to realize that they're double teaming Joe Johnson, so put yourself in position to catch and make a play." The reason why Jackson says this, is because if Smith would've drifted toward the goal as JJ was driving and being trapped, JJ could've easily found Smith for a dunk, if Smith catches the pass and goes hard to the rim. At the very least, he possibly gets fouled on the play. Instead, he stays out on the perimeter, and misses a shot badly. ********** But the beauty of Smith as a player playing the PF position, is that on the ensuing Celtic possession, KG tries to quickly establish post position on Smith down the court. Rondo gets the ball to Garnett, who thinks he has an easy lay-up, but Smith blocks the shot. If he wasn't at PF and matched up against KG, he wouldn't have been able to make that play. Then on the next Hawk possession, Smith ( who is in the high post around 12 - 15 feet from the basket ), receives a pass from Bibby. He immeadiately throws a bounce pass to Horford, who hits a nice hook shot in the lane. As the late Johnny Cochran would say . . . . " I have nothing else to add your Honor."

Stuckey can flat out ball. There was little question of that when he entered the draft. The major knock on him was the level of competition he was going up against, with him playing at Eastern Washington. So of course, he got discriminated against a little. Before the draft last year, I said that Stuckey could very well be a top 7 player in the draft. But I also said that about Law as well. And to be honest, with the way we played in the playoffs with JJ being the main ballhandler and facilitator in the halfcourt offense, Stuckey would've been a nice fit here. He would've been a guy who could've created his own shot and knock down open jumpers. He's also a solid defensive player. And no, Stuckey didn't come into a better situation than Acie. Acie only had AJ and Lue in front of him. If it wasn't for AJ's temper tantrum during the preseason, in which he was seeing very little PT, which caused Woody to start AJ to start the season, Acie could've very well been the starting PG at the beginning of the year. And I still believe that if it wasn't for his injury during the Charlotte game in November, Acie is the starter by mid-December. But AJ played great in December, and kept the job. Then he follows that up with a crap January. From a PG standpoint, Acie probably will be better. But Stuckey's ability to create and score, might see him put up bigger numbers. But Acie has to really start acting like the "leader" PG that he was in college. He has to have the mindset that this is his team when he is in the game, and look to make something happen either scoring wise or passing wise.

Quote: Quote: Quote: 80 - 90% of the people on this site know all of this, yet, you STILL make a case for him playing the 3. I almost have to ask WTF are you watching? Quote: You put him at SF, and he will have trouble getting to the rim like that because not only will the SF be as quick or quicker than he is, he'll have to worry about the PF or C rotating to him and contesting the shot. Right now, if he gets past his man at PF, he usually has a lay-up. Quote: This is Northcyde's statement. However, the problem is that this is the statement of a person who doesn't watch the Hawks much. LMAO . . suuuuuuuuuuuuurrrrreeee budddddddddyyyyyyy !! You forget . . . I'm the cat that was telling all of you even before the season started, to RECORD THESE GAMES, because that's exactly what I, and a few others do. I'm also the cat that traveled 300 miles to ATL to see Hawks games in person 8 times this year ( twice during the playoffs ). I watch tapes of the Hawks all the time. Save that "he doesn't watch Hawks games much" ish for somebody who really doesn't. Quote: In essence, Smoove already plays the Sf. Smoove doesn't play in the post now. Smoove play high elbow or wing. Most of us that have played organized basketball, call that a high post offense, where the center ( or best low post player ) will play in the low post, and the power forward will play in the high post. It's the same spot where PFs like KG, Duncan, Bosh, and especially Amare Stoudamire receive the ball. Quote: The reason why most of us get upset with his shooting habits is because he takes those wide open shots. That's generally because when he gets the ball at the wing... He's wide open. Teams are willing to give him that shot. We get upset because he makes less than 30% of his outside shots. That's like hitting below .200 in baseball. Nobody would have a problm with him, if he'd just pick nd choose his spots to go hard to the hole. But you want him to stand 20 feet from the basket, and have the opponent literally dare him to shoot. People like KG and Rasheed even talk ish to him, when daring him to shoot. Quote: Over the second half of the season, Smoove learned to pass up the open shot and drive. That's great. At SF, Marvin doesn't play wing. Marvin plays High post & midrange. He's always in the midrange. That's about 2 steps in front of where Smoove plays. IF we were to switch Smoove to Sf (where Marvin plays) he would have a shorter distance than he has now to get to the rim. He would also have an easier shot. Now that's just idiotic. Marvin always sets up about a step inside the 3 point line, whether it be along the baseline or from the wing. Marvin is a catch and shoot guy, and he likes to literally jump into his shot as he's catching a pass, then shoot. Marvin's jumpers almost always come from 18 - 22 feet from the basket. The elbow is right outside the FT line on either side, about 15 - 18 feet from the basket. When he gets the ball in that area, he's in a perfect position to drive the ball, much like Amare ( and Diaw ) does. But when someone like JJ has the ball, and is looking for the open man, Smith tends to drift out toward that 3 point line, where he knows he'lll be open. So when a doubled JJ throws it to him, he's 22 ft from the basket, and his man pretty much makes no effort to close him out hard. That's when he shoots. Quote: Here's the other thing. ABout Cs and PFs rotating in front of Smoove. Smoove is a much better ball handler than Marvin. You ever notice that when Marvin drives, bigs rotate and Marvin runs them over... OFFENSIVE CHARGE... Well, when Smoove drives now from the high elbow, guys rotate, but Smoove does a very good job of not causing the offensive foul. Maybe some stathead can find those numbers. The point is that driving would definitely put Smoove on the line. Smoove was meant to be a slasher. With Smith, it's not just the charges, it's those Magic Johnson passes he tries to make. Sometimes they work. Most of the time they don't. Kind of like his jumper. People jump in front of Smith all the time. Quote: This is the deal though... Smoove shoots 50% from the field. So when he gets the ball at the high elbow. He either drives or finds his way around the goal or even shoots from the elbow and hits 50% of his shots. 50% my friend is 50%. That means common sense in this case, is one man's opinion with the wrong basis. It's 50% at PF, not SF. Put him at SF, and it's jumpshot city for Smoove, and a low 40% overall FG%. Then he'll start to pout like AK47 did, when Sloan would occasionally go with Matt Harpring at the end of games. You'd expose every flaw in Smith's game, instead of playing to his strengths, just for the sake of benching Marvin.

I agree. You only trade Smith for another star caliber player. If the Mavs have something in mind, it has to be some sort of multiple team deal that sees us getting a very nice player in return. Marvin is pretty much progressing at the same exact rate as Howard, so it would be redundant to trade for a guy like Josh Howard. So if they want Smith, talk to another team that can send us a very good player, because Dallas has nothing we can use, outside of Dirk. And I also agree that Smith should work on everything besides shooting in the offseason. Work on a go-to move in the post. Get stronger. And most importantly, get and plat tougher.

Quote: We would all love to see Smoove become a great slasher who takes people off the dribble. However, it's not right for us to penalize him because he is not that. And that's what I see a lot in posts. I have put the numbers here for a reason. Not just for Smoove but for the Hawks. IN the second half, Smoove only shot 43 three pointers. IF you listen to the daily gripes about Smoove, you would think he was shooting 5 a game. Salim Stoudamire who sees limited action shot more three pointers than Smoove over the 2nd half of the season. Like another poster said, it's not just the 3-pointers, it's jumpshots PERIOD. You want numbers? Here are some numbers for you. It's been widely documented that Smith shoots 25% from 3-point range. But 82games.com has some great detailed stats on how our top 5 guys for most of the season shoot ( JJ, Smoove, Marvin, Horford, and Chill ) . - Smith shoots 25% on 3-point shots - Smith shoots 29% on 2-point shots that aren't at point blank range - Smith shoots over 60% on point blank ( inside ) shots - Smith is #5 in the league in "and-1" opportunities But you, and a small few others INSIST that Smith would be OK at the 3. Forget that 25% number from 3, the 29% number from 2 is more damning, in my opinion. The majority of those 2 point shots are all of those 16 - 21 foot jumpers that he loves to take . . and miss. To put just how bad that is in perspective, Horford shoots 39% on those 2 point shots, which is actually good for a big man. ( and is actually closer to Marvin's 41% on those shots ). Zaza shoots 31%, which is horrible, but still better than Smith. Only Chill is worse, at 28%. But even Chill can shoot in the mid-30% range on those wide open 3's. The difference, is that Chill will take almost everything to the hole. He rarely setttles for jumpers, even when open. But the fact that Chill only shoots 28% on 2 point shots that arent at point blank range, is a MAJOR reason why people don't like Childress. Meanwhile, Smith is #5 in the league in possible "and-1s". #5 in the league. He's up there with some of the elite players in the league in this category. And the reason he's #5 is because most PF's can't check him when he puts the ball on the floor. If he'd get a little more aggressive going to the hole, he'd either convert more lay-ups or dunks or get fouled even more. He is a very legit offensive weapon when he plays like this. Quote: So now people like Exodus says.. Well, he's shooting Ty Corbin Jumpshots... My response is this. Over the second half of the season, Smoove shot 47.8% from the field. That includes his 25% from 3... and those Ty Corbin Jumpers. If you take the 3pters away, he's shooting 49.4% on 499 shots attempted. I don't think anybody has a problem with dude hitting damn near 50% on his shots.. And I can almost guarantee you that he shot that high because most of his makes were coming from point blank range. Bibby got that kid a lot of easy looks. If nba.com had our "hotspots" data updated for this year, we could see this for sure. You put him at SF, and he will have trouble getting to the rim like that because not only will the SF be as quick or quicker than he is, he'll have to worry about the PF or C rotating to him and contesting the shot. Right now, if he gets past his man at PF, he usually has a lay-up. 80 - 90% of the people on this site know all of this, yet, you STILL make a case for him playing the 3. I almost have to ask WTF are you watching?

Quote: Poster:"The sky is a really weird color today." Diesel: "True, but that's because Marvin sucks and moreover we should look to trade him for any garbage that we can get?" LOL . . gotta love "Dieselogic". In his "six degrees of separation" world, everything relates back to Marvin.

And Smith, as of right now, is on the frontpage of hoopshype.com

Good post Frog. And the thing that people need to really understand about going into next year, is that if we bring this current group back, it will be the 4th full year that JJ, Smoove, Marvin and Chill have played with each other. And each one of those guys are steadily improving as players. Not a single one of those players are on the decline, or has leveled off as a player. And when you add a vet like Bibby and a beast like Horford to that mix, that's going to be a formidible group to deal with next year. And with Lue and AJ out the way, that clears more time for Acie to develop ( if Speedy doesn't take minutes away from him IF he is healthy ). Instead of worrying about the teams behind us, people should be looking at who we have a legit chance to leapfrog. Philly, Toronto, and Washington are definitely squads that we can overtake. The Hawks played about like what most of the fan base expected, and played MUCH better than anyone expected during the playoffs.

Quote: Are you arguing that Smith had trouble defending the quicker Outlaw or that Smith should be used offensively like Outlaw....?? He can't be used like Outlaw offensively, because he doesn't have Outlaw's perimeter or ball skills. I was referring to when Smoove could do nothing to contain Outlaw during that Portland game in ATL. I don't put the blame on him though. That has to go all on Woody, because that was a bad matchup for Smoove in the first place. Nobody could've contained Outlaw that day though. But it illustrates that if Smoove can't even contain a marginal SF like Outlaw, he'd have major trouble against the top tier SFs. But let Outlaw go to the hole, with Smith lurking off of his man, and he may find that shot blocked out of bounds.