TheNorthCydeRises

Quote: Man... You guys don't remember do you?? This is what happened. We started off with Al/Walker... we played Chillz some at 2, but he started slowly. We then moved Smoove in there and he started getting recognition because of his finishes and shot blocking. After that... Walker and Harrington went down. So it was Smoove and Chillz playing the 3 and 2 respectively.. And down the stretch they looked good. So good that it made no sense to go out and draft Marvin... because we had 5 guys who could play Sf and no real PG or C. LOL @ this. You make the claim that we didn't need Marvin, because Smoove and Chillz were playing well down the stretch. Do you remember who else was playing well down the stretch? Tyronn Lue. Lue was good in March and April of that season as well, even though we only won 3 games after the all-star break. In fact, he was better than both Chill and Smoove. Did that mean that we didn't need a PG as well? If we'd been lucky enough to get the top pick, Andrew Bogut would probably be our center right now. And when Bogut wouldn't have panned out, I guess people would be crying about not drafting Paul, Deron or Marvin ( if he happened to play well with another team ) Once Bogut was off the board, Marvin was picked because: 1) we needed talent, regardless of position . . hell, we needed bodies period 2) Harrington was going into his last year of his contract, and we probably wasn't giving him a big money extension, so he would most likely be gone by the next summer. 3) Guys like Hughes, Allen, and Redd never really considered ATL a destination, even if they got max money from us. 4) There was no talk of JJ on the radar at the time of the draft. 5) Very few "experts" thought that neither Paul nor Deron would be star caliber PGs. Those same people thought Marvin could be a star in 3 - 4 years. Whether people believe it was the right pick or not, I've always understood why the Hawks chose Marvin over the PGs.

Not a Heels fan. I don't hate them, but definitely not a fan of them. I bleed Orange ( Tennessee Orange and Syracuse Orange ). The only teams I truly hate are Florida and UCONN.

Diesel, quit changing your position on this. I think all of Hawksquawk would agree on who we'd rather have on the team. Of course we'd all rather have Smoove. But not the Smoove that plays SF. The Smoove that plays SF is an undisciplined, low BBIQ type player that takes a plethora of bad shots, turns the ball over a lot, and isn't nearly quick enough to stay with the average SF. He'll hit a 3 pointer on occasion, and will still give you the highlight dunk on the fast break. But overall, his potential is severely suppressed playing SF. The Smoove that plays PF, is still an undisciplined player, but he's an ATTACKING player. He attacks the rim on offense. He attacks the glass on defense. He gets many more block shots because he's closer to the rim. And he's learning not to "settle" for open 20 foot shots when he's at the 4. Most important, he's in the middle of the action, which forces him to stay active on both ends. ***** Out of the 154 shots he took in November, 46 were threes. Forty-six. That's 30% of the shots he jacked up. That's not counting all of the mid-range jumpers from 15 - 22 feet that he took. And he shot 24% from 3, and 36% from the field that month. Surely that's not the Smoove you want playing for the Hawks, is it? The Seattle/Atlanta shot chart for the game in November tells you all you need to know about Smoove. http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/shotchart?gameId=261111001 Good lord, even Chill was outscoring Smoove back in November, and shot 58% FG in the process, before he got hurt. If you want to make a case for anybody other than Marvin playing SF, it's Childress, not Smoove. But "one-dimensional" Marvin at SF is better than Smoove at SF, because Marvin won't make nearly the amount of bad plays that Smoove will. If you truly want the Hawks to win, you should NEVER want to see Smoove getting extended minutes at the SF position. I'd rather see him at center, than at small forward. Smoove is a mediocre player when he plays SF. He's a potential All-Star when he plays PF.

Quote: Great debate, but the fact is, we have Smooth, plus 3 other forwards in which we invested a #2, a #3, and a #5 pick respectively. The debate is not really a matter of which 2 (or 3) should get the minutes at forward, but whether one of them can play significant minutes at center. If not, a trade simply has to happen. Zaza cannot tote the load, by himself, for a playoff team. One of the things that I've been saying for over a year now, is that the future "center" of the Hawks might very well be JOSH SMITH. Look at his positoin progression the past 3 seasons: 04 - 05: hybrid 2/3 05 - 06: played mainly the 3 . . with spot duty at the 4 06 - 07: hybrid 3/4 . . that also played the 5 on spot occasions 07 - 08: will mainly play the 4, while also possibly playing the 5. Do you know of any other player that fits this mold? I do. He got a 5 year - 45 million dollar contract last summer, because he used his athleticism to take advantage of slower 4's and 5's. One of Diesel's way of justifying Shelden playing center, is for the Hawks to play a lot of zone defense. If we did that, he could definitely man the middle, because he's a smart defensive player and an excellent rebounder. When we try Horford at center, this same principle will probably apply to him as well. Horford should also be able to play good man to man defense in the post. But this also could pretain to Smoove, because of his superior athletic ability and timing in blocking shots. In a zone, he'll also stay close to the basket in order to grab rebounds. It's this facet of his game that's going to take Smoove to the next level, not his outside shooting. He's shown very little improvement in his outside shooting in his 3 years in the league, and there's no reason to believe that it will improve much next year. But he has improved tremendously as a guy who can get to the rim against guys bigger and slower than him. And he's a better shot blocker and rebounder overall now too. There's no reason why this kid can't be a 10 - 13 rebound per game guy in the league . . next year. But he has to become a guy who isn't afraid to battle, like Marion isn't afraid to. Smoove has the mindset of a Rasheed Wallace, but the body and athleticism of Shawn Kemp. I want to see more Kemp, and less Rasheed, out of Smoove.

Quote: Other than shooting jumpers Marvin has pretty much no game. Him going to the basket is a blocked shot waiting to happen, his rebounding isn't overly impressive, his defense isn't all that impressive either. Obviousally he can improve, but he hasn't shown that he deserves to start over Smoove. First off, this isn't about him deserving to start over Smoove. But if it comes down to Marvin starting at SF or Smoove starting at SF . . lol . . I'm starting Childress, but that's another topic. A stat junkie like me loves that nba.com/hotzones site. It tells a lot of truth about players. As for Marvin going to the hole . . Dec: 46% FG Jan: 40% FG Feb: 54% FG Mar: 51% FG Apr: 59% FG Marvin is a whole lot closer to having a breakout season than people think. If he can finish around the rim at least 55% of the time all year, he'll be poised to have breakout offensive season. By the way, go to that nba.com/hotzones site, and check out Luol Deng . . in 2005. Then check it in 2006. Amazing to see how the guy improved in his 3rd year. And he improved by almost abandoning the 3 point shot, and concentrating on being a deadly mid-range shooter and better finisher around the rim. Sound familiar?

Quote: Quote: The thing that bothered me most about Marvin is that he couldn't hit underneath the goal with strong consistency. Because he is a perimeter player who was not strong enough to finish like he will in the future! What should have bothered you more was Josh Smith not being able to hit perimeter shots since you want him at the 3 so badly! WOW !! I love this site already. If you click on each zone, it'll give you what that player shot from that area in a particular game and how many points he scored there. The most depressing thing that this site shows about Smoove, is that he has MAJOR trouble scoring within that 5 - 15 foot zone ( 13 - 59 . . 22% FG ). This illustrates that he has A LOT of work to do as an inside player, as well as his outside game. I have noticed that he does hit the top of the key jumper on occasion, and this at least backs that up ( 42% clip ). Mid-range, it'll do him good to be around that 40% mark, while improving to close to 47% from inside 15 feet. It also proves that as long as he plays the 4, and gets to the rim, he'll be OK, because he can use his athletic ability to his full advantage. But I see now why he is trying to work on all facets of his game down in Houston. Smoove should really try to pattern his game after Shawn Marion. Marion has the same shortcomings as a shooter/scorer, but he's worked hard at overcoming those obstacles by becoming a demon on the boards. Other observations: Chill: Needs to be a little more consistent from the left side, since that's where he shoots most from. But he's a "get to the rim" type player that plays to his strengths. Speedy: Ugh!! UNACCEPTABLE! If he shoots like this in NOvember, Lue or Law will have his job and Speedy will become a defensive specialist, seeing 15 - 20 minutes a game. His history doesn't show this trend though, so let's hope that he shot bad because of the injuries, and not because his game is in decline. JJ: JJ is the ish. To have 3 of the 4 inside zones in the red, means that you are a very efficient player when you get that shot on the inside. And remember that FT shooting thread about JJ? This shot chart puts me at ease even more about that. Only troubling thing I see here, is that JJ has a little trouble from the right mid-range side. ( It's average for everyone else, but a little below average for JJ ) Ironically, he's money from the 3 point line from that side. ZaZa: Although the zones don't indicate cold shoting, the fact that ZaZa doesn't shoot over 40% in any of the zones from 5 - 15 feet, is grounds for concern. And it's the biggest proponent for starting Horford at center. And to me, he's taking waaaay too many shots from the 15 - 23 foot range. Salim: When I was evaulating Marvin and his shooting back in January, I'd also look at other players. One of those players was Salim. When he misses, he's rushing his shot and is a little off balance. The mid-range jumper is the key to Salim being a successful role player in this league, not the 3 pointer. He shot the mid-range jumper extremely well in those final 10 games, but overall, he shot aound 40% from the 15 - 23 feet range. While Smoove probably needs to raise his mid-range shooting to the 40% mark, Salim probably needs to be around the 45 - 47% mark. Marvin: Strange to see Marvin's scoring around the rim take a dive ( 48% ), compared to the 54% he shot last year. His shooting from the 5 - 15 feet range improved, although it could be better. Ditto for his mid-range shooting, although he became a much better shooter from the elbow than he was last year. If he becomes a better finisher around the rim, Marvin has a chance to really have a breakout year next year. If not, expect the same from Marvin, as he occasionally knocks down the mid-range jumper, while looking extremely awkward going to the hole. Shelden: He likes the right side of the court, so those cool zones from the left side dont concern me much. What does concern me, is that he shouldn't be THAT BAD from the left side, especially within 15 feet. If Shelden has ANY SHOT of shooting 50% next season, he'll need to either become highly efficient from the right side from 20 feet and in . . or he'll have to be able to do what he did in those final 10 games of the season, and get to the rim by making himself available to be open, or make a move in the post to get a lay-up. As a team: It's troubling to me to see the Hawks only shooting around 40% from the 5 - 15 feet range. Even our 54% shooting around the basket, is in the low range compared to the rest of the league. Add that to the fact that we only shoot like 38% from mid-range, and you see why we lose games offensively. These are the EXACT reasons why we got Horford and Law. Horford should improve our efficiency from 15 feet and in, while Law can knock down the mid-range jumper and get to the hole. Smoove must make a commitment to take the ball inside, especially when his jumper isn't falling. And Marvin must also become a better scorer within that 15 foot range. If this happens, we're playoff bound. If it doesn't, the rookies will have to step up BIG right away.

Quote: I'll start: Law = 10 ppg, 5.8 apg, 2.3 rpg. 44% FG JJ = 21.4 ppg, 5.5 rpg, 3.1 apg. 51% FG Josh Smith = 18.9 ppg, 8.9 rpg, 2.6 apg. 47% FG Horford = 7.8 ppg, 6.7 rpg, 1.0 apg. 44% FG Shelden = 12.2 ppg, 10.1 rpg, 1.2 apg. 48% FG Marvin = 10.1 ppg, 5.4 rpg, 2.1 apg. 43% FG Zaza = 9.8 ppg, 6.0 rpg, 2.7 apg. 43% FG Chillz = 10.1 ppg, 5.9 rpg, 2.9 apg 46% FG Speedy = 6.5 ppg, 1.6 rpg, 6.6 apg, 44% FG Solo = 2.3 ppg, 3.4 rpg, 0.7 apg, 42%FG The Hawks better be the best defensive team in the league, if these are your projections. If not, this team won't win more than 30 games. Chill at 46%? Wow . . that's a huge dropoff for him. Chill is a Ruben Patterson type of player, that should always be around the 50% mark, because he tries to get to the hole often. Horford at 44%? That would be a COMPLETE disaster. Marvin shooting 43% and averaging just 10 points would be an even BIGGER DISASTER. ZaZa at 43%? Good lord. Yeah . . you might want to add the numbers for Lue and Salim. If they're not in your grand scheme of things, we're definitely in trouble. Diesel's projected stats = 24 wins for the Hawks.

Danny Manning Couldn't stand him at Kansas . . couldn't stand Kansas in general. Thought he was vastly overrated as a pro. Absolutely DESPISED the Nique - Manning trade. Forced, literally FORCED to root for that cat when he came to ATL. After 3 weeks here, I knew that we'd f----ed up by obtaining this guy. Then he BAILS on us at the end of the season? DANNY ((( BLEEPING ))) MANNING.

OFF TOPIC . . to AHF: I'm about to put my VHS recording of the 1998 Final Four on Ebay. ( Still can't believe Jamison and the boys from UNC lost to Utah in the semis that year ) I'm also thinking about putting the 1998 National Title game between UK and UTAH on there as well. As a UK fan, how much do you think I could get for either tape? I've never used Ebay before, and is curious how much a collector's item like that could bring me.

Quote: Vdunkndunk has said it all. I can't believe yall can actually WATCH games and think Smoove should still play the 3 the majority of the minutes. He should be a 4, just like Marion should be a 4. He should be a 4, just like AK-47 should be a 4 (Utah moving him to the 3-spot really hurt his game last season). I actually really like the forward tandem of Marvin and Smoove. I think the board will as well by the end of this season. Kirilenko's eFG% for the past 3 years: 04 - 05: 42.0% ( jumpers ) - 64.4% ( inside scoring ) 05 - 06: 35.3% ( jumpers ) - 62.1% ( inside scoring ) 06 - 07: 29.9% ( jumpers ) - 68.6% ( inside scoring ) Smoove's eFG% for the past 3 years: 04 - 05: 27.7% ( jumpers ) - 62.9% ( inside scoring ) 05 - 06: 36.3% ( jumpers ) - 58.5% ( inside scoring ) 06 - 07: 31.6% ( jumpers ) - 61.0% ( inside scoring ) If there's a player to compare Smoove to, it's AK-47. Almost the same type of game. I think Smoove surpassed him this year . . when he was able to play the 4 at lot more than he did the 3. In the PHX - ATL game in Atlanta in February, former Suns player and current Suns commentator, Eddie Johnson, said two things in that broadcast that stood out to me. ( Eddie and Smitty did a switch at the beginning of the 2nd quarter of that game. Smitty went to do color for the Phoenix FOX broadcast, while Eddie did color for the Hawks. They each stayed on the other side until the 2nd mandatory TV timeout in the 2nd quarter ) From Eddie: 1) "I know people talk about Chris Paul and the fact that Atlanta needed a PG, but this kid ( Marvin ) just might be the better player when it's all said and done." 2) Josh Smith reminds me a lot of Lamar Odom, a guy who can do it all. He's special. Let's focus on the 2nd statement. When you talk about Lamar Odom, you're talking about a guy who is a player who can be a tremendous offensive weapon. He can handle the ball like a guard, and post people up if need be. If this is who Smoove aspires to be, then so be it. I'll gladly accept that. But Lamar's problem is the same thing that we wish Smoove would do . . stop settling for jumpers and attack the paint more often. Lamar's eFG last year on his jumpers were 39.6%. Inside, he scored at a 64.7% clip. The problem, is that 55% of his shots last year were jumpers. That's a BIG PROBLEM for a Laker team void of talent ouside of he and Kobe. You just can't have Lamar settling for jumpers like that, when, like Smoove when he plays the 4, he has the ability to take any man 6 - 9 or taller off the dribble and get to the hole. He's either going to score, or get fouled most of the time. Play Lamar at the 3, and he can be a point forward. But he'll also settle for long jumpers. This is why every team Lamar has played on, has eventually played him at the 4. It keeps him somewhat aggressive on the offensive end, and on the boards. Put either of these guys at the 3 for extended periods, and their effectiveness is dimished. Marvin is, and will always be, a better player at the 3. Let Smoove play the hybrid role, but let him play it from the 4 spot to keep him aggressive.

Quote: Josh is jus doing what any tweener should do and that is work on your entire a game. The key to being a successful tweener in the league is finding what position puts you at an advantage offensively. Josh advantage is clearly at the 4 which allows him to get defensive rebounds, initiate the fast break with his dribble and successfully beat other 4s on the break for dunks and layups. Analize the game squawkers and you will see that this is Joshes biggest asset!!! Basically this is his go to move besides catching alleys, put backs and spot up shooting. But please stop wit the 3 talk squawkers!!! Josh is a tweener 4/3. The minutes he plays at the 3 should only be in spots because he is not that quick and he doesn't have any effective off the dribble moves. However, he is able to beat 4's with his limited dribble drive moves because he is quicker than most 4's. Anybody that watches the game knows that when Josh is at the 3 you should expect alot of pull up jumpers!!!!! I posted this 3 or 4 times last season. JOSH PLAYS BETTER AT HIS NATURAL WEIGHT OF 235!!! At the beginning of last year when he was bigger his game suffered tremendously because he doesn't have the bounce. but I seem to be the only one that notice that amongst all you non game watchers/boxscore readers!!!!! ''Box Score Readers'' find the stat that shows the number of dunks Josh had in the first half of the season compared to the second half. I bet that he had more dunks in the second half of the season when he was down to his natural 235 playing weight. P.S. IF YOU DON'T HAVE LEAGUE PASS OR GO TO THE GAMES IN PERSON SHUT UP TALKING BOUT THE HAWKS..CAUSE YOU'RE NOT A HAWKS FAN!!!!!!! LAST BUT NOT LEAST THE EAST IS MUCH STRONGER BUT WE MAKING THE PLAYOFFS THIS YEAR!!!!! WATCH!!!! GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!! Thanks Don. You just saved me a lot of typing. But I'm sure as I continue to read this thread, that I'll have to come at people with FACTS about Smoove. Don . . it should be REQUIRED amongst all Hawksquawk members, that they RECORD EACH AND EVERY HAWKS GAME THEY CAN NEXT SEASON!! I say this because it's obvious that people's eyes are fooling them. Smoove is about 75% less aggressive of a player, when he plays the 3, compared to when he plays the 4.

Quote: Obviously if he can't get anything to fall, then yes, it would be a better idea to try and create contact. And that would be my only issue with JJ. If the shot isn't falling, take it to the hole and then try to get to the line. If anything, JJ needs to up that FT% to around 80% - 85%. It's kind of unusual to see a guy who can shoot so well from the field and from 3-point range, to be an "average" FT shooter on the NBA level. ( FTA = Free Throw Attempts per game . . . FTP = Free Throw Percentage ) Dirk: ( 7.1 FTA . . 90% FTP ) Allen: ( 5.6 FTA . . 90% FTP ) Kobe: ( 10 FTA . . 87% FTP ) Gordon: ( 5.4 FTA . . 86% FTP ) T-Mac: ( 8.6 FTA . . 86% FTP ) Hamilton: 5.4 FTA . . 86% FTP ) Ginoboli: 5 FTA . . 86% FTP ) Roy: ( 4.2 FTA . . 84% FTP ) Redd: ( 7.8 FTA . . 83% FTP ) Iggy: ( 7.3 FTA . . 82% FTP ) Carmelo: ( 8.7 FTA . . 81% FTP ) Wade: ( 10.5 FTA . . 81% FTP ) Carter: ( 7 FTA . . . 80% FTP ) Pierce: ( 8.6 FTA . . 80% FTP ) Iverson: ( 9.4 FTA . . 80% FTP ) JJ: ( 5.5 FTA . . 75% FTP ) Lebron: ( 9 FTA . . 70% FTP ) I think this is more of an issue for JJ, than him getting to the line more. When he does get to the line, he needs to knock the shots down. I'd love to see him around 82%, but his career history says that he may be around the 75 - 78% FT mark for his whole career. So maybe he is better off shooting the floater in the lane, than getting to the line more. JJ's point per shot number was 1.25 last year. That number would be higher if he hit his free throws at a higher level. Most of the guys on this list have a point per shot number above 1.3. Dirk sits at a ridiculous 1.43. And when you look at Lebron from the FT line, just think what he could do, if he raised his FT% to over 80%. When it comes to actual FG%, only Dirk, Lebron, and Carmelo shoot better than JJ though. Top 5 in FG% amongst this group: Dirk: 50.2% Melo: 47.6% Lebron 47.6% JJ: 47.1% Ginoboli & Hamilton: 46.8% When it comes to adjusted FG% ( ^ AFG%: Adjusted FG Percentage = [(PTS - FTM)/FGA]/2 ) . . . JJ's 52.3% is better than everybody on this list except Dirk and Ginoboli. To show you how good Steve Nash is, here are his numbers, who are better than everybody. 61.3 ADJFG% 1.45 ppshot

. . . for banning Walter for 2 weeks. As a former moderator on the ESPN Hawks boards during the 05 - 06 season, I kind of know what it is like to try to maintain some sort of civil order on a message board. Of course, ESPN back in those days was much worse than Hawksquawk is now. For those of you who question the Walter ban, let me ask you this: If Chillz shouldn't ban a guy for calling him an a-hole, when should a moderator exert his "power"? ( for the record, he called him an a-hole twice in the same post, not once. And the second time he called him one, he was definitely looking to get a rise out of him. ) Sure, Walter brings tangible arguments to the table and can passionately defend his point, even if the majority of the board thinks he's dead wrong on certain issues. He's the type of guy you would want on your side, if you were on a debate team in high school or college. But we all on here know that when you DON'T agree with him, he goes into attack mode. And he doesn't attack by stating additional facts to back up his initial claim, he attacks by calling people names, like we're in high school at a lunch table. So a poster only has two choices 1) ignore the attack . . or 2) respond to the attack, most of the time, with more viciousness. That's when threads get out of control. At ESPN, I had to deal with not only a bunch of kids and adults spamming the board, I also had to deal with people who's sole purpose in life was to say something negative about the Hawks, without any possibility of tangible discussion. Most of the time, I deleted their posts. When they'd keep doing it, I had to ban them. Kind of like this current post on there right now: Your franchise is such a joke. Why do you guys invest the time and money to support such losers? I would rather watch a cow p00p then go to a Hawks game. Please spare me about your rookie picks. You have been lottery bound for how long and apparently NONE of them have ever worked out for you. What a ridiculous team. With a post like that, I would just delete it, and move on. If the guy came back, and posted something else similar to that, plus complained about his original post being erased, I might ban him for 24 hours, just to let him know that ish like that wouldn't be tolerated. Sometimes, that's the only way you can get people's attention . . by flat out banning them. Bottom line is that you just can't go around disrespecting people all the time when they don't agree with you, especially not a board moderator. If we're not all mature enough to argue our points, without personal attacks being waged against people, then you need to be dealt with . . one way or the other. Here's the test all of you should use. Don't type anything on this board that you wouldn't have the guts to say to people face to face. The internet protects people, because you can type just about anything you want without reprocussions. LOL . . that's why mods are created . . to keep boards from turning into the Wild, Wild, West. It's like a fan in the stands who think he has the right to say whatever he wants to at a game, just because he paid good money to see the game. No you can't say what you want. If the people around you have a problem with how you are acting, you can and will be dealt with by arena security. I don't know how many basketball and football games I've gone to, when I see and hear fans constant cursing at players, coaches, and refs . . then have to see the faces of parents at that same game in that same section, with their 8 - 12 year old kid beside them. I personally don't have a problem with Walter. I see right through the cat most of the time. He's a great debater and is great at pushing people's buttons. But as far as talking about basketball go, and the nuances of the game, he hardly speaks on those topics. And he rarely posts on topics that he doesn't start. So I see right through him. Maybe by next week, he'll be a better poster, that talks more about basketball/Atlanta Hawk issues, than his own personal agendas against coaches and/or players.

I'll say we'll only get one. In year's past, the bad teams get paired up against the good teams on national TV . . or against a team that has some sort of connection with each other. Unfortunately, we might get put on NBATV if we do get a "national" game, that most of the nation can't see, because they don't have NBATV. We DEFINITELY won't get an ABC afternoon game. Here are my guesses. If we're on TNT: - Atlanta @ Phoenix ( obvious connection ) - Boston @ Atlanta ( JJ's old team + Boston should get a ton of National TV games now ) - Miami @ Atlanta ( Shaq + D-Wade is a box office draw ) On ESPN/ESPN2: - Atlanta @ Orlando ( Young up and coming teams in the same division with young star talent ) - Chicago @ Atlanta ( Horford vs Noah ) - Atlanta @ Cleveland ( because Cleveland will get about 25 - 30 national TV games )

But the core that you're talking about, only consist of about 2 - 3 players at best. JJ - Smoove - Marvin could be the core of this team, but we'd still have to trade or bring in other guys to put us over the hump. Chicago: Jordan - Pippen - Grant were the core of the 3 early championship teams. That early team definitely built their dynasty through the draft, adding complimentary players like BJ Armstrong, Will Perdue, and Stacey King. Jordan - Pippen - Rodman were the core of the last 3 titles. But of those guys, only Jordan, Pippen, Jason Caffey and Toni Kukoc were guys who were originally drafted by the Bulls. Those last 3 titles were a team full of mercenaries. ( Ron Harper, Rodman, Steve Kerr, Luc Longley, Randy Brown, Scott Burrell, Bill Wennington, etc ) The same goes with the Laker teams that won the 3 straight titles in 200 - 02. Kobe, AC Green and Fisher were the only guys acquired through the draft, that got major playing time. The other guys? Mercenaries ( Shaq, Glen Rice, Rick Fox, Robert Horry, Ron Harper ( again ), Brian Shaw, etc ). The following year they add Horace Grant and JR "illegal cellphone" Rider to the merc list. Then it was Samaki Walker, Lindsey Hunter, and the 90s version of Joe Johnson ( Mitch Richmond ), to the mix. Diesel says it correctly. The draft is usually where you get that impact/gamebreaker type of player. But championships are usually built and won by the guys you can bring in via free agency and trades. This is also why the Hawks should NEVER do most of the idiotic trades posted on Hawksquawk. When you trade away young talent, you do EXACTLY how Boston did it. You trade it away to bring in STAR talent. Not another role player to round out a roster. You never trade a Childress or a Marvin for some of the mediocre players posted on this site over the years ( Ridnour, Magloire, Steve Blake, Petro, etc ). You always trade guys like that in some sort of package deal to bring a star player to your team, that may not have had the right people around him to get it done with his old team.

. . . the Hawks should do ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in regards to giving Smoove a contract extension this summer. I say this for two reasons. 1) This guy has only played at a high level for about two months out of his entire career. I know he has a ton of fans here, and I'm one of them. But I'm also cautious about giving a frontline guy who hasn't even shot over 46% FG at any point in his career, a big time deal. He needs to be a much more consistent offensive player to warrant the type of money that people are talking about signing him for. 5 years - 50 million would be the absolute MAX I'd give him right now. 2) Motivation. Don't give him his money now. Let the lack of a contract be his motivation to prove that he's a big time player worthy of big time money. How many guys in this league have we seen get their money, only to level off or even decline as a player? Or how many completely overpaid shotblockers do we have in this league? If Josh wants big time money, let him prove it on the floor with stellar and consistent play. ************** If Smoove plays well, the marketplace will set his price. Unlike the Suns, the Hawks can easily position themselves to match any offer for Smoove, because of the commodity that most of you overlook . . . the expiring contracts. As it stands right now, if the Hawks just let those contracts expire without picking up anybody, our team salary is going to be somewhere around 40 million going into the summmer of 2008, before deciding what to do with Smoove or Childress. That's 40 million amongst these 8 players: Hawks 08 - 09 salaries ( if Hoopshype.com is right ): - JJ ( 14.2 million ) - Speedy ( 5.8 ) - Marvin ( 5.6 ) - ZaZa ( 4.0 ) - Al ( 4.0 ) - Shelden ( 3.4 ) - Acie ( 2.1 ) - Solomon ( 0.8 ) This number could possibly be lower, depending on if the Hawks feel that Marvin and Shelden are also expendible, and decline to pick up the team option on them. That's possibly another 9 million that could come off the books in the summer of 2008. If Smoove proves that he's a MAX player, and Marvin continues to improve, Chill is gone. If Smoove levels off where he is right now, there's a possibility that we can resign both of those guys, and still be under the cap . . which I think may be as high as 58 - 59 million for the 08 - 09 season. That's a solid 18 - 19 million to work with to possibly resign Smoove and Chill, and add other players to the roster if necessary. That's more than enough money to keep this team together, plus add a cheap vet or two. The fact that we don't have to add a 1st round pick in 2008, helps this situation tremendously. If the core of this team plays well in 2007 - 08, we can easily keep them together in 08 - 09. So if I'm the Hawks, I'm not doing anything rash at this point. That could all chance by the time the trade deadline comes, especially with the expiring contracts. But something tells me that the Hawks aren't going to do a thing with those guys, and just let Lue, AJ, Lo, and Salim fall off the books . . with them possibly re-signing Salim or Lue on the cheap if possible. Potential Hawks salaries in 08 - 09: - JJ ( 14.2 million ) - Smoove ( 11 million ) - Childress ( 6 million ) - Speedy ( 5.8 ) - Marvin ( 5.6 ) - ZaZa ( 4.0 ) - Al ( 4.0 ) - Shelden ( 3.4 ) - Acie ( 2.1 ) - Solomon ( 0.8 ) So with the remaining money, you add a veteran shooter ( possibly re-signing Salim, or a vet SG/SF ), and maybe a defender. Spots 12 - 14 will be filled with scrub talent. So yes . . let Smoove prove that he's a big time player, and not just a good player late in the season when the season is already over.

You can tell it's the summer. Even Walter is running out of new material. I think it's time for Hawks fans to go hibernate for a couple of weeks or maybe until Labor Day. Time away from this site may do some of you some good. As for me, it's all about the Bengals now. (( switching to football mode ))

. . placed more on what they read on the draftexpress.com and NBAdraft.net profiles, than Acie's actual game performances. They erroneously assumed that because Acie took over games and was a big time scorer at the end of games, that he was some shoot-first type of PG. I even saw some guy on here say that Acie reminded him of Randolph Childress. LOL @ that. The ONLY comparison, is that both Childress and Law were big time at the end of games. But Randolph's game was nothing like Acie's. The difference between Acie and Randolph? Acie: - 19.2% of shots were 3-pointers ( 83 out of 432 ) Randolph: - 58.6% of shots were 3-pointers ( 245 out of 418 ) When you see a disparity in 3-point shots like that coming from your point guard, his game is NOT going to translate to the next level. That tells you that this guy cannot get to the rim, or would much rather settle for long jumpers. This also tells you that Randolph played in a system that called for him to be taking a lot of 3's, instead of developing his skills as a slashing offensive PG on the next level. On the NBA level, that's a recipe for disaster, because those guys don't properly learn how to create for others, once they get into the lane. At the very least, you want your PG to have the ability to get to the hole, and make the correct decision to either shoot or pass. But you don't want your college PG taking 3-pointers more than 50% of the time. For comparison sake, Salim Stoudamire in his senior year at Arizona, took 3-pointers 57% of the time. That's why Salim would rather settle for those long jumpers, even if he's out of control, rather than to take the ball to the hole. So Randolph Childress is much closer to what Salim Stoudamire was, than he was to Acie Law IV. Anybody who actually WATCHED Acie play for that last 2 seasons, knew that the combo-guard/shoot-first PG was a bunch of BS. But a lot of Hawksquawk hadn't watched more than 2 games of Acie, and that's where the problem with evaulating him began. Most of you guys just trusted what you saw other writers write about Acie, instead of your own eyes. Acie did exactly what I expected him to do in summer league. Show that he can run a team, score the basketball, and play decent defense. I was on the "bandwagon" ever since those two Texas games back in February. Even when mock drafts had him in the 20s, I was pushing for him to be taken with that Indy pick, if we got lucky enough to get it. RMR stats for Acie: 13.6 ppg 6.0 assists ( incredible, seeing that most of the team shot under 50% FG and shot 22% 3FG as a team ) 2.4 rebs 2.8 turnovers ( over 2 to 1 assist/TO ratio ) 44% FG ( probably about what he'll shoot in the NBA next year. 20% 3FG ( 1 - 5 . . . I bet that people expected him to take more than 5 threes in 5 games. I expect him to be a 33 - 36% 3FG shooter next season. He's a mid-range shooter, not a 3-point marksman. But he can knock down open shots, and he should see a lot of them playing next to JJ ) 82% FT ( 23 - 28 ) Nice to see that no one feels "worse" about Acie, according to that poll . . lol. Hawksquawk, please start watching games, and not the internet. For those of you who truly know basketball, trust what your eyes and mind tell you about a player when you see him play. And do your research to see what kind of player he can potentially be. You guys did that with Yi, but didn't do it with Acie. But then again . . most of you got duped by the Yi highlights.

Only chance is to see if the Spurs are doing something. I wouldn't count on the Hawks to be covering this. LOL . . you'd think with the great technology that we all have, that the people at the RMR would just set up a dang video camera, set it on a wide view, and just let people see them run up and down the court, without commentary. Or ish . . maybe set up 4 cameras at four different places, and let people on the net click on which camera they want to view at a particuar time. That's easy to set up, without costing a lot. Hell, most of our high school games on local TV were shown like that. It'll just be a tape of us running up and down the court. That's too much to ask though. After all . . it's just summer league. And I think only fans of losing teams care about summer league.

I know the Jazz are broadcasting all of their games, but are they broadcastin ALL of the RMR games? I think people may be disappointed in about 4 minutes, if they're looking to listen to the game. I hope I'm wrong.

To me, Summer league is more important than the draft combine measurements, because you get to see the basketball skills that each player brings to the table. A lot of people put a lot of stock in the measurements, when they should actually be looking at how a guy plays, in realtion to his size. Size don't mean jack, if you can't play. Here are some things to look for or keep in mind, when viewing and evaulating talent in summer league: 1) Summer Leagues usually favor guys who are great one on one/individual players. The guys who are great scorers off the dribble, or beasts in the low post, tend to look very good in Summer League. Teams aren't trying to double or triple-team guys to take the ball out of their hands, so a good offensive player will usually have the advantage. It's no surprise that g 2) Summer league officiating is usually HORRIBLE It's a little better than the self-fouls we all call during pick-up games . . but not much better. The fact that some of these guys get 15 - 20 FTAs during a summer league game, should tell you all you need to know about the refs. 3) Identify what a particular player is known for doing, and see if he can do it in summer league. If he has a big problem doing what he's known for, there might be a problem And this goes across the board. If a guy is a playmaker, he should still be able to be a playmaker in summer league. I've already discusses scorers. Shot blockers, rebounders, spot-up shooters, etc should still be able to do that in summer league. A player's particular strength should definitely show up in summer league. And if it doesn't, that may be an indication that he may not be a good as people think he is. ( and that was a big reason for the increase of Shelden hate last year, because he started out very slow in summer league. He picked up his play at the end of the week, but we saw indications that he may not be the shot blocking or defensive force in the NBA, that he was in college. And that pretty much proved to be true, although he proved that he could still rebound very effectively on the NBA level. ) 4) Bad summer league play is more damaging, than good summer league play is more uplifting. When a player has a good summer league showing, especially in areas that he's known for, it should be expected of him. Like I said before, good summer league players are usually good individual players. But a player that just can't seem to make his game work in summer league, tends to struggle once the season starts. When a player plays bad, it usually means that he's more of a "system" type player, than a player who can get things done on an individual level. Not to keep picking on the kid like the rest of Hawksquawk has over the past week, but since I haven't posted in about 10 days, I might as well give my opinion on Yi and his summer league play. I think there are tremendous red flags about that kid. From his almost clueless effort on defense, to the fact that even though he has a height advantage over most of the people who guarded him, he struggled mightily with his shot. And like Exodus correctly pointed out, Yi doesn't seem to be able to create his own offense off the dribble on a consistent basis. For Yi, Summer league probably meant the most to him, out of any player, because he's looking to be traded from Milwaukee. If he'd played great, he'd have a lot of people coming after him right now. But because he shot the ball horribly ( 25.5% FG . . Yikes ), it's probably turned some people off of him. Having said that, this kid could still be decent ( although not anywhere close to a star player ). Yi may very well be a guy that needs to be in a sound NBA 1/2 court offense, that can maximize his abilities as a player on offense. Initially, he'll be nothing more than a spot-up shooter that can knock down open shots when passed to him ( sounds like a Hawk that we all know and love . . or hate ). But it's going to take years for this guy to learn how to create his own offense on the NBA level, if he ever learns how to. At best, Yi might end up being the Chinese version of Sam Perkins. Sam wasn't a bad player by any stretch of the imagination. He could knock down open perimeter shots, and he could rebound. Or he could be the Chinese version of Matt Bullard, a guy that strictly shot open perimeter jumpers, because of his inability to create off the dribble or post up people. In other words, Yi will probably not be a star. He'll probably be a complimentary player. It's up to him whether he'll be a good complimentary player, or a bad one. 5) When it is all said and done, Summer league is merely an evaulation tool for teams to look at regarding players, and how to most effectively use them if that particular player makes a team. It usually doesn't make or break a player. Summer league highlights strengths, and exposes weaknesses. With Shelden, that's exactly what it did last year. Yes, he could rebound, but he had trouble with the athleticism of some of the better frontcourt guys he was matched up against. The same goes for Salim. Yes, he can shoot, and summer league did nothing to dispell that fact. But it also proved that he couldn't effectively run a team and get other people involved. Meanwhile, a guy like Patrick O'Bryant still looks like garbage offensively, even though he has all of the physical tools. He's at least blocking shots though, so even he is showcasing what he does best. So to say that summer league is meaningless, is false. I used to believe that, until I watched some of those tape-delayed games last year. Now I see why teams play them and why they are so important. For all of you ex-basketball players that possibly got to play some AAU ball, that is what summer league reminds me of. It's rag-tag, inconsistent play, with a couple of set offensive and defensive plays mixed in. But the guys with great individual talent seem to always shine through. These guys don't necessarily make the best team players, but it does show that they can play. As for some of the current players in summer league: - Louis Williams: Not suprised to see this guy balling in Summer league. He's always been compared to Iverson, and he's the type of quick guard that won't be stopped in summer league. He's also the type that will struggle a little in the NBA. Teams will neutralize him and force him to become a more well rounded player, instead of a one-dimensional scorer. Having said that, Philly fans have to be pleased with him. - Marco Bellini: Not surprised to see him balling either. He's big and athletic enough to hold his own in the NBA, and definitely talented enough to get his shot off any time he wants in summer league. - Jason Maxiell: Charles Barkley was on JT the Brick's FOX sports radio show the other night. One of the things he talked about, was how most NBA GM's and scouts have no idea how to evaulate talent. One of the guys he mentioned was Milsap. He flat out said that there's no way that he should've been a 2nd round pick. The other guy was Jason Maxiell. Maxiell is a victim of the draft measurements. He's only 6-7 . . 245 lbs. But people routinely forget that he played center while at U. of Cincinnati. That fact alone should tell people that this guy knows how to score around the basket and get position for rebounds, even with his diminished height. So it's not surprising to see him excelling during summer legue either.

I agree jez. When I saw that he got 6 million per, I had to laugh. I mean, that's more than MLE money for a one-dimensional player that can easily be taken out of a game by a good defensive SF. Toronto acts like Kapono is the missing piece to them winning a title or something. I guess that means the Hawks will go after Mo Pete. Note to billy: Please don't offer Mo Pete more than 3 million, if you do.

LOL . . I did it again. I just hate to see this site get overly hyped up over mediocre players. It's bad enough that people campaign for Ridnour and Przybilla. We don't need a Biendrins campaign started here too. (( holding up 3 fingers )) I promise not to post on this thread again.

That guy is NOT that good. Good lord. He might be the WORST shooting center in the entire league. He did improve his FT shooting by leaps and bounds. He went from a 31% FT shooter . . to a 52% FT shooter. If he doesn't score off of put backs, lay-ups, or dunks, he isn't scoring. It's not like we can throw this guy the ball in the post, and look for him to score. LOL . . he can't do it. He's a defensive presence in the paint, but it's not like he shuts people down. Alonzo Mourning ( without Shaq ) had 19 points, 8 rebounds, and 5 blocks against G. State back in January. Biendrins was a non factor with 4 points and 6 rebounds. And he did nothing to stop a center with decent low post moves in Mourning. Just because a guy plays great against ZaZa and Lorenzen, doesn't mean that he's a great player. Biendrins couldn't keep Okur from doing what he wanted to do in the playoffs, that's for sure. It should be mandatory for everybody on Hawksquawk to order NBA League Pass next season at watch at least 5 games of EVERY team in the league. If you do that, you wouldn't have unrealistic and inflated opinions of players. Shelden/Chill for Biendrins? Come on. Shelden by himself, may be better than Biendrins, if they got the same amount of minutes.

Matter of fact . . why did I even take the 90 seconds to respond to this thread. This has to be filed as the "dumbest trade of the year". I shoud've just ignored it.