TheNorthCydeRises

Quote: He also didn't play PG primarily for Portland because Roy also spent good minutes there. Not to mention that outside of Roy and Randolph (and Jack) Portland was not much of an offensive team last year. His numbers would go up if he was the primary point guard and given 40 minutes a game with the talent we have around him. FWIW Jack is also one of the best defensive PGs in the league. We haven't had defense at PG since Mookie. This is false. Roy played the point maybe 15% of the time that he was on the floor. Whenever Jack and Roy were on the floor together, Jack ALWAYS played the point. Roy is a 2-guard, that has the ability to be a lead guard, much like JJ does. In the 1/2 court offense, the ball usually ends up in Roy's or Zebo's hands, so that they can take the shot or find the open mand when the shot clock is running down. Roy is a very good facilitator in the 1/2 court set, much like JJ, Vince Carter, D-Wade, and T-Mac are. But he doesn't play the point, and he's not guarding PGs. With the lack of quality PGs in this league, you wonder why Portland would give up such a "valuable" commodity. Give up Jack just to draft Critt? Think about that. Does this even sound right?

Quote: Portland played Jack at the 2 a lot if I am not mistaken. Plus Portland didn't have a lot of scoring. That would account somewhat for his low assist totals. That's flat out false. Jack almost exclusively played the 1 last year. He played a lot with Roy. He also played some with Dixon, when he was with the Blazers. Dixon almost always played the 2, with Jack playing the 1. Jack almsot NEVER played alongside Rodriguez or Dickau. Quote: The thing i like about Jack is that he takes it to the basket and can finish/get to the line. We are too much of a jump shooting team at times. And he is a good foul shooter. He didn't take it to the basket nearly enough for this to be a factor in signing him, more less trading the #11 for him. He only shot 3.5 FTA per game in 33+ minutes of playing time. In comparison, Ty Lue shot 2.9 FTA per game in roughly 27 minutes of PT. When you stretch that out per 48 minutes, Lue goes to the line 5.3 times per game . . Jack goes 5.1 times per game. I hope this deductive reasoning is false. I'd much rather have Acie Law here, or even Conley, than Jack. And if Jack were so good, why would Portland give him up for the #11 pick in the draft? They must know that Jack probably isn't going to get much better than he is right now. If Jack were in this draft, there's NO WAY he'd be considered at #11. No way.

And this is what kind of scares me for Critt. Conley, I think, will be OK. Critt is the guy that I'm worried about.

That's kind of the point of the list. Very few young guards even attempt to come into the league, let alone, be successful in it.

This is a historical look at young PGs entering the NBA since 1990, and how they did. I'll only focus on 1st round picks in the top 15. I will give Tony Parker's stats or any other young PG who excelled in the NBA as a late 1st rounder. I'll give you their age when their first entered college or the NBA, their college stats in the last year they played in college . . their 1st year stats as a pro . . and their best year as a pro. For the HS kids, we'll have to start with their 1st year in the league. Shawn Livingston ( 19 . . straight from high school ) - Rookie season ( NBA 2004 . . #4 pick ): 27.1 minutes ( played 30 games ) 7.4 ppg 5.0 apg 3.0 rpb 1.1 stls 2.5 TOs 41% FG 74% FT 0% 3FG ( only took 2 all year ) - Best season ( 06 - 07 ) 29.8 minutes ( played in 54 games, started 31 ) 9.3 ppg 5.1 apg 3.4 rbg 1.1 stls 2.0 TOs 46% FG 71% FT 31% 3FG ( 5 - 13 ) Sebastian Telfair ( 19 . . straight out of high school ) - Rookie season ( NBA 2004 . . #13 pick ) 19.6 minutes ( played in 68 games, started 26 ) 6.8 ppg 3.3 apg 1.5 rbg 0.5 stls 1.84 TOs 39% FG 79% FT 25% 3FG - Best season ( 05 - 06 ) 24.1 minutes ( played in 68 games, started 30 ) 9.5 ppg 3.6 apg 1.8 rbg 1.0 stls 1.7 TOs 39% FG 74% FT 35% 3FG Dajuan Wagner ( 19 . . @ the U. of Memphis ) . . yes, I know he's not a PG, but he'd have to play the point on the NBA level to stay in the league, being only 6-2. - Freshman year @ Memphis ( 2001 - 02 ) 21.2 ppg 3.6 apg 2.5 rebs 1.2 stls 41% FG 72% FT 32% 3FG - Rookie NBA season ( 2002 . . #6 pick ) 29.5 minutes ( played in 47 games, started 24 ) 13.4 ppg 2.8 apg 1.7 rpg 0.8 stls 1.8 TOs 37% FG 80% FT 31% 3FG ( rookie year was also his best year ) Tony Parker - ( 19 when he entered the NBA ) - Rookie season ( 2001 - 02 . . #28 pick ) 29.4 minutes ( played in 77 games, started 72 ) 9.2 ppg 4.3 apg 2.6 rbg 1.2 stls 2.0 TOs 42% FG 68% FT 32% 3FG - Best season ( 05 - 06 ) 33.9 minutes ( played and started in 80 games ) 18.9 ppg 5.8 apg 3.3 rpg 1.0 stls 3.11 TOs 55% FG ( which is incredible for a guard, has to be one of the highest FG% for a guard in NBA history ) 71% FT 30% 3FG Jamal Crawford - ( 19 @ the U of Michigan . . and yes, he did play PG at Michigan. - Freshman year @ Michigan ( 1999 - 2000 ) 16.6 ppg 4.5 apg 2.8 rpg 1.1 stls 41% FG 78% FT 33% 3FG - rookie year in NBA ( 2000 - 01 ) 17.2 minutes ( played in 61 games, started 8 ) 4.6 ppg 2.3 apg 1.5 rpg 0.7 stls 1.4 TOS 35% FG 79% FT 35% 3FG - Best season ( 06 - 07 ) 37.3 minutes ( played in 59 games, started 36 ) 17.6 ppg 4.4 apg 3.2 rpg 1.0 stls 2.8 TOS 40% FG 84% FT 32% 3FG Stephon Marbury - 18 @ Georgia Tech - Freshman year @ Tech ( 95 - 96 ) 18.9 ppg 4.5 apg 3.1 rpg 1.8 stls 46% FG 74% FT 37% 3FG - Rookie year in NBA ( 96 - 97 . . #4 pick ) 34.7 minutes ( played in 67 games, started 64 ) 15.8 ppg 7.8 apg 2.7 rpg 1.0 stls 3.1 TOs 41% FG 73% FT 35% 3FG - Best season ( 98 - 99 ) 38.7 minutes ( played and started in 80 games ) 21.3 ppg 8.9 apg 2.9 rpg 1.2 stls 3.4 TOs 43% FG 80% FT 34% 3FG Use this information however you want.

I posted this on the ESPN board a few days ago. For those of you who have boycotted that site, I'll re-post it here: It's been my opinion that many people who don't think Acie can play the point, truly haven't watched him play. He was A&M's best playmaker and best scoring option last year. Because of that, people want to call him a "combo-guard", because he had to take on a lot of the scoring burden. Any guy that puts up 21 points and 15 assists against a team like Texas, isn't a "combo guard". Here are your top 10 assist guys in the NBA, during the regular season: Nash - 11.6 Deron - 9.3 Kidd - 9.2 Paul - 8.9 B. Davis - 8.1 T.J. Ford - 7.9 A. Miller - 7.8 Iverson - 7.2 Billups - 7.2 Felton - 7.0 Here are your top 10 PGs, in regards to field goal attempts per game: Arenas - 20.9 B. Davis - 16.3 Mo Williams - 15.4 Parker - 14.2 Bibby - 14.2 Barbosa - 13.9 Paul - 13.6 D. Williams - 13.5 Marbury - 12.9 Nash - 12.8 Now, let's look at something else. Here are the shot attempts per game, their shot attempts rank on their perspective team, and the FG% for those top 10 guys who led the league in assists. Nash - 12.8 FGA . . ( 4th in # of shots per game ) - 53% FG Deron - 13.5 FGA . . ( 2nd ) - 46% FG Kidd - 11.3 FGA . . ( 4th ) - 41% FG Paul - 13.6 FGA . . ( 3rd ) - 44% FG B. Davis - 16.3 FGA . . ( 1st ) - 44% FG T.J. Ford - 12.0 FGA . . ( 2nd ) - 44% FG A. Miller - 11.6 FGA ( with Philly only ) . . ( 3rd ) - 46% FG Iverson - 18.9 FGA ( with Denver only ) . . ( 2nd ) - 45% FG Billups - 11.6 FGA . . ( 3rd ) . . 43% FG Felton - 13.1 FGA . . ( 2nd ) . . 38% FG I post these three sets of numbers, to kind of dispell an urban myth about PGs on this board. A pass-first PG is NOT what the Hawks need. We need a guy who can do BOTH pass and shoot. A gunner at the point, or a pass-first guy, doesn't guarantee you anything. But if you have a guy who can do BOTH, that's truly an asset to have. It is important in this league to have a PG that can set up people, but also have the ability to take a game over if need be. The only "true" pass-first PGs on this top 10 list, are the 2 guys that you would suspect to be on there . . Nash and Kidd. But guys like Deron, T.J. Ford, and Felton . . guys that many believe are "pass-first", are actually looking a lot for their own offense, as well as to set people up. Even with Chris Paul, who was 3rd on his team in shot attempts, took the 3rd most shots of the PGs in this top 10 list ( behind Iverson and Baron ) When you talk about a guy like Conley, we know that he can set people up. But does he possess the ability to literally take over a game with his scoring? Because when you look at the Hawks, we don't have many great offensive scorers and shooters, outside of Joe Johnson. Lue can do it, but he isn't efficient all the time in setting people up. Salim can do it, but he's streaky. Marvin's mid-range game is nice, but he still has work to do as an offensive player. When you look at us as a whole, we don't have an efficient low post threat and we don't have a lot of high percentage shooters. Those are two things that a "pass-first" PG needs, in order for him to make others better. My fear about Conley, is that he's a Speedy Claxton / Brevin Knight clone. Neither of those guys were bad PGs in the league. They just weren't franchise / impact type PGs. I can't see Conley possibly taking over a game on those nights in which JJ is either struggling with his shot, or getting double and triple-teamed all night. When that happens, Conley is going to be the guy who is wide open for the jumper. And with his suspect jumper, he might do the same thing that Speedy does. That's not to say that I would be against having Conley here, because he can get into the paint . . ala what a healthy Speedy does. Law, on the other hand, can do just about everything that Conley does, with the exception that Law is a much better jumpshooter than Conley. Law's mid-range game may have been the best in college basketball amongst all guards last year. He's the PG in this draft, other than Javaris, who can literally take a game over offensively, if he has to. When you see how Deron is playing these days, it's not because he's become a greater "pass-first" PG. It's because he's becoming a deadly double-threat . . passing and scoring the basketball. His shot attempts in the playoffs are up to 16.2 per game, while his assists are still around 9 per game. But in this San Antonio serires, when he's seeing that guys like Okur and AK47 are literally selling out the Jazz offensively, Deron has turned it up an even higher notch. He's taking about 21 shots per game, while shooting above 50% FG, and averaging a whopping 30 PPG . . and still averaging 9 assists. I've seen Law take his game to this level, when his team needed him the most, on a few occasions. But I haven't seen Conley do it. And the reason why I haven't seen him do it, is because I don't think he's capable of doing it . . because of his suspect jumper outside of 18 feet. Once these workouts start, I think Acie will move into the top 10 . . . possibly the top 7. When that happens, the Hawks are going to have to make a HUGE decision, because I think Conley will still be in that top 7 as well. Do you take Conley or Law with that #3 pick? I think Memphis may be leaning to take a PG with that #4 pick. If Conley is there, they probably take him. If Law moves up into the top 7, then they'll take whomever is left between Law and Conley. When you look at what our team needs, I tend to agree with Donte on this one. We need a big ( but we probably won't get a quality one in this draft that can help us right away ). So if the choice is between which PG do we take, I'm taking Law over Conley . . even at #3. Law has the ability to come in and help us immeadiately from a playmaking and scoring standpoint. He'd make people pay dearly for double-teaming JJ. I can't say the same for Conley. Conley would try to score the majority of his points off penetration, which isn't a bad thing at all. Problem is, we'd have to wait on him a few years for him to develop his jumper. And if he couldn't get into the lane as easily as he could in college ( which is a high probability that he couldn't ), then we would be in trouble. It would be another Speedy situation here, with a guy who couldn't consistently knock down at 20 footer. My hope is that Law somehow doesn't elevate his draft status, or other players vault over him, to keep him available at #11. At the #3, I'm definitely looking to trade that pick for a PROVEN VETERAN PF that can score on the low block ( beacuse I don't think there are any good centers out there at all that are better than 3/4ths of the PFs in this league ). If I can't get a low-block / baseline scoring PF, I'm looking to trade that pick for any star or borderline star player who may have worn out his welcome on his current team. If we can't adequately address the needs of this team, we must try to drastically upgrade the talent, even at a position where we're strong at. ( LOL . . as much as Walter and I have disagreed this season, I absolutely agree with him about the #3 pick. With that pick, we need an immeadiate impact player with star qualities RIGHT NOW, not one that we have to nurture into becoming a star. )

Quote: Law better get a lot quicker in the next two weeks cause his defense is suspect and Conley is quick as hell. Talk is cheap. If you got something, shut your mouth and deliver it in person. I don't want a talker. I want a player. All he did was stoke Conley. Law better get ready for an ass whooping cause I've seen his defense and it needs work. Thats why I'm for Conley....he plays D. Pete, Acie will be more than ready for the challenge. The Big 12 isn't a chop liver conference ya know. Acie's D might be suspect, but we KNOW that Conley's jumper is highly suspect. That's why anybody saying, including Acie, that either guy is head and shoulders above the other, really haven't watched either guy play. I mean, it's like choosing between Chris Paul and Deron Williams. Up until the playoffs, almost everybody would've taken Paul. But Deron has proven that he may be even better than Paul. Still, both guys are very close to each other.

I've been reading a lot of these posts over my cellphone while at work. I don't have a lot of time to use the computer to post, so I just follow the site on my cell. When I see everything that is posted about Conley, and see how some of you guys compare him to current NBA PGs, I think that some of you actually may want Law instead. Question 1: How many times have people actually seen Law play? This is big in my opinion. I don't think a lot of you have watched Acie more than twice. Some of you keep acting like Conley is head and shoulders above Law. That's just not the case. When these guys start working out, Law ( and Critt's ) stock will rise, while Conley's will either stay the same or even drop. The same things being said about not watching Yi play, should be applied to Law. Those of you who haven't watched Law play, or haven't seen Law at his best, really don't know what kind of player he can be for the Hawks. Why do I say that? It's because of question #2 . . Question 2: Who has the potential to be the better all-around offensive player? And when I say that, I'm not just talking about shooting. I'm talking about shooting and playmaking ability. When you look at both of these guys, I say to myself . . "there isn't a single thing that Conley does, that Acie Law can't. But there is definitely one thing that Law does, that Conley can't." And that is SHOOT the basketball. Playmaking wise, Law didn't have a dominant low post option to get the ball to, nor did he have a shooter like a Ron Lewis, to toss the ball out to on the perimeter. And Law SITLL averaged 5 assists a game. Shooting wise, this isn't even a debate. I saw where Diesel posted Conley's FT% and 3FG% the other day. I knew Conley was a poor shooter from 3, but I didn't realize that he was a sub 70% FT shoooter. When you talk about the top 20 FT shooting PGs, ALL of them shoot over 80% FT. Even Jason Kidd, a notoriously poor shooter from the field, shot 77% FT last year. I cite this because for the type of game that Conley is going to have to play on the NBA level to get his points, ( slashing PG who gets to the rim, and might draw some fouls ) he's going to have to be able to get his points from the FT line. And if you think that guys can just get to the NBA, and become good shooters or even increase his FT shooting, think again. We see big guys who are perennial poor FT shooters, stay poor FT shooters. The same goes for PGs who struggle shooting over 75% FTs. The prime example is Jamal Tinsley, who is a career 71% FT shooter. Throughout his career, he's never shot over 74% FT. Couple that with his poor shooting from the field, and you have a PG that will never be more than just a decent PG. But the thing that should concern people the most about Conley, is his 30% 3FG. That should scare the hell out of people? Why? Because the college 3 pointer is essentially a MID-RANGE shot in the NBA. That's a shot that you MUST hit 40% - 50% of the time on the pro level, especially when open. Speedy Claxton shot 38% from 3 in his senior year at Hofstra. On the NBA level, he has virtually no three point range, and is shaky at best from the mid-level ( 18 - 21 feet ). People bring up Conley's 50% + shooting from the field, which is definitely great on the college level. But how does that translate to the pro game, when you're not comfortable shooting a mid-range NBA jumper, and your opportunities to get to the rim will be limited? To me, Conley shows that he can be a great playmaker at times. But if he's not making plays for people, he could actually become a HUGE liability for us. So in essence, Conley SCREAMS to me . . Rajon Rondo. Same EXACT type of player. - great on the ball defender - good to great playmaker ( keep in mind that Rondo didn't have a great center to pass the ball to ) - suspect jumpshot - great penetrator - not so great FT shooter Rondo's numbers in his 1st year in the NBA? college 48% FG . . pro 42% FG college 57% FT . . pro 64% FT college 27% 3FG . . pro 21% 3FG You guys expecting Conley to just magically improve his offensive output on the pro level, may be in for a very rude awakening. If Acie Law moves into the top 10 after his workouts, and the Hawks need a PG, they might have to consider taking Law as high as #3. If you take a PG that high, Law is the way to go, because of his upside as an offensive player. Conley doesn't have Law's upside in that area. 10 seconds left . . Hawks ball . . down by 1. Who would you rather have running the point? Law or Conley? Even if the ball is going to JJ, who do you want on the floor during that time?

Quote: This will no doubt lead to some of the most moronic trade proposal threads this site has ever seen, led by the same few posters. What happened to this place? Well . . at least this gets people off of the Yi at center stuff for a while. Smoove ( singed and traded ) + Marvin + Speedy + #3 . . for Kobe PG - Law ( #11 ) G - Kobe F - JJ F - Shelden C - ZaZa G - Salim G - Lue G - AJ F - Chill F - Solomon F - Wright C - sign someone w/the MLE At least ATL wouldn't draw 12,000 to a game anymore. That team might even be a top 4 team in the East . . no chance to win a title though. Kobe - JJ would get us to the ECF.

Quote: I know this should go in around the league, but FWIW Kobe was just talking to Stephen A Smith on ESPN radio and said that he wants out of LA for sure. SAS asked if there was anything the lakers could do at this point to change his mind, and he said no. He's 100% done in LA. With that being said, Kobe won't be coming here, so please don't respond with 300 Kobe to Atlanta trades. Funny . . I made a joke the other day about what would Hawksquawk do if Kobe trade rumors started to swirl, and if they'd even want Kobe here? Interesting. The one guy I would trade JJ for, is Kobe. Well, if Kobe is done in LA, the Lakers will go after Vince CArter, if not for anything, from the entertainment aspect.

You're exactly right RED. WE can get more if we wanted to. The problem, is that this management group, and to a certain extent, this fan base, don't want to invest a lot of money into a proven player that may not have gotten it done somewhere else. Like JJ with us, a lot of the guys that people don't want, just didn't have enough help. Kinda makes you wonder who would be for or against trading for Kobe, if he became available? Would his contract scare people? Would his "selfish" play turn people off? Would his 31 ppg and top 5 defensive player status woo people? Would the thought of a JJ - Kobe dynamic duo woo people? It would be intersting to see how this fan base would react to Kobe rumors ( even though that isn't possible ). Or more realistically, Vince Carter rumors. I wonder how many would be against bringing in a player like Vince, if the Hawks name suddenly popped up in people interested in him? ( By the way, the NY Post reported that the Knicks would become interested in Vince, should he become a free agent. ) To win in this league, you pretty much need 2 all-star caliber players on your team. All of the playoff teams, with the exception of Orlando, Toronto and the hobbled Washington team without Arenas and Butler, possessed 2 players like that. Even Odom for the Lakers is a borderline all-star talent. ( all of these teams lost in the 1st round, by the way ) The big question for us is: Can Smoove elevate his game to all-star level by next year? If not, can Marvin do it? If the answer to both of those questions are no, then we're a borderline playoff team at best. I'm not against not letting them prove themselves, to see if they can elevate their games. But I'm also not against acquiring a better player than both of them, to get the TEAM where we need to be by this time next year. I am against getting lesser players to fill needs on this team, by trading one of our young players or draft picks, for guys who may not be an upgrade at the position. Here's something just for fun. It doesn't mean a thing. Which players would you rather have? Choose 1 each between A & B and between C & D. And tell me why? PLAYER A's best month last season: 14.7 ppg 8 rebs 1.6 blks 0.9 stls 52% FG 73% FT PLAYER B's best month last season: 13.0 ppg 7.8 rebs 0.4 blks 1.4 stls 52% FG 76% FT PLAYER C's best month last season: 36 mpg 15.1 ppg 5.7 assists 3.0 rebs 1.2 stls 2.6 turnovers 48% FG 44% 3FG 89% FT PLAYER D's best month last season: 34 mpg 16.7 ppg 7.0 assists 2.7 rebs 0.3 stls 1.8 turnovers 46% FG 35% 3FG 91% FT

Quote: Offensively it will be an upgrade, but starting Smith and Randolph at PF and C spells interior defensive DOOM. Zach is a HORRIBLE defender and also has head issues, do you REALLY want to pay him 18 million 4 years from now?? That all but ensures Smith is gone after his rookie contract is up, we aren't resigning Smith to a decent deal if we have Randolph's contract on our hands. I think the lineup that Golden St. put out on the floor, spelled interior doom for them. It depends on what kind of player he is 4 years from now. I mean, how many PFs in this league can get you 23 and 10 every night? That kind of a potent offensive player usually gets max dollars. If he's still putting up those kinds of numbers, he's definitely worth max money. The difference between a Smith - Randolph - M.Williams frontline compared to a Biendrins - ( Barnes or Harrington ) - Richardson frontilne, is that our frontline would be able to rebound AND score much better than theirs, thus, limiting a lot of 2nd chance points on those times in which we'd play good "on the ball" defense. A Charlotte oe Utah frontline would still kill us, but we'd have the ability to get those points right back, with a low post option like Zack. As far as it ensuring Smith is gone after his rookie contract, I disagree. You're assuming that Smith is going to get offered a max contract by somebody next summer. If he played with the same efficiency that he did in March, when he averaged 20 points, 9 rebounds, 3 assists, and 3 blocks ( 4 turnovers also ), then yes, somebody might offer him max money. But I don't think that's a guarantee at all, because the list of teams that will be able to do that, is far less than what you think it is. And it becomes miniscule if Charlotte goes after Vince Carter, if he decides to opt out of his contract. If anything, it may be that Marvin doesn't get re-signed ( 2009 ), or possibly even Shelden for that matter ( 2010 ). And it may be that re-signing JJ becomes a difficult task to re-sign in 2010. But if we're not winning by then, JJ's not re-signing anyway. Quote: No he doesn't. 2 on 1's and 3 on 2's are the pretty much the only time fast break opportunities are there. To run a fast break, all you need is a 5 that can rebound and make a good kickout pass. What about a 5 that can lead the break himself off of a rebound? Isn't that what Smith does a lot right now? I go crazy when he does it, but that is an asset to his offensive game and to the team, when he doesn't turn the ball over doing that. I'd much rather him be a finisher out on the fast break. But even I have to admit that Smoove starting fast breaks at times has helped us win games. LOL . . this kid tossed an alley-oop pass to Salim in that great Denver game back in December, after Shelden won a jumpball and tipped it in Smoove's area. It was a risky, but great play at the same time, because it caught the defense totally by surprise. Most big men, after recoving a tip like that, would've handed the ball off to his PG, and had to set up an offensive play in the 1/2 court. But Smoove immeadiately got the ball and took off up the floor. It just so happens that Salim did the exact same thing, like they were reading each other's minds, or maybe they discussed doing just that before the jumpball occured. At any rate, Salim's catch and shoot in the air was blocked by J.R. Smith, but it was called a goaltend, and tied the game up at 94. It was a play that your average PF wouldn't dream of making, but Smoove's decision to do that may have won the game for the Hawks, seeing that the Hawks had failed to score in 3 consecutive 1/2 court possesions before that jumpball. A lot of people on this board think we're suited to be a running team, because of what Smith does when he tries to push the tempo. Lue doesn't push tempo. AJ doesn't. Speedy tried to do it ( when his knees feel good ). Fact is, the only people on this team that try to play uptempo, are Smoove and Salim, and Chill to a certain extent. But most of the time, it's Smoove pushing the tempo. ********** By the way Atlas, I don't disagree with you about Zack and the deficiencies that he may bring to this team, including his contract. Yes, he is a horrible defender. Yes, he is a head case. But he's also a guy that can get you 20 and 10 every night. He's also one of the game's best low post scorers on the block and from the baseline. As as far as his contract goes, the vast majority of winning teams in this league, have two guys who are making max money, or close to it. Does his deficiencies outweigh his assets as a player? If so, then BK probably doesn't make a move for him. If not, don't be surprised if a deal like that gets done. And no, Zack wouldn't be the guy I would target in exchange for a #3 pick. With that pick, I'd target either O'Neal or Gasol, because they're PFs with center-like abilities on both ends of the floor. But Zack instantly makes the Hawks better. And he has the ability to carry the team offensively on those nights when JJ is struggling. One thing I'll say about ZaZa. He's horrible defensively. But when he does play well offensively, the Hawks are usually in a good position to win a game. Hawks record when ZaZa scores 20 or more points: 6 - 5 Sometimes, a bad defensive player can cancel out his bad defense, if he plays well offensively. It's when that bad defensive player is also playing horribly offensively, that it comes back to be a major problem. We can talk about building a title contending team all we want here. But we have to first get to the playoffs, before thoughts like that even cross people's minds. So do we continue to wait on potential and players to develop, while saving money in the process? Or do we go after proven players who may make a lot of money, to help us elevate the Hawks to playoff level immeadiately? But I don't want this pick traded for another young "potential" guy.

I got no problem with that. It brings a PROVEN VETERAN to this team that can score and make his teammates better. People will shoot it down though, because you have Shelden starting at the 5.

Quote: I think that we don't really need the kind of production that Randolph provides. 23/10 is really good.. But what's he shooting? From my understanding there's a black hole in PTL and he's wearing number 50. Zach Randolph makes Glenn Robinson look like Toni Kukoc. Think about why he is a black hole though. Other than Roy, there is no other reliable offensive option on that team. When you look at that Portland team, it almost resembles what we have here, in the fact that they have a lot of guys with "potential" who are shooting a fairly low percentage from the field, in regard to the positions they play. Zebo shoots almost 47% from the field. I pray to God that Smoove and Marvin could shoot 47% next year. They have the ability to do it, but they may not do it in the same breath. IF Smoove and Marvin could shoot 47% FG, that would be HUGE for us. Zack's problem is that he's not a team leader. And he'll never will be. But he's a guy who could be a very good #2 option next to a star player. I bet LeBron wishes he had a Zack Randolph to throw the ball to these days. So would Kobe. I think the mindset of this organzation and its fan base is going to have to change at some point VERY SOON. We just can't keep adding "potential" and young players to this lineup. At some point, we're going to have to trust that JJ, JS, JC, and Marvin can become the core of this team. And it also means that if we can add a good veteran player to this team, regardless of the position he plays, we should look to do it ASAP. The more I look at our options via the draft and via free agency, the more I truly believe that once the season starts, Josh Smith may be starting at the 5. He's already played the 5 a lot over the years, especially whenw we put Chill, Marvin, and JJ out on the floor with him. If he adds another 5 - 10 pounds of muscle to his frame this summer, he may be asked to do just that. Josh's problem is that he's a little soft. If he's asked to play center, he's going to have to get a lot tougher. I watched the last Phoenix game we played against them the other day. Josh played well, but Amare pretty much had his way with him. I'd like to see Smoove come back with a warrior type mindset, especially since he'll probably not have a contract extension by the time the season starts. He has the ability to play bigger than his 6-9 height, when he wants to. Don't call him a center though, because he isn't. He'll just be part of a 3 forward . . or 4 forward lineup ( depending if you want to call JJ a SF with SG skills ). But then again, it seems like this is the way the league is going these days. But Smoove may provide our best chance at winning, if he plays the 5 and is able to use his quickness to beat centers off the dribble. On the defensive end, he'll have to be a more displined man to man defender, and not try to block every shot. If we can't get a quality big man in the draft or via free agency, you'll see the Hawks play a lot of zone, and try to use their athleticism to frustrate teams on the defensive end. We're probably not going to be able to trade for a GOOD center ( not just a space eater ). So we may have to opt for trading to get somebody who can at least score in the low post. And when we do that, it'll probably be for a PF. It may be a PF with center-like skills in the low post ( Gasol or O'Neal ). Or it may be for a scoring PF, like a Zack Randolph. If we're able to put this lineup on the floor, I can't argue against it, because it would be an upgrade from what we put on the floor last year. PG - Law G - JJ F - Marvin ( or Chill ) . . whichever one is traded F - Randolph F - Smoove Bench: G - Speedy ( or Lue ) . . whichever one gets traded G - Salim G - AJ ( if he isn't included in a deal ) F - Solomon F - Shelden G/F/C - ??? If people TRULY want this team to run, Smoove will probably have to play the 5, in order for us to be a very effective running team. Let Smoove outrun the big man, while also having the option to throw it down low to a guy like Randolph, who can get you offense from the low block.

http://www.nba.com/news/usa_basketball_men...ht_players.html Good. Rather have him rested and completely healed for us, than playing qualifying games for the US this summer. Interesting additions though.

. . this summer, by using the picks and the young talent the Hawks have acquired for the past 3 years. We all know what we "need". Problem is, we probably can only get 1/2 of what we need via the draft. And if we trade for a center, there is no guarantee that we'll get one that is worth a damn. For the most part, teams aren't giving up their big man, if he's an adequate player. So the next alternative, is to use our picks and some of our young talent, to trade for a STAR PLAYER on another team, or a borderline star. Folks, the fact is that the NBA is built around STARS. You need more than one STAR on your team, regardless of position, to really see your squad make that jump to the next level. If a team acquires two star players, you may can get away with surrounding them with mediocre talent, and still be able to win . . and possibly win big. The history of the league has shown this trend time and time again. So maybe the mindset of fans need to change on this board. Instead of acquiring players with "potential" at "need" positions, maybe we need to just acquire veteran STAR talent, regardless of the position they play. We're in a position to really bring a big time player here, and not some young kid with potential. And we'll be able to do this RIGHT NOW, if we have to. Here are some names to look out for this summer. More will probably be looked at. ************* Paul Pierce ( 4 yrs - 74 million left on his deal ) When you look at Pierce, you see a guy who has played an an all-star level for the past 6 years. Unfortunately for Paul, he's in the exact same situation that Joe Johnson is in here in ATL. Surrounded by a lot of young talent with "potential", without another guy. The best player he's ever played with, has been Antoine Walker. Both were good enough back in 01 - 02 to see take the Celtics to the Eastern Conference Finals. For the Hawks, a JJ - Pierce dynamic duo would be hard to stop offensively. The trick would be to surround these guys with smart, hard-nosed defensive players, even if they lack great offensive skills. For Boston, it gives them a chance to completely start anew, and get Pierce's 74 million off of their books. With the #3 and #5 picks in this year's draft, they could go a long way in rebuilding that franchise the way they want to. Add a player like Marvin Williams, and they would really have a lot of young talent to choose from, if they chose to trade Pierce. #3 + Marvin + Lue + Wright . . gets that deal done, if Boston wants to acquire talent plus get 1/2 of Pierce's money off the books by next summer. Hawks potential lineup: PG) Law . . G) Pierce . . F) JJ . . F) Smith . . C) ZaZa Jermaine O'Neal ( 3 yrs - 62 million left on his deal ) Of course, this is the deal that would benefit the Hawks the most. It's an unlikely deal though, seeing that Indy probably isn't willing to part with Jermaine without getting a big time asset in return. The one thing in favor of the Hawks when dealing with Indy, is that they might be desperate right now. Dangling that #3 pick to them, after we took their #11 pick, may be enticing enough to pry O'Neal away from them. Here's the problem, they'd probably want Josh Smith. No way we can do that. So we'd have to play "chicken" with Indy, to see how bad they want the pick. And the Pacers have a few bad contracts on the books, with Dunleavy and Murphy, so they might be willing to make a deal, just for picks and potential cap room. This is a deal in which maybe Marvin and Chill would probably have to go, plus expiring contracts, in order for the deal to work. Either that, or get more teams involved. Hawks lineup: PG) Law ( or Lue ) . . G) JJ . . F) Smith . . F) S. Williams . . C) O'Neal Zack Randolph ( 4 yrs - 51 million left on deal ) A lot has already been said about Zack. And a lot of that is pure BS. Zebo is a baller, plain and simple. He's been a pretty steady 18 - 20 ppg and 9 - 10 rpb guy for the last 4 years. He's improved in areas in which he was weak. And he's learned how to effectively be a scoring option in this league. But it isn't his fault that he's played with a bunch of young players and old pot heads the past 4 years. As JJ will tell you, "I need help!!" But Zebo is not a STAR. He's a borderline one, but not a star. He's a good 2nd option complimentary player to a star. Put it like this, he's the 2005 version of Al Harrington with a better low post game. Offensively, he's what we'd hope Josh Smith will be next year. Question: Would you rather have a guy who you KNOW can get you 20 ppg and 10 rebs every night, or continue to wait to see if Marvin, Smoove or Chill develop? There's no right or wrong answer to this, especially if you think that Marvin or Smoove can be a 20 and 10 guy very soon. If not, then you at least have to consider the Zebo option here. If Portland wants the #3 pick that bad, I'll take Zebo. But I'd offer Portland the absolute minimum I could, to get him here. ( #3 + Lue + Wright + Shelden ). We don't necessarily need Zack, but he would be a talent upgrade here. If we did acquire Randolph, the Hawks would seriously have to consider playing Smoove as an athletic 5. Hawks Lineup: PG) Law . . G) JJ . . F) Marvin . . F) Zebo . . F) Smoove If you like Golden State's style of play, that's a team that you can run with, and still have players like Chill, Marvin, Salim, ZaZa and Solomon to come off the bench. Shawn Marion ( 2 yrs - 33.5 million . . player option in 08 ) Funny that I even mention a Phoenix player in this mix. Contrary to rumors, I don't believe for one second that Phoenix will trade Amare, so I won't even list him in a trade scenario. But they will trade Marion . . . in a heartbeat. And they'll do it not only to keep from going into Luxury Tax land next year. They'll do it to possibly make more room for Diaw to really have a chance to earn his money. This deal was mentioned yesterday by a Phoenix fan on another board. Speedy + Marvin + Chill . . for Marion. Granted, I don't think any team would trade for Speedy, and his contract. But it's not as "dumb" as it may seem on the surface. For Phoenix, Speedy ( if he became healthy ), could serve as their defensive backup PG for Nash. Right now, no one really fills that role, seeing that Barboas plays NO DEFENSE whatsoever. When talking about Childress, he's a guy that may really become good in a running system like that. ( many of you have mentioned that he'd be good on a Western team, because they play more uptempo ). But Marvin is the wildcard in this. Would giving up Marvin be a little too much, for just Marion? I think it would. Instead, I'd offer them ZaZa or the #11 pick instead. For the Hawks, Marion improves this defense, especially in the 1/2 court, by leaps and bounds. He would immeadiately become our defensive stopper when guarding the superstar 2's and 3's in this league. And he's shown the ability to effectively guard very good 4's in this league as well. The great fallacy of this fan base is that we lose games because of the issues at PG. It's a factor in why we lose, but it isn't the biggest reason. The Hawks lose, simply because they can't defend GOOD FRONTCOURT PLAYERS. Whether it be at the 4 or the 5, we have a problem slowing down the good players, and a hard time stopping even scrubs who come against us. Add Marion to the mix, and it would go a long way to addressing that, especially since there is no defensive center on the horizon that we can probably get. Hawks lineup . . from original trade involving Speedy, Chill, and Marvin: G) Law (#11) . . G) JJ . . F) Marion . . F) Smoove . . F/C) ZaZa . . . . with Lue, Salim, Solomon, (#3) Wright and Shelden backing them up. One major problem with acquiring Marion. He has a player option at the end of the 2008 season. That means that he could be here only one year, then bounce right out of here. If the Hawks were to deal for Marion, they'd have to make sure that they could re-sign him to an extension. And that extension would probably have to be somewhere less than 10 million per. ************* The point is this folks. We're probably making a move to bring in an established talent here with this #3 pick. No more time to wait on potential. And since there are no star or impact players who can be BIG TIME right away after Oden and Durant go off the board, it's probably best that we trade the pick to get a talent like that. Drafting Conley has the same parameters that drafting Chris Paul had. If we take him at #3, you better damn well make sure that he's isn't the next T.J. Ford . . but the next Isaiah Thomas or the next Nate "Tiny" Archibald. You don't settle for just the best PG in this draft, if he doesn't look like he'll be a star right away. But if you have a chance to trade that #3 pick for a star, even if it's a star in a position you don't need, you make the move. If you take the PG, make sure that he has star written all over him, not just "good, fill the need PG". Tim Duncan won a title with Rasho Nesterovic as his center. Karl Malone got to the finals with Greg Oestertag in the starting lineup. Kobe and Shaq won titles with Derek Fisher "running" the point. LeBron is in the conference finals, without a legit PG and just a decent offensive center. Stars are who take you to the promise land. Role players help you win the whole thing. We're at a point now where we need to get the star talent where we can, then fill the needs elsewhere with quality players. Remember . . BK is probably running out of time as well. So whatever moves he makes this summer, will have to be moves that really put us in position to make the playoffs NEXT YEAR . . not in 2 - 3 years. And the quickest way a team can do that, is to add another player the caliber, or just below a Joe Johnson . . even if he is another forward or 2-guard. You just put him beside JJ, and see if both of them can get it done, with the help of the remaining young talent left on the squad.

Oh God . . we're going to take Yi aren't we? (( breathing )) As long as we get Law at #11 . . we'll be OK. Acie is the crown jewel for the Hawks. Dammit Billy . . just come up with a damn good trade, and get us a good vet, or a couple of them.

LOL @ teke . . . I agree. When I saw Milwaukee at #6, I was like . . Oh man, we might actually get into the top 3. After that commercial break, I had a bad feeling that we were going to get called at #3, even though I was praying it wasn't. Being at #3 isn't the worst case scenario . . . but it's close. Being at #3 means that we actually have to "think" about what we're going to do with the pick, instead of thinking about how to trade Marvin or Chill or Shelden, to compliment JJ, Smoove and Durant or Oden. Right now, I'd just rather make a trade, and bring an established player here that can help us right away. At #11 . . take Law.

Quote: PG - Speedy or Law G - JJ F - Marvin F - Shelden ( he'll probably have to start ) F/C - Gasol Actually, I forgot about us acquiring the #4 pick from Memphis. We could actually use that to get Brandan Wright. So Shelden may or may not have to start. In either case, we'd have Gasol in the middle, JJ on the outside, and Marvin as the #3 scorer.

Quote: Marvin is a duplicate of a position of strength. I don't think he completes that deal. Not necessarily. Marvin is a much better mid-range shooter and shoots better from the line than both Gay and Warrick. Gay is the better slasher and 3 point shooter. Warrick is the most physical of the 3 and better post player. Swift plays the 4 and the 5. Gay routinely moves to the 2, whenever Mike Miller is out of the game. Warrick can play both the 3 and the 4. Marvin can play the 2, 3, and 4, in Memphis' offense. They'll find minutes for him easily, if a trade was made for him. If they want to go super athletic, they won't turn down acquiring another athlete who can shoot the ball.

Quote: Quote: He put the Grizz on his back and took them to the playoffs the last two or three years so I'm not sure where that 4th quarter stuff is coming from. He didn't do great in the playoffs but that was with the entire defens designed to shut him down and he got no help from his team. He'd at least have JJ and Smoove here. There is just something about him that bothers me. Hell though, maybe he's the best option. The team does need somebody that can score inside. If that'z the best out there what else can you do? Hot, he's a Abdur-Rahim type player in which he's a good talent, but he's not the guy you want being the star or the "go-to-guy" on the team. JJ is our guy. He's proven that he can be THE guy. If we traded for Gasol, or any other decent post player, you now create an inside-outside threat for this team, that frees up not only JJ, but everybody else on the team. But I think Memphis would be asking for Smoove in exchange for Gasol. I don't know how well that would sit with Hawk fans who are absolutely in love with Josh.

Quote: I think we're trading the #3 pick to Grizzlies for Gasol and their first pick or some vet point guard off their team. The way this sounds it makes me think Knight doesn't want to keep the pick. Memphis wants a PG now, to go along with their athletic forwards. If push came to shove, they could always move Stromile Swift back to the 5 spot, and finally give him the chance to be the starter. Gasol + Memphis #4 for #3 + Marvin and ZaZa . . would get the deal done. Memphis might ask for more though . . like a sign and traded Josh Smith + #3 for Gasol + #4. That would be an interesting deal for both sides. Smoove fans wouldn't like it at all. Shelden fans would finally get to see if Shelden can average a double-double as a starter, while Marvin gets a chance to flourish as the #3, possibly the #2 option. Memphis lineup: PG - Conley G - Miller F - hmmm . . . Rudy Gay or Marvin F - Warrick F/C - Swift or PG - Conley G - Miller F - Gay F - Warrick F - Smith That's definitely a running team, and might be the most athletic in the league . . even more than ours. For us: PG - Speedy or Law @ #11? G - JJ F - Chill F - Smoove F/C - Gasol or PG - Speedy or Law G - JJ F - Marvin F - Shelden ( he'll probably have to start ) F/C - Gasol

Quote: Alot of you act like those 2 are great and would instantly turn our team around. They were on the same team and couldnt win a ncaa title much less an have a great impact in the nba right away. They were a bad call away from going out in round 2 to Xavier for God sake. Im not saying they wont be stars down the road but it will take time. I would actually rather get Durant and Law with pick 2 and 11 or 1 and 11. I know we need size more than anything and Oden has that. I know there is no way we pass him up with pick 1 but Durant is almost a lock to be the way better player. LOL . . they should've lost to my Vols in the Sweet 16. I can't believe they blew that game. Forget Oden and Conley . . give me Oden and Law. I can definitely roll with that. That'll be like Christmas for me.

Quote: Follow along what might have occurred had the Hawks not dealt for JJ (only one possible scenario of course): 1) we keep Diaw (no big deal) OK Quote: 2) we keep the 2006 #21 pick - which was used for Rondo. Marcus Williams went #22 and we know BK was interested in him. I say we would have picked Marcus Williams, likely. I could see that . . OK. Quote: 3) we would be certain to have our pick in this draft, likely #5. This becomes Hibbert, most likely. I disagree. I think we'd been one of the 3 worst teams in the league going into this draft. We'd probably be in the same position as a Boston, with about 20 - 26 wins . . that is, if we were healthy. It may be worse if we had the same amount and the same type of injuries we had this year. So the pick probably becomes Oden or Durant. Quote: 4) most importantly, our ownership is not fractured by the JJ deal fallout. Legal trouble perhaps never occur. I can see that . . OK. Quote: 5) Since we pick Marcus Williams in June 06, we never sign Speedy in July 06. True . . but we still might have major problems at the PG postion. Marcus struggled this year playing the point in Jersey at times this year. He has talent, no doubt about that. But he makes silly, if not stupid turnovers as well, by trying to do way too much. Add the fact that he only shot 39.5% FG, and we'd potentially still have a BIG PROBLEM at the point. In fact, Tyronn Lue may have very well have still been the starter going into this season, even if we'd drafted Marcus. And if Lue goes down in the same fashion that he did this year, the burden of playing the point would've went to Marcus. Would he respond positiviely and prove that he's the future PG of the Hawks? Or would he prove why he dropped from a top 10 pick, all the way into the 20s? It's conceivable that we'd still be in the market for a PG. Quote: 6) Since we have no JJ, we don't need to pick Shelden at #5. We pick Roy instead because we still have a huge hole at SG. If we had no JJ, I don't think the Hawks win more than 15 - 20 games in the 2005 - 06 season. And if that's the case, we're probably a top 3 lottery team, with the worst record going into the draft. JJ was a big reason why Harrington played so well in the 05 - 06 season. JJ probably got 2 assists a game from Harrington converting off of his passes. Sometimes, those assists came because Harrington converted on 3 pointers. So JJ probably contributed 4 - 7 points to Harrington every game. But for the 06 - 07 squad, this is how important JJ was to the Hawks this year: * when JJ scored 30 or more points, the Hawks were 12 - 7 * when JJ scored 25 or more points, the Hawks were 18 - 18 * when JJ scored less than 20 points, the Hawks were 1 - 12 So if he had a bad game, we were dead in the water . . period. If he had a good game, we at least had a fighting chance. In the NBA, if you're not a well balanced team in which many guys can score at least double digits every night, you better have a guy on your squad that can get you 25 points on any given night. A team would preferably like to have 2 or 3 of those guys. The Hawks only had one. And if JJ weren't here, they wouldn't have any guy like that on the squad. And they wouldn't have a balanced enough team to depend on 7 - 8 guys to score on a given night. Quote: 7) we probably still pick Solo because we still are weak in the front court at that point. I can see that . . OK. Quote: 8) We still have the #11 pick in the 2007 draft - we can take BPA. OK. Quote: 9) we have a ton more cap room - no JJ and no speedy. Probably BK would have made another dumb free agent signing but we can't know for sure. OK. Quote: Ultimate woulda-coulda-shoulda team: Marcus Williams / Lue Roy / Chills Marvin / Diaw Smoove / Solo / #11 pick Hibbert / Zaza I'll break it down even further in the 3 seasons you're talking about: 2005 - 06 squad: PG - Lue, Salim, Ivey G - Chill, Diaw, Donta F - Smoove, Marvin F - Harrington, Batista C - ZaZa, Edwards Offseason question #1: What do you do with Al Harrington at this point? On this team, he'd obviously be the best player on the squad. And his contract is coming up at the end of the 06 season. Do you re-sign Al, or let him walk? If you let him walk, you better be sure that you can either get a big name FA to come here that can SCORE, or you better make sure that one of the kids you have on your roster, can become that scorer. Offseason question #2: Who do you take in the draft, if you have the #1 or #2 pick? Like I said before. Without JJ, that 05 - 06 team may be looking at being one of the worst 2 teams in the league. So we're not looking at a #5 pick, we're looking at a #1 or #2 pick. BK was high on Bargnani, so does he take him? How about Aldridge? Thomas? God forbid . . but Morrison? The one guy that I don't think BK takes, is Foye or Roy, if he's picking #1 or #2. Roy would definitely be a good pick for that team, seeing that you still have a scoring need ( especially if Al is gone ). If you get the #2 or #3 pick, maybe you trade down to get Roy. But I think Aldridge may be the route that he goes here if he has a top 2 pick. * Also of note: If that 05 - 06 squad finished with the worst record, I think that Woody is fired, or at least given a very short leash going into the 06 - 07 season. No 3 - 10 starts would be tolerated from Woody in 06 - 07, if the team was healthy. The hook would probably be quick. 2006 - 07 squad: PG - Lue, Marcus Williams, Ivey G - Chill, Salim F - Marvin, Diaw ( if re-signed ) F - Smoove, Solomon C - Aldridge, ZaZa, Batista Here's a scenario for you. I think if this is the team that is going into the 06 - 07 season, the one guy that has a chance to really break out and be the scoring option, is none other than Salim Stoudamire. When you look at this team without a JJ, Salim is the only guy, outside of Lue, who is capable of pouring in 20 - 25 ppg at any given time. Remember, Smoove hadn't shown the ability to do that early last year. And Chill was good for a solid 15 points, but not a solid 20. Marvin wasn't ready yet. Diaw would still be a scared rabbit on offense, looking to play more of a passing point forward, than look for his own offense. Aldridge would slowly be growing into his own, but far from a difference maker type of player. The offensive leaders would be Lue and Salim. Which means that we would probably live and die by the jumper more than ever. (( And this is why it's probably more likely that the Hawks re-signed Harrington, than trade him and get the #11 pick. They'd have to have SOMEBODY for offense. But if they did trade him, it would be for Marvin to immeadiately try to step in and get the job done. Question is, could he do it right away? )) I mean, look at that squad? The only guys who could create their own offense, would be Lue and Salim. Chill could still be the mini-slasher, but he relies on others to get him the ball when open so that he can knock down the shot. Marvin might start out slow, but develop as the season went along. Maybe Smoove breaks out at the PF spot earlier than expected. The situation may be far worse going into this draft with that team, than people think it is with our current squad. Offseason question #1: Do we break the bank and go after Billups? Cap space wouldn't be a problem with this team. We'd have more than enough money to go after any top notch UFA. But the question is always . . will they sign with us, even if we overpay? If they fail to get Billups, do the Hawks immeadiately go after a guy like Vince Carter, if he were to opt out of his one year remaining deal in Jersey? Offseason question #2: Oden or Durant? I could imagine the debate on this board now, if faced with this decision. * Remember, no 25 ppg scorer in JJ to rely on. * Center wouldn't necessarily be a position of need, seeing that we have Aldridge there. Now, if it's the belief that Aldridge would be a much better PF, than Center, then we could slide him there, and make a BIG DECISION on whether to start Josh Smith or Marvin. * Smoove may or may not have developed to where he is now, so the decision isn't a no-brainer. * Same with Marvin. He may be better than he is right now, because he'd be given the chance to start right away in his rookie year. * Chill would be Chill. * Lue would be the leader, but highly expendible. * Salim would either be rotting away on the bench, or be the "Monta Ellis" of our team, leading the team in scoring, as a 6th or 7th man. As many questions as we have now, there would be even MORE questions surrounding this team at this point right now. So do you get the center that can play great defense, but is still developing as an offensive force? Or do you get another SF, that has the capability to become the next great scorer in this league in a very few years? I think you would still have to go with Oden, and hope that Smoove and Marvin are developing into nice players by now. Offseason question #3: Who do you take at #11? Even more debate would surround this selection. If Williams plays lackluster in his rookie season, would Hawk fans still be crying about obtaining a PG, especially with Lue being in his last year? Or would we be looking for a guy who could score in bunches, regardless of position? The choices may still boil down to Law or Crittenton. Whomever was chosen at #11, they'd probably have to show the ability to score the basketball. Projected 2007 - 08 lineup: PG - Lue, Marcus G - Chill, Salim F - Smoove, Marvin F - Aldridge, Solomon C - Oden, ZaZa #11 pick: choose between Critt or Law or another scorer at any position. Quote: So, maybe even our best moves have bit us in the arse. We can't really judge it completely until tonight. If we don't get a top 3 pick this year, we'll be joining mediocre team hell. Our team will probably be good enough to win 40 games, never contend, no future lotto chances, and be capped out to boot. However, if we do get a top 3 pick (even #3) - it's redemption time. We will have assembled enough capital in order to at least have a chance. With Oden we would be undeniably be the best positioned team in the East for a bright future in a couple of years. I personally think the JJ move saved us from being the 1999 - 2002 Chicago Bulls. In 4 years, they won 13, 17, 15, and 21 games . . despite having drafted: * Elton Brand #1 and Ron Artest #16 in 1999. * Marcus Fizer #4 and Jamal Crawford #8 in 2000. ( they had three 2nd round picks that year too. The #32, #33, and #34 picks. ) * Eddy Curry #4 and trading Brand for Tyson Chandler, who went #2, in 2001. * and Jay Williams #2, who had a horrible rookie year that season, before basially ending his career with that motorcycle accident. The JJ move gave us a bonafide star to build the team around, with the chance to have our young talent develop as well. The vast majority of the time, young teams just don't win in this league. It's proven every year. You'll see a team slip through the cracks here and there. But for the most part, they just don't win. The veteran teams win. It's no coincidence that San Antonio and Detroit are 2 of the final 4 teams for the championship. This isn't saying that I would've done all of the moves that BK has done. It's pretty obvious to everyone that we should've gotten one of the PGs instead of Marvin, because both PGs seem to be more NBA ready than Marvin, even if he turns out to be the better player in the future. But the JJ trade? I'd do that again in a heartbeat. I'd just hope that the team wouldn't be as injured in the 06 - 07 campaign.

Quote: If the Bucks get the #1 pick, I don't want any "told you so"s from the pro-tanking crowd. If the Hawks or Seattle gets the #1 pick, I don't want any "told you so"s from the anti-tanking crowd. You CANNOT use the hindsight of the results of the lottery as part of your argument, as that is information we didn't have when we could have tanked. All rational arguments only discuss the odds we would have going in to the lottery based on our position in the standings, as that's the only thing we could control/know. And more importantly, we're all in this thing together, so there's no point in bickering about what we should have done. Agreed. In about 6 hours, this will be a moot point, no matter where we land. Even the ones of us who were heavily against tanking, aren't rooting against the Hawks not getting a top 2 pick at this point now.