TheNorthCydeRises

Quote: I find it endlessly amusing that this thread has been ignored. Endlessly. It's hysterical to me. These cats around here are stressing out over whether we have an 84% chance of not getting Oden, as opposed to an 88% or 91% chance. They'll say . . "well . . I'd rather be at 84% than at 91%." LOL . . when the odds are stacked against you like that, does it really matter? What bugs me isn't the fact that they want us to lose. What bugs me is that they seemed to get mad at the very players that they cheered for all year, because all they're doing . . is their jobs. If this was December, they'd be all over a player for playing 1/2 speed. But now, that is totally acceptable in their minds, just so that we can stay at an 84% chance of not getting Oden. It's hilarious to me. Now that Smoove is suspended, we'll see how much we fall off . . if we fall off any. But you know what I think will happen? A guy like Shelden Williams is going to start playing pretty good basketball, along with Marvin, and keep the Hawks competitive, if not win a few of these games. Then these clowns will start bytching at Marvin, Shelden, and any other player that goes out and acts like a PROFESSIONAL

Quote: Let's not forget the Terry for Walker trade, and subsequently Walker for a trashbag. Also killing any cap we had by those stupid signings and the completely pointless AJ trade. Both should go, but BK is worse. You do know that the Terry for Walker trade enabled us to not only get about 14 million off the books, but also gave us an extra 1st round pick. The money and the pick was used to get Joe Johnson here. If it wasn't for the prospect of paying him that extra 8 million to give him that first year salary of 20 million, Phoenix probably matches the deal. But because we pulled a "jack move" like that, Phoenix blinked, and we got JJ.

Officially label me a hater of the Hawks and everything they're trying to do for the future . . . Because I LOVED the effort they put out in the 2nd half of that game. Salim dropping 3's all over the place. Shelden controlling the defensive boards and grabbing offensive boards. And Smoove . . what can you say about that guy? As a Hawk fan, how dare I root for the team and the effort of those guys, even though the season is almost officially over. ( One more Magic win or one Hawks loss officially eliminates us from the playoffs . . lol ) But . . OH NO!! The Hawks winning means that our odds of NOT getting Oden with the #1 pick stay at 88.1% . . instead of reducing those odds to 84.4%. God forbid that we go to #5. That'll give us a 91.2% chance of not getting Oden. It is imperative that we stay at that 5 out of 6 chance of NOT getting Oden at #1. OMG . . we can't increase our odds of not getting Oden by having the Hawks win. So we MUST root against the team. Root against your favorite team at all costs, so that our odds can be reduced to 84.4%. Root for us to lose, and root for them to win. (( crying )) It's our only hope!! (( drying tears )) But it's OK . . if we don't get #1, we have a good shot to get #2 and take Durant. But if we don't get #1, we have to hope that the worst team gets that #1 spot. That way, our odds of not getting that #2 spot will be reduced to 79.2% (( sigh )) So if we don't get the #1 or #2 picks . . we have to hope that the "odds" stay true to form ( something that has NEVER happened in the lottery since they changed the format in 1995 ). With the worst and 2nd worst teams out of the way, our odds of not getting that #3 pick will be reduced to 71.7%. That'll be GREAT !! The the future of the Hawks will be SAVED!! We can build a statue in front of Philips arena of the ping-poing lottery machine that gave us our Savior. Hallejua . . thank ya Jesus !! But alas, a famous Hawksquawk poster once said this about obtaining one of the top 3 picks . . "There are essentially 3 drafts for 3 positions. In total with the 3rd worst record we have roughly a 50% chance at a top 3 pick. So let's celebrate!! A 50% chance of getting one of the top 3 picks . . because we can add the probability percentages for each round, and come up with a number that will reflect what chance we have of landing a top 3 pick. Intersting. Well if you add 15.6% ( best odds for a #1 ) + 20.8% ( best odds for a #2 ) + 28.3% ( best odds for a #3 ) . . that equals at best a 64.7% chance of landing a top 3 pick!! YES . . I think!! Uh oh . . but I thought there are essentially 3 separate drafts for 3 positions? And with those 3 separate drafts, doesn't the variable change according to the number of eligible ping-pong combinations left on the board? And if that's true, how can you just add your percentage chances across the board, to come up with an accurate probability? Oh . . that must be the "new math". I get it now. YES !! So if the worst record gets the #1 pick, we'll still have 49.1% chance at best of landing the #2 or #3 pick, right? That would be the best case scenario for a team at the #3 spot, if the worst team got the #1 pick. (( dancing like Snoopy )) But if picks 1 and 2 don't fall our way, is our chance of landing that #3 pick still around 40 - 50% . . because we can add the probability numbers in totality that we used to justify us having a 45 - 50% chance of obtaining a top 3? Kind of confusing to follow, when you're looking at numbers separately and then try to look at them cumulatively at the same time. So let's review: Pick 1 - 156 combinatins divided by 1000 ping-pong combinations = 15.6% chance for that particular pick. Pick 2 - 156 combinaitons divided by X-number of ping-pong combinations left on the board = a variable percentage chance not higher than 20.8% for that particular pick. Pick 3 - 156 combinations divided by X-number of ping-pong combinations left on the board = a variable percentage chance not higher than 28.3% for that particular pick. Three different drafts for three different positions. Also, three different variables for three different drafts to select those 3 different positions. People looking at the probability chance of the draft in its totality, without looking at the acutal chance of a combination falling during each selection, says there is a around a 50% chance of landing a top 3 pick. This keeps "hope" alive . . as Jesse Jackson would say. People like Josh Smith look at the draft as 3 separate drafts, in which your chances in each "draft" put you at a success rate under 30%, in even the best case scenario. That type of thinking keeps him, and others, from sticking their heads in the clouds and dream about something that is unlikely to happen. It's funny though. The same people who "kept" hope alive about a playoff berth for the Hawks, are now the "realists" about the lottery and the actual chances of landing a top 3 pick, even if we're the 3rd worst team at the end of the season. And the people who were the "realists" about the Hawks chances about making the playoffs, are now the people "hoping" that the draft falls our way, by obtaining as many ping-pong ball combinatins as we can, and hoping that the team that they love, lose every game to get those ping-pong balls. Interesting. I guess the difference is that the people who were hoping the Hawks could make the playoffs, did so because the actual players could control their destiny. In the case of the lottery, an uncontrollable variable like the fall of ping-pong balls control the destiny.

Quote: I am sure we wil resign him I just dont no if it will be this off season or Knight wait until he is a restricted free agent and matches like he did with Jason Terry. I wonder if Smith will seak a sort contract like Lebron and Wade so he can become a free agent sooner. It's not good business sense to lock Smoove in with an extension this summer. They should wait until the season starts to finalize any extension. Or you can do just like you said, and just wait until someone gives him an offer, so that we can match it. I'm sure Smoove isn't brave enough to pull an "Eddy Curry", and not sign any offer sheet and take the flat 3.1 million he'll be worth in 08 - 09 . . then become an unrestricted FA after that season. Smoove isn't going anywhere anytime soon, unless he demands to be traded and truly becomes a disruptive locker room presence . . or unless the Hawks don't feel that he's worth more than "x-amount" of dollars or a MAX contract. He'll get his money, starting with the 08 - 09 season, most likely from us. No need to even worry about that right now.

Quote: The sad part is the Hawks are trying to win and still have no leaders at crunch time.Yes I want us to tank thats a given and I don't want anyojne stepping to kill our chances but if you flip the coin who are the leaders that are making the big shots? NO one. JJ is the only one which doesn't bode well for the future. We need a Durant or Oden in the worst way. This current bunch is not going to develop cruch time players.You are or you aren't and the Hawks are badly assembled. Thanks to BK what a frickin joke of a GM! Then again Scout, you have to realize that JJ actually creates a lot of opportunities for these kids to make big shots. His presence on the floor is sorely missed at the end of games. Smoove and a healthy Lue have all hit big shots . . off JJ assists . . in the past. The same would be true now, if JJ were playing. That's just what happens when your best player and possibly your best playmaker on the team, isn't able to play.

Why diss Shelden when he hardly played? I swear, it's like some of you guys actively root against players, instead of wanting them to get better. LOL . . you tankers should actually WANT Shelden to play as much as possible, if he's so bad.

Smoove is ice cold in the 2nd half. That's too bad.

And with "Turnover" Pachulia up to his usual tricks, why even have him in the game right now? Oh I forgot . . we're in tank mode. So you need all of your "game killers" out on the floor to make sure that we lose. Playing Solomon too long might actually win a game. Lord knows we don't want to do that. {/sarcasm}

Quote: Quote: They traded for AJ and are starting him, they are playing Lue, LOL Lue has hardly played for months and has sucked when he has played. He has been falling down or losing the ball at a ridiculous rate. AJ is 1-4 with 2 assists and 3 turnovers. Sure Zaza is starting but you did say you wanted Lo and speedy not playing at all and they haven't. You wanted Solomon to play more and he is. Not to mention our All-Star isn't playing. Ex, you might as well be talking to your remote control at home, when mentioning this to Walter. He's obviously never played an organized sport before. If he has, he'd know that athletes just flat out hate to lose. And the management knows that the continued development of the Joshs and Marvin are more vital to the success of this franchise, than some 84+% chance of not getting the #1 pick.

Quote: And also Young Solomon has been huge today... That kid is just pure energy. LOL . . and he gets a block on Duhon as I'm typing this. Even if he is undersized, Woody, or the next coach, need to seriously think about putting him in the starting lineup next season.

Johnny, at least you talk with some sense. We need to change some things, but it's far from the end of the world if we don't get either of those picks in the draft. LOL @ these other guys, worrying where the Hawks will finish. If we finish 3rd, we have an 84.4% chance of NOT getting that #1 pick. If we finish 5th, which is where we are now, we have a 91.2% chance of NOT getting the pick. In either case, the odds are very much against us not getting that pick. So why even worry about where we finish? You cheer for young guys playing their azz off, only to come up short, just so they possibly get another player to help them? I'm sure Marvin and Chill will be all smiles, if the Hawks land the #2 pick, and the Hawks take Durant . . possibly making both players obsolete for our future. LOL . . it's not like you can MAKE the Hawks lose. Hell, they're in such disarray right now, that they're losing, despite playing hard. And you clowns CHEER for that ish? You know what the NIGHTMARE scenario is for the Hawks in regards to the draft? That we indeed do finish with the 3rd worst record, and Indy finishes with the 11th worst record. And all of you will talk for WEEKS about how we're going to get 2 lottery picks out of the deal. Then the absurd comments about the Hawks will dominate the East next year, and possibly be playing for a championship in 2009. I say that because this is what you guys do. You're either all the way negative, or way too positive. There is no middle ground about the progression of this team. We're either the worst team in the NBA when we lose . . or we don't need JJ when we win. Then on May 22nd, the commish counts down the teams, in reverse order, of who will pick where in the lottery. "The 14th pick in the 2007 NBA draft . . the LA Clippers the 13th pick . . . . . . . . . . . . . . the New Orleans Hornets the 12th pick . . . . . . . . . . . . . . the Sacramento Kings" Then when the commish gets to the 11th pick, and SHOULD say the name of the Pacers, he says this instead . . "The 11th pick in the 2007 NBA Draft, goes to the New York Knicks." THAT'S WHEN YOU NEED TO WORRY!! Because it'll be at that time that you'll know that there is a distinct possiblity that we're going to lose both picks. Now, you're hoping that by the time the commish gets to #4, that he doesn't say this . . "The 4th pick in the 2007 NBA Draft, goes to the Phoenix Suns." Then Indy will get pick #3. At least the anti-tankers on this board have the HEART and GUTS to live with the possiblity of this exact team coming back, minus a few insignficant players. We're the ones that live in reality. Not the fantasy world that wants to see the Hawks lose 9 of their final 10 games, just to up some lottery percentage that has proven over the years to be a total crap shoot in the first place. The pro-tank crowd better come to the realization that this team may NOT get a player in the draft, that will upgrade us next year. I'd much rather see your opinions on what the team can do next year to bring in good/better players, than to toss a penny into the wishing well, and make wishes. But I guess you guys have no hope, and need to hope for something for the next 6 weeks. LOL . . it'll be hilarious if a guy like Oden, who actually LIKES TO LEARN, doesn't come out becuse he feels that his NBA game isn't ready yet. That kid has said plenty of times that he wants to be GREAT. What he does against Hibbert, may very well determine what he'll do/say about committing to the NBA draft in a few weeks.

(( singing like Aaliyah . . God rest her beautiful soul )) I'm typing up a 4-page letter And I enclosed it with a kiss And when I write him, he better . . get it on tiiiiiiimeeee

Quote: No, BK is by far worse than any GM in the league. The only draft pick he got right was the one that you aren't supposed to get right. All the picks that he SHOULD have gotten right (#6, #2, #5) he's blown. We already had 3 first round SFs AND Harrington, along with a high 2nd rounder in Donta when he selected Marvin. WHY? Marvin didn't even start and only averaged 11 ppg, and choked in big games, why make that pick? I can understand if he had a Durant/Melo freshman season, but he was nowhere NEAR that. Not to mention how bad the Shelden promise was. The JT trade was HORRIBLE. The AJ trade was HORRIBLE. The Walker trade was HORRIBLE (result of the horrible JT trade). All of his FA signings have turned out bad. Zaza isn't a bad deal, but it's not like he's made a difference, it's not exactly a good deal. All the capspace he's created has been destroyed by stupid signings/trades. We have Lue, AJ, Speedy, Lo, Slava making like 15 million, and none are making a difference. BK got one pick right by getting Smith (an OBVIOUS pick), but has blown the ones that were expected to be impact players. In my eyes, the only true positive of BK is the JJ trade. He's drafted over 10 players for the Hawks, and not ONE has been a PG or C. He has DIRECTLY passed the ROY 2 years in a row. He continues to support Woodson also, which really irks me. Although Woodson is bad, BK is MILES worse. We'd be a playoff team regardless if not for BK's time after time again draft/FA/trade squanders. There is no way possible I will give BK some slack. No way BK is worse than Kevin McHale or Isaiah Thomas. Mr. "I need to holla at Kevin Durant's mama and violate the NBA code of conduct for GMs" ( Ainge ) isn't a worldbeater either. Mitchy K. in La La Land can be put in that group as well. And I named those right off the top of my head. LOL . . there are a lot of bad GMs in this league, when you really look at the teams and the moves/draft picks that they've made. I say BK ranks somewhere between 17th and 25th. Somewhere close to middle of the road, to just above the bottom 5. If you think hard enough, I'm sure we can come up with some more who are worst, or at least on BK's level.

Quote: watch them play..thats how we should play OK . . go get us Baron Davis, and we can play like that. LOL . . people want this team to run. Who is going to lead the break? Salim may be the fastest guy on the team right now. You want Salim leading the break and making decisions? BTW, it's AMAZING what healthy bodies will do for a ballclub. Davis and Richardson have missed a big chunk of the season. Now that they are back, G-State looks a whole lot better. They're 8 - 4 since Davis' return, and making a big time push for that 8th seed. LOL . . and did Nellie really start Al at CENTER? Then again . . I did suggest that Woody start Salim and Solomon, along with Marvin, Chill, and Smoove. So that lineup would look a lot like that Golden St lineup. But instead of Nellie's 4-guard, 1-forward lineup . . we'd come with 4-forwards and 1-guard.

That's the logical explanation. But at some point, you have to give kids like Solomon and Salim extended minutes, and see if they can help you more than they hurt you. You know that Lo isn't going to give you much, other than occasional position defense . . maybe occasional is a bad word. Sporadic is probably the right word. You know that Lue isn't 100% healthy, so he isn't going to be the Lue that we saw at the beginning of the year. AJ is fine, but even he may need to take a backseat these days to Salim, and see if he serves the team better as Salim's backup. AJ should still probably play in crunch time over Salim though, even if Salim is the starter. To me, he has nothing to lose by playing the kids who can have a big impact on a game, one way or the other.

Woody says that he's going to play the guys who defend and rebound . . . yet, Solomon Jones got a DNP last night. The PG penetration is exactly the reason why we acquired Speedy Claxton, to slow down or stop all of that, so it doesn't surprise me that opposing PGs are exploiting that now. Woody isn't the worst coach in the league, because the players have to take some pride in what they do. But I always said that if Woody has one MAJOR flaw, is that he's stubborn. Stubborn to the point where he seems as if he doesn't think "outside the box" at times, and go with something radical to shake up the team. And his trigger finger to pull the youngsters out of games, is far more itchy, than with the vets who may give the same type of pizz poor effort. It's the same type of ish that did in Larry Brown with the Knicks last year. I would really like to see this lineup start for the rest of the year. G - Salim ( and no, that doesn't necessarily mean that Salim strictly plays the point. He can Chill can alternate initiating the offense. But him being in the game, especially without a legit perimeter threat on the team, does help us . . even if he gives up points on the other end. ) G - Chill F - Williams F - Smith F - Jones or Shelden ( doesn't matter to me which one starts. I just want to see one of them play 30 minutes a game. Let them take their lumps against the bigger post players, and see if they can make enough positive plays to help the ballclub. ) At least with that group, the effort and energy level will somewhat be there at all times. Even if they make mistakes, the effort on both ends of the floor should be there. And hopefully, the extended PT will help them in the long run. Last night's game was living proof that ALL of our kids need to continue to develop. Smoove, Chill, Marvin, Salim, the whole bunch. If you sit anybody for the rest of the year, sit the veterans who you know aren't going to get any better. But the kids are FAR from being developed. Roll with the kids, and see if they can win games. Play the vets with spot minutes. But I want to see those 5 play 30 - 35 minutes a night minimum. And I want them to play to win with that group.

Sorry Walter. While the rest of the "anti-tankers" may have jumped ship, I'll stay on board by myself, and man the ship. Here's the fundamental difference between a person like me, and a person like you. You believe that the ONLY HOPE for this franchise, is to land either Oden or Durant. I believe that the ONLY HOPE for this franchise, is if JJ, Smoove, Marvin and possibly Childress continue to develop into consistent players. And even if they develop, I understand that pieces will still have to be added in the future, to further solidify the team. Those pieces could be star players, or role players. We don't know yet. You believe that landing Oden is vital to building a championship team. I say that we have to get to playoff level first, before anybody even talks about winning titles, with or without Oden. The fact is this. Even if we're lucky enough to land Oden or Durant, it'll make no difference if guys like Smoove and Marvin are inconsistent, shooting 43% FG, and still making head-scratching plays that kill this team. Or guys like ZaZa still can't play defense when Oden gets in foul trouble. And that doesn't include the other inconsistent players we have on the squad. We have to continue to develop the kids we have here now, in order to be better in the future. We need a full team effort to win. Not just great play from a few guys. Of course I'd take Oden or Durant. But I'm fully prepared to see this team blossom without Oden, because I believe that they can. And personally, I just can't get excited about putting all of my hope into the Draft Lottery. I'd rather see Marvin, Chill and Smoove finish the season on a strong note . . AND . . get lucky in the draft . . than to see them fizzle out, with the coach limiting their minutes. But that's just me. This is obviously not the sentiment of the board. You've been accusing people all year of having no plan. The truth, is that your only plan is to HOPE that we get lucky in the draft. Other than that, you've been tossing out ridiculous propositions like obtaining Sene or Luke Ridnour, who isn't even the PG leader of his own team. Or you toss out a bunch of unrealistic trade proposals, like trying to get Andrew Bynum, when the Lakers aren't giving up the kid for nothing. Or that ridiculous Pierce/Jefferson for JJ/( insert name or draft pick here ) The plan for this team is simple. Develop the kids, and get them adequate support to help this team overall. And we can do that without "wishing upon a damn star" and hope the Tooth Fairy leave us some money under the pillow. ************* Let's say we fall off the face of the earth, and get that #3 spot record wise. When the lotto balls start to fall, and the 4 separate numbers come out, we already know that the team in the #3 slot has a 84.4% chance of NOT landing the first pick in the draft. That's set in stone. LOL . . I just can't get excited about that. But I guess for the rest of you guys, it'll keep you going until May 22nd. Since most of the pro-tank crowd have lost complete confidence in this team, this is the only thing you guys have to look forward to. Sorry if I refuse to be in that "wishing well" camp. And contrary to popular belief on this board, the Hawks, even at #3, do NOT have a 30%+ chance of landing a top 3 pick. After the first pick, which we know is set in stone at 84.4% failure, the 2nd and 3rd pick probabilities are not set in stone. That percentage is determined by what team gets the first pick. And that percentage for the #3 team NEVER gets higher than 29% favorable in either of the first three selections. For example. If the team with the worst record gets the #1 pick, the Hawks have a 79.2% chance of NOT getting the 2nd pick. That would be the best odds we could have for obtaining the 2nd pick. The equation for this is simple. - 1,000 lottery combo chances total for all 14 teams. - Worst record has 250 of thsoe chances. - 3rd worst record has 156 of those chances. If worst record gets the top pick, 250 of those chances come off the board for the 2nd pick ( even if one of the worst pick lottery combinations pop up again in the drawing process. They'll just discard that combo, and keep drawing until a combo that doesn't fit the team that got the #1 pick comes up ) 1,000 total chances - 250 worst team chances = 750 total chances for 2nd pick. 750 total chances - 156 chances for #3 team = 594 chances that we DON'T have to get that 2nd pick. 594 / 750 = 79.2% chance we don't get the pick. Here are the percentages for the rest of the picks. - if 2nd worst get the #1 pick - 80.5% chance not getting the pick - 4th worst - 82.3% - 5th worst - 82.9% - 6th worst - 83.4% - 7th worst - 83.7% . . . - 14th worst - 84.4% So after that is done, the final slot is chosen. If the lottery holds to form, and the 2 worst teams in the lottery get the top 2 picks, the Hawks still have a 71.7% chance of NOT landing the #3 pick And that's the best we can hope for in the 3rd slot. If someone were to tell any of you that Marvin would have a 71.7% chance of being a bust, the board would be all for trading him as quick as possible. You guys wouldn't even try to spin it as . . "well, Marvin has about a 30% chance of being good to great, so we should keep him." The sentiment would be totally different in that situation. But I understand where you guys are coming from. You have to HOPE for SOMETHING, I guess. And Oden is your Obi-Wan-Kenobi. Durant is your Luke Skyywalker. The fact is that the lottery is just that . . the lottery. It's the same process that see people buy $100 or $200 dollars worth of Mega Million tickets ( Powerball tickets for me in Tennessee ), and think they have a better shot than the guy or gal that buys a $3 quick pick. When it's all said and done, the only thing that matters is how the balls fall out. And no matter how many chances you have, you have NO CONTROL over how the balls fall out. It's the same process that saw Golden St leapfrog the T-Wolves, Clippers, Sixers, and Bullets in 1995. - saw the Raptors and Sixers leapfrog the Griz in 96 - saw the Griz get passed over AGAIN in 97, dropping from worst to 4th - saw the Clips drop from #2 to #4 in 99 - saw the Nets go from #6 to #1 in 00 - saw the Warriors go from #2 to #5 in 01 - saw the Rockets go from #5 to #1 in 02 - saw the Cavs, who deserved the pick, get the top pick in 03 . . how convienent for the Cavs, to get the home state prodigy, when the 7 of the previous 8 teams with the worst record DIDN'T get the top pick. - see Milwaukee go from #6 to #1 in 05 Hell, if you go by the 11 year sample of this current lottery, you almost want to be the #3 team . . or the #5 or #6 team, instead of the #1 or #2 team. Bottom line. The lottery is a crapshoot that you can't plan for. That's why a team like Philly, who could definitely use a Durant to team with Iggy, isn't worried about "tanking". They're just playing out the season, and letting the chips fall where they may. If it is the Hawks "destiny" to land the #1 or #2 spot, they will get one of those two positions. If not, which pretty much may be the scenario, you have to play the cards that are dealt to you, discard a few, and hope you get better cards to play with ( that you choose ). (( stepping off the podium )) Your turn Mr. Speaker.

Not true Hotlanta. I'm not going to waste a lot of typing on this, because I've never seen you post ANYTHING positive about this team. What injuries do, is disrupt the chemistry of a team. You've watched enough basketball to know this. Here's a number range for you Hot. 60 - 65 games. That represents the number of games that we've had 2 or more key players on this team not be available for us in a particular game. Teams, for the most part, just don't overcome those odds. Especially not young teams. -No posting scoring -No defense -No PG -No center -No standout rebounders -No desire -No Depth You know, that sounds a lot like the Dallas Mavericks of 2 years ago, when JT first came to the team. They did have 2 things that we don't have now. An all-NBA player, the desire to win because they had been in a few playoff wars, and a lot of depth. All of those other things you listed weren't a factor in the success of their team. Their defense is much better now, but they still lack a center, post scoring. The Hawks were way too competitive this year, even with the players out and all of our deficiencies, to make me believe that this team couldn't win 40 games this year. No way we're 27 - 44 with a 80% healthy Hawks squad for the year. We definitely need a banger on the inside, no doubt on that. But our team has shown that they can be efficient enough offensively and sound enough defensively, to compete with even the best teams this year. One more year of experience, and a few more moves, will continue to see this team improve. The glass is 5/8ths full for the Hawks . . not 5/8ths empty.

Our flaws as a team have a lot to do with youth. I know people get tired of hearing that, but it's the truth. Young teams just don't win in the NBA, because they do stupid things. The kids do a lot of great things. Then they'll do something that will completely drive you crazy. And when they make the mistake, they know that it's a bad one. But as far as the Memphis discussion, consider this: Vancouver/Memphis draft positions since 1995: 95: #6 - Big Country 96: #3 - Reef 97: #4 - Antonio Daniels 98: #2 - Mike Bibby 99: #2 - Steve Francis ( who pitched a hissy fit and got his trade wish ) 00: #2 - Stromile Swift 01: #3 ( from us in the Reef trade ) - Gasol . . and #6: Battier 02: #4 Drew Gooden ( enter Jerry West as GM ) - Makes a move to bring in solid veteran players like James Posey and Bonzi Wells to the team, who immeadiately helps them offensively and most importantly defensively. Makes some nice trades to get underachieving players off the squad. Hires Hubie Brown to coach during the 02-03 season. 03: #14 Marcus Banks 04: no draft pick ( I think they traded it away, but I forgot to whom. I think Utah got it, seeing that they had three 1st round picks that year. ) 05: #19 - Hakim Warrick 06: #24 - Kyle Lowry A lot of you forget that Memphis won 49 games last year, and had posted 3 consecutive seasons of over .500 basketball. But West wanted to remake the team to be a more athletic one, because they couldn't get out of the 1st round of the playoffs. The ONLY reason why they're in the situation that they're in now, is because of Gasol's injury situation. And the same goes for us. But the majority of fans of the Hawks put the injury situation low on the totem pole. LOL . . tell Milwaukee that they're season wasn't ruined because of injury. LOL . . just a mere 2 weeks ago, a lot of you were talking about how this team is playing so well without JJ, that he might be expendible. Now that we're losing with the kids, we're the worst team in the NBA . . LOL. This board is hilarious. Without all of the injuries to this team, the Hawks are a middle of the pack team that was very capable of winning close to 40 games this season . . even with all of our flaws and deficiencies. But you can't go through the amount of injuries that we went through, and expect everything to still be OK. And most importantly, you can't JUDGE this team on how good or bad they are, because of the injuries. This board bases their opinions on what they see on a daily basis, and not from a long term or rational perspective: - If Salim throws up 37 points in a game, he should be starting. He could even be our 2nd option. I guess it doesn't matter if he shoots 40% FG, he can still do it. - If Chill has a lackluster 2nd half, he's not aggressive enough, even if he does have an overall game in which he scores 20 points and grabs more than 10 boards and shoot 50% FG. - If Smoove commits 7 turnovers, he's a dumb player. Forget the fact that he may have 7 assists in that same game from the forward position. Conversely, he's our best player( even better than JJ ) despite that 5 of his 7 turnovers were passes or plays he had no business trying to make. - If the team wins without JJ, we don't need him. Forget that the team has won 21 games when JJ scores 29 points or more, we don't need him because our ball movement is so good without him. - If Solomon Jones gets 2 blocks in 7 minutes, he can be the future at center, even though he's undersized and a hack machine. - If Marvin doesn't look to put up 15 shots a game, or get his shot blocked trying to go to the hole, he has no heart and is a complete bust. He may be 4 - 8 FG in the game and playing team ball, but because he's not trying to be a superstar, he has no heart. Conversely, some say that Marvin still be a "superstar" in a few years, even if he has shown no indication of having a "superstar" mentality. These are the type of knee-jerk opinions that we see on a daily basis on this board. It's hilarious to me. These are the Hawks in a nutshell: - If healthy next year, our veteran PGs are going to help this team tremendously, because they all bring different things to the table. And if push comes to shove, you could play the guy that is playing the best during crunch time. And for you Speedy critics, don't count on Speedy posting the worst numbers of his career two years in a row. - JJ is the best player the Hawks have had since Dominique. This was his first year of being truly "the man". He'll be more than ready to handle the double and sometimes triple teams next season. - Smoove is establishing himself as a viable 2nd option to this team. A true 5-tool player. He will also improve next year. A nice 2nd fiddle to compliment JJ. - Childress is a poor man's combo version of Shawn Marion and Tayshawn Prince, for all of the little things he does. He is the Hawks version of Jose Oquendo ( for you longtime baseball fans, especially of the Cardinals ). - Marvin will be a solid #3 guy for us, sometimes even taking the #2 role when/if Smith has a bad game. Like Childress and Smith, he's a young player that is rapidly improving. If I were BK, I'm only looking to add two things to this team. One is obviously a big man who can play defense, and score somewhat efficiently. Not a guy that puts up big numbers, but just a guy who can come in and shoot over 50% FG and not let his man have a field day on the offensive end. We just need consistent efficiency from the 5 spot. ZaZa runs too hot and cold to be counted on as a starter. The 2nd thing I'd look to add, would be a slasher. It could be from the PG position or from the SG position. But we could use a player that can get to the hole just about anytime he wanted to. Most of your good teams have this kind of player, even if he's not a star player. Keep this team together. Don't make a move with the young forwards, unless you can bring an IMPACT player to the mix. Get a new coach if you feel that Woody has done all he can with this group. If Nique feels that he can make better personnel decisions than BK, consider letting him go too.

LOL . . he was in foul trouble. He didn't take the night off. Woody made the decision to go with Salim, instead of having Marvin in the game, because Salim was red hot. That was Marvin's first bad game in almost 2 months. It's funny. Anybody says anything remotely critical about Josh, and you Smoove fans come running to his defense. But you Smoove fans expect Marvin to be dang near perfect. How about viewing both guys with the same amount of objectivity? The fact is that this is not a one-man team. And we don't have enough talent on this team to just arbitrarily just get rid of somebody. And all of these players are works in progress. Even JJ can significantly improve his game. And both Smoove and Marvin need to be more consistent players. They don't have to be perfect, just consistent, and make better decisions.

LOL . . it's always a Smoove fan that tries to get rid of Marvin for whatever reason. Marvin and Smoove can easily co-exist. They didn't have a problem co-existing the game before, when Smoove and Marvin led the team in points. And you still need a bench. Childress is a very good guy to bring off the bench. While I'll definitely agree that we need a low post scorer and a guy who can bang on defense, Smoove should be the one trying to serve that purpose on this team, not Marvin or Childress. Marvin and Chill are better off playing the spot up jumper and slashing game. Both of them are more of the prototypical 3, than Smoove is. Smoove could benefit greatly, if he transform his game to have both inside and outside qualities. He could be a Rasheed Wallace type offensive player, if he works on his post game, and learns how to play position defense in the post. The problem with trading one of the kids, is that you just don't trade them for some scrub "banger", just to balance out the team. And it's not like those teams are willing to give up those types of players willingly anyway. I'm all for trading one of the kids in some package deal for a "star" player . . or a player who is very good at a need position. ( no . . guys like Luke Ridnour or Danny Fortson don't need to be in this discussion ). But you can't trade a player who could be a vital starter or bench player. Good NBA teams not only have balance, they have DEPTH. Trading Marvin or Chill, may balance out the team, but it may not make it better because we might just lose some depth. Best thing for this team is to tell Smoove to add 5 - 10 pounds to his frame, and be around the 250 lb mark at the start of next season. And send him to a big man's camp so that he can learn how to bang better. Make him watch tapes of Ben Wallace. Something. If Smoove played closer to the basket, he could be a consistent 11 rpg guy, strictly off of his athletic ability. He's the guy that should be getting offensive rebounds and putbacks, after one of the guards or SF misses a shot.

LOL @ Ex. If Dirk would post people up on the low block, he may could average 35 ppg. But because he wants to be a SG, he'll always limit how effective he can be offensively, even though he's a damn good offensive player. Troy is right when he says that basketball games are won inside-out. But the league is rapidly changing. If you can score from point blank range, that's just as good as scoring from the post. That's why the "points in the paint" stat is so critical for us. It doesn't matter how we score in the paint, just that we get point there, whether it be from post-ups or lay-ups off penetration. And that's the whole reason why Smith is better at the 4 right now. Because at the 4, he can get to the basket against the bigger PF's that he faces. Defensively, of course Smoove needs work. Offensively, he's maximizing his talent to the fullest. It's funny. Some people on this board had the audacity to complain about us giving up that bum Boris Diaw, because we didn't use him right, but Phoenix did. LOL . . last I checked, Boris wasn't a 4. But Phoenix even played that kid at the 5 many times last season. And what made Diaw so effective, was his ability to take big centers off the dribble and get to the basket . . or shoot the ball from mid-range, before the center could rotate to him. Defensively, Diaw was a complete liability against low post scorers. But offensively, playing Diaw at the 4 and 5 spots, is what worked for them. Now that he's playing more at the 3 and the 4, instead of at the 4 and 5, his offense has suffered because he can't score as easily against the 3's. He'll pass the ball off much more now. And one thing the board hasn't pointed out is this. Smoove has a better chance of learning how to effectively defend in the post, than he does learning how to effectively defend on the perimeter. In the post, all he needs to do is learn how to keep his man from getting too deep in the post, and play good ground defense once his man does get the ball. On the perimeter, this kid will constantly get beat off the dribble by a slasher, because Smoove's lateral quickness isn't the greatest. Chill is a much better lateral defender on the perimeter than Smoove. Send Smoove to big man camp. Have him watch LOTS OF FILM of Larry Nance. And he'll be a better player because of it. Last summer, I hoped that Smoove would model his game after Nance, who was a good on the ball defender, a great help shot blocker, and a guy who had the combo game of knocking down mid-range jumpers, grabbing offensive boards, and occasionally posting people up and scoring on them with a jump hook. And Nance was 6-10 bout only 205 - 215 lbs. He was a SF, without great SF skills, but talents that would let him excel at PF. Nance in his 2nd year in the league: 16.7 ppg 8.7 rpg 2.4 apg 2.6 blk 1.2 stls 55% FG 67% FT Smoove, so far this year: 15.5 ppg 8.4 rpg 3.2 apg 2.8 blk 1.0 stls 44% FG 68% FT And his FG% is low, mainly because he still tries to play that SG/SF role . . instead of that SF/PF role. Playing Smoove at the 4, will improve his FG%, possibly up to the 50% range in future years. He may reach 46% FG by the end of the year. If he keeps playing at the 4, he'll turn from the "Black AK-47" . . to the "modern-day Larry Nance". Keep the kid at the 4, and hope his career is on par, or a little better, than Nance's.

Quote: That's BS too JB. Just because there are a sea of PGs and one Sf doesn't mean you just pick the Sf. Nor do you make draft choices (that high) to prove a point to a player. The point here is very simple: It's definitely very difficult to find good PGs and Centers in this league. We had an opportunity and we picked a player for which we had 5 others who could play the same position. That makes BK dumb. Very true. But with that logic, the Hawks would pass on Kevin Durant, and take a guy like Mike Conley Jr or Acie Law IV instead, because they need a PG more than they need an athletic scorer. But do the Hawks pass on Durant, just because they have Marvin, Smoove, and Chill in the mix right now? I don't think so. We take Durant, and we STILL would need a PG. But do you pass on a talent like that, in order to take a need player? This board is funny like that. When we go with the "potential and the talent", BK gets criticized because everyone knew that we needed a PG. When he goes with the "need player", BK gets criticized, because everybody wanted the guy or guys with talent, even though they didn't play a position that we were weak at. He went for the potential star talent, when we didn't have a bonafide star on the team. He went for need talent, when we had a star and a few more potential star players on the squad. LOL . . but hindsight says that he should've did everything in reverse. Hindsight is great for disgruntled fans. GMs in this league are terrified of missing out on a young player who have "supposedly" great potential. They don't want to miss out in the next Kobe, T-Mac, LeBron, Garnett, or Stoudamire, just because they're young and raw. The safer, more sound picks, usually get passed up. Sometimes the GM is right. Sometimes they're wrong. When they make mistakes, but the player is talented, he can be used as trade bait in order to get the need player. For us, that player may be Marvin, or Chill, or Shelden that is dealt. But we had to see which guy had the most potential, instead of putting our future in just 2 of those guys, and hoping they pan out. Evaulate them for a few years, and when your team gets good enough to be a playoff team, but needs extra help, deal one of them to get the "need player".

Troy . . you also know that injuries can flat out destroy the chemistry of a ballclub . . if you played basketball. I played the game too, and not just at the rec centers. When you have a bunch of young players on your team, they more than likely won't win because of the dumb mistakes that they make. Just look at Georgia Tech. Surely Tech's coach isn't an idiot, but his ballclub sure played dumb in the tournament, even though from a talent standpoint, they were far superior than UNLV. But when you have young players, they sometimes do what they want to do, and not what is best for the team. The same applies in the NBA. As far as Salim goes, he was actually playing well in this stretch with JJ out. Take away the 1st half of the Washington game, in which he shot like three 3's, missed another shot and played like the "Mason" . . as Ex likes to call him . . . Salim is shooting close to 47% FG . . over 90% FTs . . and has a 2 to 1 assist to turnover ratio . . in the past 8 games. Even last night, he came into a situation in which the Hawks needed quick offense, so he started to revert back to his "Mason" personna. When he plays under control, Salim has been pretty good the past 7+ games.

Quote: Quote: Maybe you was watching Doleac outwork Zaza or Lo keep Shaq at bay in the 4th and then you blinked, but even though Miami didn't exploit it a lot (why would you need to when you have the layup drill going) but anytime Haslem wanted to score, he could easily get position on Smoove. My reference is of the fact that Smoove often gives up Posting position. I don't think Smoove is doomed, I just think that it's a part of his game that is missing. If you put the two side by side, Shelden is a much better positional defender than Smoove. It may take us sending Smoove to a big man camp for the next few years if you want him to really be a PF. I would also try to get Smoove some time with Clifford Ray.. Hell all of our big men. Ok fair enough...but again you said Haslem had his way...with 10pts? 5 for 10 shooting? I saw the game. Haslem made an impact with hustle and drawing charges, not offensively. Its ok if you have a point to express, but you don't have to go overboard to validate it. He does have things to work on. We all know that. Smoove's biggest problem, both offensively and defensively is trying to do everybody elses job. But who's fault is this really? Is it his fault he is both the best SF and PF on the team? He's the 4, only because he defends it. We can all agree on something...It's time for this franchise to make a decision. If Smoove is your 4 of the future, send him to the big man camps you suggested. If not, its time to clear out some bodies. What? Someone exaggerated on the board, in order to prove their point? Noooooooooooo. Not on this board . . LOL. Good post HnJ. And yes, Smoove should go to a big man's camp, and develop at least one "go-to" post move, and learn how to play position defense better. But like I said in my previous post. Dirk, Lamar, and Shawn aren't true 4's either. Yet, they play the position very well, especially on the offensive end. LOL @ Smoove isn't a 4. Well how many SF's have you ever seen average 20 ppg . . 9 rebs . . and over 3 blocks for the month? The only one who I can think of, who puts up those numbers from the combo 3/4 position like Smoove plays . . is Shawn Marion. Nice to see the kid playing like him, with even better offensive skills.