TheNorthCydeRises

Quote: Levenson has told me explicitly that BK is not handicapped by the situation - he's free to make any deal. Knowing that - this is what he get? I know we don't know exactly who was available to Billy, and what price, but come on! This move wreaks of appeasment on all fronts - but it's actually much worse. We just lost cap space for another PG - an average distributor at best - who fits in nicely with our other bench-worthy ones. I don't understand any of you who think this was a good move - that's letting management off the hook, when they don't deserve it. But we didn't lose cap space. We obtained a contract that can be tossed in to make the numbers work. LOL . . you guys act like AJ is making 6 million or so. He's not even making 3 million. AJ becomes the type of contract that you can add in a deal, with players like a ZaZa, Lue, and Lorenzen, to make a move. All have contracts that expire next year. And that's an asset a team can use, to get a good, but disgruntled player. Or maybe that team wants to go in another direction, and is willing to trade a good player, obtain cap space for the summer of 2008, and rebuild the team from there. Gotta look at the situation from all angles.

Jerry . . I read some of your post over the last few days. You made some good points as well. The problem with most fans, is that they make decisions based on emotion. When you make decisions because of emotion, it'll almost always be the wrong one. Even in life, you can't make too many decision based on sheer emotion. Situation . . buy that new 52" Plasma TV . . or get that new Washer/Dryer that your wife has been begging you to get. Emotion: You really LOVE THAT TV so you buy the TV, and say forget what the wifey wants. I'll get it for her later. Result: You cause a serious argument to the point that she constantly hangs that TV over your head as the reason why you don't care about her feelings. You think things out. Weight the situation. Then make your decision. - you don't give a 1st round pick for a bum like Ridnour who got his spot taken by a perennial backup PG that can't shoot like Earl Watson. Somebody a few nights ago mentioned how "great" Ridnour was playing against Memphis. ( 15 pts . . 12 assists . . 5 steals ) That's a damn impressive game. Then you look at what Speedy did against Memphis back in December ( 19 pts . . 11 assists . . 3 steals ). You can say that both of these guys had one of their top 5 best games of the year against Memphis. But overall, both guys have been lackluster. So which is it? Is Luke and Speedy great PGs . . or are they just great PGs against Memphis? - you don't trade for an aging PG like Mike Bibby and give up major assets to our team, when he's having the worst year shooting wise of his career, and has never been a "table-setter" type PG. This isn't 2001, when he was knocking down big shots like a Sam Cassell. - you don't give Portland a 1st round pick or one of our young forwards, for one of their mediocre centers. If they were any good, Portland would be much better than what they are. Some Squawkers are sane. Most are irrational and impatient. It's important for this franchise to make the RIGHT move when they trade off one of these kids, instead of making a move just to fill a position with a mediocre player. You sign mediocre talent in free agency. You trade for big time talent, if you're trading off one or more of the kids.

Quote: This trade for AJ has turned me against BK. I have been for him up until this point, but this trade makes absolutely NO SENSE AT ALL! Geez. I am about to cry. -The trade doesn't get us into the playoffs -We lose our 2nd round pick -We lose $2.5 million against the cap because AJ's contract doesn't expire. -Speedy is still in town. BK has about 59 minutes to make another trade and rectify this. WTF is he thinking? BK said last night that whatever deal he made, had to make sense. Trading a 1st round pick for a guy like Ridnour, doesn't make sense . . especially in this very "deep" draft. So unless Seattle was willing just to dump Ridnour for garbage, you don't do that deal. Cleveland needs a PG, but you don't see them going after Ridnour either. That shows you what his true value is around the league. Now, to address your points: - The trade doesn't get us into the playoffs. Of course it doesn't . . unless Lue and Speedy can get a little more healthy. Squawkers need to start looking at our PG issue, in a different light. NO, we don't have that star or floor leader at PG here. But what we do have now, are 4 guys who bring very different things to the table. * Claxton - defensive specialist * Lue - offensive specialist * Johnson - steady all-around PG that can score and play D * Childress - change of pace, tall scoring PG that can create matchup problems on the offensive end Until we actually get a guy here who can man the point for 30 minutes a game, and play both offense and defense, the PG situation here will be a 4-headed monster. Now, it's up to Woody to somehow make that work. AJ will give Woody a chance to play Speedy whenever he needs him, instead of forcing him to play extended minutes . . something he obviously can't do right now. When Lue comes back, that'll give him another option to put at the PG. I could see a situation in which AJ, Speedy, and Lue split about 40 minutes a game at the PG, while Chill will play the other 8 minutes. LOL . . it's far from perfect, but it's better than giving those 8 minutes at the beginning of games to Ivey. - We lose our 2nd round pick. And that isn't a big deal at all. AJ right now has much more value than a 2nd round pick, and I'll tell you why in the next point. But most teams aren't going to find an impact player, or even a decent player with a 2nd round pick. And the Hawks don't need any more "project" type picks. They need solid guys who can play. And veteran players are usually the way to go. I'd part with a 2nd round pick every year, if it would bring me a quality veteran to play alongside these kids. - We lose 2.5 million against the cap, because AJ's contract doesn't expire. And that's a GOOD THING. And here's exactly why AJ is much more valuable to us, than that 2nd round pick. He's the type of contract we can use in a trade, to possibly get that big upgrade at Center or at PG here. People see that 2.5 million, and think that it's a waste. I see that 2.5 million, as a possible throw-in, to get some disgruntled veteran player who has worn out his welcome with his old team. Bumpy, up until now, we'd have to trade Marvin or Childress, along with guys like Lue, ZaZa, etc, to make a deal with some team willing to unload one of their better players. Now, we can use AJ in any filler deal, to get us that player, without maybe giving up Chill or Marvin. That extra 2.5 or so million is an asset, not a liability. That extra money isn't going to prohibit us from signing any new talent. It may actually help us trade for it during the summer. The fact that AJ will be in his last year of his contract NEXT YEAR, is the asset. - Speedy is still in town. And that's not a bad thing either. Why is it that JJ, Smoove, Chill, Lue, and Marvin all get a pass when they were injured. But when Speedy is injured, people act like he's going to play like that his entire career here? I've seen Speedy play a lot throughout his career, and the guy is just not right. He's hurting. If the Hawks were completely out of it, they'd probably shut him down for the year. But he wants to play and contribute any way he can. Same goes for Lue. It's just bad luck on our part that both of these guys are hurting at the same time. But when healthy, both of these guys can be assets to this team. But we may not see the full potential this year, which drives the fans crazy.

LOL . . now the board is wanting Beno? You guys are joking right? What makes any of you think that Beno is better than AJ? I mean, the Spurs brought in JACQUE VAUGHN to take his spot. Let me say that again . . JACQUE VAUGHN. And why? Beacuse Beno is GARBAGE as well. And he can't play a lick of defense. And I guess people forgot how Beno completely melted down in the playoffs last year. So ask yourselves this Squawkers. How does a proven non-scoring PG like JACQUE VAUGHN get 23 minutes last night and Beno gets 1 whole minute of PT, when it was obvious that Tony Parker was hurting. If Beno is an adequate replacement or an upgrade over anything we have here ( even Ivey ), why can't that man get more PT than friggin JACQUE VAUGHN? Some of you guys should be on Comedy Central. I think Lascar and the others are right. Some of you just while like spoiled teenagers about EVERYTHING, just because the organization doesn't do what YOU want them to do. LOL . . if it were up to some of you guys, Luke Ridnhour and Beno Udrih would be our new PGs.

Quote: There are plenty of teams that would move before us namely NOK, Memphis and Sacramento Actually, don't be surprised to see the Sonics move to Vegas . . if they don't move to OK City after the Hornets go back to N.O. next season.

Having said that, I wouldn't be against bringing Luke here. But it would be a deal like Salim + 2nd round pick for Luke. That's the max I'd do for a PG like that. Luke is essentially Tyronn Lue, with better passing skills. If you interchange he and Speedy at the PG, that would be a good contrast to bring in and out of a game. Luke could play when we have part of our 2nd unit in, and try to up the tempo a bit. Speedy would start and finish games, to make sure we're sound on defense and get possible stops at the end. Luke is by far having his best shooting year of his career this year. Speedy is by far having his worst shooting career this year. But when you look at both of these PGs, they both are more likely to shoot in the low 40% range, and get you around 5 - 6 assists a game. So what is more likely to happen? Luke becoming a better defender . . or Speedy increasing his FG% to where it should be? Diesel said this a few weeks back, and I'll reinterate it. Once Speedy gets back to his old self, he's going to make everybody forget about needing a PG here . . at least a starting PG. We'll still need a quality backup, but Speedy will be entrenched as our starter. Prediction: In the 2nd half of this season, Speedy will shoot between 43 - 45% FG and average around 6 assists or more. By the way, you can tell that a player isn't right, by looking at something like FT%. Good FT shooters just don't all of a sudden forget how to shoot FTs. Coming into this season, Speedy was close to a 78% FT shooter. This season, he's shooting 55% FT. When I see something like that, that lets me know that a guy isn't quite right. When he does get right, you'll see all of his numbers rise, and the Hawks will be a better team because of it.

Quote: He avr. the same amount of points a game as Tyrone Lue even though Lue plays less minutes. He only avr. .5 more assist a game than Speedy and Speedy plays less minutes. Thats not an upgrade worth giving up a 1st round pick in a deep draft in my book. I mean Speedy has been playing hurt and still gets as many assist as Luke and Speedy at least can defend. Luke couldnt defend 50% of the people who post on this board and Im being very serious about that. He doesnt even make an effort. Some of you guys mention him in the same breath with Nash or a young Nash in the making. I really doubt that. That whole Ridnhour thread is living proof why fans are just fans, and not GMs. LOL @ giving up a defensive PG like Speedy AND a freakin 1st round pick . . for a guy who can't even get the bulk of the minutes over Earl friggin Watson. If anything, it proves that Luke isn't a leader at the PG position, if he lets Earl take his spot like that. Earl plays less minutes, but averages more assists than Luke. Yet, Luke is supposed to be the "answer" here? LOL. LOL @ Luke being a "poor man's Steve Nash". Please. Luke is like a "poor man's Jason Williams" ( the White Chocolate version ).

People also forget how many shots JJ has hit with under 20 seconds . . only to see the Hawks being unable to defend on the other end and see the other team score. Then, they expect JJ to bail the team out a 2nd time, with like 2 - 3 seconds left on the clock. He's also had a good number of shots that have tied games at the end. I know Ex may do a game log, but let just give 2 examples of what I'm talking about, where a play JJ made should've won the game for us, even if he didn't hit the game winner: Seattle ( loss ) - JJ makes lay-up to put us up 1. Ray Allen makes lay-up with 2 seconds left to put them up 1. JJ missses a 3 pointer that he only has time to catch and shoot. LOL . . I guess that means that JJ isn't clutch, seeing that he missed the last 3. But his lay-up should've won the game in the first place. Denver ( win ) - A double-teamed JJ finds Shelden in the paint, who makes a good move to get fouled. Shelden hits the 2 FTs and we win the game. JJ didn't get an assist, but his ability to find Shelden essentially won the game for us. Without JJ, this team wouldn't have 8 wins right now . . if that.

Quote: Quote: What would be your reaction? That leaves a trade, which isn't a bad option considering there is NO WAY IN HELL we'll manage to keep all of our forward prospects. Might as well trade 1 or 2, commit to and (eventually) resign the others, and supplement our team with a mid-1st, the Jeremy Rich. guy I like, and other small pieces. Wrong again Walter. - Marvin isn't going ANYWHERE . . unless that trade nets us a very good PG or a very good C . . things that most teams aren't willing to part with. He's locked in through the 08 - 09 season at least. Even if he doesn't turn into a star, he'd be a very good complimentary piece to have on this team. The only way this guy gets traded, is if he regresses tremendously next season, or if a very good PG becomes disgruntled with his current team, and asks to be traded. Otherwise, Marvin is almost guaranteed to be a Hawk for the next 2.5 years. - Re-sign Smoove by the middle of next season . . possibly locking him up for a deal somewhere in the 55 - 60 million range, over the next 5 years. That would be my first offer to Smoove, to try to deter anybody from making an offer to him other than a MAX deal. And if someone does offer him the MAX, the Hawks should immeadiately match it, locking Smoove in for another 5 - 6 years. Unless Smoove wants to leave ATL and be "the man" by himself, and not the 2nd star on this team, he's not going anywhere either. - Chill could possibly be traded, but he's unlikely to get a big time RFA offer from a team needing a SF. Therefore, the Hawks could re-sign Chill for a deal somewhere around 6 - 7 million per year for 5 or 6 years . . or maybe less. It's like I told you guys at the beginning of the season, Chill, Marvin, and Smoove will ALL play at least 30 minutes a game. I don't see that changing in the near future, even if we do add a PG or if Speedy starts playing better. The versatility of these three guys allows each of them to be on the court doing different things at different times. - Shelden can be locked in through the 2010 season . . or he could be let go at the end of the 2008 season. If he becomes that solid player to back up our frontline people, it's unlikely the Hawks will deal him either. If not, the Hawks have the option to let him go as early as the summer of 2008. But it's a very good possibility that all four of these guys can stay with this team for at least the next 2.5 years. Now, when Marvin's next contract comes up in 2009, that may be a different story. We may have to deal him, or guys like Chill and Shelden, to make room for Marvin's big contract, depending on how good of a player Marvin is at that time. Then we'll have to deal with the BIG ISSUE . . re-signing JJ, if need be. By that time, this team may be willing to spend over the cap, if we have a team that is capable of contending for the East title. And I know people have already given up on Speedy, but they shouldn't. If Speedy can ever get healthy, you'll see a more efficient player playing the PG, and that won't even be an issue anymore. After the 2008 season, the guys that probably won't be here, are ZaZa, Lue, Ren, Ivey and Salim. By that time, we'll have Indy's draft pick from this year and the mid 2nd round pick . . and our 1st round pick from the 2008 draft to add to the team, plus maybe one or two FA big men to add to the team. So your 2008 - 09 Hawks could very well look like this: G - Speedy G - JJ F - Marvin F - Smoove C - Big man FA pick up ( Magloire? . . who will be overpaid by whomever obtains his services, unless he goes to a team on the cheap, and just wants to win a title. ) G/F - Childress ( 6th man . . and maybe even a candidate for 6th Man of the Year by this time. ) G - 2007 or 08 Draft pick ( Acie Law - Texas A&M? . . the more I watch this kid, the more I like him. And he's not afraid to take and make a big shot. He's not a pure PG though, but a very good scoring PG. ) G - FA pick up ( Chris Duhon? . . it'll be interesting to see what kind of money he commands in the summer of 2008. A team may be able to get him for around 4 million per. ) F - Shelden F - Solomon F/C - 07 or 08 Draft Pick ( Randolph Morris - Kentucky? . . depending on how high or low his stock rises or drops. If he comes out this year, he may be a mid-1st round pick. If he comes out in 2008, he may go higher. ) C - Free Agent pick up ( Kwame Brown? . . He'll probably get a 4 year deal at about 6 - 7 million per, in the summer of 2008. Maybe this will be the time to go after Kwame . . Or it'll be some stiff to fill the bench. ) With Chill being able to play 3 positions on this team, he may inherit the role as the backup PG, especially if Speedy plays like he's capable of playing. Another PG might be drafted in the coming years, to play spot minutes or be groomed to eventually take over for Speedy. Another big man will definitely be drafted. And we'll be able to get a few free agents in here, to possibly help the core guys out. The one thing we don't need to do, is trade one of our forwards, for a mediocre center or PG. We can just as easily find one in the draft or in free agency . . if BK wants one.

Quote: What would be your reaction? But we didn't, so this is a moot point. LOL . . why even start this thread?

Quote: Why do people fall into the trap of replying to post, such as TroyMcClure's last post. How does that deserve 25 replies. ? (In reference to: Tranfer of anger post by Troy McClure) There are several on this board who deserve to be ignored. Let's ignore these post. They are not worth the thought and time it takes to respond. Idiots attract other idiots. Please don't let this board be over run by these type of post. If we fall into the trap and respond to senseless post from people who obiviosly have issues it simple attracts more bad post. We attract what we think and portray. Good, quality post attract good, quality responses. Crappy post attract....well, alot more crap. (Ya' get what I'm sayin' ? I couldn't agree more coach. When I saw his initial post, and the way he worded things, I knew that he was just looking for some attention. If anything, Graymule is the Anti-Troy. The balance that this negative board needs at times. Keep doing your thing Gray. There are a lot of strong opinions on this board, and I guess we can't help ourselves to respond, no matter what the topic.

I purposely gave you a few days to see if you'd correct yourself in that whole Westidiot discussion the board had over the weekend. But you didn't. You came at me with a "learn to do REAL REASEARCH" blast, citing a supposed mistake I'd made about Westhead and talking about how Wikipedia isn't fact. http://www.hawksquawk.net/forums/showflat....=&fpart=#195636 1) You should know by now that when I make an argument, whether if you or the board agrees with it or not, the things that I cite, especially when it comes to numbers, are FACTUAL. But everybody makes mistakes, and I'm not prone to making one every now and then. Which leads me to . . 2) You're actually the one who needs to do REAL RESEARCH!. LOL @ trying to call me out about my lack of research skills. You better look in the mirror playa. This is the link that you gave when you stated that Denver only gave up 114 ppg in 1991. http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/DEN/1991.html Only one problem with that buddy. That 114 number was their DEFENSIVE RATING according to basketball-reference.com, not how many PPG that they gave up. But yet, you tried to pass that off as their ppg number, to make your "argument" about Westidiot better. LOL . . all you had to do is scroll down one more section on that page, to the Team and Opponents Statistics . . and you'd EASILY see that Denver gave up 130.8 ppg that season. And they let teams shoot well over 50% FG against them. I've told you before. If you want to cite a good NBA statistics website, use databasebasketball.com, not basketball-reference.com. The DBB site is much more thorough in their statistics and they give you a few more features that B-R doesn't. If you had, you wouldn't have made a careless mistake like that. I'm a detailed-oriented person . . almost to a fault. But that quality keeps me from making few mistakes, when it comes to citing things. But like I said, even I'm not error-free all the time either. http://databasebasketball.com/teams/teamye...EN&lg=n&yr=1990 You did get the ppg total ( 108 ) correct when talking about the 91 - 92 Nugget team. At least you paid attention to detail that time. And by the way, it was the 90 - 91 . . and 91 - 92 seasons that Westhead coached the Nuggets . . in case that wasn't clearly stated in that other thread. You know why they were a better defensive team in 91 - 92? Because Denver actually added some people who could play defense ( Mutumbo and Mark Macon ), and Westidiot actually started to abandon that idiotic philosophy of chucking and ducking. He actually ran offense through Dikembe at times. It's amazing, but Dik actually had his most field goal and free throw attempts in a season under Westhead . . the total opposite of his philosophy. They went from a team that saw Michael Adams alone take damn near 570 threes by himself, to a team that took just a little over 400 threes total. In other words, Westidiot let go of that philosophy, and actually tried to do like a regular coach. The Nuggets let go of their top 3 scorers from the previous season . . Adams - 26 ppg, Woolridge - 25 ppg, and Walter Davis - 19 ppg . . and actually got a little better as a team. So you're 1/2 right Diesel. With better personnel, he did make a little improvement. But he had to scrap his idiotic run and gun system, and get rid of non-defense playing players to do it. Next time, just make sure you've dotted all of your "i's" and crossed all of your "t's", before you call somebody out about their "lack of research". ( exhale ) . . that feels better.

Quote: Pat Riley did absolutely nothing that Westhead didn't do. Pat Riley just came in and stroked his players egos... That's it. The Lakers were not a great defensive team ever... You see the fingerprint of Westhead all over showtime.. .it's undeniable. If you want to know how Riley really coached, look at what he did when he left LAL. Classic NY Knick basketball. Get some playground bullies like Mason and Oakley.. let them intimidate everybody.. Go to Miami... Play the same style of basketball.. that the previous coach played.. only bring in Lonzo... However, for as successful as Showtime was, Riley has never tried to do it anywhere else... Thats because he's not the inventor of Showtime. LOL @ Diesel. It's a reason why Paul Westidiot hasn't been able to secure another NBA coaching gig after the Denver debacle. That style is highly flawed and just doesn't work on the NBA level . . unless you do have a superstar PG who can find people anywhere on the court and have guys who can conistently knock down open jumpers. You better give Magic most of the credit for "Showtime", than Westidiot. He was the catalyst for the style of play that the Lakers played. Without him, there is no "Showtime". But even that Laker team didn't just run and gun all over the place. That Laker team got a ton of easy shots mainly because they had an unstoppable force in the middle with Kareem, and they had a young PG who had an uncanny knack for running controlled fast breaks and almost always turned into points. The Lakers back in their 79 - 80 Championship year, only made 20 threes the entire year. Kareem skyhooked people to death. Jamaal Wilkes had the awkward, but money mid-range jumper. Norm Nixon would penetrate at will and score, or dish in the halfcourt offense. And Magic would do the same and dazzle people on the fast break. In 78 - 79 . . before Westidiot and Magic, the Lakers averaged 113 ppg and shot 52% FG In 79 - 80 . . when Westidiot and Magic came abord, the Lakers averaged 115 ppg and shot 53% FG. And Magic upped his game as the season wore on that year, becoming damn near a dominant force by the time the playoffs came around. It wasn't Westidiot that made the Lakers great, it was Magic and Kareem that made them great, along with the other great players they already had there. Magic was just the missing piece. Magic replaced a nice scoring SF in Adreian Dantley, who averaged 17 ppg and shot over 50% FG in 78 - 79. Magic, who was a PG with SF size, averaged 18 ppg, almost 8 rebs, and a little over 7 assists. That team became more efficient with Magic. And it had very little to do with Westidiot. LOL . . I tell you exactly what would happen if Westhead became the coach of the Hawks. He'd immeadiately insert Salim Stoudamire into the starting lineup, because he's are the type of player that he prefers to play in his system. Actually, that may not be as bad as it seems, because I wouldn't be against Salim starting games ( but playing only in a role like Ivey's, and only keeping him in if he were scoring ). But Westidiot would give Salim free reign to take any open shot he gets, which would be suicide for this team. I could easily see a situation where JJ would still be the go-to-guy, but Salim would be 2nd in FG attempts. Smoove, Chill, and Marvin would still get theirs. But Salim would definitely be a focal point in Westidiot's system. And how do I know that he'd love Salim? Because when he coached the Nuggets from 90 - 92, Michael Adams, a 5-10 PG who was really a shooting guard, took 564 three pointers that year. I'm not quite sure, but I think that's still an NBA record for 3 point attempts. That Nugget team averaged almost 120 a game. But they gave up 130 a game . . an NBA record. You'd see no Royal Ivey in the game if Westhead were here. It'll be Salim at the point, with JJ, Chill, Marvin, and probably Smoove playing the 5. Speedy would be a defensive specialist, who'd have the green light to shoot anytime he wanted, which would also be suicide for this team. ZaZa would come off the bench, and have the green light at all times as well, another suicidal move. Lue would see time too. Solomon Jones would probably play before Shelden, because Solomon can run. But Westidiot would LOVE Salim. He's a Michael Adams clone, if I ever saw one. The emphasis would be to run as much as possible, and not worry about playing great defense. We'd be a much more entertaining team to watch, but an absolutely HORRIBLE defensive team. Imagine how many times Smoove would be out of position to play defense in that system. Even with his great closing speed, you can't ask him to run the floor on offense, then run right back on defense to erase mistakes. Diesel, you say that Westidiot's system "tires his opponent out". History says that his system only gives his opponent easy looks at the basket. And if you're getting easy looks, a team could play their 9th - 12th guys, and still not lose much in the scoring department. LOL . . it's a nightmare that I never want to see happen here. I'm all for this team running . . . in CONTROLLED spurts . . and ONLY if we forced a turnover or got a long rebound. But to let these guys run, just for the sake of running, would be detrimental to this team. KB is right. If people want this team to run . . let their role model be the Sonics teams of the mid 90s. But even that team had a pretty good low post scorer ( Kemp ) and a damn good defensive PG ( Payton ) who controlled everything for them. This team is probably a better defensive ballclub ( when healthy ), than a running ballclub ( when healthy ). If we had a defensive center here, who just rebounded and played good defense, we'd probably be a top 10 defensive team right now . . even if that center didn't provide any offense. The vast majority of the time, the Hawks win games because they play good defense, not because they're great offensively. When they don't play good defense, it almost doesn't matter how we play offensively. Shoot, we've lost plenty of games in the past 2 years, in which we've shot well over 50% FG.

Quote: What I will say about Phoenix is that we fit the mold of a team that can play with them. I didn't include them in the teams of games we will win, but I don't think that they have a matchup advantage over us either. Who knows, if they force us to run, we may win! My point is that there is a recipe for teams that I am certain will give us a very hard time. It has nothing to do with wins or losses, it's all about matchups. Matchup is the answer to the question why does Phoenix have such a hard time against Utah and Dallas. They just don't understand, Diesel. Records mean a lot, but how you match up with a team means a lot more. The average fan looks at the won/loss column, and think there is no way that a losing team can get it done. What Hawks fans need to come to grips with, is that we're a middle of the road NBA team, no matter what our record says we are. The injuries in December that caused all of that losing, are NOT who the Hawks really are. We're a .500 ballclub, capable of beating . . or losing . . to anybody on any particular night. That's why Hawks fans should always take these games one game at a time.

Quote: That is that the Hawks are built to run. Woodson is certainly not an up tempo coach but when we play teams that run like the Suns or the Warriors we play at their pace and the results speak volumes about how this team should play every night. We still are desperate for a PG, a passing and running PG. A guy like TJ Ford, who isn't elite, but would help ignite this team. TJ is not available but there are PGs out there that can play up tempo and get the ball into places where guys are in a position to finish. Speedy is not the PG we need as he isn't a good passing PG and never has been. Nor is T-Lue. BK seems to not consider the style we play when he makes his player acquisitions...its all by the seast of his pants. I loved last nights win because it shows what we can do when we play to our strengths. I fear that Woody returns to the real Woody again after the GS game and that is a shame. BK; Please get us a REAL PG for once! So who are we to believe? Posters on Hawksquawk, who think that this should be a running ballclub, even if we don't have PGs healthy enough to run and guys who aren't consistent finishers if they don't have a clear path to the hole? Or our star SG himself, who said this to Sandy Williams right before the game . . ( paraphrasing ) "We have to just play our game, and not get caught up in what they do. We're not built to run." While the win last night was great, a lot of you are still failing to realize what exactly went on in that game, and why we looked good when we did run the ball. 1) When you take a lot of jumpers, and miss them, a team can capitalize off of those misses . . by running. The Phoenix system, while great, has a major flaw to it. Their flaw is that they'll let you back in the game, because they encourage everyone on the floor to take open jumpers . . even guys who have no business shooting the ball. So when Phoenix misses 4 - 5 jumpers in a row, it allows a team to grab long rebounds and take advantage of them by running. Even when they shoot a high percentage from the field, they'll have 2 - 3 minute lulls in which they can't hit anything . . . and stretches in games when they can't miss. And that's exactly what happened last night. 2) Phoenix is a HORRIBLE transition defensive team. The same reason why the Hawks looked good against Golden St a few games back when they ran, is the same reason why they looked good in Phoenix last night. If you watch most of Phoenix's games, their opponent almost always look good running the ball, even if that's not they're style. And part of that is because of the way they attack the offensive glass. Marion always crashes the boards. So when a long rebound happens, the opportunity to run is almost always there, because the only person back is the PG or a guy like Raja Bell. Our running game looks good against teams that can't play transition defense. We have to pick and choose when to run. We're not a running team though. And our guys aren't the best finishers in the world on the break, if someone is in their way. The running game will look real good Sunday night against the Warriors, win or lose. That same running game won't look so hot against Utah, because they actually play defense. It won't be a philosophy change by Woody. It'll just be a result of better defense by Utah.

Quote: playing Sg for Portland. Man, he'd make a lousy Pg for us next to JJ. Lousy I tell you. I'm thankful we have SW .5 BPG over Roy's 20 PPG, 6 APG, 3 RPG, and 1 SPG. Roy makes fools of all of you "he can't play Pg" crowd. He might not play it in Portland with Jack and Sergio, both better than Speedy IMHO, but he DAMN sure could and he and JJ would [censored] own opposing teams' backcourts. W It's obvious that you haven't watched Portland play. Because if you have, you'd see that Roy gets the vast majority of his assists by passing to open jumpshooters like Juan Dixon and Martell Webster . . not because he can run the point. He'd be as about as effective as Chill has been running the point, assist wise, while shooting a far lower percentage from the field than Chill. Go check out his game stats on 82games.com. You'll see some interesting stuff. - His shooting percentage is WAY DOWN when he plays the point, as opposed to when he plays the SG. ( 38% vs 50% ) - His defense is pretty bad right now, seeing that PGs shoot over 50% against him at the point, and SG shoot a whopping 60% against him. He can't even begin to defend against quicker PGs, and he has major problems defending against decent 2's. - 70% of his shots are jumpers, which is common for a SG . . uncommon for a PG . . unless he was a Hawks PG, seeing that both Lue and Speedy see more than 75% of their shots being jumpers. All Roy would give us, is another young shooter to put out on the floor, and not necessarily a very good one either. He's a kid, who, if he stays at SG, will be a good player in this league. But right now, he needs to develop his game, not try to be some type of hybrid PG, like what Miami tried to do with Steve Smith back in the day. Roy at the point wouldn't make us a more efficient offensive ballclub, and it definitely wouldn't make us a better defensive one. That's why our GM passed on the kid, and went to address the interior defensive issues, by drafting Shelden. We can debate all day if Shelden is/was the answer on the inside. But Roy wouldn't have helped this team in the ways that you think he would. He's a guy that needs good PGs around him to maximize his talent. Walter . . you need to watch games and players, and not just look at stats, before you make an assessment on how a player will do for us. He just wouldn't have been the right fit for us, even if he does turn out to be a good player. If he can't play his natural position, the he'd be no use to us in the long run.

Ex . . I think one of the things that people overlook all the time about the Marvin pick is this. At the time we drafted Marvin, these are the players we had under contract: - Smoove - Chill - Ivey - Diaw - Harrington THAT'S IT !! 5 players, with Harrington being the obvious best player on the team. And he was also the guy who was most likely to bolt once the season was over. I think BK's philosophy was to find that "superstar" talent type player, then build around him. Before the draft, we'd missed out on Michael Redd, Ray Allen and Larry Hughes. JJ wasn't even in the picuture at draft time. To take Chris Paul, I believe that BK had to be convinced that he'd be a superstar PG in this league. An Isaiah Thomas like PG. I think he just didn't believe that. And when you look back on it, that's why he passed on Jameer Nelson, another solid PG, but took Smoove. He was looking for that "star". And I also think that BK was looking at the prospect early on to have a lineup where Marvin, Smoove, and Chill would all be starters after Harrington bolted. Then he could add vets to the team around those 3 core guys. When JJ became available, that kind of changed the landscape around here, and accellerated how good we could be, if we obtained the right pieces. But of course we'd be better off with one of those young PGs right now. But I don't know how good we'd be, if we had one of those young PGs, and not have JJ in the mix. You have to look at this from all angles, when assessing this team.

Quote: I have often thought a lot of criticism of the Administration is rooted on racism. Some will now accuse me of pulling the "race card". But racism is very vailed and disguised. I have read many post concerning the failings of Woody and/or BK when the actual failings are the players themselves (in many cases). So how much do you really think the hate is racism or what? LOL @ Swat. And that's part of the reason why I make it a point to point out things that Woody and BK has done well here. Not necessarily because of a racial undertone, but because people think that Woody is completely clueless. But if they actually watched the games and see how things transpire, he proves on a nightly basis that he isn't clueless. He definitely doesn't do everything right, but he's far from a clueless coach. But to answer your question directly . . no . . I don't think the criticizm is rooted in racism. But I do think that the vast majority of Hawksquawk doesn't want to give either of these guys ANY CREDIT WHATSOEVER when things go right. When you see something like that, it's easy to think that some racial undertones are behind that, becase we have seen that take place all throughout sports history. But I think it's more rooted in hate and frustration from all of this losing, than in racism. If it were mainly racism, some of the posters that despise Woody, wouldn't recommend another black coack to take his place, like a Doc Rivers or a Paul Silas. Here is the thing I hear most on this board: Woody is an idiot . . BK is an idiot. Yet, these same people will turn around and try to make a case about us being a playoff caliber team THIS YEAR if: a) we had a legit PG and/or a legit C. or b) we had a better coach to coach these group of guys, without that legit PG and/or legit C. So let me get this straight. If we had a good PG and C here, Woody wouldn't be an idiot, because we'd be a playoff caliber team, seeing that all we need is a PG and a C? Or on the flip side . . If we had a new coach, BK wouldn't be an idiot, because another coach would have these same group of guys, without the PG or C, actually winning games, thus, validating most of the player acquisitions that BK has made the past 3 years? This is the great contradiction on Hawksquawk. If Woody is an idiot, why would a couple of players make any difference? If the Hawks are over .500 with Chris Paul instead of Marvin Williams, how does that make Woody less of an idiot? And does that make BK less of an idiot as well? Wouldn't Woody make the same kinds of supposed substitution and coaching mental errors, even if he had better players here? Or would the difference acually be that the PLAYERS that Woody would have to coach, would be much better, thus, making him LOOK like a better coach because the Hawks would be winning? With the Hawks basically proving that they can play .500 ball when they have most of their key guys in the lineup, the downfall of this season has STILL been squarely been placed on Woody and BK. They're the sole reason for the 18 - 30 record this season in most people's eyes, even though it was CLEARLY evident that it was those rash of injuries in December, that completely knocked us off track. I've asked many times on this board what would the Hawks record be if we had everyone healthy? And the vast majority of the time that question goes unanswered. Why? Because people do not want to admit that these two guys may actually have something here, even though we don't have all the pieces we should have here yet. It's easier for Hawksquawk to say that we're a horrible team and a horrible franchise because of BK and Woody, than to admit that we could very well be a 24 - 24 ballclub, and the #8 seed in the East, if guys like Marvin, Smoove, Chill, Lue, and Speedy ALL didn't miss WEEKS at a time. Every other team in the NBA, with the exception of Houston and the LA Lakers, have completely seen their seasons fall apart when one or more of their key guys have had to miss significant time. But for the Hawks, that excuse isn't even an option. It's all on the coaches and the front office. To admit that we'd be a .500 team right now, is to admit that Woody and BK have this franchise right where they should be. And to admit that, would be a smack in the face to 80% of the posters on this board that despise everything about management and coaches. THAT'S why they'll NEVER give Woody or BK credit for anything. Just look at it. - Smoove gets all the credit for improving HIMSELF, instead of the coaches and the coaching staff putting him in position to really become an impact offensive player for us. Smoove has been characterized as a lazy ( at times ) and undisciplined player that shot way too many bad shots. Ever since Woody has moved him to the 4, he's become a player that provides energy on both ends of the court and a guy that takes what the defense gives him on offense. Even as late as 2 months ago, people like me, Diesel, and others on this board question if Smoove had any toughness. 2 months later, I don't even consider that to be an issue now. - Chill gets all the credit for his own improvement, especially after seeing that he was Public Enemy #1 on this board back in November 2005, even though it was Woody who turned him into a 6th man type player, and has seen his game become rock solid ever since. And it was the move to have him play point guard in short stretches back in January, that helped stabilize this team. - The move to start Lorenzen and bring ZaZa off the bench, while not better offensively, has helped us to become more stable defensively. And even from an offensive standpoint, it allows guys like Smoove and Marvin to look for their offense earlier in games, instead of deferring to JJ and ZaZa. Those are just some of the positives to look at, to counteract all of the negatives that people post. Heck, I could post about 5 other things that Woody/BK have done to solidify things here. As of right now though, all people see is the 18 - 30 record. I wonder if Bucks fans have turned on Terry Stotts with the way the Bucks have completely fallen off the face of the earth with the Michael Redd injury, even though THAT'S the reason why they've fallen off. Stotts is the same coach he was back in December, when the Bucks went 11 - 6 during that month, and had the #8 seed. Now, they're in the same position that we are. **************************************** But as far as Woody goes, take last night's final play, for instance. If you fault Woody for anything last night, fault him for having J-Rich in that game in that situation. Sure, you may need a shooter out there. But we're talking about a guy who has only been in the league 2 weeks, and you're asking him to potentially take a game winning shot or make a play to set up that shot, if the ball happens to get rotated to him. But to fault Woody because the Nets denied JJ the ball, isn't telling all that needs to be told about that play. The advantage of actually TAPING Hawks games, is that you can go back to the tape, and review that play over and over again, to acutally see what was going on. In my opinion, that play wasn't going to JJ in the first place. It was always supposed to go to set up Lue, because he'd be the guy most likely not to get doubled and have to take a tough shot. And he's proven that he can hit big shots over the years. When JJ popped up top to get the ball, he was doubled immeadiately. In fact, if you look at how JJ's body language was after he was doubled, it wasn't like he was making a big time attempt to get the ball anyway. Plus, he was struggling with his shot and he's not necessarily the best guy to beat a double team off the dribble. The 2nd part of that play, saw J-Rich draw Carter to the corner. J-Rich wasn't supposed to be part of that play at all. Part 3 of that play saw Marvin set an obstruction type screen ( it really wasn't a screen, more like Marvin just being in the way ), and Lue coming straight to Chill to get the ball. Lue gets the ball, and immeadiately gets the ball back to Childress. By this time, Kidd is racing back away from JJ, to try to help on Chill. Chill draws 3 people to him when he goes toward the baseline. And who was WIDE OPEN AT THE 3 POINT LINE? Tyronn Lue . . who was fully expecting the ball to come back to him. All Chill had to do is throw the ball back to Lue, and he has a wide open jumper, with all of the Nets scrambling toward Chill, to possibly win the game. But as Chill went to the baseline, he saw Vince Carter leave J-Rich to triple-team him, but leave J-Rich WIDE OPEN on the baseline, who was drifting to the other side of the court. If you want to fault Woody, fault him for having a player ( J-Rich ) who didn't have the awarenes to be in the right spot to make that play. But after 1.5 seconds elasped on the clock ( 6 seconds actual on the game clock ), Chill had 2 WIDE OPEN people to get the ball to. Or, he had the option to do like Smitty said . . . TAKE IT HARD TO THE HOLE and possibly draw a foul. That's 3 options for "supposedly" our most intelligent player to choose from. And he chose to pass the ball to a rookie jumpshooter. And because J-Rich is a "jumpshooter", his instinct is to keep drifting away from Chill, so that he'll have space to shoot his jumper if the ball came to him. NOT to stop outside the paint, so that he could receive a possible ponit blank pass from Chill, to possibly get a lay-up. So when J-Rich gets the ball with 5 seconds still on the clock, all he's thinking about is . . "I got to get this shot off before the clock runs out and before they get too close to me." 5 seconds is an eternity in NBA basketball. But J-Rich shoots a 15 foot fadeaway jumper, instead of having the awareness to pass it to Marvin, who is WIDE OPEN at the free throw line. Marvin even claps for the ball to try to get J-Rich's attention that he's open And I highlight that last sentence for a reason. In the New Jersey game, there was a situation in that game in which Speedy had received a pass from JJ after he was doubled. There was like 4 seconds on the shot clock. JJ claps 3 times at Speedy as he was catching the ball, and Speedy got the ball right back to JJ, who was wide open for a 21 footer that he drains. It's little plays like that, that veteran players make. So when Marvin clapped for J-Rich to throw him the ball for an open shot, I immeadiately thought of that play in the Jersey game between JJ and Speedy. But of course, J-Rich misses, and Childress was completely oblivious to the fact that there were still 2.5 seconds on the clock at the time where Vince grabbed the rebound. So who's the blame for the non-execution on that play? - Blame Woody for having a rookie in the game, instead of an experienced player. - Blame Chill for making 3 bad decisions on that play . . 1) not seeing that Lue was open . . 2) not driving hard to the hole and putting the game in his own hands with either making the lay-up or drawing the foul . . 3) not having the awarenes to foul Carter, to possibly give the Hawks one last shot to tie the game after Carter's FTs. - Blame J-Rich for losing the time of the game, and taking a rushed shot. - Blame JJ for not DEMANDING that he have the ball, either in the huddle when the initial play was called or making a stronger effort to get the ball even after being doubled. But the play call was a very good one, that should've gotten someone a wide open look.

Quote: Quote: The fact that he lines up as a Pf (by number) doesn't mean so much. yes it does. Smith's ball handling isn't that good but he can beat 4s off the dribble much more easily than 3s. He has also been doing better defensively at the 4. And if he is playing a guy who is too big for him it is much easier to double in the post than to double on the perimeter against a wing. Quote: Odom and the Lakers got their share of offensive boards. That is because the Hawks get no defensive rebounding from the center position. Zaza sucks on the defensive boards. Smith averages almost 50% more defensive boards than Zaza. In fact Zaza is 4th on the team in defensive rebounding. Ex . . . Smoove is basically doing now, what Diaw did in Phoenix last year. When he's matched up against 4's, he can get better looks offensively and get to the basket easier. Diaw killed 4s and 5s on the offensive end, because he was much quicker than they were. And Smoove is doing the same thing as of late. So you are dead on with what you're saying about Smoove and his improvement at the 4. And some of that credit, has to go to Woody for playing him there.

Quote: The only other thing is aggressiveness... You can't teach, train agressiveness this late. If so, Olowakhandi and Tim Thomas would be perennial allstars. When they said it would take him 3 years.. You guys never asked the most important question. You just took it and put it in your wallet like a membership card... "Well you know it's going to take 3 years." That's the same line of BS that came with Bender. That's the same line of BS that came with Swift. This late? LOL. He's only been in the league 1.5 years. And isn't the "aggressiveness" factor the same BS that Phoenix fans tried to sell us about JJ? That he was too "passive" of a player to be a big time guy in this league? It just goes to show you Diesel, that you have to deal with people on an individual basis. With the Hawks, Marvin only has to make those open shots and occasionally provide some rebounding, defense, and post offense. He doesn't have to be a superstar type talent. Just a solid one. And he WILL improve. Just like all of the other kids have improved here, outside of Salim.

Quote: I look at the future of our team being JJ, Smoove, and I would think Chill unless we get a great trade offer for him. Everyone else is expendable for the right deal. Speedy, Lue, ZaZa, Shelden I like too but I don't consider them the core yet. I was all for the Marvin pick but I just don't see him justifying his playing time right now. He may improve and be a superstar but his play is inconsistent at best. I'm not hating on him but in his actual play this season no part of his game has been above average. I still pull for him every game though. I just can't understand why Solomon and Ivey aren't getting minutes. I'm not saying they are fantastic but Ivey is a good defender and can knock down a few shots and Solomon is great high energy and would improve quickly with playing time I think. LOL . . the guy shot almost 60% in an 8-game stretch. And I guess the back spasms limited what he could do in that Laker game . . his first real bad game in over 3 weeks. I tell ya. Once people turn on a guy on this board, it's hard to bring them around. Marvin has been knocking down open 18 - 21 footers for 2 weeks now, and he gets no credit for doing that? He even got that low shooting percentage up to 42% for the season, before that Laker game . . ( dropped to 41% ). I don't think Smoove is even at 44% FG for the year yet. The guy just can't get the benefit of the doubt from some of you.

Quote: Quote: Exactly. Avery is an example of a good coach not afraid to bench a struggling youngster. Woodson is an example of a bad coach. Which struggling Youngster did Woody not bench?? You guys just talk a lot of stuff but never consider what you're saying. Woody benched JSmoove. Woody benched Shelden and Solomon. Woody benched every youngster we have except JJ?? Except when Woody does do it, you say he's a bad coach. If he wasn't to do it you would say he's a bad coach. Where's the fairness? LOL . . exactly.

LOL . . people bash Speedy so bad, even though they know that the guy is hurting. Hawks fans forget that Speedy is the very same guy a year ago, that torched the Hawks for 29 points. That's probably why BK went after him so hard, when he couldn't get Cassell here. BK remembered Speedy hitting all of those mid-range jumpers and getting fouled everytime he went to the hole. Speedy at 100% would be a godsend for the Hawks. He'd be the type of PG that everyone wishes we had around here. But Speedy at 65% is just another average PG. The kid is just hurting right now, and it's limiting what all he can do as a ballplayer.

Quote: It's the PG's fault... Now, there's the admission that Marvin can't create his own shot, so the blame now falls on the PG. Marvin has no problem creating his own shot. His problem is that he's not a good shooter off the dribble yet. That's something that he can learn to be better at. Hell, Salim can create his own shot. That doesn't mean that he's a good shooter when he does. Diesel, even though you despise Marvin, he is vital to what we are doing here, if not for anything, but from a depth standpoint. The fact that you blatantly omit Marvin from anything positive about this team, shows that you're just not objective when it comes to the kid. And it's a shame. You're supposed to be better than that, and keep the overall interest of the T-E-A-M in mind . . not your personal agenda against Marvin. The kid shot almost 60% in an 8 game stretch, until the Laker game where he went 0 - 6. The talent is definitely there. He's just not showing signs of being a "superstar" yet. I guess that's what everyone wants him to be right now . . a budding young superstar. If it takes him a while to become a very good player, then so be it. Right now, all I want him to do is be a consistent player. And he's showing every sign that he can be just that for this team.

Quote: Quote: ITS ALL COACHING. For all we know we have a team full of Karl Malones and David Robinsons. I can't decide between "absurd" and "ludicrous". Which adjective is best for this ridiculous statement? This argument, though flawed is an interesting one. JB argues that our team doesn't score in the post because we don't run post plays. A more sensible person might argue that we don't run post plays because we don't have post scorers. He does have a point that Shelden does have *some* post moves. He's a well-schooled basketball player. I don't think he's Karl Malone (or even close), but perhaps he could score more if plays were run for him. I think one of the main problems is that he's just not on the floor very much. Also, he hasn't shot for a very high percentage, so that casts doubt on his ability to be a go-to post option. Anecdotally, I've seen him try to make a move and get tied up or trapped a few times. I guess if this whole thing is an attempt to say we have all the pieces we need (except maybe PG), I would have to disagree. If it's an attempt to say we could squeeze a few more wins out of these boys, I would agree. I'm just not sure that's in our best interest, as you all know. Jesus must be coming today, because I actually agree with CBA on this one. The whole "post scoring" thing is absent for the same reason why this team takes a lot of jumpers instead of penetrating. We don't have guys that do either of those things well. What they do well, or better than anything else, is shoot open jumpers. The key is to take "good" open jumpers instead of forced ones. But back to the post scoring thing. ZaZa isn't a post scorer per ce. What ZaZa does, is take his man from the high post and tries to beat him off the dribble with a "crafty" move. He either beats his man, gets his shot blocked, or turns it over. What you NEVER see, is ZaZa sealing someone off in the low block, and getting a dunk or shooting a hook shot over his man. I think Shelden could be a post scorer from the simple fact that he MIGHT could draw fouls from his man. But as far as his effectiveness as a low block scorer, his skills are limited at this time. But he is smart enough to draw fouls. Other than that . . we have no post scorers . . unless you count when JJ posts up his man. In fact, JJ is probably our best low post scorer, from an efficiency standpoint. Smoove can't do it with regularity yet. Nor can Marvin. Lorenzen has never done it. It doesn't make any sense to complain about something, that you can't do efficiently. And the same goes to people "driving to the hole". We just don't have guys who are naturally comfortable with going to the basket. - JJ doesn't like to do it, and when he does, he'd rather shoot the floater in the lane than to draw contact and get to the line. - Smoove is trying to do it more, especially when he plays the 4, but he has major trouble finishing his drives or hanging onto the ball. - Marvin tried to do it when he first came back, but he's obviously much more comfortable as a jumpshooter and not as a slasher. - Chill does it a lot, and may be the best on the team at it. - Speedy could do it, if healthy . . but since he isn't, he penetrates looking to pass, instead of to score - Lue would always rather shoot the jumper. - ZaZa is the guy that always goes hard to the hole, looking for contact. But if he doesn't get the contact, it usually results in a turnover. LOL . . we're a jumpshooting team. I've learned to live with that. If we move the ball around and get guys open looks, it's a philosophy that can definitely work. But when you shoot jumpers, you better hit in the high-40% range, if you want to win. That, or hit 7 or more threes. I'm more worried about what this team is incapable of doing defensively, than what they can't do offensively.