TheNorthCydeRises

***** vs ORLANDO . . 1/29 ***** 1ST QUARTER 11:45 - Marvin finds JJ coming off of a screen, who hits a jumper. Assist to Marvin 11:10 - Defensive rebound 10:30 - Good 5 foot jump hook on the right block 9:16 - Defensive rebound 8:55 - Turnover on Marvin, trying to get the ball to JJ for an open 3. 8:49 - Hill makes a lay-up past Marvin -.5 here because his turnover led to the Orlando score. 7:14 - Marvin blocks Nelson's lay-up 6:48 - Marvin knocks down a 22 footer 5:17 - Marvin drives in the lane, then kicks the ball out to Smoove, who hits a 22 footer. 4:40 - Marvin hits a 19 foot jumper. Marvin out . . . Score: 21 - 15 ATL . . +/- in game: +6 2ND QUARTER 11:25 - Marvin in . . . Score: 29 - 23 ATL . . +/- out game: even 10:58 - Marvin rotates in the zone to force a traveling call on Arroyo. 9:51 - Marvin called for traveling while trying to back his man down low. 9:19 - Offensive tip rebound didn't go in basket 8:50 - Very shaky bringing the ball up against Hill. Almost led to a turnover, but Hill is called for the reach-in foul. 8:23 - Defensive rebound 4:52 - Long 2 pointer goes around the rim and out. Good shot though. 3:32 - Goes to dunk, but extends arm into Battie and is called for an offensive foul. This is the weakness in his offensive game right now. 3:19 - Defensive rebound :50.8 - Hits 18 foot jumper with the shot clock running down. **** Halftime **** Score: 48 - 41 ATL . . +/- in game: +1 3RD QUARTER 9:30 - Got completely turned around guarding Turkoglu, who beats him for a backdoor lay-up. 8:38 - Great ball movement on this possession, which ends with Marvin finding Lue for a wide open 3. Assist Marvin. 6:30 - Hits a 10 foot shot after receiving a nice pass from ZaZa. 5:58 - Marvin out . . Score: 59 - 47 ATL . . +/- in game: +5 4:59 - Marvin In . . Score: 61 - 50 ATL . . +/- out game: -1 3:52 - Great steal by Marvin, who then drives and misses a tough lay-up. Hawks retain possession though. 3:21 - Hard foul on Darko, who makes 2 FTs 3:01 - Hits a nice 21 foot jumper as the shot clock was running out. Good pass by Smoove to find him at the last minute. :45.6 - Marvin is aware enough to get a steal, after ZaZa pokes ball away from Howard. :01.6 - Great block by Marvin on Nelson, who actually beat Marvin off the dribble, but still had his lay-up blocked. 4TH QUARTER 15:00 - Marvin out . . Score: 71 - 58 ATL . . +/- in game: +2 10:45 - Marvin in . . Score: 71 - 61 ATL . . +/- out game: -3 9:54 - Arroyo strips Marvin as he was going to the hole for a tough lay-up. 7:44 - Marvin gets caught in a screen, which gives Arroyo just enough room to hit a jumper over Marvin's outstretched hand. 7:08 - Marvin out . . Score: 80 - 69 ATL . . +/- in game: +1 3:40 - Marvin in . . Score: 86 - 69 ATL . . +/- out game: +6 1:37 - Misses a 21 foot jumper with shot clock at 1 second. 1:36 - Throws an in-bound pass out of bounds, trying to hit Smoove coming back to the ball :31.8 - Marvin out . . Score: 93 - 83 ATL . . +/- in game: -7 ***** Final ***** 93 - 83 ATL . . +/- out game: even OVERALL GRADE: BHe had very good 1st and 3rd quarters in this game. The jumper looks good as ever, as long as he takes the shot in rhythm. Defensively, he was out of position a little, but did do some good things on that end as well. Had to lower his grade from a B+ to a B, because of the turnovers. Positive plays: 14 Negative plays: 6.5 +/- in game: +8 +/- out game: +2 ************************************************ ***** vs Golden St . . 1/31 ***** 1st QUARTER 10:45 - Marvin hits a good looking 3 pointer. LOL . . his foot was obviously on the line, but ref didn't see it. 10:17 - Makes a good aggressive baseline drive to the hole that draws a foul. He hits 2 FTs. 9:04 - Kind of gets lost in no-man's land on defense. Not sure if he was playing man or zone. In either case, Stephen Jackson ends up getting an easy lay-up as Marvin looks at him and barely moves. 8:35 - Pietrus hits a tough lay-up over Marvin 5:57 - Marvin hits the 21 footer 5:00 - Marvin's 22 foot airball shot was heavily contested by Jackson. Not a bad shot, just didn't have enough on it. 4:55 - Fouls Jackson going for a steal. 3:45 - Biendrins makes a hook shot over Marvin. 2:48 - Tries to front Harrington, but the lob pass goes right over Marvin's head. Harrington misses the lay-up, but is fouled by Smoove. Hits one FT. 1:42 - Knocks down 21 footer. 1:23 - Marvin out . . 26 - 25 GST . . +/- in game: -1 2ND QUARTER 8:53 - Marvin in . . Score: 38 - 37 ATL . . +/- out game: +2 8:23 - Makes 21 foot jumper from the corner 6:54 - Bumps into Powell and is called for a foul. Marvin out - Score: 46 - 38 ATL . . +/- in game: +7 ***** Halftime ******. . Score: 70 - 56 ATL . . +/- out game: +6 3RD QUARTER 9:40 - Good in-bound entry pass to JJ, who was right near the basket. JJ makes the lay-up. 9:28 - Good steal by Marvin, who goes the length of the floor and dunks. (( 2X positive play here )) 6:09 - Hits a 22 footer . . rapidly becoming his money shot. 2:03 - Pull up 15 footer is nothing but money in the bank. :03.4 - Defensive rebound, then misses 1/2 court shot at the end of the period. 4TH QUARTER 10:49 - Misses 22 footer. 6:10 - Nice steal by Marvin. 4:59 - Picture perfect pass to Shelden, who makes lay-up and gets fouled. 4:47 - Called for defensive 3 seconds. Gonna give him -.5 here 4:35 - defensive rebound 3:49 - Marvin out . . Score: 107 - 81 ATL . . +/- in game: +12 ****** Final ****** .. 115 - 94 ATL . . +/- out game: -5 OVERALL GRADE: A- . . He played so under control that game. Offensively, he was dang near perfect. The jumper is pure, and pretty much proves that maybe the injury was the reason for the slow offensive start. Defensively, he had very few mental lapses. Just a good all-around team win. Positive plays: 12 Negative plays: 2.5 +/- on floor: +18 +/- off floor: +3

LOL . . what happened to that bet that Walter made before the season, regarding Shelden and Sene?

nj... this season to me is the 2004 bengals season all over again. they were a young team that had to overcome a lot of crap, before they really started to gel. ty lue plays the role of jon kitna for us.

Quote: Way to jinx it, man. Smooth. lol. my faith in this team has never waivered. they'll get it done tonight. and even he they don't, it's ok. they're learning how to play with each other and that's the most important thing for the future of this franchise.

a chance to have it's first winning month in 3 years. also a chance to post it's first 8 win month since 1999

Quote: With a better coach just maybe the Hawks display that sense of urgency. Listen up Cyde: There is NO EXCUSE when you lose at home by 15 points to the lousy SIXERS. None. And if you would pull your head out of Woody's butt you might understand that. This win was a layup. We not only get beat, we get blown up. If you want to make excuses for this type of stuff be my guest. But a lot of fans know what time it is...we are a piss poor team with a piss poor coach...piss poor ownership...and piss poor GM. These losses are far too common, just like getting hammered at home by the beat up Hornets a couple weeks back. There is no excuse for this garbage. Byron Scott owns Mike Woodson...even Mo Cheeks is better. The Sixers aren't that bad, huh? LOL... Pete . . the NBA is about matchups. When a team doesn't have a significant talent advantage over another, the matchups will determine who will win the game. Philly's frontline played excellent. JJ had an off game shooting the ball. And Smoove was pretty much a non-factor in the 2nd half. Excuses? No. Facts. That game was even, until Dre Miller took over. I guess inserting Ivey in the game would've prevented him from going off . . lol. LOL @ a lay-up win for us. We never have lay-up wins over anybody. We beat Orlando on the road, but lose to the Sixers at home. Hey, those are your Atlanta Hawks.

1ST QUARTER 7:35 - Marvin was in position to get the rebound, but Smoove tries to get the rebound as well, and both end up knocking the ball out of bounds. 4:16 - Missed 18 foot jumper. Lots of movement before the shot. 3:25 - Takes one dribble, acting like he was going into the lane, but steps back and knocks down a 19 foot jumper at the top of the key. 2:39 - Marvin folued when trying to get post position. But he misses both FTs. A rarity for him. 2:18 - Marvin out of game . . . Score: 24 - 16 Philly . . . +/- on the floor: -8 :07.3 - Marvin back in game ( for defensive purposes ) . . Score: 27 - 18 Philly . . +/- out of game: -1 **************** 2ND QUARTER 15:00 - Marvin out of game . . Score: 27 - 18 Philly . . even +/- 7:11 - Marvin back in game . . Score: 39 - 32 Philly . . . +/- out of game: +2 6:18 - Nice recovery here. Iggy initially knocks the ball away from Marvin, but Marvin recovers the ball, drives into the lane, and hits a 12 foot floater. 5:17 - Good closelout on Korver, who misses a 3 pointer at the top of the arc. 3:17 - Drives to the hole, but shot is blocked by Dalembert 2:39 - Grabs defensive rebound and starts a 4 on 2 fast break. Passes to JJ who is wide open for a 3, but JJ couldn't knock the shot down. :42.1 - Excellent touch pass to Chill on the fast break. who gets an easy dunk :25.1 - Looks like he gets completely shook by Iggy going to the hole when he falls down. Further review shows that Marvin falls down because he stepped on Daly's foot, who was setting a screen for Iggy. ***** End of Half ***** . . Score: 55 - 48 Philly . . +/- on the floor: even *********** 3RD QUARTER 11:22 - Marvin picks up the loose ball and immeadiately finds jj streaking down the court what should've been an easy 2 for JJ and a Marvin assist. But Carney hustles on the play and blocks JJ's lay-up. ((I'm going to give Marvin .5 positive points for this play, because it shoulud've been an easy 2 for the Hawks that he created for JJ.)) 9:25 - 2 Offensive rebounds for Marvin after having his shot blocked twice while aggressively trying to put the ball in the hole from point blank range. He also makes a good pass to Lorenzen after recovering the 2nd block. Lo then goes through the same fate as Marvin, by having his shot blocked. 2nd block was a goaltend that wasn't called. (( I'll give Marvin another .5 points here, for his hustle and keeping the play alive )) 8:42 - Knocks down 21 footer and gets fouled on the play. He converts the 3 point play . . . (( 2 positive points here )) 7:29 - Knocks down another 21 footer on a perfect looking shot. 5:04 - Misses 20 footer. A "heat check" type of shot. 4:26 - Plays good defense on Iggy to almost force a turnover. Marvin then steals the ball 4 seconds later and is fouled becore he can start the fast break. He hits both of his free throws . . . (( 2 positive points here for coming up with the turnover and scoring at the line on the other end )) 3:23 - Draws a foul on Iggy when he was trying to post him up down on the block. He hits both of his FTs plus the technical foul free throw called on Dre Miller on the same play. 2:41 - Got the ball with 4 seconds on the shot clock. Instead of shooting, he passes to ZaZa who was completely oblivious to the shot clock. Turnover Hawks. 2:37 - Marvin out of the game . . Score: 72 - 68 Philly . . +/- on the floor: +3 *********** 4TH QUARTER 10:37 - Marvin back in the game . . Score: 76 - 73 Philly . . +/- out of game: +1 10:00 - Hits driving lay-up over Hunter. A strong play to the hole. 8:46 - Gets a hand in Miller's face as he drives for a lay-up. Dre hits a tough shot over Marvin that he banks off the glass. 7:50 - Marvin misses 22 footer 6:37 - Smoove and Marvin can't deny the entry pass to Dalembert. Daly makes the lay-up and is fouled by Marvin. He converts the 3 point play. . . (( -2 points for Marvin here )) 4:29 - Good defense on Iggy forces him to miss a jumper. 4:15 - Marvin makes a 21 foot jumper 2:12 - Loses ball after going aggressively into the lane, when he bumps into Joe Smith. :56 - Comes from the weak side and fouls Iggy to prevent him from making an easy lay-up. :56 - Marvin out of game . . Score: 101 - 87 Philly . . +/- on the floor: -11 ******* Final Score ********* 104 - 89 Philly . . +/- off the floor: -1 ********** OVERALL GRADE: B . . . He had a lackluster first half, but really turned up his play in the 2nd half. His play in the 3rd quarter was excellent. One thing of note in this game. The player that Marvin was guarding when we were in man to man ( Korver, Iggy, Carney ), didn't look to challenge him or shoot over him much at all. Those other players attacked Chill and Joe, but not Marvin. It says something about how his length bothers the man he is guarding when out on the perimeter. Marvin looks a lot more comfortable taking the open jumper and is making a point to really get his feet set before he catches the ball. Positive plays: 13 Negative plays: 5 +/- in the game: -16 +/- out of game: +1

Quote: We came out flat... They didn't. We fought hard. They did too. We made up deficit after deficit, they never gave up. I don't think they stink as badly as you may believe. Maybe with AI, this team stinks.. but without AI and with Miller, this team is not so bad. They can run and they got scorers. Our problem tonight and I'm hard pressed to find a lot of them because we played very good offensively... Defensively, we just couldn't get many stops. Who'd expect Dalembert to hit the shots that he did? Who'd expect that Andre' Miller would dominate the way he did. Like Smitty said... "sometimes you have to play with a sense of urgency early". and I think that's how we lost. Good analysis Diesel. People act like the Hawks are this team that should beat everybody on any given night. LOL . . we're just as schizophrenic as all of the other "bad" teams in this league. Dre Miller took over the game in the 4th quarter, when the Hawks were only down 2. We go down the court 4 straight times and miss 4 straight jumpers. Meanwhile, Miller hits 4 straight shots and had a nice assist to Iggy for a dunk, that quickly pushed that lead to 12. That stretch ended the game.

Are you guys SERIOUS? You're complaining about Batitsta not dressing? LMAO . . come on now. Batista hustles, but he was/is a fouling machine who just bangs people on the block. Did anybody see the last game Batista played last week? Yeah . . he was really a factor on the boards and on defense in that game. If anything, complain about Woody not playing Solomon Jones ( who is also a fouling machine, by the way ), but is a young player that has tons of more upside than Batista. Heck, even make a case for Shelden seeing more time. But Batista? LMAOOOOOOOO. You guys can do better than this. Wanting Woody fired because he doesn't play a big man that should be in the NDBL, is ridiculous. We all know the problems with this team. We just don't have the personnel right now to fix it on a nightly basis. And I've never seen Daly and Steven Hunter play that well throughout their entire careers. Those guys were hitting 10 - 15 foot jumpers by the boatload.

Quote: Quote: When we're not injured, we're a little better than .500. That is an absolute joke. Are you basing that on the first 6 games? * 4 - 1 in the first 5 games . . could've easily been 6 - 1 if we pulled out those two games vs Milwaukee and Seattle. * 6 - 7 at the end of November. Maybe if Chill was healthy, that record is 8 - 5 * We lose 11 out of 12 from early-December to early January mainly because that's the time when we had people dropping out of this lineup like flies * Last 11 games . . . we're 6 - 5 and starting to get back to full strength. So let's review. From the beinning of the season to the incredible comeback win @ Denver on December 6th, the Hawks were an 8 - 9 team From Dec. 8 till Jan 5 . . the Hawks were 1 - 12 From Jan 6 till now . . the Hawks were 6 - 5. It is so inconcievable that the Hawks couldn't be a .500 team, if we were somewhat healthy?

Damn . . if I'm not mistaken, that Jaric deal was a sign and trade. Now, the Wolves are stuck with Jaric's deal, which will pay him 34 million over the next 5 years

Quote: I'm not on the get rid of Woody bandwagon just yet, but I'm open to discussing the possibility of making a coaching change in the offseason. With that said, if a coaching change is made, the offensive structure of the team is the least of my concerns. I want someone that can get this team to play consistent defense. That's the only way this team is going to push through and get into the playoff picture. That's why I would look into coaches like Mike Fratello, Paul Silas, and Del Harris.....coaches that have strong defensive backgrounds. I don't believe in the theory that just because you stress defense that you are going to be a plodding team offensively. Two things though: 1. I absolutely hate the idea of hiring a retread head coach. 2. It makes no sense to fire a first time head coach and then replace him with a first time head coach. Now, when you look at the situation at hand, if a coaching change is made, the Hawks have to get an experienced head coach that is basically a retread. The one guy that I will not hesitate to support for this job is Eric Musselman, and there is some talk that he might get fired in Sacramento after this season. I believe that Eric Musselman is a very strong young head coach in the league, and he would be my top choice to replace Woody if that decision has to be made. I agree KB. And don't get me wrong about Woody. If we could find an upgrade to him, I wouldn't be against letting him go. But these guys on this board act like he's the sole reason why the Hawks don't win, instead of blaiming what really ails this team: injuries and youth But you just don't fire a coach, just to be firing him. The way the T-Wolves let go of Casey, may come back to bite them in the butt. That team had won 10 of their last 13 games, before we came in there and destroyed them. Then they lose to Detroit in OT, and road games at Phoenix and Utah, and the guy gets fired? LOL . . now the team can't even beat Portland and Seattle on the road. People talk about our GM and ownership. But Kevin McHale has to be the most idiotic GM on the planet. BK looks like Jerry West, compared to him. - The Joe Smith "under the table deal", which costs them a boatload of money and three 1st round picks - Signing Wally Szczerbiak and Troy Hudson to HUGE deals. Wally was the T-Wolves version of Harrington, a decent, but one-dimensional scoring forward. Troy Hudson is a notch below Tyronn Lue, but got a big deal from McHale after his stellar "4-game" performance against the Lakers in a 1st round match. Now, Hudson is buried on the bench . . making over 25 million for the next 4 years. - Signing Cassell and Spreewell, which were great things, but refusing to pay them after they got the Wolves to the WCF. That seemed to distract Spree, and have him play horrible that whole year. And Cassell struggled with injuries off and on the entire season. That pretty much killed the Wolves "window of opportunity" in one year. - The Sam Cassell trade AND a 1st round pick . . for Marko Jaric. This is arguably the worst trade this young century. McHale thought that Cassell was washed up, because he stayed hurt too much, so he traded for Jaric because he was "supposedly" a better passing and defensive PG. LOL . . but Jaric can't hit the side of a barn, and his defense and playmaking ability was vastly overrated. - Now, he lets go of an average coach who probably had the T-Wolves right where they should've been, because he and the fan base thought that the Wolves should be better. But with only an interim assistant coach to step in, the Wolves might be worse off. BK >>>> McHale

Quote: Woody is the man NorthC....LOL. Woody is an idiot. We have 3 players doing it on their own. JJ - JS - and to a lesser degree JC. The Wood man is clueless. DJ, you're the clueless one, if you truly believe that. Players don't get markedly better during the season, unless the coach has something to do with it. Players usually work on their games in the offseason, but the coaches put them in the right situations to maximize their talents. JJ didn't develop on his own in Phoenix. Nor did Diaw. Nor did any of those former scrub players, who are now great complimentary players in Phoenix. Boozer was a good PF in Cleveland. Sloan has turned him into a mini-Karl Malone. Shoot, even JJ has developed his game more in Atlanta. Most people, including Hawks fans, thought that JJ could NEVER play at this level. Even though it was out of necessity, Woody pretty much put the ball in his hands last year, and let him be a Paul Pierce-like playmaker for this team. Now, he's becoming that dangerous 2-guard that very few of you thought he could turn into. And understand this DJ. We run a lot of the offense that they ran in Detroit, when they were winning titles a few years back. A lot of in-screens. A lot of pick-and-pop type plays. The Hawk coaches aren't clueless, but they do need a certain amount of talent to execute what they want to do. Woody isn't the man DJ. He's just not the Hawks anti-christ. And if we're able to make a legit run at the playoffs, he has to get a lot of the credit if we do, along with our young players.

Quote: well i'm going to have to disagree with many of your points. One point I DO agree with is that we have youth and we need more vets to be more consistent NOW. However we have plenty of talent but again it's young so it's still developing. Josh Smith if you notice is becoming a beast out there on both ends of the court. You are correct on Chill and you are definitely correct on needed a dishing point (but we tried in free agency and Speedy was the best we could get) and needing a center. Marvin is too passive yes but again we all knew he was a project. It's consistency we need from him. Sometimes he's fired up, sometimes he's not. Doc is the voice of reason on this board. Great post.

Quote: I think the key point made is the coach not able to get the talent out of the guys we have and his inability to develop the young guys any better. He preaches defensc, but it only shows up part of the time. Welcome back JW. So how do you explain the development of Josh Smith and Josh Childress, if the coach can't develop young talent? You guys can't have it both ways when it comes to Woody. He's by no means a great coach, but he's not garbage either. But you can't praise the Joshs for their improved play during the season, and think that the coach has absolutely nothing, or very little, to do with that development. He's as responsible as anybody, for the development of the 2 Joshs, players that everybody love right now. That "love" definitely wasn't present when the season started. Let most people on this board tell it . . the jury was still out on both of those guys. If we have to wait another 1/2 to 1 year for Marvin to become a consistent ballplayer, so be it. But I even see Marvin not wanting to force the issue these days. When Marvin first came back, the Hawks were asking someone on this team to step up and be a consistent #2 or #3 scorer. Marvin tried to fill that role, but he wasn't ready to be an efficient scorer because he hasn't found his niche as an offensive player yet. Is it possible now that we have everybody back, that Woody is telling Marvin to "settle down and take that open 15 - 20 footer every chance you get", instead of trying to get to the hole and be that slasher you were in summer league? There are no summer league refs in the NBA, so he's not going to get the calls when he goes to the hole. So maybe coach told Marvin to play within himself, and work on being a good mid-range shooter first. Once that part of his game is established, he'll then be able to get to the hole, when people start overplaying him to take that jumper. Marvin's development is nowhere near complete. It's just that 80% of Hawks fans are impatient as hell because they're tired of the losing, and want something to latch on to. But with a young team, you have no choice but to wait.

Quote: Quote: Doc and others, Outside of Joe and Josh (whom I did highlight as THE reasons we won in Orlando) I don't see starting caliber players on this team. So when I say there is a lack of talent, that's what I'm talking about. No doubt that Marvin could blossom...it's really up to him, which I stated. He has the NBA body, but does he have the NBA instinct. It was clear that he did not have any aggression in this game, but I saw it against lesser comp in the summer leagues. Being Dion Glover is not going to cut it for Williams. I didn't get to see Speedy play, of course, so can't really judge him here. Childress could be a starting caliber player if there were a Nash-like PG playing with him. Otherwise, he's a Shane Battier type player that needs others to find him to score. Who else is there that makes up this team full of talent? I may have missed it, but Johnson and Smith are it as of today. Marvin maybe later, Childress if someone comes along that plays like Kidd/Nash. That's not a team loaded with talent. That's a team that will bump along, winning when Johnson and/or Smith plays a good game. Fortunately, Joe plays that game a lot, but teams will continue to send doubles and triples at him, especially in the fourth, and if he's all that can be counted on, then the team won't be a consistent winner. Man, this is almost as good as the return of Superman....or not Jay. Good to see you. I have to agree....I think if Marvin had the aggression necessary, we're debating the one-two punch of Marv/JJ instead of JJ only. I was one of the few who ripped BK for at least picking Shelden at #5. He's another piece that doesn't quite get you what you need, but I hold out hope that he improves and I'm not bashing him....but astute picking has not been BK's strengths. Where we were picking...we should have done more, but I'll leave that alone. BK did pick the best big man available, or at least the best big man with the best credentials. LOL . . imagine this team without Shelden, but with Brandon Roy or Randy Foye. Offensively, we'd probably be better with Roy or Foye. Defensively, we'd get killed more than ever on the inside. One of the things that people overlook about Shelden, is that he does subtle things that don't show up on the stat sheet. He sets good screens in the halfcourt set. He's also a decent passer in the halfcourt offense. And he plays good man to man defense and has a knack of stepping in and taking a charge every once in a while. Shelden is a very smart basketball player. He does have to learn how to play a little bigger in this league, if he wants that 10 year career. But right now, Shelden provides exactly what is asked of him . . play decent defense off the bench, and get those defensive rebounds. And he even has a decent 15 foot jumper. He's a lot like my boy up in Minnesota, Trenton Hassell. Offensively, he doesn't stand out as a player that does much, seeing that he lacks that aggressive nature to assert himself. It's funny though. In college, he was much more known as an offensive player, than a defensive one. Even when he came to the Bulls as a rookie, he was actually their 3 point specialist, not their defensive stopper. It wasn't until Ron Artest kept telling him that he could stay in this league a long time, if he made a commitment to be a good defender, that his focus turned on being just that. The Bulls cut he and Fred Hoiberg after Year 2. They both end up in Minnesota, and were key cogs in their Western Conference Finals run 3 years ago. Ever since then, Trenton has been known as a defensive specialist. But Lord knows that everytime Trenton comes home for the summer, that I and everybody else is telling him to be more assertive on offense. Sometimes he does it. But most of the time, he just plays his role as the T-Wolves premier perimeter defender, and as a guy who can knock down open shots. In reality, Trenton should be a guy averaging about 11 - 13 ppg for the Wolves, and getting some of Ricky Davis' shots. But he's a good teammate and just does what he's told, instead of forcing things on offense, unlike Ricky, who is the exact opposite. Shelden just plays his role with the Hawks. I know everybody wants him to be great, seeing that we took him at #5, but he's doing exactly what he should be doing right now. LOL . . the alternative, would be to bring Batista off the bench and play him 20 minutes a game. I'll take Shelden thank you.

Quote: A finish of 35 wins should NOT be enough for Woody to keep his job. His job is finished. He was the sacrificial lamb while we were in the bottom of the rebuild. We need a coach that can actually teach offense and get guys moving without the ball. There is simply too much standing around on offense. Second, there is no creativity in the offense. The defense is better, but still not spectacular. A new coach will also energize the fan base. The city really needs something to rally around. Adleman would be the perfect guy for the team and the city. Again we have the specter of Darth to contend with though, so I doubt any decent coach will come here until the legal situation is clarified. In regards to Childress, I agree he is the smartest player on the team. He will flourish in a creative offensive system that lets him slash. Him playing point also reduces what he can do. Frog, when this team was scoring 102 . . 95 . . 104 . . 111 . . 112 . . and 101 points ( the point totals in 6 of our first 7 games ), there was nothing wrong with us offensively. Ironically, it wasn't until Chill went down, that the offense started to stagnate a little, because he was a big contributor off the bench. So instead of scoring over 100 points a game, we dropped down to around 95 - 98 points a game. Instead of Lue and Chill being the main guys off the bench, it was Lue and Salim, which hurt us defensively. Conversely, our opponent point totals started to go up. And we started to lose a little more games than we were winning. Marvin comes back, and we hoped that he could pick up where Chill left off, but he wasn't ready to take on that role yet, so we suffered a little more. We were still afloat, but you could see us sinking a bit. But it wasn't until Lue went down, the guy who we could count on to provide a consistent scoring punch during stretches of games, that this team really went into a funk offensively. When he went down, we were asking . . no . . we were BEGGING someone to step up and be that 2nd or 3rd scorer. Smoove stepped his game up, but the others didn't. ZaZa especially started to slip in mid-December. The death blow came when Smoove went out. So now we're without Lue, Smoove, and Childress . . 3 key guys to everything we do as a team . . . and asking Salim, Ivey, Shelden, and Marvin to step up and provide what they contributed to the offense. Speedy actually stepped his game up during this time, but the offense was struggling big time without Smoove, Chill and Lue out of the loop. You guys talk how coaching is such a factor to where we are as a team right now. LOL . . no team could survive having 3 of its top 5 players out of the lineup for a significant stretch. ********** So what's starting to happen now? - Chill comes back, and we immeadiately get better defensively, but not offensively, even though Chill came back playing good basketball. The others weren't stepping up at all on offense, and it was starting to take its toll on JJ. - Smoove comes back early, and it immeadiately impacts the team offensively and defensively. Why? Because Smoove was important to our halfcourt offense. He was also the guy who would be most likely to finish on the fast break. And I don't even have to say to what he meant to us on defense. Here's a Smoove stat for you Frog. In the 8 games that Smoove missed, the Hawks went 1 - 7, and only scored more than 82 points in 2 of those games. Since his return, the Hawks are 5 - 3, and have scored 82 or more points in 7 of those 8 games. If and when Lue's jumper returns to form, it's a good bet that the Hawks offense will be right back to where it was at the beginning of the season. And if we can get Speedy back, without losing anybody else, the Hawks defense will be even better. When a team goes through injuries, I don't care who you are, you're going to struggle. Just ask Pat Riley . . who used his "aching knees" to get out of the Miami job for a while. LOL . . and the Heat still can't get back on track, even thoug the Diesel is back. Injuries will KILL YOU as a team. 35 wins may not keep Woody's job. 40 wins will definitely keep his job, because we're probably in the playoffs if we reach that mark. And the improvements that Smoove and Chill have made, have to be credited, in some part, to the offensive roles that the coach that you despise have put them in. Woody has to get some of the credit for their development. Players don't develop on their own in this league, especially not during the season.

Quote: Early in the year everyone was screaming about Smith shooting too many 3s, but I wasn't that worried about it. I think Woody gave him the green light so that Smith would see for himself that 3 point shooting isn't the way he can best help the team. Since the beginning of December he is averaging about 2 three pt attempts per game or less than half of what he was averaging the first few weeks of the season. Of course he still isn't hitting them but oh well. On the positive side his jumper from a couple of steps inside the line has been improving and that will really help open up opportunities to drive, especially when playing the 4. Interesting point about maybe Woody was letting him take all those 3's, to prove to him that he isn't a Rasheed Wallace type player. LOL . . I was at that Seattle game in which he and JJ took all of those 3's. I think JJ was 3 - 14, while Smoove was 3 - 10 . . and he hit 2 of those in OT. It was the type of game in which he just got caught up in the pace of the game, and was taking every open shot available. But since that time, Woody has really cracked the whip on the kid, and almost forced him to take open shots that are 18 feet and in . . and most importantly, take the ball to the hole. No one will give Woody credit for Smoove's in-season offensive transformation, but that's what happened. In the offseason, I'd love to see him work on his post game, even work with a former center like Olajuwon, like Dwight Howard did. Develop a legit low post game, along with that 15 - 18 foot jumper. If he does that, and work on his handles, he's going to be a very dangerous player next year.

Quote: Quote: First of All as everyone knows I am a MArvin fan so please don't turn this into hate thread. Now on to my point. I noticed last night that when he shot the ball he had a strange hitch to his release. It was so bad that you knew that when it left his hand it wasn't going in. The game before when he was hot,that hitch was not there and it was a much smoother shot. I find this kind of strange. Could his hand not been fully healed and if not he should not be starting or playing as many minutes. We need more consistency in the lineup because he isn't there yet. Right now he is where Smoove was last year. Unlike some guys on here (Diesel and Walter)I knew that it was understood that he was a three year project. Having said that there shouldn't be any excuses next year. But I have noticed that his man on man defense is pretty good and he uses his length well. Maybe that is why he is starting. you are right! good observation. i have notice the hitch in his shot for a while now; he is not shooting with the same mechanics he had last year. shouldnt the coaching staff notice this and have mw make the proper adjustments That "hitch" in Marvin's shot only occurs when he's on the move and he's rushing his shot. I've pretty much concentrated on watching him play over the past 4 - 5 games, just solely watching him after I watch the entire game. When Marvin has his feet set and is ready to shoot when he catches the ball, his jumper is almost automatic from about 20 feet and in. He's just not a good "on the move" shooter yet. And when he drives, he's not finishing because he's a little out of control when he goes to the hole. Stuff like that will be corrected over time. Marvin plays within himself and doesn't try to do more than he's capable of doing. Sometimes, he does play a little lazy, but most of the time, he just does his job. He doesn't have the "I need to be a superstar" mentality yet. He's just playing to the strengths of his game. It's just funny to see this board all the time talk about Marvin. People want this kid to be a superstar right out the gate, just because he was the 2nd pick in the draft. Unfortunately, players don't come into the league as instant superstars the vast majority of the time, especially if they go to a team with players better than he is. I think Marcus Williams may be a perfect example of this. Because he's a backup to Jason Kidd, he's going to learn a hell of a lot about how to play the PG position. But because he'll play limited minutes in his rookie year, he may not have the type of season statically, than he would if he went to a team where he could immeadiately be the starter. In the long run though, Williams will probably turn out to be a damn good PG for the simple fact that he gets to watch J-Kidd on a nightly basis. LOL . . people better check out how Smoove played at this same point in his career ( Jan '06 ). He wasn't exactly setting the world on fire either. It didn't start to click for him, until after the All-Star break. http://databasebasketball.com/players/play...ilkid=SMITHJO03

Quote: Shelden keeps hovering between #5 and #7 in the nba rookie rankings and you don't think he'll make the top 12? Please. It doesn't look as good for Marvin, but he's #10 in points and assists, #12 in rebounds. It's not as strong of a lock, but he should make it. Are the rosters 10 or 12? I think the rosters are 10. LOL . . if they don't take Marvin, they're going to run a bunch of PGs out on the floor then. Paul is out, so that probably excludes him. So is Charlie Villanueva. Starters for the Sophomores: G - Monta Ellis G - Deron Williams F - Danny Granger F - Hakim Warrick C - Andrew Bogut 2nd 5: G - Ray Felton G - Jarrett Jack F - Marvin Williams F - Sean May F - Channing Frye Rookie starters: G - Brandon Roy G - Randy Foye F - Andrea Bargnani F - Adam Morrison C - LaMarcus Aldridge 2nd 5: G - Marcus Williams G - Jordan Farmar F - Rodney Carney F - Rudy Gay C - Jorge Garbajosa Shelden may sneak in, but it will be tough. On the other hand, I think Marvin is almost a lock to make the sophomore team.

Good question. Steals among forwards: 1) Marion - 2.16 2) Iggy - 2.14 3) Caron Butler - 2.02 4) Gerald Wallace - 1.83 5) Manu - 1.8 6) Smoove - 1.64 Blocks among forwards: 1) O'Neal - 3.03 2) Okafor - 2.93 LOL . . both of those guys play a lot of center too. 3) Smoove - 2.67 Rebounds among forwards ( that also plays a part ) 1) KG - 12.6 2) D-Howard - 12.3 3) Boozer - 12.0 4) Okafor - 11.4 5) Tyson Chandler - 11.0 11) Marion - 10.1 29) Smoove - 7.9 But you know what will keep Josh off of that 1st team right? He plays for the Hawks. And none of the media people see the Hawks unless they happen to roll into their town. It's the same type of ish that may keep JJ out of the All-Star game. You have to figure that Shawn Marion is a lock to make the 1st team. The other spot may go to O'Neal. Smoove may make the 2nd team all-defense team though. But he deserves 1st team honors as of right now.

You mean like how Karl's record is stellar now? I mean, even when they didn't have Melo in the lineup, he still had a hall of fame player in Iverson. It just goes to show you that when injuries hit, it really doesn't matter how good of a coach you are. And if this team is so deficient in so many areas, I doubt that Karl could turn us into a winner. You guys have to give Woody some of the credit when the team wins. It's funny that you came back with that Karl comment, but couldn't comment on ANY of the points that I stated about Woody. Typical for this board, when a person hates a player or a coach. You're a great fan though Las . . keep posting the good stuff.

1ST QUARTER 7:02 - Fouls Perkins who makes the lay-up for an "and one". 5:44 - Marvin out of game . . . score: 13 - 3 Boston . . . +/- on the floor: -10 3:21 - Marvin back in game . . Score: 19 - 4 . . . +/- off the floor: -5 2:54 - hits 20 footer. Only the 2nd FG for the Hawks that quarter :45.2 - Green hits a 3 pointer. Marvin didn't close out on him and Green had plenty of room to get the shot off. *************** 2ND QUARTER 10:48 - Gomes scores lay-up over Marvin 10:03 - Misses a 20 foot jumper 7:41 - Lazy possession for Marvin here. Gomes grabs a rebound that Marvin would get if he jumped for the rebound. Then he watches Poe grab the loose ball and dunk it after Smith blocks Green's Lay-up. Poor effort by Marvin here. ((( I'll have to give him a -2 for this ))) 7:32 - Good interior pass to JJ, who was fouled before the shot 6:45 - Misses 12 foot face up jumper over Jefferson 5:17 - Shot bocked off of Marvin by Jefferson. He got fouled on the play, but no call. 4:46 - Misses 18 foot baseline jumper. 4:27 - Marvin out of game . . Score: 36 - 20 Boston . . . +/- on the floor: -1 1:09 - Marvin back in the game . . Score: 40 - 25 Boston . . . +/- out of the game: +1 *** Halftime score: 44 - 29 Boston *** 3RD QUARTER 11:24 - Loses track of the shot clock and lets it run out. 10:52 - Good headfake to get Gomes in the air. Takes one dribble to set his feet and knocks down the 15 footer. 9:52 - Good defense on Gomes, but he still hits the 15 footer. 9:36 - Misses open 3-pointer from the corner. (( If he settles for one more jumper and misses, I'll have to give him negative points )) 9:29 - Defensive rebound 8:39 - Loses sight of Green, who knocks down a 3. He got lost in about 2 screens. 7:02 - Good crosscourt pass to Chill, who knocks down a three. Key basket in the Hawks comeback that cut the lead to 12. 6:35 - Tip defensive rebound off the backboard inadvertantely starts a Hawks fast break. Smoove finishes the break with a great dunk. Momentum changer right here. 5:52 - Marvin out of game . . . 57 - 46 Boston . . . +/- on the floor: +4 :52.6 - Marvin back in . . Score: 62 - 56 Boston . . +/- out of game: +5 ************* 4TH QUARTER 10:00 - Called for 3 seconds. He was in the lane before he received the pass, then pump faked too many times when he did get the ball. 8:50 - Hits 16 foot jumper to tie the game at 62 8:22 - Defensive rebound 7:43 - Defensive rebound 6:50 - marvin out of the game . . Score: 66 - 64 Atlanta . . +/- on the floor: +8 2:24 - Marvin back in game . . Score: 74 - 68 Atlanta . . +/- out of game: +4 1:38 - Foul on Marvin . . Didn't give up easy lay-up. ********* Final score: 82 - 76 Atlanta ********** +/- on the floor: even OVERALL GRADE: C- . . Not a spectacular game from young Marvin that night. He didn't impact the game much, but he played major minutes. Way too many negatives to point to in this outing. As far as the team goes, Smoove didn't let this team roll over and die. And once he proved the initial spark, JJ put us right back in contention. Childress also played a good game and ZaZa got to the line during those times in which we couldn't make a shot in the 4th quarter. Horrible start, but great finish. I'll take that. Positive plays: 4 Negative plays: 7 +/- in the game: +1 +/- out of game: +5 ((( NOTE . . . I can't see the Orlando game because it is on FSN South . . . Next Marvin update will be from the 76ers game )))

LOL . . . how am I'm not surprised to find out that I'm the only one so far that voted YES to that question? People are absolutely convinced that Woody is the worst coach in the NBA. He's not a great coach, but he's not the worst either. He's middle of the pack. If you put Doc Rivers, George Karl, Eddie Jordan, Flip Saunders, or any other of these non-elite coaches in the same situation with the Hawks, we wouldn't be any better off than we are now. Of course Woody can make up 5 games. But it all hinges on this team getting back to full strength. Woody gets all the blame when we lose, but NONE of the credit when we win. Well, consider this "Squawkers": - Playing zone defense have won us over 1/2 of our games this year. Woody recognizes when to play zone and when to stick with it. And when he goes to the zone, the vast majority of the time, he's going with his best athletic team on the floor, which sometimes include playing either Shelden or Smoove in the middle. That's not by accident. - People on this board like the fact that Chill plays a little PG. Well, who do you think is telling him to handle the ball and initiate the half court offense? Isn't Woody responsible for Chill's expanded role on this team? That's not by accident . . . it's out of necessity because of our PG situation. But those minutes could very well be going to a guy like Ivey or Salim, instead of Chill. But Woody recognizes that Chill can at least hold his own at the point for stretches in a game, and it allows him to keep JJ, Chill, Marvin and Smoove in the game at the same time. Once again, that's not by accident. - People on this board also have warmed up to Ivey playing a little more minutes, especially when T. Lue was out. Well, why do you think he was playing a little more? Personally, I still think Salim is the better offensive threat, but Woody recognizes that Ivey somewhat stabilizes the team on both ends of the floor. That's why he was getting time over Salim. That's not by accident. - The move to send ZaZa to the bench has hurt his play, but have improved the Hawks, especially defensively. That's not to say that Lo is a good defensive player, because he's not. But Lo does know how to man the spot defensively much better than ZaZa, so our defense is a lot more stable. ZaZa seems to being groomed to be that low post option coming off the bench that can go against 2nd team centers. In the long run, that may make him a more efficient player. That's not by accident. - Most importantly, Woody has completely made Smoove a better basketball player. But I guess all of you think Smoove developed himself . . . lol. More than any other player on this team, Woody has constantly been on Smoove, trying to get him to play smart basketball. We all know that he has the natural talent to play defense. But offensively, he had been a loose cannon. Woody was the guy telling Smoove to not settle for that 3 pointer or that 21 foot shot all the time. He's the one telling the kid to be aggressive in taking the ball to the hole. Smoove took 46 threes in 13 games in the month of November. Since then, he has taken 36 threes in 19 games. And while his FT% isn't great, he's getting to the line much more often and actually getting people in foul trouble. His transformation to a more stable player didn't become because he's "all of a sudden" decided to be a stable player. It has come because WOODY molded him into one. THAT'S NOT BY ACCIDENT! So you guys can keep up this "Woody is a horrible coach" routine all you want. Some of you need to open your eyes and not just focus on the things that the guy hasn't done, and look at what he has done. And I'll say this again. A Hawks team at full strength would be somewhere around the .500 mark right now. Only a top level coach would have us playing any better. This board is hilarious though. One one hand, some of you think that we have the talent to be much better than what we are . . . but the GM is terrible. On the other hand, Woody is the worst coach in the league, but we've played a total of 31 games without one or both of our PGs. What team could survive with both of their PGs out for significant stretches at a time? Woody definitely gets a C+ from me for this season so far. This team could've thrown in the towel a long time ago, but they haven't. That's not by accident.

I may revert back to posting the Marvin breakdowns in a single thread. I don't like how this looks in the other thread so far. We'll see.