TheNorthCydeRises

Quote: I literally JUST responded to the other post. This is good stuff, maybe you should keep them on a single thread so we can go back nd reference his progress or lack of it) throughout the season. Keep all the Marv love and hate in the same place? Thanks for doing this. I thought about doing that. So because you requested it, I'll keep it on one thread starting now.

Quote: The Hawks do not need Gasol that bad. Gasol is not a legitimate center. He is more of a PF than a Center. He can play Center some because he is around 7-1 / 240 lbs. He is very good offensively, but is not supposed to be very good defensively. The Hawks do not need another defensively challenged big man. He's not a legit center, but he is a guy that will shoot over 50% FG in just about every game. And he is a shot blocking threat. Gasol in the West is seen as a good center that has a few deficiencies. Gasol in the East may very well be an instant all-star, seeing how there are maybe 2 legit centers in this conference . . and even one of those guys ( Dwight Howard ), could be considered more of a PF than a center. It would be a good thing for the Hawks to get him. But you can't trade all of your bench to get him. Trade 2 people, and use that Indiana draft pick.

Actually Diesel, the Griz are bad because they've gone young . . much like we have. And they don't have a consistent go-to-guy to take some of the pressure off of Pau. Being here in Tennessee, I see just as many Grizzlies games as I do Hawks games. Pau's problem is that he gets frustrated with his sorry teammates when they take bad shots, or horribly miss defensive assignments. Pau hasn't quit on the Griz. He's very productive night in and night out. But it is demoralizing to know that you're probably going to lose by 10 or more points every night, just for the sheer fact that your teammates can't play defense to save their lives. Squawkers, I do agree with Diesel in the sense that Pau is somewhat of a whiner. He whines on the court and will whine to his teammates at times. But he does care about winning. Sending him here may put a bad taste in his mouth initially. Also understand this . . . it is better for this team to trade away that Indiana draft pick, plus guys like a Tyronn Lue and a ZaZa . . than to trade away Marvin or Chill in any deal. This is another deal in which the Hawks could get away with trading just ZaZa and Lue. But West would never go for that. So adding that 1st round pick that we're going to get from Indiana, may be the kicker in a deal like that. Lue at the point would be an upgrade from anything they have now. And he might see some value in ZaZa. But this team has to have depth. We can't trade away all of our depth, just for one good player in the middle. That 2002 - 03 team with JT, Reef, Big Dog, and Ratliff was a pretty decent starting lineup. But the bench was HORRIBLE. So if one of the starters had a bad game, there would be no one to pick up the slack, and the Hawks would lose almost every time. Smoove and Chill should be untouchable in any deal right now. It's too early to give up on Marvin, so he should be too. Plus, all three provide interchangeable depth at the 2, 3, and 4 positions if need be. If you deal anybody, it should be Shelden, seeing that we're getting a big back in that deal. The Griz need beef in the frontcout, and a decent PG, preferably a scoring one. Lue . . Shelden . . #1 pick from Indiana . . for Gasol. The Bulls would be nuts to give up either Hinrich or Gordon, so don't expect a deal with the Bulls to get done. But they do have an ace in the hole. The Bulls have the Knicks 1st round pick this year, as a result of that Eddy Curry trade. So the Bulls may be using that, along with other players, to possibly get a deal done.

1ST QUARTER 11:16 - Defensive rebound 11:00 - Posts up Wallace but is doubled and loses the ball. Hawks regain possession but doesn't score. 9:20 - Marvin goes hard to the hole after receiving a pass from Smoove. his dunk attempt is blocked by Okafor. 7:25 - Misses a 20 foot jumper. Shot contested by Carroll. 6:39 - Bad bass to Ivey that almost resulted in a turnover. Ball was deflected out of bounds. 6:38 - Chill replaces Marvin. Score: 7 - 6 Bobcats. +/- floor time for Marvin and Hawks: -1 5:32 - Marvin returns to game. Score: 12 - 6 Bobcats. +/- with Marvin out of the game: -5 5:01 - Learning from Friday night, Marvin doesn't go for Okafor's pump fake and stays on the floor. He keeps his hands straight vertical and makes Emeka take a tough shot, which he makes anyway. 4:31 - Marvin picks up a loose ball that ZaZa loses. He misses a lay-up because he is fouled. Knocks down 2 FTs 3:37 - He and Smoove do a poor job handling the pick and roll, wich leads to an easy Voskhul lay-up. 3:22 - Marvin immeadiately makes up for his defensive mistake by executing a screen and roll involving JJ and ZaZa, in which ZaZa finds him for an emphatic dunk. 2:15 - Marvin and Shelden cut off a driving Derek Anderson, who loses the ball. Marvin gets the ball and starts a fast break. He passes to JJ, who is able to get the ball back to marvin for an easy 4 foot teardrop shot. (( 2X positive plays for the good defensive play and initiating the fast break and finishing the break )) :33.8 - Marvin overplays on a steal, which lets Wallace drive to the hole, draw a foul, and get to the line. Bad decision to go for a steal in that situation :16 - Marvin's tip offensive rebound doesn't go in the hole. ********************* 2ND QUARTER 11:20 - Marvin drives to the hole, but his shot is blocked by Okafor. 10:15 - Plays good defense on Morrison, which forces him to miss a tough 15 footer. 9:49 - Good help defense to keep Wallace from making a lay-up. 9:28 - Ivey comes in for Marvin. Score: 28 - 22 Bobcats. +/- floor time for Marvin and Hawks: even. 6:37 - Marvin returns to game. Score: 36 - 24 Bobcats. +/- floor time with Marvin out of the game: -6. 3:13 - Marvin receives ball on the low block with Carroll on him. he makes a quick and decisive move to the right and hits a 4 foot baby hook/push shot. 2:01 - Marvin receives a pass just inside the 3-point line. He hesitates just a little to set his feet and drains a 22 foot shot. 1:26 - Makes an easy lay-up off of a pass from JJ. ( this could be a positive play, but the lay-up was easy, making it more of a routine play. Now if he'd missed the lay-up, it would've definitely have been a negative play. ) :36.6 - Defensive rebound. End of half score: Bobcats 48 - 43. +/- floor time for Marvin and Hawks: +7 *************** 3RD QUARTER 9:55 - Marvin hits an 18 foot jumper to cut the lead to 2. He was set to shoot the ball when he received the pass. 9:17 - Strong offensive rebound lay-up attempt blocked by Okafor. Hawks regained possession after Lo Wright picked up the loose ball. 8:53 - Tries to front Wallace on the post, but loses sight and feel of where Wallace is. Wallace receives a lob over Marvin's head and gets an easy lay-up. 8:33 - Finds Lo Wright at the FT line, who makes a wide open 15 footer. Assist to Marvin. 6:43 - Tip offensive rebound doesn't go in the hole. 4:55 - Thompson in for Marvin. Score; 61 - 57 Bobcats. +/- floor time for Marvin and Hawks: +1 :42.2 - Marvin returns. Score: 75 - 64 Bobcats. +/- floor time with Marvin out of the game: - 7 ***************** 4TH QUARTER 10:12 - Flashed down low to possibly help Batista on Okafor if he received the pass. Unfortunately, McGinnis sees this and passes the ball to Morrison, who is completely set to let a 3-pointer fly. Marvin couldn't rotate back to Morrison in time and A.M. knocks down the 3. 9:47 - Misses a 19 footer. Decent shot. 8:22 - Hits an open 20 footer after Chill drives to the hole and draws 3 people to him. Marvin's feet were set and he knocks down the jumper with ease. 8:01 - Gives a semi-hard foul to Wallace, who would've had an easy lay-up. 6:43 - Hits another 20 footer after receiving a handoff from Batista near the top of the key. 5:19 - Misses a 21 foot jumper. 4:59 - Wallace makes a driving lay-up over Marvin. Marvin was about 1/4 step behind Wallace, but was right there to contest the lay-up. 3:39 - Marvin steals a pass by Morrison. He then dribbles behind his back to elude McGinnis to start the fast break, and dishes to Ivey, who makes a tough lay-up. (( gotta give him 2X positive marks here, for making the steal, initiating the fast break, and making the pass to Ivey who finished the break )) Final score: 104 - 85 Bobcats. +/- floor time for Marvin and Hawks: -8. OVERALL GRADE: B+ . . . This may have been Marvin's best game of the year, from an offensive standpoint. He got lost a few times on defense, but even there, the man he was guarding didn't score a lot. Good all-around game from him. Number of positive plays: 12 Number of negative plays: 4 This is more of the ratio he needs to be at every game. Hopefully, he can have games like this in the future, when the rest of the team also plays well. Plus/minus floor time with Marvin in game: -1 Plus/minus floor time with Marvin out of game: -18 One GLARING thing I noticed in reviewing the tape, is that the team seemed to collapse every time Marvin left the game. His length obviously bothers small forwards and 2-guards, so they don't try to beat him off the dribble much. And it's hard for them to shoot over him when he's right on him. Smoove going out of the game killed this team for the sheer fact that Ivey ended up on Morrison a few times, which was a total mismatch. And Chill had a little trouble with the athleticism of Wallace. But dang, Marvin played 40 minutes in that game. So in the 8 minutes that Marvin didn't play, the Hawks got outscored by 18 points? Incredible. That's where you see not having a scorer like Lue in the game with that 2nd unit, really rears its ugly head. In the end, I think ZaZa's play is what really did in that team, because he was the one that should've been able to provide some decent scoring off the bench. After Lo picked up that 5th foul, we really needed him to step in and provide SOMETHING to the game. If he plays his normal offensive game, that would've offset some of the bonehead plays he made on defense. But because we got nothing from him offensively, he was a complete liability, and it hurt the Hawks tremendously.

Walter, your whole thing is that you see this team for what it is right now, and see absolutely no way that any of the guys we have on the roster right now, can develop into very good players. Yet, even you started a Smoove for all-star thread last week sometime. I think that in 2 years time: - JJ can become a top 10 player - Smoove can become a top 30 player - Childress can become our best all-around player - Speedy will be able to contribute in a big way, especially defensively - Marvin will become a solid starter that shows flashes of greatness. We both agree that the hole is in the middle. I'm just aren't willing to tank the season in order to get a chance to fill that hole. Teams have won titles with mediocre centers. But those teams were all around good defensive teams. That's what we must become in the near future. We have talent here. We don't need star talent at every position. We do need some serious upgrades in some areas. And we probably need a bench full of experienced players, before we start winning on a consistent basis. The Hawks are far from a doom and gloom scenario in the next 2 - 4 years. We just see things totally different. 35 wins for this team is FAR from a failed season for this team. It's an 11 win upgrade from last season, and we could easily blame the injuries for the 35 win mark. Changes will be made in the future to upgrade the team. Just not the changes you want.

LOL . . well, we'll never win then, because this team isn't tanking. Might as well find another team to root for, if you're expecting this team to tank just for the opportunity to get a top 3 pick. You gotta trust the kids Walter, even if you don't trust the coaches or the management. JJ, Chill, and Smoove will stedily improve over the years, and the Hawks shouldn't be a lower-echilon team in the years to come. Even if we don't get the big impact guy, we should get enough serviceable guys to man the middle, in order to get us to playoff level. And that's the goal right now, get to playoff level . . NOT win a championship. Even though a championship is the goal for every team, you also have to be realistic about your personnel and your chances to get to championship level. Bulls fans were talking "championship" when they acquired Ben Wallace. LOL . . they haven't improved any, if you ask me. But they're on the right track. But "championship" may still be 3 - 4 years away for them. Right now, it's important for them to just be a perennial playoff team, and get that much needed playoff experience in order to get them to championship level. But for us, we just have to crawl ( make the playoffs ), before we can walk ( actually do damange in the playoffs and compete for a title ).

LOL @ Atlas. The same way the Hawks go off on a T-Wolves team on the road, when the T-Wolves were one of the hottest teams in the league. We hit everything we threw up that night. And if Marvin hits 1/2 of his shots, we probably shoot 60% against the T-Wolves. That's just how sports are sometimes. We just caught a hot Bobcat team that could completely exploit all of our weaknesses. I mean, we shot 51% last night, and STILL got blown out. Things like that usually don't happen in sports. But it happened to us. I would've been more concerned about this team, if we came out and shot 40% again. But the offense and effort was there. Charlotte just shot lights out. Nothing you can do about that. And there's nothing the T-Wolves could do about it last Wednesday night when they played us. Coaching didn't lose that game last night, or the last Chicago game.

If you go to other arenas around the league, I think the Philips in-game experience is one of the better in the league. I know it's better than the Grizzlies, Bobcats, Magic and Pacers. Those are the 4 arenas I've been to in the past 2 years.

. . I'll say package Lue and ZaZa in some sort of deal, that can get us some frontcourt help. If both of those guys aren't scoring, they become complete liabilities. And they also make a collective 7.5 million over the next 2 years. Quesiton is . . . what team needs a backup PG that is really a 2-guard, and a PF/C that can come off the bench and score a little? And what kind of tangible asset can that team give us in return? Two guys that are very hot in trade rumors, are Andrei Kirilenko and Nazr Mohammed. Both of these guys seem to be out of the loop with their respective teams. Let's look at AK47 first. With his own owner recently saying that AK is on "thin ice" with his constant complaining, he's a guy that could possibly be dealt before the All-Star break. AK's problem, is that he's a PF in a small forward's body. Everything in his makeup is PF. He was at his best when he was the PF for the Jazz. But now at SF, he can't make that transition to guard people on the outside. And because he's not roming the paint, he can't be the shot blocking force that he was known for. I like to call Smoove the "Black AK47" because their games are so similar. A guy like that would be an instand upgrade for the Hawks defensively. And he'd fit the type of player that BK craves. Long, athletic, versatile. AK is also a very good passer, which may improve our halfcourt offense. His obvious problem, is that damn contract. He's under contract with the Jazz through 2011, and basically has a max deal ( 12.3 million this year . . . 17.8 million in 2011 ). To bring him on, means that we'll have to get rid of somebody that we may have to pay a lot of money in the future to sign. That means that either Childress, Marvin, or Shelden may be out of the mix when their 2nd contracts come up. Smoove is untouchable right now, in my opinion. A guy like Chill would fit in tremendously with the Jazz. So would Marvin. And I'll go a step further. A guy like Chill with the Jazz, could turn them into a legit championship caliber team, because he plays solid defense, shoots a high percentage from the field, and is the type of intelligent player that Jerry Sloan loves. So it goes back to your theory of acquiring a superstar player, or a good all-around player in this case. Do we trade a Childress or a Marvin just to get AK47? Or do we call Utah's bluff, and just give them the minimun in a deal, so that they can get rid of AK, his whining about his role, and his HUGE contract. The Hawks, believe it or not, could actually trade just ZaZa and Lue . . for Kirilenko. Lue would be a good guard to bring off the bench for them. ZaZa, I don't know. But if all they wanted to do is just get rid of AK47, they could, with that deal. But that's a HUGE MONETARY COMMITMENT for the Atlanta Spirit ownership to make. To make a move like that, you better be damn sure that AK will immeadiately impact the Hawks. ************ Now for Nazr. The Chris Webber move has essentially made Nazr a guy who can be used as trade bait. Again with Nazr, you're talking about a guy who just signed a long-term deal, but for a reasonable amount of money. He's the type of center that you can make a play for, without giving up one of the kids. So it goes back to what would Detroit want from us? I think they're satisfied with their frontcourt, with the acquisition of C-Webb. So maybe it's a guard they want. If they would be interested in Lue, we could trade him straight up for Nazr. The same goes for ZaZa, if they want him. *********** So what I'm saying, is that we do have options, without trading the kids. They're limited. But we don't have to do anything drastic just yet.

Quote: I am a 20 year Hawks fan. I can't take it anymore. Here is the recipe for success. 1.) Roll the dice. Sell the house far a second superstar. Good nba teams are two stars and role players who can accept second fiddle status. Give away draft picks (we can't draft astutely) and players (we can't develope players) and bring in a KG or J O'neal. 2.) Stop with the "building a nucleaus" talk for 3 reasons. A.) How long do we wait? Another decade? B.)It's not how teams are built in the NBA. Good teams pick and choose and have combination of veteran/young. c.) Any player we luck-up to draft and actually develope into a top player will jump ship after three years. 3.) Give us some reason to hope. Even if it's a risk. This organization has been so stuck looking in the future that the "looking to the future" talk has almost become a subconscious excuse to suck in the present. 4.) Excite the city now. Make it a place free-agents want to come. 5.) If we stay the course..We continue developing players for another ten years, are laughing stock of the nba and in the end, we probably leave the city. LETS WAKE UP FOLKS AND ROLL THE DICE. IT'S BETTER THAN ALWAYS SITTING ON YOUR HAND. The team we just played, the Bobcats, have NOT rolled the dice. In fact, they haven't even done what we've done . . acquired a superstar talent that can carry the team on most nights. But they seem to be on the right path to building a winner. And they're not willing to mortgage some of their young talent and do something drastic. 1) While you're dead on about good NBA teams having 2 superstar players with a bunch of role players, the problem with the Hawks is that we don't have enough reliable role players to guarantee that we'll be successful. The example I'll cite, is New Jersey. They have 2 all-star players in Kidd and Carter. And a very good 3rd player in Richard Jefferson. But they can't play consistent basketball on a nightly basis, because they're weak in the frontcourt and their bench is pretty horrible. After JJ, the only guys we can count on night after night, are Smoove and Chill. Marvin isn't consistent enough yet to be in that group. Who knows how Speedy and Lue will play after they come back. And Shelden is a rookie and still going through NBA growing pains. I see what you're saying though. But I'm afraid that to get the superstar player that you want, we'll have to give up either Smoove or Childress. Marvin's trade value may not be as high as either of those guys, so we'd have to trade our 2nd or 3rd best player. That might not be the thing to do right now. 2) LOL . . all teams build their nucleus A - I think our nucleus may already be set, with JJ, Smoove, and Chill. Remember, those guys have only played 1.5 seasons together. It's not like this current team have been playing with each other for 3 or more seasons B - Yes and No. When you look at a team like ours, we need those young players first, then, we can go out and add vets to the squad. The vets should be the role players that stabilize the team, not the young guys. When you look at the Bobcats, they've added a few vets to their young nucleus ( McGinnis and Derek Anderson ), and it has helped their team tremendously. What we need, are more solid frontcourt veterans who know how to play the game. Instead of settling to bring a Batista or a Solomon Jones off the bench, we need a solid vet to bring in. C - Not true. Money talks, and we have the most to offer a kid when he comes here. The more immeadiate concern, is Smoove. He'll be a big target next year. But how much money will a team spend to get a hybrid SF/PF? And the big question is WHO will have the cash to offer him a big contract? The Bobcats have the most money, but they already have their "Smoove" in Gerald Wallace. Their frontcourt is pretty much set, with Okafor, Wallace, and Morrison. The Bulls probably won't do it, because they acquired Tyus Thomas last year. The Raptors? Maybe . . if they decide to play Smoove at PF, Bosh at C, and Bargnani at SF. But even they don't have a pressing need to go after Smoove. The team that could go after Smoove, and this is scary, is ORLANDO. Grant Hill's deal expires this year. And they may have enough money to make a play for Smoove, after they lock up Nelson and Howard to big money contracts. The key for them, is what to do with Darko next summer. If they keep him, they won't go after Smoove. If they don't, he'll almost definitely be on their radar. 3) Reason to hope? There's plenty of reason to hope. I still say that this team would be at least 17 - 21, if some of our key people weren't out for extended periods of time. Losing a player for 2 or 3 games isn't a big deal. Losing a guy for weeks at a time, IS a big deal. And it's definitely a BIG DEAL for a young team like ours. And it's kept this team from gelling like they should. LOL . . this team STILL hasn't played one single game at full strength. That's amazing. I know people don't want to hear that, but it's the truth. You can't lose a Smoove, or a Chill, or your emotional floor leader in Lue, or your best PG and best defensive perimeter player in Claxton, for weeks at a time, and expect not to go through any turmoil. 4) LOL. Players flow in and out of this city all the time. The thing that makes free agents go to a team are: 1) winning and 2) money . . and not necessarily in that order. 5) But we haven't "stayed the course". In the last 3 years . . we've: - gotten rid of some huge contracts ( JT, Shareef, Ratliff, Walker, Harrington ), and used them to acquire a lot of young talent. - made a huge deal to bring in a franchise player, in JJ. - signed the 2nd best available PG last summer, in Speedy. Unfortunately, he's been hurt a lot. - acquired Shelden and Marvin in the draft, which have given us better depth. - seen Smoove and Childress blossom into some pretty good young players. If we're able to keep both guys, this team will have 2 solid players in ATL for a long time. I know going through losing is hard. But most teams don't make a jump overnight, especially after you completely blow up the team in Year 1. This is Year 3. Let this year play out, to see where we finish, and see what we can do over the summer. Then we can see if we can do some of those moves you suggest. The one thing you DON'T want to do, is trade some of our young talent, just to fill a need with a lesser talented player. The reality for Hawks fans, is that we're just going to have to let this play out. It's no time to panic yet. 32 - 36 wins is the number that most fans expected this year. A playoff berth is what most fans expected in 2007 - 08. So if that's the plan, we're right on target.

Quote: They lose 10 of 11. many of us give up on this season hoping for a brighter future. They win 3 in a row. Wonderful, the 8 seed is 3 games away. They then proceed to drop 2 in a row to arguably one of the worst teams in the league. Ultimately a 3 game winning streak may cost us a pick in one of the strongest drafts 1 to 3 in recent memory. Why do the Hawks punish us so? All we want to do is love them. LOL @ gsuteke. That's true. The Charlotte series was an opportunity blown for this team to be in a very good position going into next week. If we took care of business, we'd be sitting at 15 - 23 right now and would've been 2.5 games behind for that 8th seed. Now, it's compounded by a possible one or two game suspension of Smoove . . probably by Monday. And because we didn't even split with them, we're 5.5 games behind for that #8 seed. LOL . . but the good news is that we're in the same position we were in last week. 5.5 games behind for the #8 seed. And to put things into perspective, the Hawks are 4 - 4 in their last 8 games, so the team is somewhat stable, even though they seem to get sky high for games against playoff teams, and real low vs teams that are on their level. I said this about Detroit last week, so I'm going to say it about the Chicago game. Don't be surprised if this team comes out, and plays a very good game against the Bulls, even beats them. I say that because we do match up better against them, than we do against the Bobcats . . believe it or not. And the Bulls are a team that relies heavily on turning you over and getting their perimeter shooters going. Hinrich and Gordon have to play well, or one of them has to have an outstanding game, for them to win on a nightly basis. So we'll see how that game turns out. And if we get a surprise return by Speedy, it may help us out. Somebody will have to step up and make a conscious effort to hit the boards, with Smoove being out though. His suspension will probably come down before that Tuesday night game.

Quote: No Excuse... An excuse would have been... "Well, we didn't have all of our players.. or Josh Smith got ejected in game 2". However, what I'm stating is that the Bobcats have strengths that work against our biggest weaknesses. Namely low post scoring/rebounding and outside shooting. I don't call that an excuse, that's an observation. Usually the way we counteract that is that we run, however, they are a good running team too. The remedy is that we must find or develop a low post player if we plan on beating Charlotte... Diesel, all most Squawkers see, are wins and losses. They act like the Bobcats were this scrub team that gets blown out every night. It's crazy when you actually look at their schedule and see the teams that they've beat this year: - San Antonio - Cleveland - Detroit ( twice ) - Utah - Orlando - LA Lakers - Indiana That's 8 wins ( out of 14 ) against current playoff teams. And Squawkers forget . . the Hawks actually had the number of a particular playoff team last year, in which they won all 4 games against them. Indiana fans were asking those same questions about our team, when they watched the Hawks beat them 4 straight games. And why did we beat them? 1) beacuse of their injury situation and roster rotations last year 2) Because they had NO ANSWER for neither JJ nor Al Harrington . . . NONE. For the most part, professional sports teams are pretty much even, unless the other team have a few vastly superior players. The difference in winning and losing, is how your team overall matches up against your opponent. It's a reason why the Bobcats have beaten us the last 5 out of 6 times. We can't stop their frontcourt.

OK . . here we go 1ST QUARTER 11:24 - Marvin fights through a pick, but jumps too early. Carroll pump fakes and hits an open 21 footer 10:43 - Marvin defensive rebound 9:56 - Marvin misses 9 foot jumper . . Wallace played good defense 9:27 - Marvin misses 18 foot jumper . . Shot contested by Okafor 8:30 - Marvin misses 15 foot jumper at the FT line left elbow. Shot contested by D. Anderson and Hollins. He should've passed it to Ivey, who would've had a good look at a 15 footer outside the right elbow at the FT line 4:59 - Marvin fouled on dunk attempt by Okafor. JJ made a great pass to find him, and Marvin went up strong to draw the foul. He makes 2 FTs 4:24 - Marvin gets good post up position, shoots a 7 foot turnaround jumper, but the shot goes in and out. 4:09 - On a fast break started by a Salim defensive rebound and push, marvin makes a good pass to a streaking Childress, who lays it in and gets fouled 3:40 - Marvin just misses on a steal that leads to an Okafor easy dunk. If he plays position on Okafor, Emeka is 2 feet away from the basket, and probably makes the shot anyway. 3:13 - Shelden enters the game for Marvin. Hawks down 17 - 12 . . . - 5 points floor time for Marvin and Hawks ************* 2ND QUARTER: 9:45 - Marvin re-enters the game for Shelden. Hawks are now down 27 - 25. 9:15 - Marvin rotates to the weak side, after ZaZa does a terrible job of denying Okafor the ball. Emeka gives Marvin a little ball fake, Marvin jumps to block the shot, and Oakfor just lays the ball in. That was one time in which Marvin was probably better off staying on the floor and keeping his hands up. 8:23 - Marvin offensive rebound 7:57 - Marvin defensive rebound 7:25 - Marvin provides some good help defense on Okafor, which makes him try to pump fake Marvin. This time, he stays on the floor and forces a tough shot, which is blocked by Smoove. Unfortunately, Lorenzen grabs the loose ball, and immeadiately turns the ball over trying to get the ball to Chill. 4:03 - Marvin makes a nice mini-drive from the wing to the FT line. He then kicks the ball out to a wide open Smoove, who knocks down a 21 footer. 3:48 - Marvin foul on Wallace 3:37 - Salim comes in for Marvin. Hawks down 42 - 37. -3 floor time for Marvin and Hawks ( Bobcats go on a 11 - 4 run with Marvin out of the game, extends lead to 12 points at Halftime ) **************** 3RD QUARTER ( Score 53 - 41 ) 10:55 - Steal by Marvin, who leads the fast break and passes to Ivey, who makes a very tough lay-up. Good looking play by both guys. 7:24 - Marvin gets one hand on a rebound, but Wallace has good position on him and grabs the offensive rebound. He then immeadiately attacks the rim, driving past Marvin and scoring the lay-up. At worst, Marvin should've fouled him and put him on the line. Instead, he kinda backed off and didn't really contest the lay-up. 7:11 - Marvin hits an open 20 foot jumper. The difference in this shot, is that he had time to step into the shot, set his feet, and take the shot in good rhythm. 5:26 - Obviously feeling confident after his last jumper went in, Marvin shoots a 3 pointer after JJ draws 3 Bobcats into the lane and kicks it out to him. The shot was good looking, but it went halfway down, rolled around the rim once, and came out. 2:25 - Good post defense on Hollins that forces a wild miss from him. Unfortunately, the Cats got the offensive rebound ( theme of the night ) 1:36 - Marvin challenges Okafor at the rim, after receiving a good pass from JJ. But Okafor emphatically blocks his shot. This was the point in the game in which I knew the Hawks were pretty much done for the night. :30 - Marvin goes to the bench. Hawks down 71 - 57. - 2 floor time for Marvin and Hawks. ***************** 4TH QUARTER] ( Marvin returns to game at 9:04 mark . . Hawks down 82 - 57 ) 8:44 - Marvin makes strong drive to the hole vs Morrison to score a nice lay-up. Okafor wasn't in the game. 6:55 - After forcing Morrison to take a contested 20 footer, he and Solomon Jones lazily went for the rebound, which was gobbled up by Wallace. The extra possesion leads to a Carroll 3 pointer. 5:43 - Strong drive to the hole by Marvin past Wallace. He shoots a JJ-like floater in the lane that goes in. Okafor was in the game. 5:04 - Marvin shoots post-up baby hook over Wallace that bounces off the front rim. A good shot from the post that just didn't go in. 4:35 - Nice help defense on morrison to force a 5 foot miss from him. 3:40 - Marvin rotates to help Childress stop Morrison down the lane, who misses the 4 footer. Marvin then grabs the rebound, starts the 4 - 2 fast break, and dishes to Chill for the easy lay-up. 2:47 - Marvin takes a 3 pointer from the top of the arc after receiving a handoff from Shelden. Shot is long. He wasn't quite squared-up at the basket, even though he had time to go straight up and get good form on the shot. It looks like he was drifting slightly backwards as he shot the ball. 2:24 - Exits game. Hawks down 94 - 71. +2 for Marvin and the Hawks. ********************* GAME ANALYSIS Overall grade: C . . He didn't do too many things bad, he just didn't do too many things great either. Pretty much an average game, even if the FG% was low. Number of positive plays: 9 Number of negative plays: 5 For him to be effective in a game, I'd like to see him make about 12 or more positive plays in a game, while keeping his negative plays 1/2 of that or less. Plus/Minus floor time: - 8 That seems to be directly in correlation to the number of offensive rebounds the Bobcats got. Defensively, he played a decent game. Not necessarily a good game, but an OK one. Giving up offensive rebounds killed us last night though. OK Squawkers. That's about the most unbiased, critical breakdown that you're going to get on this board about Marvin. I'll do the same thing for tomorrow night's game.

Since there has been so much said about Marvin and his play, I've decided to do an extensive game breakdown of his night ONLY, on the games that are on SportSouth. If I'm able to tape the game in my area, I'll give the breakdown. Here's how it will go. Routine plays will be in regular text. They include: - easy made lay-ups in which no one contests his shot and doesn't come off of an assist. - missed shots that are fairly good shots - rebounds in which he's the one that should get the rebound - deflections that don't lead to turnovers ( basically, I'm talking about routine basketball plays that doesn't necessarily affect the outcome of a game or has a positive or negative effect on a particular possession ) Positive plays will be in bold black. They include: - good looking made shots - 3 pointers - tough made shots - assists on a play - plays in which he plays good man, zone or help defense ( this will vary ) - good tough rebounds in traffic ( not routine rebounds ) - deflections that lead to fast breaks - steals and/or blocks negative plays will be in bold red text They include: - turnovers - bad shots - missed defensive assignments - bad fouls - lazy plays that lead to points or give up points - other type of negative plays that either negate a possession or leads to a score by the other team. Plus/minus floor time stats ( as far as team points go ), will also be cited.

Hawks do win . . . JJ over 23 pts . . . Ivey over 3 pts . . . Childress over 15 pts . . . Marvin over 35% FG . . . over 4.5 3's . . . Wallace over 9.5 rebs . . . Morrison under 18 pts . . . Shelden over 6.5 rebs . . . Josh under 3.5 blks I had a feeling last night's game would be kinda ugly for us . . but not like that. Expect the Hawks to play a lot more inspired tonight. Not predicting a score though . . I don't want to jinx them.

Hawks by 5 more .... Jj under 28 .... Solo under 9 min .... Jj over 6 dimes .... Chill under 9 rebs .... Shell over 7 rebs .... Adam under 16 pts .... Salim over 10 pts .... Marvin under 15 pts .... Smoove under 4 blks .... Hawks win ugly tonight 92 - 84

this board has traded smoove and chill when they were also playing terrible. and this board was dead wrong in doing so. and you're going to be dead wrong about marvin too.

The Brewer kid from Florida is one of the best defenders in college b-ball. I could defnitely see BK taking him, if a big man or a real good PG isn't available. He's the type of guy you could insert into a game to replace what Salim gives us. Brewer is a long defender who can guard 2's and 3's with ease. And he might be even more athletic than both Chill or Marvin. Definitely BK's type of player.

Quote: The weird thing is that he seems to jump before catching the ball. Yeah, I don't know what that's all about. It's like he's hopping into position, then shooting it. And what irritates me about your "boy" Salim, is that he'll catch the ball and take that one dribble, before he shoots it. It's almost like he refuses to catch and shoot. He has to take at least that one bounce, then let it fly, while leaning toward the basket. He had a shot last night in which he got a pick at the top of the 3 point line by ( I think Ren ). Salim takes that one dribble around the pick, and lets it fly from 3. Now he could've easily taken 2 more dribbles to get to the top of the circle or even the FT line, but he settled for the 3. If he'd stop doing things like that, even Salim could turn things around.

Quote: You also have to wonder if this is the first time in Marvin's life that basketball is difficult. That is, this maybe the first time that he has had problems scoring. Once he figures out how to make it work, he's going to be a very good player. Exactly. You see this go on in other sports all the time. How about that hot shot minor league prospect, who tears the cover off the baseball in AA ball . . . but can't hit a good slider to save his life in MLB. Then, after a year or so, he gets comfortable, and regains his stroke. LOL . . and who made our schedule for the next 6 games? I didn't notice this at first, but we have 3 consecutive back-to-back games coming up. I've never seen that before in an NBA schedule.

Quote: I watched part of the Miami v. someone (I can't remember right now) the other night. The announcers brought up that Jason Kapono who is now in his third year has really improved. He was shooting over 50% on his threes over the past few weeks. The consensus is that he just needed to get some confidence. What does that have to do with Marvin? Well if you watch him you can tell he has no confidence in his shot. If Jason Kapono can become an impact player on offense, then Marvin certainly can, we just need to support the guy. I like the way Marvin is playing. He's taking some shots, even though they aren't falling. He is playing solid D and getting boards. His passing is very good. In all, players mature at different rates depending on their personalities. Marvin, IMO, is a guy that is a little slower at developing than some. He doesn't have the chip on his shoulder like Smoove did/does. MW doesn't have the college success of Childress. What he does have are a group of teammates that obviously want him to succeed *see how many high fives and pats he got last night*. I still believe in the guy and will give him another season and a half to show that he can be an offensive force. I think he is a team force right now. You guys are kind of missing the boat on what is Marvin's problem. It's not that he doesn't have any confidence in his shot. People that lack confidence in their shot, don't shoot at all. His problem is the same problem that Salim is going through. Both of those guys are rushing their shots, instead of taking them in a good rhythm. One of the hardest things to do in basketball, is shoot on the move. And it seems as if every shot that Marvin takes, is on the move. Smoove used to do the same thing, but he's settled down considerably when taking his jumper. He gets in a nice set position as the ball arrives. By the time he catches it, he's ready to let it fly in a good rhythm. That's all Marvin needs to do . . slow down before he catches the ball. Salim is the same way. Once both of those guys do that, you'll start seeing better shooting from them.

Quote: Most young players escalate their play during their third seasons. Childress and Smith are prime examples. Only the people that don't truly know basketball, don't know this. So many "star" players have shown signs of life at the end of their 2nd year. And by year 3, they're ready to "fulfill their destiny" as a ballplayer. My only concern about Marvin, is that the Hawks are trying to force-feed him into becoming one of the top 3 players on this team. I wouldn't be mad to see him go to the bench, but I still want him to play 30 minutes a game to get some much needed experience. But I love the fact that the rest of his game isn't suffering, just because his shot isn't falling right now. All ballplayers go through this at some point in their careers. You just have to fight through it and find your rhythm. When he does, he'll start being a highly efficient player.

flava, good observation about marvin. i just finished watching the tape of the game, and the only thing i see him doing wrong, is trying to force things. he's not letting the game come to him and he's rushing shots. smoove used to do the same thing. i'd still like for marvin to come off the bench, but other than his shot, he's playing decent b-ball. the problem with this board, is that they judge a guy from night to night, instead of long term. some people even didn't believe in jj.

@ Minny vs Char @ Char @ Chi @ Bos @ Orl vs Phi vs Orl vs G-St vs Tor @ NJ vs LAL @ NJ These next 13 games will shed some light on how the rest of this season may go. This is the easiest stretch in the Hawks schedule, so if they're going to make a move, it's going to be right here. And we have to make some type of move before that February road trip before the All-Star game. The end of February schedule is a killer, so this team needs to have their confidence at their highest, before going into those stretch of games. A few scenarios: Hawks go winless: An 0 - 13 mark means that the season is over ( overall 12 - 36 record ). The tank crew will be out in full force, and it will be hard to dispute anything that they say. Oden, here we come . . hopefully. Hawks go 3 - 10: At 15 - 33 and 18 games under .500, it will be hard not to question if we need to move some players for the future, or "stay the course" and play out the season. Hawks go 5 - 8: A real possibility here, if this team misses their point guards tremendously. A 17 - 31 record would be the best record for the Hawks in 4 years. And it might still keep playoff hopes barely alive. But like I said, that end of Feb schedule is a killer. Hawks go 6 - 7: The season would be stable at this point, but at 18 - 30, we'd probably make up very little ground on the people ahead of us. And by this time, Shaq Diesel may be back in the mix. This is an acceptable outcome for these stretch of games, but it wouldn't bode well for playoff hopes. The talk of building "team chemistry" would be the focal point here. Hawks go 8 - 5 : Talk would be very positive on this board for the most part. And from a realistic standpoint, this is probably the best mark we can hope for from the Hawks. 20 - 28 would be our record here. If the competition ahead of us is still playing .500 basketball, you're talking about the Hawks being about 3 games out of that 8th spot. Hawks go 10 - 3: I don't see this happening unless Marvin or Salim really plays well during this stretch, along with JJ, Smoove, Chill and ZaZa. This would be almost the perfect storm for the Hawks, and put us right back in the conversation for playoff contention. At 22 - 26, this would be the Hawks best record in the first 48 games of the season . . since 1999. We could even afford to lose some of those games in the end of February, and not be out of the hunt. Hawks go undefeated: Total pipe dream that will only happen if everybody is playing perfect basketball. If it did, we're 25 - 23, and probably the #8 team in the East. And we would be a tough out for any team in the league, even the elite ones. People would have to retract a lot of comments made about the team, the coach, and the GM, if that happened. So these next 13 games should tell us a lot about this team.

Young star on the verge . . Emeka Okafor. Maybe the Bobcats are the team that pulls the trigger, and brings JO to Charlotte. Charlotte has a lot of decent young players, but no stars. But seeing the players that Indy picked up, they may opt for Adam Morrison . . lol.