TheNorthCydeRises

Quote: i told the people over at RealGM's Indy board that their defense would go in the tank this year with Harrington. they told me he was a great defender becore he came here. i predicted their points allowed would go up by 5 a game the second they traded for Harrington. I'm sure that has come to fruition, although scoring D seems to be up somewhat league wide. O'Neal has to be the next shoe. this screams rebuilding to me. I agree. Don't be surprised if JO is dealt next. But if you deal JO, it has to be for a young player who is on the verge of becoming a borderline superstar. If they trade JO for expiring contracts . . lol. BK looks like a genius in that Hawks/Pacers trade now.

Quote: Quote: This will set up Indiana for a fall. ...play angry, with a chip on their shoulder, assuming either have any chips. We'll see. I expect a short-term "fall" until the All-star break none-the-less. It appears, however, that Indy could be "tanking" to some degree. They heard the words of JO. "If it ain't gonna get better (than mediocrity) somehow, then why am I here?" W LOL . . I'm glad you said that Walter. Now THAT'S how you tank a season. You get a bunch of decent, but non-impact players, just to get rid of a guy who is a PR nightmare in Indy ( Stephen Jackson ). If you're a Warriors fan, you have to be elated right now. You get 3 guys who could really excel in that system that Nellie is running out in G-State right now ( S-Jax, Al, Sarunas ). If you're an Indy fan, you have to be saying "uh oh". Murphy is a banger that doesn't play defense. Dunleavy sure in the heck doesn't play D and his jumper is off. Only Digou has a chance to really benefit from this trade . . but only if he starts. I look at Indy right now, and I don't see one guy outside of JO that can take over a game. Al and S-Jax showed that ability every once in a while. Now, they don't have it. Fall back Indy . . fall all the way back.

No they didn't Atlas. Most mocks had us taking Marvin or Bogut ( if Milwaukee didn't take Marvin #1 ), not Chris . . and definitely not Deron. Marvin and Bogut were the consensus #1 and #2 in just about every mock draft that year. Deron was never ahead of Chris an any mocks that I saw during that time. And there were serious questions about whether Paul was big enough to really excel on the pro level. But once Utah tipped their hand about loving Deron, Deron moved ahead of Chris on most boards. If Paul were 6 - 3, he'd probably been the consensus #1 pick that year. But because Paul is only Speedy Claxton size ( 5 - 11 . . 6 feet ), most "experts" thought that his size would limit the chance of him truly becoming a great player on the next level. To take Paul in the top 2, people would've have to truly believe that he was the 2nd coming of Isaiah Thomas. And most "scouts and GMs" didn't. They thought that he'd be good, but nothing like this in his first few years in the league. That's why Deron went before Paul. And that's why the Hawks didn't take Paul. In hindsight, they were probably mistaken, with Paul being even better than most people expected out of the gate. But the NBA love taking guys with "potential". And when you look at comparing Chris and Ray Felton, some people even thoguht Felton would be better on the next level. You know who Chris Paul was essentially? He was Vince Young. A guy who people knew had the talent, but still questioned everything about him, for whatever reason. But experts also thought Vince was, at the very least, a 2 - 3 year project type player for the Titans, much like Steve McNair was. Vince won the ROY when he got a chance to take over the QB spot, but you can't blame a team for taking Reggie Bush ahead of him. But on the flip side of that, Marvin Williams may very well be the Mario Williams of that draft. He's a player who was taken a few spots higher than what he should've been, and isn't seen as the impact player that Bush or Young would've been for a team coming right out the gate. Marvin was always seen as that 2 - 3 year "project" player that need development, before he blossomed into a potential star. But like the Texans, the Hawks probably passed on a player that could help them immeadiately, instead of a guy who could be the better player in the long run. Like Marvin with Chris and Deron, people love to compare Mario with Reggie and Vince. Fact is, that's unfair to Mario and Marvin, just because they were picked ahead of those guys. What Reggie and Vince do, has nothing to do with how Mario develops as a player. Sure, the Texans may regret in the short term for taking Mario. But the kid, in the long term, may turn into a very good player for them. But he also may not be the superstar players that Vince and Reggie may become. That's how I look at Marvin for us right now. Of course most Hawk fans would prefer Chris running the point for us right now. Even I would. But that's not Marvin's fault. And most Texans fans would definitely prefer Vince or Reggie, especially when you look at their offense. But that's not on Mario either. Eventually, Hawk fans are going to have to stop crying over not taking Paul. You play the hand that was dealt to you, and make the best of it. And you're going to have to trust all of those scouts and your GM that Marvin can turn into a good player in this league. Most importantly, you can't change the past. And if you dwell on something like that, it'll literally drive you crazy as a fan. One more thing. Even if Marvin doesn't reach "superstar" status, I'd settle for him being a good consistent type player for this team. If Marvin, in a year or two, can get his shooting % close to the 45% - 47% range, while averaging 14 - 16 ppg, I'd definitely take that from him. JJ is the star of this team, so it's not imperative that Marvin be that 2nd guy, especially if Smoove or Chill are more ready to be that 2nd guy. Who in their right mind wouldn't take this from the Hawks? JJ - 25 ppg . . 4 rebs . . 4 assists . . bonafide star Smoove - 16 ppg . . 8 rebs . . 4 assits . . 3 blks . . the "do it all guy". Chill ( 6th man ) - 15 ppg . . 6 rebs . . 3 assists . . over 50% FG Marvin - 14 ppg . . 5 rebs . . 3 assists . . 46% FG . . a good complimentary player to JJ. I know that's far from the impact that a #2 pick should have, but if those 4 guys can be the core of this team, the Hawks will definitely be more than OK in the future. Marvin is signed through 2009. He's not going anywhere anytime soon. The Hawks would be stupid to trade him for a need player with less talent. Once he finds his comfort zone as an offensive player, we'll see how good he can be. Right now, he's just an inconsistent young ballplayer. And Hawk fans have no choice but to live with that, until he breaks out of it. The questions people need to ask themselves now is these: What do you think is the ceiling for Marvin as a player? And if that's your ceiling, does that help or hurt the Hawks? Don't compare any other players when you ask yourselves these questions. Just focus on Marvin ALONE and ask yourselves these questions.

it's easy to tell the ages on this board. our young posters always take extreme positions which are irrational. fact is, bk would be idiotic to give away marvin after just 1.5 years of evaluation.

.... and we're still not at full strength yet. when speedy comes back, there's no telling how good this team will look.

this board makes of laugh every day. if some of you aren't firing the coach or the gm, you're trading off one of our top 7 players. fact is we need every one of these guys right now. this board constanty traded chill and smoove last year. now its marvin. don't you guys get it yet? young players are inconsistent. they need time to find their game. i agree that marvin should be benched, but trade him? lol. this kid will eventually turn the corner, just like chill and smoove did.

funny you guys talk about salim. i had a dream that we lost today's game 161 - 149 in 2ot. salim had 36.

not really. lo was a dang good big man go college. and bryant and oneal were hs kids.

interesting to see 6 teams that are almost sure locks for the playoffs, ranked below us in this list. it makes smoove that much more important. he can take away poss. on the def. end

first it was przybilla. then sene. then bynum. now oden. walter, we all know that we need a center, preferably a defensive one. even you were willing to settle for a role playing defender. now, you're obsessed with oden. when the titans showed some life, they couldn't just decide to tank because the playoffs seemed like a pipe dream and risk losing a chance at johnson. having the new titans taste what it is like to win, was more important. and the same goes for us.

oh i get now walter. you don't believe that jj changes our destiny. he's the hawks version of vince young. he's the guy that this franchise has to be built around. he's not the leader that vince is, but he has kind of superstar ability. but in your mind, it's impossible for a healthy hawks team to salvage the season under joe. and the titans didn't tank the season to get vince . if anything, the tank was on this year, when they traded mcnair. the players had other thoughts though.

vy made plays when it counted, which gave the entire team confidence. then pac man jones made plays. then travis henry. then other players made plays. it was a total team transformation. they won in so many ways, even with luck. vy gets the credit, but even he knows that it was all team.

.. and that journeyman pg also did the same thing for milwaukee and minnesota.

also....there have been so many examples in sports, in which bad to mediocre teams had to go through growing pains, before they achieved greatness. the "tank crowd" has obviously never played an organized sport before. losing brings on so many hardships to the psyche of a team and an organization. the clippers are a perfect example of how high draft picks guarantees you nothing in this league. it took a 2nd round journeyman pg with championship experience, to get them where are today.

it's not that the atlantic winner doesn't count, it's just that we're not competing against them for an 8th seed. the winner of the atl. gets at least a top 4 seed.

lol. titans start 0-5. fans talk about giving up so they can get tech wr calvin johnson, arguably the best wr since randy moss. titans win some improbable games and gain confidence. then they start to beat playoff caliber teams. in all they win 8 of last 11, but miss playoffs and the chance to take johnson. but now, the team and fan base are optimistic as ever about future. why? because you have to learn how to win first now, before becoming a champion later in life.

lol ex. philly fans despise daly. don't let those % fool you. daly might shoot 2 jumpers a game. and if he doesn't block your shot, he's a sub par defender.

Quote: Quit being a silly little straw-man maker. Why use "essentially" unless you aren't going to tell it straight. I'm suggesting telling these players no such thing. I'm telling them, "Play great, play hard, give it your best. We are making decisions that could negatively affect this season's prospects in hopes of acquiring you guys the important star level post presence talented wing-players and prospects like yourselves need and deserve. Too long have you been asked to play without a true and potentially dominant center. That is our error and we intend to rectify it.None of our long-term desires relating to you change. In fact, should we acquire this dynamic post player in the top 3 of this year's draft we will NOT have to attempt to acquire one in other ways which likely would have meant a trade of one of you. We are choosing this course in part to reinforce our commitment to you as a unit. That is precisely why we want you to play to your best ability individually and as a team, develop together, and proceed optimism. We cannot promise that the decisions we make in the short-term will make all or any of you very happy. We do not expect competitors to be happy about this. We do expect you to be professional and open minded to our direction. Address us with your concerns. Realize it is because of your potential as a unit, and yet your need for help in the post to reach contention, that we made the decision to (trade Lue for example)..."Did I say "essentially" anything in that. No. I said it. The "fatal flaw" in any other "theory" is the odds are even FAR worse. You play the odds or get played.W LOL @ this BS. You'd make a pretty good politician. Maybe you should run for Congress.LMAO @ "address us with your concerns".*****Chill - "dangit BK, I'm tired of busting my butt for 3 quarters, only for you to "give the signal" for me to start messing up at the end. This isn't cool at all."BK - "Chill . . chill. Understand that we're doing this, so that we can have a "shot" to get Oden. It may only be a 25% shot, but it's a shot that we need to take. And look at it this way. It'll make us better as a team, even if you guys aren't developing the type of chemistry with each other that you should right now. If we get Oden, we won't have to trade you or Marvin, to get a big man. We'll trade Shelden or ZaZa, to make sure you guys get to play more. Now get out of my office, and do your dang job."Chill - "yes sir." ( head down )*********Then, when the Hawks fail to get that #1 spot, but take Durant, Chill AND Smoove tell people "off the record" that they're tired of losing, and want to be traded from the Hawks . . . ala Al Harrington. They also say that they're definitely not signing extensinos when their contracts are up. Hawks panic, and trade both Smoove and Chill for veteran expiring contracts, seeing that they're not competitive right now.Then JJ demands to be traded, and the ish hits the fan. Reconstruction all over again.

It's no doubt that Oden was a force in the middle in that game . . at least in the first half.He was outstanding . . 16 points and 10 rebounds.2nd half, the Vols adjusted to him and held him to 8 points and 5 rebounds.UT is a trapping/running team that likes to shoot 3s. Their young post players don't usually put up great numbers anyway. But Oden's presence definitely made them more perimeter-oriented.Oden will definitely be able to defend on the next level. But from what I've seen of him this year. A guy with a big body can definitely limit what he does offensively, and on the boards.

Quote: "Usually" "fatal flaws" aren't conditional. "Usually" a team that tanks is an awful team with no talent or over-the-hill talent who owns the rights to and has no conditions on their pick and who has ownership who will spend to improve. We're not that bad of a team, our talent isn't over-the-hill, we don't own our own pick unless it's top 3, and our ownership situation is the worst in professional sports. There is nothing "usual" about our situation as if what usually happens means jack. Teams don't "usually" have their best player injured and win the draft lottery, but I guess SA should have given the GD pick away or "traded everybody" because it wasn't "usual" how they came about it. Get real. As "usual", you don't get it. Your entire argument on this, is based on the prospect of getting Oden. Without Oden, your entire plan of action puts this team in more harm, than good. LOL . . you're the same guy that tried to sell this board on the advantages of acquiring Saer Sene over Shelden Williams. But say we don't get Oden, but obtain one of the top 3 picks. If we get Durant, we either have to trade one of the current kids we have now, or possibly even trade Durant to get something that we need. It would be counter-productive to either Chill/Marvin/or Shelden, to then add Durant to the squad. One or two of those guys would have to go, for Durant to have an immeadiate impact off the bench, or as a starter. If we get Noah, we could keep him. But he may or may not can play center in the NBA. He's a PF by nature, just like Shelden is. ( 6 - 11 . . 230 . . which is essentially the same size as Solomon Jones . . 6 - 10 . . 230 ). It's conceivable that ZaZa would still start over Noah next year, with Noah coming off the bench as a light center, much like Solomon is now. So the only way this works out to our best advantage, is if Oden were GUARANTEED TO US. And you said it yourself, we're not "that bad" of a team. And you already know that we're at least a top 10 team in the East, when healthy. So the ONLY way we're a top 3 pick in this draft, is if 1) people still keep getting hurt . . 2) we don't make the playoffs but somehow get lucky wiht the ping-pong balls . . or 3) the GM completely shuts one or more of our key players down ( JJ, Smoove, Chill, etc ), citing some injury . . which would cause some suspicion about whether we're keeping these guys out on purpose, to obtain that top pick. The fact is that this team, if they can get healthy, could very well make a run to put themselves in a position to make the playoffs THIS YEAR. And even if they don't make it, they could set themselves up for next year to be a really good team. While you use the San Antonio example of 1997, I'll use the Orlando of 2005 - 06 example, as what can happen when a young team comes together at the end of a season. ************** January 22nd 2006 . . the Magic were a 18 - 22 ballclub. Then, the bottom fell out of their season. An injury to Jameer Nelson, which didn't seem like a big deal at first, turned out to be the killer for the Magic's season. They had won 3 games after his initial injury but ended up losing 11 of their next 12 games, which led to the trading of Steve Francis. They were 19 - 33 at that point, so maybe they were doing just what you suggest the Hawks do this season, and "tanking", by dealing their "best" player in Francis. They deal Francis, and they still lose 4 of their next 5 games. Jameer comes back, and they lose the first 3 games that he plays. In all, the Magic went from a team 4 games from .500 ( 18 - 22 ), to a team that freefell all the way to a 20 - 40 ballclub within a 6 week span. That's losing 18 out of 20 games. If you were the Magic GM, you'd probably root for that team to "tank" the rest of the season, get a top 3 pick that would land you a Tyus Thomas or a LaMarcus Aldridge to play alongside D-Howard. Or even get a Brandon Roy to put in the backcourt with Nelson. Just don't win any games, or at the very least, don't get out of that top 3. So what do the Magic do? They KEEP FIGHTING. They say "we're not this bad of a team, and we're going to prove it." That team then wins 16 of their next 20 games and put themselves in position to obtain an outside playoff spot. There is jubilation in Orlando because they saw a team that looked dead in the water with Francis, to a team that scraps and claws in every game under Nelson and Howard. The fans completely fall in love with that team. Even if the playoffs were an outside shot, they're enjoying how hard this team is playing now. They finish the year 36 - 46 . . miss out on the playoffs . . and miss out on obtaining a top flight player in the draft. But they build something more important than picking up a top draft pick. THEY BUILD TEAM CHEMISTRY So what does that team do in 06 - 07? They start the season by winning 15 of their first 19 games. And this time, when the injuries start to hit ( Turkoglu, Nelson ( for a few games ), and Hill ( for a few games ), they're able to survive and overcome their absence. So that Magic team, that should've "tanked", by your estimation . . is now sitting at 22 - 15 and is the current #2 seed in the Eastern Conference. Now THAT'S how you build a damn winner. You play with the talent you have, tweak it, and develop the type of team chemistry that leads to victories.

Salim plays better when we play fast. Even in the past 2 - 3 weeks, when the offense has been struggling, Salim has played fast. It's just that he's settled for all of those long jumpers. I know when I jumper wasn't falling, my coaches used to tell me, and the rest of the guards, to set up "one step closer to the basket". So for Salim, he shouldn't worry about knocking down a 3-ball. He was a 50% shooter from 3 in college. Some of those were from NBA range, but a lot of those were from 21 feet and in. So that's where I'd tell Salim to set up . . right inside the 3 point line. He might turn into a more efficient shooter if he did that. Don't shoot from 25 feet . . shoot from 20 feet.

Quote: I don't know if you want odds, I'm not going to make any up. I think that the odds of this core ever succeeding together is better if they start learning how to hit big shots and grind wins out together. I think that if this team disintegrates this year and they all hate each other and the city, even if we do get lucky and get Oden, we would not be that much better off than if they rallied and won 30 something wins this year and contend for the playoffs. I don't know if Joe would still want to be here, he might ask to leave before too long. We might have to start over. If we rally and keep this team, and just add the Indy pick (PG), we wouldn't have as much talent, but we'd have something to build on. On the other hand, if you tank and miss out on Oden, you've destroyed everything. You'd basically have to blow the team up and start all over. Morale would be destroyed. I'm not willing to gamble with flat out bad odds, when the results would be absolutely disastrous if we miss out. Lascar, please save this, and post this quote EVERY DAY if you have to on this board. These guys have no idea how losing wears on a player. They think that fans have it worse. No one has it worse than the players that actually play the game. As a Bengals fan, I saw a guy like Takeo Spikes have absolutely NO CONFIDENCE whatsoever in the Bengals organization, after they hired Marvin Lewis. Marvin desperately tried to convince Takeo that they could turn things around, but Takeo was tired of the losing, and left. The same happened wtih Corey Dillon, but we had enough talent to replace Dillon, in Rudi Johnson. At least Dillon got lucky, and was able to be dealt to the Patriots, and win a Super Bowl. But 4 years later, Takeo is still losing with the Bills, while the Bengals haven't had a sub .500 season since Marvin arrived, and have made the playoffs once ( should've been twice, this year ). TKO doesn't regret his decision, so he says. But I can understand why he left, and didn't want to wait on a young Bengals team to get to that next level. The exact same thing could happen to a Josh Childress or to a Josh Smith . . or both, if you tell them that you're not trying to win this year, just so you can have a chance to get a center to help you next year. Most athletes aren't wired to just "give up". And when you play 1/2 speed, that's when you can get hurt forreal.

Oden played well against my Vols today, even though we should've won that dang game. Can't knock Oden for scoring 24 points and grabbing 15 rebounds. LOL . . but I think I can. This is Tennessee's starting frontline: - Duke Crews ( 6 - 7 . . 233 lb freshman, who essentially plays center for the Vols ) - Dane Bradshaw ( 6 - 4 . . 205 lb senior, the heart and soul of our ballclub. He's essentially our version of "Randy Foye" last year at Villanova. Dane is listed as a guard, but he guards Power Forwards on the defense end ) - the other 3 starters are 6 - 2. frontline players off the bench: - Wayne Chism ( 6 - 9 . . 245 lb freshman . . . our "bruiser" who sees time at center ) - Ryan Childress ( 6 - 9 . . 238 lb sophomore . . our version of Raef LaFrentz . . he can shoot jumpers Crews and Chism had the pleasure of guarding Oden most of the game. LOL . . on thing is for sure. Oden won't see any 6 - 7 centers guarding him in the NBA. Great game by the kid regardless.

LOL . . great posts Lascar. CBA's and Walter's fatal flaw in their "tank" theory, is that they truly believe that if this team just shuts it down, that everything will be OK either this year or the next, if we get an Oden, Durant, or a Noah at the center. The reality is that when teams usually obtain that high of a pick in the draft, they usually get rid of all of their players from the previous year, and completely rebuilds the team around the pick. So when those 2 talk about "tanking a season", you're essentially telling guys like Smith, Johnson, Childress, and Williams to not develop any chemistry with each other this year, and not win any games. And you're essentially telling each of those guys to not improve their overall games. And if you're telling them that, why not just trade them all away? The question is . . how do you tell 4 players that talented to "hold back", and not try to win, when it was obvious that they were very capable of winning games earlier in the season? As horrible as people say this team is, they forget that the Hawks had 5 games in which they lost by 5 points or less in November alone. Two of those losses were at the buzzer, on consecutive nights. Another loss happened after thsoe two buzzer losses, in which D-Wade hits an impossible 3 pointer to tie a game and eventually lead the Heat to a 5 point win. That's a 7 - 1 start if the Hawks hold on ( without Marvin and with Speedy less than 80% ), from a team that is supposed to be so horrible and so far away from contending for anything. The multiple injuries and the recent play of these guys, have duped 90% of the Hawk fans on this board into believing that this team couldn't possibly win 35 games this season, so why even try? ( By the way, the #8 seed will probably be had by a team with 35 - 40 wins ) And according to them, our GM has done such a bad job, that we don't have enough talent already to not only be a competitive team, but make the playoffs as well. This board is funny like that. The GM is horrible, but we have enough talented players that are appealing to other teams, so that we can get better players here. And the coach is horrible, but we won a game last night without BOTH of our PGs and without our ONLY low post threat against the best team in the East, who were only missing Billups. And since injuries can't be used as an excuse for the Hawks, it shouldn't be used as an excuse for teams like the Pistons and Clippers, when they're missing one of their top players. ( Billups and Cassell ) LOL . . but when we beat teams like that who are hurting, it's always "oh, but so-and-so didn't play tonight. That's the only reasonw why they won." It's those kinds of contradictions in beliefs that have me laughing at this board all of the time. It also questions me to even believe that 1/2 of you guys even know anything about basketball. Most of you know ABOUT the game. Most of you definitely have knowlege of basketball history. But at least 1/2 of you know very little about the interworkings of the game and the mentality it takes to play at a high level night in and night out. Then you see comments in other threads last night like . . "wow . . who kidnapped the Hawks?" "why doesn't this team play like this all the time?" "they're playing with so much energy tonight". . . . when, if they actually LOOKED at was going wrong with this team the past 2 weeks, they'd see that our horrible play directly coincided with the absence of Josh Smith, on both ends of the floor. I pointed out right after Christmas, that the Hawks hadn't even broke the 82 point barrier in the 4 games that Smith had missed. And that was mainly due to the fact that he's one of the main ballhandlers in the high post offense that Woody runs in the half court set. Most of Josh's assists go directly to shooters who are wide open. Most of the time, it's JJ. Other times, it's a guy like Salim or Childress. And the one thing I always criticized Josh for ( grabbing a rebound and immeadiately pushing the ball to the frontcourt, which sometimes leads to dumb turnovers ), was actually the type of thing that this offense was missing. That little thing he was doing, was getting us set up in the halfcourt offense much faster, than what we've seen in the past 2 weeks. And it helped to get us in a rhythm. But people on this board are so convinced that our problems start with . . . 1. coaching 2. management 3. players not caring or giving up . . . that they completely overlook the obvious causes of inconsistent play in any sport . . 1. youth, 2. inexperience, and 3. INJURIES So Lascar, let them believe what they want to believe. For the FIRST TIME THIS SEASON, Williams, Childress, and Smith were able to contribute to the Hawks in the same game, and even be out on the floor at the same time. And for the first time, Shelden was able to go up against then 2nd wave of PFs on another team, instead of a starting PF. Combined, those 4 guys had this stat line: 47 points 30 rebounds 14 assists 5 steals 5 blocks Most importantly, look at the lineup that was on the floor in the 4th quarter. G - JJ G - Chill F - Marvin F - Smoove F - Shelden ( until he fouled out with a mintue to go ) That's BK's dream lineup right there. By the way, Marvin, as Ice Cube would say, "damn near got a triple-double". I'd still like for Marvin to come off the bench, especially seeing the success that Shelden had against non-starters. But I'll give him props for bringing his A-game last night, and raising his overall season average to a C-.

lol you might want to look at our next 15 games or so. if this team plays 500 ball, they're back in the playoff hunt.