TheNorthCydeRises

if you're the heat, hornets, bucks, nuggets, blazers, nets, and celtics, injuries are a legit excuse.. if you're the hawks, you can't use that excuse.. typical squawkers.

i don't know if you guys are either frustrated to the point of delusion, or you truly believe that this team really wants to lose. a team that has given up doesn't bring a player back a two weeks early. and of course, woody gets no credit for this win. typical for this board.

hawk, what is our record if everyone was somewhat healthy the entire season?

and some of you guys tried to act like the injuries weren't the major problem with this team'...... lol. that's why i refuse to be a follower of the masses mm this board. this is a 500 team when healthy.

this board is just in shock over that hornet loss. i am too. so this swing in opinion is somewhat expected. don't be shocked if we win tonight. a team can sometimes rally the troops and play inspired basketball the next game. pro sports is funny like that.

well you won't see me switch and jump on the tank bandwagon. tanking destroys confidence, not make our situation better.

Quote: Hornets are not more banged up than the Hawks. JJ is hurt. That trumps any injury the Hornets have. Josh Smith is greater than any injury to that team as well. Josh SMith was the most underrated player on this team and now it's showing.

Quote: Just be honest. How old are you? Woody is not a bad coach? I would not have respected myself if I had read any further. What world do you live in? There is no excuse for anyone who thinks Woody is a good coach. There is no evidence to back it up. None. So stop lying to yourself and the rest of us. Troy, just because I said that he wasn't a bad coach, doesn't mean that he's a good coach. I'll never say that Woody is a good coach. Coaching wise, I'll give Woody a C to C-. I've seen far worst coaches than Woody in my lifetime.

Walter, I posted the thread Tuesday, because you guys were overreacting about a road game in which JJ was sick. The Pacers were heavy favorites over us, and we still had people out. The Indy game was a game we probably don't win anyway. But we at least gave a good effort for about 30 minutes in that game. But we couldn't make shots, and then the defense completely failed us from the mid-3rd quarter on. A loss like that doesn't concern me, against a team over .500 I've never been "pro-Woody". I just didn't think he was the main reason for the demise of the Hawks, like most of you think he is. And Woody isn't a horrible coach. If he were a bad coach, we wouldn't have started the season 4 - 1 . . had a good shot to be 6 - 1 . . and were right around .500 at the end of November. Bad coaches don't have teams playing that well at the start of seasons. While you, and others still complained about the team, I didn't see you, or anybody else, talking about "tanking the season" back on December 6th, when we pulled out the miracle win @ Denver, and we were an 8 - 9 ballclub. Even with Woody's "shortcomings", this team was competitive on a nightly basis, had the 8th seed in the East, and had everybody believing that we might have a shot at this after all. So, in essence, we were OK. I refuse to be the hypocrite on this site, and act like the injuries didn't have a HUGE effect to how this season has turned out. I've always given Woody the benefit of the doubt, even if the rest of you had always given up on him. But he, and the team, were obviously doing something right at the beginning of the year. A healthy Hawks team wouldn't be 10 - 23 right now. You know it and I know it, and the rest of the people on this site know it. We would realistically be around a .500 ballclub ( 15 - 18 . . 16 - 17 ). My opinion has changed about Woody, because I see now that he coaches one way, and hasn't effectively adjusted how he coaches this team, to compensate for the injuries. I don't like how he's handling Marvin. I don't like how he's not adjusted the offense, to better suit JJ and get him better looks. Smoove was a big part of the halfcourt offense, because he would handle the ball in the high post. Without Smoove, this offense has been totally stagnant. He could've easily inserted Chill in the starting lineup, and probably kept this ship somewhat afloat. But he kept Marvin in the starting lineup, and it's hurt the team. I put that all on Woody . . unless he's being told by management to start Marvin, no matter what. Outside of the injuries, this team would've been OK, even with Woody at coach. He had a system that fit the skills of the players he was giving heavy minutes to in the beginning of the season. But when injuries hit, you have to be able to adjust. And he hasn't. Woody is a victim of circumstance, in regards to the injuries. But he hasn't tried to switch things up to compensate for them. And frankly, if he can't put Marvin in the right situations to maximize his ability, the he's not the right guy for Marvin, which makes him the wrong guy for the Hawks in general. You complain about the talent, the coach, the GM, and everybody else. Fact is, everybody isn't at fault here. This team is young, and now we're hurting bad. And just like the Hornets, we would've been OK, if everybody was healthy. Woody probably isn't going to be shown the door anytime soon, so I want to see him switch things up to spark this team. Not keep things the same. If he doesn't pull Marvin out of that starting lineup, that'll tell me a lot about Woody and his stubborness. Starting with the Clipper game, 3 - 3 over the next 6 games is what I said the Hawks need to be, to stabilize this team somewhat, until Smoove possibly gets back next week. We're 1 - 2 right now, with games vs Detroit, vs Boston, and @ Minnesota coming up. After suffering the worst loss of the season, we're truly going to see what kind of heart and effort this team has. We'll probably lose against the Pistons ( but give a better effort ). Boston and Minnesota are winnable games, if the Hawks play their best. We'll see how everything turns out.

Quote: Your ZaZa deal is hilarious. So, you don't think we could get Marcus Williams for Pachulia? Rod Thorn would send a Falcon Jet to Atlanta right now if we offered that deal. First, bigs like Z are a hot commodity in the league, the reason why most people didn't like the Ford for Charlie V. deal. When you get a big that can score and rebounds OK, and is 22, you keep him. Second, Marcus Williams isn't proving to be that good. He averages 6.7 points per game, a lousy 2.9 assists, and has almost as many turnovers per game as assists (1.67). Plus, Marcus is one of the worst defenders on the planet. This dude can't stop anybody off the dribble and has no desire to improve his defense. Z is ONE year older than Marcus and light years ahead in development. Oh, and Marcus shoots 39% from the field. You act like Z is some stiff amd Williams some great PG. That isn't the case. Rod Thron would pull the trigger on that deal all day, every day. Even BK isn't that stupid. And saying a Josh Boone MIGHT be a fit for Z???? Lunacy. Yeah, lets take an unproven rookie coming off surgery for our guy is 22 and averages 12/8. Josh Boone will NEVER average 12/8. Come on man, you can do better than this stuff. Marcus Williams is a Hawk if Z is offered for him. After Thorn gets done laughing, that deal happens. LOL @ pete . . I never said that at all. But I think you overvalue ZaZa. He's played pretty good this year for us. But like the rest of the people on here, he shouldn't be a starting center. To me, he's a lot like Ty Lue. A good, one-dimensional player to bring off the bench. But when he starts, you may get some good, but you'll probably get some bad too. I only brought up names like Boone and Adams, for the sole fact that they could be brought in to be role players for this team. Much like those Haywood and Hayes rumors floating around the other day. We fans value our talent, more than the rest of the league does. If ZaZa was seen as a good player in this league, I'm sure the Hawks would get some interesting offers for him, especially from borderline playoff or championship contender type teams. As yourself this Pete. What team could ZaZa legitimately start on, either at center or power forward? And which one of those teams would could make a legit deal for him? Don't be surprised if you can't find too many.

LOL @ Mule. I agree with your sarcasm. If that is what they're doing, I'm not happy at all. Why even watch the rest of the season, if people feel that the Hawks have "given up" already? I don't think that for one minute. But they have definitely lost their way and their confidence. Woody has to change things up, or it's time to move him also. I have faith in God, and I truly believe that there is a reason for all of this . . ( and not to bring Oden to the Hawks ). Everytime I watch the Hawks, the T.I. song "Motivation" goes through my head.

And let me make this clear. All of you who are suggesting that we move certain players, may be doing this team more harm than good. These are still young players that need time to develop their NBA games. Trading away the young talent, for againg veterans who may or may not improve us, isn't the way to go. The Chicago Bulls made this mistake, when they essentially let Elton Brand, Brad Miller, and Ron Artest go way too soon. They traded all of those guys for draft picks or to get who they thought would be an impact player, in Jalen Rose. You can even add my boy Trenton Hassell to that mix, seeing that he's turned into one of the leagues top 10 defensive guards. Those moves essentially stunted the Bulls growth for a total of 6 years, before their new talent was able to develop. Marvin is signed through 2010. It is in our best interest to keep him around, even if he doesn't turn out to be anything special. He'll, at the worst, be a decent player in a few years, much like Al Harrington was during his stay at Indiana. The last thing we want to do, is trade him away, and end up talking about him being a star in some other system, like some of you talk about Diaw now. Marvin is in his 2nd year. A decision about moving him shouldn't be made until the trade deadline in year 4. Smoove, right now, is untouchable. In fact, if he comes back and plays well the rest of the season, the Hawks should seriously think about locking this guy up in the offseason with a big contract ( 5 years - 55 million ). Make sure he's a Hawk for the next 6 years at least. To me, Childress is also untouchable right now. He's a guy that this team needs. He's our version of Andres Nocioni right now. Our young Tayshawn Prince. The people who think teams are going to trade a good PG or a good center for either Marvin or Chill, are fooling themselves. A guy like Jamal Magloire is NOT good. If he was, he'd be the undisputed starting center in Portland, and logging major minutes. We can keep these 3 together, and still acquire the pieces we need in the future, without breaking up this core and completely starting over. ZaZa is expendible. A team needing a decent scoring center ( New Jersey ) might consider dealing with us. LOL . . no, we're not going to somehow get Marcus Williams out of that deal, but we may could get a Josh Boone or a Hassan Adams, guys who could help us defensively. Salim is expendible, no doubt on this. But talk about moving Smoove, Marvin or Chill, should be null and void right now. But moving the coach . . that's a different story.

LOL . . but this time, it's justified. The loss at Indiana with a sick JJ didn't bother me much, because I saw the team put forth some effort in the 1st half. The offensive rebounds the Pacers got all game, killed them. Stuff like that can be fixed. Teams lose bad road games like that all the time ( see the Lakers last night, with Kobe going to the locker room well before the game was over ) But like the rest of you, last night was UNACCEPTABLE, no matter who was out for us. People usually lose their jobs afer a loss like that. That was essentially the Hornets 2nd unit that ran us off the floor last night. And we couldn't do anything about that. That's also a team that has lost more than we have in the past 20 games, and we made them look like the Pistons. On the road is one thing. But you can't play like that in front of your home fans, even if it were only 10,000 there ( probably less in actual attendance ). It is a shame that all of these injuries have derailed this team like a bomb on a railroad track. That is still the main reason why we're in this situation. But a loss like the one we had last night has to have some reprocussions to it. Either you fire the coach, or the coach has to completely shake up this lineup to put some people on notice. But most important, I think the coach needs to seriously rethink what he's telling this team to do on offense. We have so many people out, that it may be best to do what Diesel has been suggesting, and just let these guys run. Forget the set offense in which we wait 17 - 20 seconds to shoot the ball. Just let them run, and the first person who has a good look at the basket, take it. That's what Memphis has done, since they fired Fratello. And it's made them a much better basketball team, and a more entertaining team to watch. When I look at this team now, the people who have earned the right to be in the starting lineup, are JJ, Shelden, Speedy and Childress. It's time to sit Marvin and bring him off the bench. If Woody is still the coach, and this isn't done Friday, I just wonder where Woody's head is at. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over, and expecting a different result. If Marvin can't get it going, you can't keep putting him in that starting lineup. Even if Dijon takes some of his playing time, then so be it. Maybe that will light a fire under young Marvin. Woody is not a bad coach . . . he's just a stubborn one. That's the conclusion I came to last night. I still don't have a problem with his substitutions. I don't have a problem with his defensive gameplans. But he's set in his ways, especially when it comes to offensive philosophy, much like Larry Brown was with the Knicks last year. And if your way doesn't maximize the talents of your players, then they might not be the problem. Maybe Marvin will blossom under some other coach. But Woody has to put him in positions to be successful. And right now, he's just not doing that for Marvin. Instead of adjusting his coaching philosophy to fit the talents of his players, he wants them to adjust to him, and play the way he wants them to play. You know . . . "play the right way" Rick Majerus called Marvin "James Worthy with a jumpshot". Well, those of us who are old enough to remember how Worthy played, know that Worthy was a tremendous open court player, who later turned into a pretty good 15 feet and in player. Maybe Marvin is an open court player that needs to be in a running system, in order for his talents to be maximized. LOL . . but if we don't run, even after made baskets, Marvin won't be James Worthy with a jumpshot. He'll be James Posey with an inconsistent jumpshot. How does Michael Jackson say it . . . "I'm looking at the Man in the Mirror." I think it's time for a few Hawks, and the coach, to do just that.

coach, i think marvin is feeling the pressure to live up to his 2nd pick status. it may be a mistake by not only the fans, but also by the organization, to expect him to be a key offensive guy right now. he needs time, maybe even a full year, to develop his off. game. they sat smoove and chill down at different points last year. they might have to do the same with marvin.

fan base has no choice but to stay patient with the kids. no team is going to trade erm any of these kids except smoove. these is no magic bullet to this.

start childress. marvin is having problems just staying on the floor because he's pressing too hard. start childress and let marvin work against the 2nd team.

facts from last night's game: 1) jj was sick, and he played like it. when your star player takes only 8 shots, you're gonna lose bad on most nights. 2) this team played great defense last night, but they could'nt secure def. rebs. that has been a huge problem since smoove has been out. 3) this team is trying hard to take the ball to the basket, but they can't finish. as much as all of us want this team to take the ball to the hole, they just aren't good at it.

we'll have 20 wins by the all-star break.

my bad pete. i apologize. lol, i'm not part of the woody fan club. i just get tired of people who have no idea how to manage a b-ball game, calling woody an idiot. youth and inexperience in these new roles for the players, have 30% to do with our problems. injuries - 45%........ coaching - 25%. this team hasn't even had a chance to fully play with each other yet. no. of games our projected starters have played with each other: zero '..... and that even includes the preseason.

Quote: Your right on with a lot of your comments...except: ZaZa isn't that bad. He is 22 so he is learning on the job like a few others. There have been nights (Clipper game) when we don't win without his play. Period. Woody stuff is right on. The only folks backing Woody are the Spirit. BK...you cut him way too much slack. We are still at the bottom of the league 4 years after he took the job. Sound like progress? Nope. He built this from scratch and we are still in the sewer. Why is Woody accountable but not Billy? Good post though. Wow . . I didn't know Woody has been the coach of the Hawks going on 4 years now? I guess that's why people hate Woody so much. The losing have made it seem like he's been here longer than what he truly has.

Good post JJ. Welcome to the board. A lot of people feel that your best player should also be the leader of the team. But in a lot of cases, that isn't the case. As much as we all love Dominique Wilkins, Nique was never the leader of the Hawks. It was either Doc Rivers or a guy like Craig Ehlo for a year or so, or a Mookie Blaylock that was the leader of this team, during all of the "winning" years of the Hawks. So I'm not expecting JJ to be anything that he isn't. Just keep being JJ, and that's fine with me. Point guards are usually the "born leaders" in basketball. Those are the guys that I expect to lead your team emotionally and in organization out on the floor.. They're supposed to be the "cerebral" guys . . that extra "coach out on the floor". Sure, any player can assume that role, but for the most part, it is assumed by the PG. Lue is the leader of the Hawks right now, whether Hawk fans like it our not. And it's not a coincidence that we've lost 8 out of 9 when he hasn't played.

Quote: offseason moves: 1. Suns sign Banks 2. Knicks waive Ime Udoka, sign Jared Jeffries 3. Hornets sign Peja Stojakovic 4. Sixers re-sign Willie Green 5. Nuggets re-sign Nene 6. Hawks sign Speedy Claxton "Those of you who read my recent piece on Steve Nash know that the type of point guard most likely to age well is the one who shoots well, passes well and is tall for the position. Which brings up another question: What type of point guard tends to age particularly poorly? Logically, the ones at the other end of the spectrum. So if you're a 5-foot-11, shoot-first guard with a shaky outside shot, the odds probably aren't in your favor. The beginning of Claxton's season illustrates why: He tried to play through knee problems, but with his quickness compromised and no jumper to fall back on, he was essentially showing up for battle unarmed. As a result, he's shooting a ghastly 32.3 percent and setting a career high for turnovers. Claxton's four-year, $25 million deal, which pays him until he's nearly 32, would rank higher but for one factor: redeemability. He's played well of late now that his knees are back in working order, and will probably produce for as long as they stay that way. So the Hawks are likely to get a better return than they've seen so far, and might be able to trade their way out of it during one of his healthy stretches." 7. Magic extend Tony Battie 8. Clippers sign Tim Thomas 9. Clippers extend Chris Kaman 10. Pacers trade Austin Croshere for Marquis Daniels I can't argue against that RIGHT NOW, when you look at the entire season, that the Speedy deal would be in the top 10 worst. But in the past few weeks, we're starting to really see what Speedy brings to the table as a defensive PG and as a guard that understands how to set up people. In the first 20 or so games of the season, the kid didn't have one single game in which he had over 5 assists. But since the Memphis game, in which he had a season high 19 points and 11 assists, he hasn't had a game in which he's had less than 5 assists. From the Memphis game till now, Speedy is averaging: 11.5 ppg 8.8 assists 3.5 stls while shooting a little over 42% FG THAT is the Speedy Claxton I expected to run the team at the beginning of the season. And that's why he got the contract that he did. I know a lot of you guys are already into the "doom and gloom" . . / . . "oh woe is me as a Hawks fan" mode, but I see some good things potentially coming out of all of this adversity. - JJ learning how to play while being doubled and triple-teamed. - Shelden getting a lot more PT, than he probably should've gotten this year, which will help his development as an NBA player. - Marvin getting a chance to find his niche as a player ( which I don't think he's done yet ) - The team having time to evaulate the worth of guys like Ivey, Salim, Lo, and even Solomon to the team. Some of their stock has dropped, while others have risen. It has and probably will continue to lead to the tweaking of the bench in the coming weeks and months. And definitely during the offseason. - The owners being able to evaulate the mental toughness of Mike Woodson. Although we're not winning, the coach hasn't lost his resolve or given up on the team ( like some of the fans have ). Woody's not "going through the motions" yet. He's still coaching these guys up, even of the vast majority of you despise him as a coach. It still may not be enough to save his job, especially if the Hawks see a guy who could possibly help this team mature at a faster rate. Too bad Hubie Brown doesn't want to coach anymore. It's the type of adversity that can either kill you as a team, or make you stronger once everyone comes back. I see this happen in sports all the time. That's why I want to see this team at FULL STRENGTH, before making any drastic evaulation on what direction we're headed in. I saw a team that wasn't close to being full strength and healthy at the beginning of the year, get off to a great start. So it'll be interesting to watch this team come early February.

The only reason you do a deal like this, is to add another big to the mix in Haywood and have the luxury to bring a bigger guard/forward off the bench in Hayes. But make no mistake, our season isn't hinging on whether Haywood and Hayes ( the 8th and 9th men on this team, when Lue and Smoove come back ), are in the lineup. This team is more than capable of surviving with Salim and Lo on the team, if we also get back Smoove and Lue. Even if we acquire them, Haywood shouldn't play more than 20 minutes a game, while Hayes shouldn't see 10 - 12 minutes of PT, if everyone is healthy. Hayes is a decent replacement for Salim, not because of offense ( because Salim is a better offensive player ), but because he's a tall guard who can play a little defense. That would be his role here. Haywood is better than Lo Wright, but only slightly. He's a better shot blocker than Wright, but Hay Hay Hay-Wood is soft . . EXTRA SOFT. Charmin type soft. That's why the Wiz would want to get rid of him. If Salim, Batman, and Lo Wright combined would be given a 3.5 rating out of 10 . . . then Haywood and Hayes would be given a 4.25 rating out of 10. Bottom line. Not significant enough to lose sleep over if we make the deal or not.

Possible Smoove return is Jan 17th . . according to Josh himself. Games before that possible return date: @ Indy ( tonight ) vs NO/OKC ( tomorrow ) vs Detroit ( friday ) vs Boston ( MLK day - 15th ) Go 2 - 2 during this stretch, and split with Minny and Charlotte later that week, and the Hawks will be officially "stabilized". Then we'll see what we can do once we are at full strength. The record then will be 13 - 24, still in striking distance. But anything less than a .500 mark for the next 6 games, may spell trouble for this team. Personally, if Smoove is feeling well enough to play by the 17th ( @ Minnesota ), I'd probably keep him out until the 20th ( @ Charlotte ). If he comes back on the 17th, he'll have to play 3 games in 4 nights, a tough stretch for a healthy player. But when you look at the schedule in the next 3 weeks, the time is NOW to get the season back on track.

Correct me if I'm wrong Ex, but that's still a Denver team without both Melo and JR Smith, right? The whole purpose of the AI trade, was for Denver to make a run when he and Melo can both play together. The fact that Earl Boykins has to score over 20 ppg just for the Nuggets to stay somewhat competitive, tells you all you need to know about the state of that team right now. LOL . . a 5 foot 5 inch shooting guard is the 2nd best player on the team now. When they get Melo and JR back, we'll probably see an more efficient AI, and a much better Denver team. LOL . . it's almost like the same situation that Joe Johnson is in with the Hawks, when he lost Lue and Smoove. There's only so much that one man can do. The NBA proves time and time again, that no one man, no matter how great of a player he is, can win with a scrub team. At the very least, he has to have 4 - 6 decent players around him who aren't complete scrubs.