TheNorthCydeRises

Good post JJ. Welcome to the board. A lot of people feel that your best player should also be the leader of the team. But in a lot of cases, that isn't the case. As much as we all love Dominique Wilkins, Nique was never the leader of the Hawks. It was either Doc Rivers or a guy like Craig Ehlo for a year or so, or a Mookie Blaylock that was the leader of this team, during all of the "winning" years of the Hawks. So I'm not expecting JJ to be anything that he isn't. Just keep being JJ, and that's fine with me. Point guards are usually the "born leaders" in basketball. Those are the guys that I expect to lead your team emotionally and in organization out on the floor.. They're supposed to be the "cerebral" guys . . that extra "coach out on the floor". Sure, any player can assume that role, but for the most part, it is assumed by the PG. Lue is the leader of the Hawks right now, whether Hawk fans like it our not. And it's not a coincidence that we've lost 8 out of 9 when he hasn't played.

Quote: offseason moves: 1. Suns sign Banks 2. Knicks waive Ime Udoka, sign Jared Jeffries 3. Hornets sign Peja Stojakovic 4. Sixers re-sign Willie Green 5. Nuggets re-sign Nene 6. Hawks sign Speedy Claxton "Those of you who read my recent piece on Steve Nash know that the type of point guard most likely to age well is the one who shoots well, passes well and is tall for the position. Which brings up another question: What type of point guard tends to age particularly poorly? Logically, the ones at the other end of the spectrum. So if you're a 5-foot-11, shoot-first guard with a shaky outside shot, the odds probably aren't in your favor. The beginning of Claxton's season illustrates why: He tried to play through knee problems, but with his quickness compromised and no jumper to fall back on, he was essentially showing up for battle unarmed. As a result, he's shooting a ghastly 32.3 percent and setting a career high for turnovers. Claxton's four-year, $25 million deal, which pays him until he's nearly 32, would rank higher but for one factor: redeemability. He's played well of late now that his knees are back in working order, and will probably produce for as long as they stay that way. So the Hawks are likely to get a better return than they've seen so far, and might be able to trade their way out of it during one of his healthy stretches." 7. Magic extend Tony Battie 8. Clippers sign Tim Thomas 9. Clippers extend Chris Kaman 10. Pacers trade Austin Croshere for Marquis Daniels I can't argue against that RIGHT NOW, when you look at the entire season, that the Speedy deal would be in the top 10 worst. But in the past few weeks, we're starting to really see what Speedy brings to the table as a defensive PG and as a guard that understands how to set up people. In the first 20 or so games of the season, the kid didn't have one single game in which he had over 5 assists. But since the Memphis game, in which he had a season high 19 points and 11 assists, he hasn't had a game in which he's had less than 5 assists. From the Memphis game till now, Speedy is averaging: 11.5 ppg 8.8 assists 3.5 stls while shooting a little over 42% FG THAT is the Speedy Claxton I expected to run the team at the beginning of the season. And that's why he got the contract that he did. I know a lot of you guys are already into the "doom and gloom" . . / . . "oh woe is me as a Hawks fan" mode, but I see some good things potentially coming out of all of this adversity. - JJ learning how to play while being doubled and triple-teamed. - Shelden getting a lot more PT, than he probably should've gotten this year, which will help his development as an NBA player. - Marvin getting a chance to find his niche as a player ( which I don't think he's done yet ) - The team having time to evaulate the worth of guys like Ivey, Salim, Lo, and even Solomon to the team. Some of their stock has dropped, while others have risen. It has and probably will continue to lead to the tweaking of the bench in the coming weeks and months. And definitely during the offseason. - The owners being able to evaulate the mental toughness of Mike Woodson. Although we're not winning, the coach hasn't lost his resolve or given up on the team ( like some of the fans have ). Woody's not "going through the motions" yet. He's still coaching these guys up, even of the vast majority of you despise him as a coach. It still may not be enough to save his job, especially if the Hawks see a guy who could possibly help this team mature at a faster rate. Too bad Hubie Brown doesn't want to coach anymore. It's the type of adversity that can either kill you as a team, or make you stronger once everyone comes back. I see this happen in sports all the time. That's why I want to see this team at FULL STRENGTH, before making any drastic evaulation on what direction we're headed in. I saw a team that wasn't close to being full strength and healthy at the beginning of the year, get off to a great start. So it'll be interesting to watch this team come early February.

The only reason you do a deal like this, is to add another big to the mix in Haywood and have the luxury to bring a bigger guard/forward off the bench in Hayes. But make no mistake, our season isn't hinging on whether Haywood and Hayes ( the 8th and 9th men on this team, when Lue and Smoove come back ), are in the lineup. This team is more than capable of surviving with Salim and Lo on the team, if we also get back Smoove and Lue. Even if we acquire them, Haywood shouldn't play more than 20 minutes a game, while Hayes shouldn't see 10 - 12 minutes of PT, if everyone is healthy. Hayes is a decent replacement for Salim, not because of offense ( because Salim is a better offensive player ), but because he's a tall guard who can play a little defense. That would be his role here. Haywood is better than Lo Wright, but only slightly. He's a better shot blocker than Wright, but Hay Hay Hay-Wood is soft . . EXTRA SOFT. Charmin type soft. That's why the Wiz would want to get rid of him. If Salim, Batman, and Lo Wright combined would be given a 3.5 rating out of 10 . . . then Haywood and Hayes would be given a 4.25 rating out of 10. Bottom line. Not significant enough to lose sleep over if we make the deal or not.

Possible Smoove return is Jan 17th . . according to Josh himself. Games before that possible return date: @ Indy ( tonight ) vs NO/OKC ( tomorrow ) vs Detroit ( friday ) vs Boston ( MLK day - 15th ) Go 2 - 2 during this stretch, and split with Minny and Charlotte later that week, and the Hawks will be officially "stabilized". Then we'll see what we can do once we are at full strength. The record then will be 13 - 24, still in striking distance. But anything less than a .500 mark for the next 6 games, may spell trouble for this team. Personally, if Smoove is feeling well enough to play by the 17th ( @ Minnesota ), I'd probably keep him out until the 20th ( @ Charlotte ). If he comes back on the 17th, he'll have to play 3 games in 4 nights, a tough stretch for a healthy player. But when you look at the schedule in the next 3 weeks, the time is NOW to get the season back on track.

Correct me if I'm wrong Ex, but that's still a Denver team without both Melo and JR Smith, right? The whole purpose of the AI trade, was for Denver to make a run when he and Melo can both play together. The fact that Earl Boykins has to score over 20 ppg just for the Nuggets to stay somewhat competitive, tells you all you need to know about the state of that team right now. LOL . . a 5 foot 5 inch shooting guard is the 2nd best player on the team now. When they get Melo and JR back, we'll probably see an more efficient AI, and a much better Denver team. LOL . . it's almost like the same situation that Joe Johnson is in with the Hawks, when he lost Lue and Smoove. There's only so much that one man can do. The NBA proves time and time again, that no one man, no matter how great of a player he is, can win with a scrub team. At the very least, he has to have 4 - 6 decent players around him who aren't complete scrubs.

I only partially agree with this. Solomon is a very active player, but he gets totally lost on his defensive rotations at times and will commit fouls because of that. LOL . . Lo does this too, but Lo is the veteran and will get the benefit of the doubt in that area. It's hard to give a guy minutes, when he fouls on the average every 2 or 3 minutes. Solomon's stat line last night: 7 minutes 6 points 3 - 3 FG 2 offensive rebounds 1 turnover 3 fouls That's why the kid can't see a lot of PT. He can't stay on the floor. And when you foul, you give the opponent an opportunity to score from the FT line. But once again, Woody is the idiot . . lol. Pay attention Hawk fans. Just don't be blinded by your hatred toward the coach, organization, or a particular player that you don't like.

Quote: The ball rarely came Marvins way and numb-nut Woody kept jerking him out of the game. He came out early in the fitsy quarter and he could never get a rythym until the 4th when Woody finally kept him in. He sat more minutes in the first 3 quarters than he played...why? Because Woody is a fool. His sub patterns from one game to the next are out of his left butt cheek. There is no rhyme or reason for how this man subs and it gets players out of rhythm. - Chill always subs in for Marvin midway through the 1st quarter. There's really no dropoff when Chill comes in the game. - Marvin came right back in at the end of the 1st quarter - He only got jerked in and out of the game in the 2nd quarter. And that was strictly because of the personnel that the Clips had in the game at the time. And also because of TT's 3 pointer. I thnk that kind of ticked Woody off for a minute. But he got Marvin right back in the game. In all, Marvin played 32 minutes, and the vast majority of the 4th quarter. He preserved him enough to make sure that he could be in the game at the end. But Woody is the idiot? LOL. It's like Diesel said. This is not NBA Live, where you can play 5 guys all game if you wanted to. Players get tired or have mental lapses. At those times, it is up to the coach to either give him a breather, or talk to him about his mental lapse. And once again Woody kept his rotation pretty tight. He's able to do this now, with Chill being back. Why? Because he's able to play the 2 and the 3, and even bring the ball up at times as a Point Forward. And it's so nice to see Speedy healthy enough to play 35 minutes + a game. While he didn't shoot particularly well, he had a great all-around game. The true idiots are those of you who understand nothing about how to manage a basketball game.

LOL @ that. Complete fantasyland. The only 2 things that would be remotely possible to do, would be to sign Adleman and possibly sign Randolph Morris. But I think I know where you're going with this. Sounds like some of the proposals put on this board by a certain "squawker". LOL . . genius move by putting Isaiah's name in the GM spot. It kind of shows how ridiculous 4 of those 6 things are, and how feesible they really are.

LOL . . Diesel has a way of really driving a point home. I'll even add another team to that mix . . . Denver, back in 2003. They traded away high salary players who had value, for expiring contracts of players who were flat out bums. It was a 2 year process to dump salary and obtain expiring contracts, then put themselves in position to remake the team. High salary guys like Nick Van Exel, Raef LaFrentz, and Antonio McDyess were either all dealt or not resigned in the 2001 - 2002 season. And their leading scorer in the 2002 - 2003 season, Juwan Howard, was also not resigned. That put them in position to get the high draft pick and also totally remake the team. Sound familiar? In 2004, they obtained the #2 spot, in which they chose Carmelo. They also obtained Andre Miller, Earl Boykins, and Voshon Lenard in free agency that year, completely remaking their backcourt. In fact, if you look at the top players left from that 2003 year, the only players that remained in 2004, were Nene, Marcus Camby ( who was hurt most of 2003 ), and Rodney White. Ironically, these were decent frontcourt players who now had decent backcourt players to work with. So when Denver made their quantum leap from 17 in 2003 to 43 wins in 2004, they pretty much gutted the team and brought in totally new talent. In all, 8 new faces were on the roster. The idea of "tanking", then keeping the exact same team that "tanked" the next year, is at the very least . . . foolish. Their confidence would be completely destroyed if that was the philosophy. What the Hawks need to do now, is stabilize this season by winning close to 50% of their next 15 or so games. Then, near or after the All-Star break, this team will have to go on some 5 - 7 game win streak, if they want to be a playoff contender. But this season is far from over. The players can still salvage this season with 32 - 35 wins, and even a possible outside playoff shot.

Bigs will struggle to stay out of foul trouble, guarding Brand and Kaman. Hopefully, this team will play well enough offensively to stay in the game. Look for another 20 point + game from Marvin. We need to win a home game, especially one like this, so I'll be an optimist. Hawks 98 . . Clippers 94.

The next level . . . Pacers are currently 17 - 16 . . but safe in the top 8. I guess that means that O'Neal is gone then.

Quote: ...about Marvin being a terrible player with a bad attitude, I guess I shouldn't be surprised that I only found 1 positive post about his play last night. He was the most assertive and vocal Hawk, and he had a pretty solid game. He had an excellent offensive game, and an average to above average defensive game. Everyone's been asking for him to step up, make a difference, try hard. Well he did last night, and only one poster has a comment? Typical. The reason why they don't do it, is because they don't want to be wrong about a player that they don't like. It's almost like they'd rather see the guy fail and the Hawks win, than to see the guy that they hate be a reason for the Hawks winning. You saw it with Smoove before he went down. Now everybody realizes just how important he is to the chemistry of this team. You saw it with Speedy at the beginning of the year, when he obviously wasn't anywhere near 90%. But now, he's playing decent basketball and isn't a complete liability. You definitely saw it with Shelden. A lot of posters were absolutely convinced that he'd be a bust, even before he played a regular season game. And you see it with Salim all the time. When he's struggling, he shouldn't play much. But when he's on, he's definitely an asset to this team. Yet, people don't like him even when he's on. It's one thing to criticize players. But you also have to give them props when they play well. If they don't, then you know their true agenda when it concerns a particular player.

LOL @ the posts on this board. I saw a Hawks team that moved the ball about as well as they have the entire year. They didn't go into that high post offense that slows everything down and tries to get the ball to Joe. They actually moved the ball around last night. And once more, guys didn't hesitate to take open shots. Marvin played with extreme confidence. Shelden looked very good. And while Joe was hobbled a little, he didn't try to force it and played a decent game as well. About the only guy who couldn't get it going last night, was Chill. We lost last night because we couldn't get to loose balls on the defensive end, which gave the Raptors too many 2nd and 3rd chance opportunities. Offensively, we were playing pretty well. The Hawks were shooting over 50% for most of that game. But the Raptors were over 60% for most of the game, and we couldn't overcome that. And I'm surprised that no one has commented on the fact that Woody shortened his rotation last night. ( couldn't complain about the substitutions pattern last night . . lol ) If he could've, he would've only played 7 guys last night. And that's exactly what I was trying to illustrate in some of my posts last week. If Smoove and Lue were back, guys like Ivey, Salim, and maybe even Lorenzen would hardly ever see the court. We'd have a solid 8 man rotation here that could play decent defense and be solid on offense. Then the fringe guys could play spot minutes just to spell people. It was disappointing to see Toronto get to every loose ball and have free run when in the paint. But I liked what I saw last night from this team offensively.

Quote: Would you guys trade Speedy Claxton for Nate Robinson? No . . but I would trade Salim for Nate in a heartbeat. We we just unlucky a few years back in the draft. Almost every draft board had Nate going somewhere in the top 10 picks in the 2nd round. Most draft boards had teams taking a lot of international players. But that year, a lot of teams chose to go with college seniors and juniors in the first round. Almost Instead of having a player like Nate or even Julius Hodge, Francisco Garcia, or Luther Head, we had to settle for Salim because he was one of the last big time college players still left on the board. When you look at that draft in the 2nd round, only Monta Ellis is arguably a better player than Salim right now. And that's only because of the J-Rich injury and Nellie coming aboard. Maybe that's the type of team Salim needs to go to. But I would absolutely love to have Nate on this team. He plays hard. He plays with confidence. And he isn't scared of anybody. LOL @ one of you posters calling him a "thug", just because he got into that fight. Nate, like everyone else in MSG that night, got caught up in the heat of the moment. It isn't Nate's fault that he was pound-for-pound the strongest man on the court. Nate would be an excellent backup PG to bring off the bench to up tempo.

Quote: congratulations. you can now post from the bathroom in your favorite truck stop lol. once i start to post, i only have 4 or 5 minutes to type. and a 512 character limit. so i gotta keep it short

wow it worked. gotta love technology. if shelden can keep bosh off the boards and stay out of foul trouble, we have a shot. speedy also needs to contain ford.

i'm on my cellphone viewing this site. just seeing if this will post.

Diesel, you could be right. If we can get Lue back to playing like he was at the beginning of the season, we could survive January enough to stay at least 7 - 10 games under .500 A cold shooting Salim shouldn't play 20 minutes a game. But right now, he has to, because of our guard situation and our limited options on offense. With Lue back, he'll be back in the role that he should be. "Hired gun off the bench . . if he's hot". But this team desperately needs that #2 scorer right now. And if Lue can provide that for this team, we'll be OK in January. LOL . . as for 4 straight? I don't know about all of that. I'd be happy with 2 home wins vs the Clips and the Hornets. This team really needs to start taking care of business at home, just for the sake of the fans.

Just one question to the board: Right now, we're sitting at 9 - 20. What would the Hawks record be if no more than 1 out of our top 7 players were hurt? Our top 7 players, in no particular order, are: JJ Chill Speedy Lue Smoove Marvin ZaZa . . . with Shelden being the only guy outside of that group gathering 15 - 20 minutes a game. Salim and Lorenzen should be the other 2 guys complimenting the top 7. But they should never play more than 10 minutes a game, unless they're playing real well. Interesting facts here. Here is our record for each of our top 7 players, when he doesn't play: ZaZa ( 2 games ): 1 - 1 Marvin ( 17 games ): 8 - 9 Childress ( 19 games ): 5 - 14 Speedy ( 8 games ): 2 - 6 JJ ( 4 games ): 1 - 3 Lue ( 7 games ): 0 - 7 Smoove ( 4 games ): 0 - 4 Total games missed by at least one of the top 7 players: ( 61 games ) When you look at these numbers at first glance, two things should stand out. (1) When one of the Hawks guards are out, it's a loss more than 75% of the time. Why? Because we're forced to give guys like Ivey, Salim and Bozeman ( formerly ) extended minutes. Ivey is an offensive liability and Salim is a defensive liability, who may even be an offensive liability when he's not on. Boze could play decent defense at times, but he was horrible offensively. This team could fully function with Speedy, Lue, JJ, and at times, Childress playing the guard spots. But when one of those guys are out, it hurts the entire team. (2) The team at least survived without Marvin in the lineup. That's true. But that was in large part of JJ's ability to play the 3 at times. And he was only able to effectively play the 3, when Speedy and Lue was healthy, giving us a viable offensive threat at the 2 and the 3, with Speedy at the point. The interchangeable parts we have with our 6 - 7 to 6 - 9 guys, can enable us to survive with one of those guys out of the lineup. But not when we have more than one of those guys out, or playing hurt. With Marvin in the lineup, there wouldn't be a dramatic dropoff in talent when a guy like Chill or Smoove came out of the game. He's not as good as those guys yet, but the dropoff wouldn't be significant. Think of it like the Clippers subbing in Shawn Livingston for Sam Cassell. Sam is the better player, but subbing Shawn for him doesn't cripple your team, because he can do some things better than Sam. But when we were without Chill and Marvin, and Smoove and/or JJ needed rest or were in foul trouble, our options were very limited. We either had to play Salim extended minutes, or even put a stiff like Freije out on the floor. One more thing to note about this team. Even when the Hawks win, it has been a struggle most of the time. And we struggle to win, because we have been forced to play guys like Lorenzen, Ivey, and Salim way more than we should be playing them, when a guy is injured. Think of the Hawks as a very fragile ecosystem, that can be disrupted with one slight change. Complain about the coaching if you want. But fully understand that injuries to our key guys, is the #1 reason why we are where we are right now. Record with the top 7 fully healthy: somewhere between 15 - 14 . . and 13 - 16.

Quote: I would not say poor character traits but I think BK has selected guys that are not internally driven or intense in how they approach the game. While it is common to attack today's NBA player for having too much attitude, BK appears to be selecting guys without enought attitude. Salim doesn't have enough attitude? The problem with Salim, is that he may have too much attitude. He truly believes that he is a baller, a great baller. All the great ones have that attribute. He just doesn't have the skills to go along with that belief. Too bad Salim isn't a 1/2 step quicker and about 3 inches taller. We might have something great there, if we did.

LOL. T-Mac in his 2nd year in the league. 9.3 ppg 5.7 rebs 2.3 asst 44% FG His development in his 2nd year, was stunted by the injury he sustained, which kept him out for the first 3 months of the season. When he came back to the team, he slowly developed into what kind of player he would eventually become. But he was wildly inconsistent at times, but showed flashes of greatness at times. The difference between the Raptors back then, and the Hawks now, is that the Raptors felt no need to rush McGrady into stardom. They let him develop at his own pace. They felt no need to start him in his first 3 years in the league, but he was a major piece of the Raptor puzzle by Year 3. With the Hawks, they're trying to accelerate Marvin's growth at a rapid rate, instead of just letting him find his niche as a ballplayer on his own. Instead of bringing him off the bench and letting him get his 25 - 30 minutes from there, they're starting him to see if he can develop his game to be a valuable starter now, instead of next year or in 2008. Yes, T-Mac was picked 9th in the 1997 draft, but he's easily the 2nd best player in that draft, next to Tim Duncan, who went #1 overall. Bottom line. Hawks fans have NO CHOICE but to have patience with Marvin, while hoping that the coach do what is in the best interest of the team. Sending Marvin to the bench wouldn't be a demotion in my eyes, if he still played the same amount of minutes. Starting Childress right now may be overall what is better for the team. But to say that Marvin isn't that good, just isn't accurate. To me, he's on the same learning curve with T-Mac. We'll see if he can make that quantum leap in Year 3, like T-Mac did. He may even make it by the end of this season.

I heard the same thing on Cold Pizza this morning, referring to Riley being upset with his team. Riley and the Heat: 13 - 17 Woody and the Hawks: 9 - 20 One is a championship level coach. The other is the perceived Hawks anti-christ. Riley and Heat fans blame injuries and their vets not stepping up. Hawks fans blame the coach, but not injuries and the youth of the team. As Mr Spock would say . . . "Fascinating."

But we did run it pretty effectively in November. It isn't the most fluent thing to watch, but offense wasn't our problem in November. It was finishing off games and stopping people at the end of games. If you look back at those November games, we shot a good percentage in the vast majority of those games. One on one dribble penetration? With who? JJ tries to do it, but he immeadiately gets double and triple-teamed now. Speedy does it sometimes, but can't finish. Marvin does it, but either doesn't finish or draws an offensive foul. Shelden almost always draws an offensive foul when he does it. Salim 90% of the time relies on his jumper, and almost always passes when he enters the lane ( which ends up being a turnover ). Chill can do it pretty well, if matched up against an inferior defender. Now the post up game may have potential . . but it'll have to be with JJ and Childress. Right now, Smoove has no post up game whatsoever. He's trying to develop one, but JJ is easily our best post up player. But even he has to learn to go quickly, and not wait until the double team comes to him. I feel your frustration man. But you have to realize that there's not an easy fix to all of this. And when we have people out, it makes it that much worse.