TheNorthCydeRises

But we did run it pretty effectively in November. It isn't the most fluent thing to watch, but offense wasn't our problem in November. It was finishing off games and stopping people at the end of games. If you look back at those November games, we shot a good percentage in the vast majority of those games. One on one dribble penetration? With who? JJ tries to do it, but he immeadiately gets double and triple-teamed now. Speedy does it sometimes, but can't finish. Marvin does it, but either doesn't finish or draws an offensive foul. Shelden almost always draws an offensive foul when he does it. Salim 90% of the time relies on his jumper, and almost always passes when he enters the lane ( which ends up being a turnover ). Chill can do it pretty well, if matched up against an inferior defender. Now the post up game may have potential . . but it'll have to be with JJ and Childress. Right now, Smoove has no post up game whatsoever. He's trying to develop one, but JJ is easily our best post up player. But even he has to learn to go quickly, and not wait until the double team comes to him. I feel your frustration man. But you have to realize that there's not an easy fix to all of this. And when we have people out, it makes it that much worse.

One more Babcock nugget . . his draft picks 1990 Rumeal Robinson (10th pick) 1991 Stacey Augmon (9th pick) 1992 Adam Keefe (10th pick) 1993 Doug Edwards (15th pick) 1994 none 1995 Alan Henderson (16th pick) 1996 Priest Lauderdale (28th pick) 1997 Ed Gray (22nd pick) 1998 Roshwon McLeod (22nd pick) 1999 Jason Terry (10th pick) Cal Bowdler (17th pick) Dion Glover (20th pick) 2000 DerMarr Johnson (6th pick) 2001 none 2002 Dan Dickau (28th pick)

LOL . . this (( bleep )) had me thinking about Phoenix. Manning went to Phoenix. The Clips got the 1994 1st round draft pick that year. It was a late round pick that they used to choose Greg Minor, from Louisville. A decent college player, but turned out to be much of nothing in the pros. The best players remaining in that draft, if we'd kept our pick, turned out to be Charlie Ward and Howard Eisley. So at the worst, we traded Nique and Charlie Ward, who could've been a serviceable PG behind Mookie, for nothing.

LOL . . what a great thread. Hilarious even. My vote. BK, by a hair . . only because it's ovbious that we have talent on this team, and BK had to completely unravel the mess that Babock left us in. This team isn't digressing, it's improving. It may not be improving rapidly, but it is improving. As far as Babcock goes, keep in mind that he came to the Hawks right when we were still a formidible team in the East. It's not like Petey was responsible for trading for Nique back in '83, or drafting Doc or Willis. Those players, the foundation for those great mid to late-80s teams, were already in place by the time Babcock took control in '89. And for the most part, we were a VETERAN ballclub. As far as BK goes, he has completely rebuilt this team, and has put us in the position to at least be a competitive team in the East . . when healthy. His defining moment as a GM, may be to fire Woody, and bring in a good coach to maximize the total potential of this team. But right now, his defining moment is the acquisition of Joe Johnson . . with the non-acquisition of Chris Paul being a close 2nd. Contrary to popular belief, Woody and BK will not be fired together. Woody will go first, and BK will have at least another year or two after Woody is gone, to right the ship with a good coaching hire, or a good trade. They may be boys, but when it comes to business, they are NOT a package deal. The coach is almost always fired FIRST, before the GM is let go. Babcock's best move as GM wasn't any trade he made. It was the acquisition of Lenny Wilkens, which almost immeadiately transformed us from a mediocre team, to a damn good team. BK at least deseves a chance to see if Woody can turn this around this season . . or fire him at the end of the season and hire the type of "impact" coach that Babcock did. His worst move was easily the Dominique fiasco. If anything, you let Nique play out the rest of the season without a contract, and see if he could get it together enough in the playoffs, to make a major run at a title. Sothron says that Nique was "done" after he hurt his achilles. LOL . . someone has a bad memory then. If memory serves me correct, Nique won "Comeback Player of the Year" in 1993, after coming back from that injury. ( His injury occured in the 91 - 92 season by the way ). Nique struggled at times on that 93 - 94 squad, but he was still the leading scorer and the one guy that teams had to fear. The difference, is that he lost his explosiveness going to the hole and relied heavily on his jumper. But he was still the best "scorer" we had on that team. I know why Pete made the trade. But with the way the league was during that time, it was absolutely the wrong decision. Even if you lost Nique for nothing at the end of the year, his presence on that team gave us the best chance to win an NBA Title. In the playoffs, you need people who possess the ability to take over a game. Nique was the only player on that squad who could do that. When we traded Nique for Manning, you essentially gave up that threat, for an all-around player who was more of a team guy, than a superstar type talent. In the NBA, superstars win titles, not great "team guys" who aren't superstars. That Hawks team was unbeatable at home. And frankly, if he wasn't intent on resigning Nique, he at least owed it to Nique to keep him on the team, and see if the Hawks to get it done without Jordan being in the league. So what happened in the playoffs? Danny Manning PROVED that he couldn't handle the burden of being a "go-to guy". He was merely an Al Harrington type, who could flourish with great players around him, but not handle being "the man". ( with all of the critics about JJ being a good role player but couldn't be "the man", Manning was the true "role player" who couldn't be a superstar ) His play in that Miami series almost had the Hawks make history. He alone almost cost us to be the first #1 seed to ever lose in the first round of the playoffs. Thankfully, Seattle lost to Denver in that same year, to inherit that dubious honor. But the top seeds in each conference could've very easily went down that year. Then, we lose to an Indiana team in the 2nd round. That's why Hawks fans hate . . ABSOLUTELY HATE BABCOCK !! He cost us an NBA title with that Nique trade. And who's to say that Nique doesn't resign with the team, if another team doesn't give him what he wants? When you compare Peter to BK, BK looks like "Saddam Hussein" compared to Babcock's "Hitler". If given the choice, give me Saddam. No Jordan. And we had home court advantage. And we couldn't even get to the ECF with that (( bleep )) Danny Manning on that team. Why? Because we'd lost our offensive firepower with the departure of Nique. LOL . . Plus we gave Phoenix a 1st round pick in that Manning trade. And people think the JJ for Diaw + 2 picks was a horrible trade. Not compared to that. One more thing. For all of you people that think Babcock is "hands-down" the choice here . . Babcock's first coaching hire . . was Bobby Weiss.

I would love to see Woody shake up the lineup a bit, just to see if he can get a positive response out of the team. How about this lineup to start the game: G - Salim G - JJ F - Childress F - Shelden C - Solomon You don't have to stay with this group for long. Just stay with them to see what kind of energy we can come out with to start the game. If you go with this lineup, you're basically telling Speedy, Marvin, and ZaZa to step up their games. I'd still play those 3 at least 30 minutes, unless Salim and Solomon really responded to being in the starting lineup. But it's the type of thing a coach can do to really shake up his team, and try to get a positive response. Salim is a "me-guy", so he may not even deserve to start. But I've long said that even with all of his flaws, Salim has the "mentality" of a big time scorer in this league, even if he can't run the point one lick. A lot of people don't like the fact that Salim looks to shoot everytime he gets the ball. But that's the "scorers" mentality. The vast majority of the great scorers in this league have that mentality. With Salim, it's all about him taking good shots in rhythm, and not forcing the issue. And with the offense struggling, JJ would have two guys to possibly get the ball to in Salim and Childress. With that lineup, you could alternate who brings the ball up the court between JJ, Salim, and Chill . . while keeping Shelden in the game for muscle and rebounding, and having an active body like Solomon in the game. If it works, Woody looks like a genius, and may go with that group to start games for a while. If it doesn't, Woody can always say that he was just trying to shake up a few people. When you're in a freefall like we are right now, I'm game for any lineup change, for the good of the team.

Quote: Even simplier than what we can do in the Half court set is that we need to get the ball up quicker. We waste so much time walking it up. With a team like ours, from the rebound we should be running. From the inbound we should be running. If nobody comes out to meet the PG, he should go in for a layup. I watched San Antonio just out think us. They waited for us to get lazy and then they were off running. And Marvin... for somebody who is supposed to be such an Athlete, he was dragging ass like Pete Chillcut. And they're the oldest team in the league, and know how to play at any pace. That's what experience will do for you, even if athletically, you don't have the superior team. Conversely, we're the youngest team in the league, and make a lot of "young" mistakes. That's why I ask some of you guys "what kind of team do you want to support?" - Do you want to trade some of our kids right now, to bring in veteran players that know how to play the game? - Or do you want to stick with the kids, and continue to let them go through their growing pains, even if it still means that they may not reach that 35 win level this year? You gotta pick a side Hawks fans. It's either go with the kids . . or give up with what we've acquired over the last 2 - 3 years, and start anew. Risk #1: The kids may not develop into stars, even though Chill and Smoove are easily better players than they were in their rookie seasons. But there is no guarantee that anybody, outside of JJ, will be a star on this team in 2 years. Reward #1: Keeping the kids around may be good for the overall chemistry of the team, when in turn, may elevate one or two of these kids to that "star" level. Risk #2: Trading the kids for veteran players is the same thing that the Hawks used to in the Babcock era. If we don't acquire the right players or have the right coach, we're still at the same level and we're screwed for the future. Reward #2: Bringing in veteran players, while keeping at least 2 of our best young players, may be the quickest way to getting this team back to respectability. So pick a side Hawks fans, and learn to accept the risks and rewards of the decision.

Quote: Paul Westhead isn't the only coach who likes to run. Marc Iavaroni is a runner as well and he knows the PHX system backwards and forwards. I would also look at Stan Van Gundy, a good coach and class guy who would take the job now. We need a new approach right now. LOL @ Westhead. My boy in college used to call him "Westidiot". If the decision is to can Woody, I wouldn't be against bringing in an Ivaroni or a Van Gundy. A lot of you guys wanted Rick Adleman. Even he may be able to get this team to the next level . . which is a borderline playoff level. But once again, we need our top 7 players healthy. Without that, we can't expect the full potential of this team to be maximized, no matter what coach we bring in here.

Diesel, teams have only been able to do this, because of the absence of Lue. When Lue was healthy, JJ would immeadiately look to him, and Lue would drain the jumper and punish that team for trying to double JJ. If Marvin doesn't have the confidence to either catch and shot the ball as soon as he gets it . . or immeaditely take it to the hole, then Chill should be out on the floor with JJ, to give him a high percentage option to go to. People need to get over the fact that Chill has an ugly shot, and truly see that this guy is a very efficient offensive player for this team. ZaZa does have offensive moves, but he'll turn it over 30% of the time when he touches it. He at least gets to the FT line at times. Fans just have to start realizing that we're not the type of team that can afford to have 2 of their top 7 players out of the lineup, and expect everything to be OK. Everybody has a role on this team. So when a person is out, you're not expecting a player who hasn't been in the league more than 2 years, to assume extra duty. This isn't necessarily directed at you, because I think you understand the situation we're in right now. But the youth of this team prohibits us from really persevering through these injuries. - If Lue is hurt, we just can't expect Salim to do the exact same things that Lue brought to the offense. - If Chill is hurt, Ivey or Bozeman can't do the things that he did for the team. - If Smoove is hurt, Shelden isn't ready to be the type of all-around efficient player that Smoove was. - If Speedy is hurt, Lue, Salim, Ivey, or Bozeman can't run the team, and more importantly, defend like he can . . although if Lue's offense is on, it'll make up for his lack of defense. - If Marvin is hurt, it takes away a major athletic player out of the lineup that we can't replace, which forces Smoove and Chill to make up for what Marvin brings to the table. - If ZaZa is hurt, we virtually have no offensive post game to go to. - and if JJ is hurt, we're screwed anyway, because no one on the team is capable of pumping in 20 - 30 points on a moments notice. Each of those 7 players are VITAL to the success of this team. Every other player on the squad is merely a complimentary player that should be getting spot minutes, with Shelden getting the majority of those minutes because of his rebounding and defensive abilities. This season has proved that if one of those 7 are out, that the rest of the team has problems picking up the slack. If two or more are out, we almost never win. It's as simple as that. I agree that Woody's time may be up. But he's not the #1 reason why this team loses. We lose because we desperately need ALL 7 of these guys in the lineup . . healthy.

Interesting. I personally think people make way too much of a big deal of Woody's substitution patterns. You can maybe beef about who should be starting, and who should be on the bench. But a lot of his substitution patters in the beginning of games, are pre-set . . . just like any other coach in the league. Each coach has its guys that they want to take in and out of a game at certain points. It's pretty much a given that, when this team was only missing Marvin, that Woody would first insert Lue for Claxton, then Chill for either Shelden or Smoove, depending which one was in foul trouble. I've even seen people on here complain about Woody taking out some of the starters toward the end of quarters. For those of us who know basketball, that type of move is obviously to protect your key guys from picking up that cheap foul at the end of quarters. Almost every team does this. The Hawks problem with their bench, is that we seem to either give up parts of leads, or have leads extend by a few points, when we take guys like JJ or Smoove out of the game toward the end of a quarter, when they have 2 fouls on them. But it is more important to keep your key guys in the game for most of the 2nd half, than it is to play them major minutes in the first. Once again, EVERY TEAM IN THE LEAGUE does these type of substitutions. But it was the mistakes that our bench was making, that were causing problems. Now that we're short-handed somewhat, these problems really come to a head. Woody is either forced to (a) keep his main guys in the game hand and hope they don't get the cheap foul . . or (b) trust guys like Salim, Ivey, and Freije ( before he was dealt ), to at least maintain where we are on the scoreboard. If we had our full compliment of players, those guys wouldn't have that burden placed on them, if not in the game at all.

One more thing. We're either running the Pick and Roll, or the High Post offense, with ZaZa now at the top of the key, trying to find JJ off the screen, then letting him make the decision with the ball. When that offense was really effective back in November, it was Smoove receiving the ball at the top. He then was able to get the ball to JJ or Lue in the right spots for good looks at the basket. Smoove can force some passes at times, but overall, he is a very good passing forward which enabled us to do good things offensively. And before he got hurt, he was even starting to take the ball to the basket more. You can't lose a player like that, plus lose what he brings on the defensive end, and expect not to have a dropoff in offensive and defensive efficiency. It's incredible. Before Smoove's injury, the Hawks only had 2 games in which they failed to score 82 points or more. LOL . . the last 4 that Smoove has been out, we can't even reach the 82 point barrier. This team basically has no margin for error. IF and WHEN we get everybody healthy, this team will improve drastically. But we truly need ALL of our key cogs healthy, to make this thing work. So as long as we have key guys out, you have to expect this team to struggle mightily at times. We just have to hope that they can break out of this funk, and get everybody back healthy as soon as possible.

BDawg . . what you have to understand, is that the reason why the pick and roll isn't effective now, is because of (b) . . the Hawks not being able to knock down open jumpers. What teams are doing now, is completely smothering JJ when he comes off of that pick. That means all JJ has to do, is find the open man . . which is usually either Speedy or Marvin. And guess what? Neither of those guys are consistently knocking down open jumpers, or attacking the basket like they should, in order to make the possession offensively efficient. When we had Lue, teams couldn't afford to leave him, because Lue was absolutely killing teams that left him open. We've lost 11 out of the last 12. But in the last 7 games that Lue has been out, we've lost all of them. It just goes to show you how important guys who can knock down open shots are . . especially to this team. But if we were to go to a motion type offense, that would still require Speedy and Marvin to be aggressive offensively. Speedy is becoming more aggressive offensively, but he only stays that way if he's knocking down shots. When he starts out cold ( which is most of the time ), he'll stop shooting altogether and defer to someone else. Marvin is altogether a different story. He seems to be afraid to attack the rim at times, because he's picking up 1 or 2 early offensive fouls a game, which is limiting his time on the floor. So he'll settle for jumpers, which isn't his forte yet. The fact that he's shooting under 40% FG right now, illustrates this point to a tee. So to be honest, it isn't the fact that we're still running the pick and roll that's the problem. It's the offensive confidence of the players we have out on the court, that is the true problem. And when you talk about offensive confidence, the only active players that have it now, are JJ, Chill, and Salim ( who runs extremely hot and cold with his shooting ). It'll be interesting to see how long Woody sticks with Marvin in the starting lineup. Because if you ask me, Childress is easily the 2nd best player on the team right now. And with all of the attention being on JJ right now, Woody may be better off starting Chill at the 2 or the 3, and bringing Marvin off the bench. That's not to say that Marvin's minutes should be cut, because I don't think they should. But I think the coaches are really trying to see what they have in this kid, before they make a decision to bring him off the bench. Or maybe they feel pressured to start him, because he was the #2 pick in the 2005 draft. To me, it's kind of the same experiment they were doing with Smoove last year. And if you remember, they had to bench Smoove for a few games last year, until he got his game right. It's just hard to justify NOT having Chill out on the floor to start games now, especially with Smoove being out. He's outshooting, outrebounding, and is mentally a better ballplayer than Marvin right now. I say, keep playing Marvin 30+ minutes a game. But start Childress. I've said since Day 1, that it shouldn't matter who starts the game, when you have to make a decision between Smoove, Shelden, Chill, and Marvin, because they all bring different things to the table. But right now, this team is struggling mightily offensively. Woody's best bet may be to start Chill, and see if he can take some of the heat off of JJ early in games. Then bring Marvin in against the other team's 2nd team, to see if he can gain some offensive confidence, and do some damage against them.

Quote: Quote: If you have never played an organized sport and if you are not competitive, you don't know how losing effects a team. If you really want us to tank, you should advocate us doing it the right way... by trading all of our good players for midround picks and ending contracts. Because otherwise, your planting the seeds for continued failure. Somebody should frame these 3 sentences, and post it on the main page of Hawksquawk.net Because it's the absolute truth. As a former athlete myself on the high school and college level, I've experienced both sides of the coin. And losing flat out sucks. You think wathing your favorite team lose is bad. Trust me when I tell you that the players feel 10 times as worse as the fans do, because they're the ones actually playing the games and losing. In fairness, Cleveland tanked like crazy to get Lebron James and things are looky pretty damn good for the future in Cleveland despite the stain of their tanking. Getting a franchise-changing talent cures all ills. The downside, is you are never guaranteed to get a franchise-changing talent. If Cleveland drops in the lottery like Boston did when Rick Pitino signed on then the tanking doesn't look quite as good. (If Boston had gotten Duncan it would have totally been worth it. Without him, you can second guess that strategy...along with their decision to cut ties immediately with Billups). LOL @ Cleveland tanking. This was Cleveland's team that year. http://databasebasketball.com/teams/teamye...LE&lg=N&yr=2002 That team was just sorry. That's like saying that we tanked in 2003, to the get #2 pick. We were just sorry.

I think we can all agree that when the Spurs acquired Tim Duncan with the top pick in 1997, that it was the type of "fortune-changing" move that some expect a top 3 pick to always be for a franchise. Well let's go from that moment on, and see what the fortunes of the top 3 picks have been, since 1998. 1998 (1) Olowankandi - complete bust (2) Mike Bibby - good scoring PG, but never a great one. Decent floor leader. Has experienced winning, but has slowly digressed over the past 3 years. (3) Raef LaFrentz - journeyman big man who can shoot, but can't defend. 1999 (1) Elton Brand - has developed into one of the elite PFs in the game, but didn't win anything until a veteran PG came to his team ( Cassell ) (2) Steve Francis - tremendous all-star talent for a few years. Labeled as a selfish player who tend to self-destruct at the end of games. Could never truly handle being "the man". Currently rotting away with the Knicks (3) Baron Davis - tremendous all-star talent who is very injury prone. Has played in a few playoff series when in Charlotte. A notch above Mike Bibby, when you talk about PGs. 2000 (1) Kenyon Martin - a very good PF when teamed with Jason Kidd, who could get him the ball in the best position to score. Was a key cog in Jersey's NBA Finals runs. Without Kidd, he's become an injury-prone, mediocre PF at best. (2) Stromile Swift - a perennial backup F/C for almost all of his career. An athletic freak who never panned out to be anything special. 6 years later, he still hasn't developed much more than when he was a rookie. (3) Darius Miles - good player who has serious attitude problems. Extremely athletic and shows promise of being a good SF in this league. Right now, he's merely a complimentary player. 2001 (1) Kwame Brown - widely considered a bust in most circles, but has come around to at least be a serviceable center with the Lakers. Has a chance to develop into a decent center, but nowhere near a good one. (2) Tyson Chandler - a great rebounder and a good shot blocker, but a horrible offensive player who is a little too frail ( or soft ) to play center. Right now, Manute Bol has had a better NBA career than Tyson. (3) Pau Gasol - a good PF/C who has stedily improved each year in the league. He can now be looked at as a franchise player, but doesn't deliver like one when playing against equal competition. Still room for him to improve though. 2002 (1) Yao Ming - was soft at first, but has rapidly developed into a dominant offensive player in the league. A perennial all-star caliber center for at least the next 5 - 8 years. (2) Jay Williams - struggled mightily in his rookie year before his motorcycle injury effectively ended his career (3) Mike Dunleavy - a decent G/F that a team could insert into its starting lineup, and have him be the #4 option in an offense. Nothing great about Mikey. 2003 (1) LeBron James - instantly proved he was worth all the hype. Has rapidly improved to be a top 5 caliber player in the NBA. Still may need another all-star caliber player to get to the NBA finals. But LeBron is the truth. (2) Darko Milicic - right now, no more than a good player to bring off the bench. Arguably the worst top 3 pick since Olowokandi. (3) Carmelo Anthony - has lived up to his hype coming out of a National Title at Syracuse. The type of impact player every great team needs. Still needs better talent around him to win . . oh wait . . he also has Iverson now. Maybe that'll be enough 2004 (1) Dwight Howard - possibly the "prototype" for future centers in the NBA. Still raw offensively, but has developed into a dominant rebounder and defensive force in the paint. Should go to many all-star games in his carrer. Team wise, he may need another all-star caliber player in order to experience playoff winning. (2) Emeka Okafor - a shot blocking machine who is improving with each game. Team isn't talented enough to win on a consistent basis, but he is a good building block for that team to build around. Problem is . . he's already been there 2.5 years, and the team hasn't improved much at all. (3) Ben Gordon - a streaky combo guard who looks like the 2nd coming of Vinny Johnson one minute, and the 2nd coming of Vinny Del Negro the next. A good player to have on your team, with other good to great players around him 2005 (1) Andrew Bogut - hasn't had the impact that many expected him to have. But he is improving and showing that he belongs in the NBA. (2) Marvin Williams - athletic SF who many say has tremdous upside. Hasn't found his offensive niche yet, so his growth may be slower than expected. (3) Deron Williams - a good young PG who understands how to play the game. He can defend. His shot needs major work. Maybe a few all-nba defensive teams in the future. So there you have it . . . the top 3 picks from 1998 - 2005. Comments? Questions? Still want to tank to get a top 3 pick?

Diesel, you make a great point about Oden possibly staying in school. People close to Oden knows that (1) he is an excellent student, and (2) he may like college life enough to stay until his junior year. That was one of the things being discussed during one of Ohio State's games a few weeks ago. Bottom line: Just because Oden could be the consensus #1, doesn't mean that it's a lock for the kid to come out this year. If Ohio St. doesn't reach its goals, he could very well return for one more year, and not go for the money . . because he knows the money will always be there whenever he decides to come out. But when I look at the various comments in all of the threads, I just wonder what the fan base here really want? People were so against the Iverson trade, even though adding AI to this team with JJ, would've given us the best backcourt in the league. That move may not lead to an NBA title, but it could've secured a playoff spot for us. That means that we'd have to give up some of our young talent. This is a move that a vocal minority on this board feels needs to be done in the future anyway. But they were totally against bringing in AI. Then on the flip side, they grow tired of watching the young guys struggle at times, and have no patience to see if they can actually develop into consitent players. So when we lose, they want to throw the season away, to bring in MORE young guys who will take time to develop. So which is it Hawks fans? Do you want to win now, by bringing in a veteran player and possibly trading off one of the kids? Or can you have the patience to see if the kids can come around to possibly win now, or next year? This board was pretty much split on if we could make the playoffs or not anyway with the current squad. So you have to pick a side, and stay with it. It can't be an "either/or" to these questions. You have to prefer to do one or the other, and stand by what you believe. Personally, I'll stick with the kids. I think it's more important for this current team to build some chemistry and learn how to play with each other on both ends of the floor. So far, they haven't really had a chance to do that yet. People are down on Marvin, but they forget that this would've been his first year as a starter. When you look at his numbers, he actually isn't playing bad, he's just not playing like we all thought he would. And you have to attribute that to him missing all of those games to start the season. There's no way that Marvin alone could replace what Al gave us offensively last year. But he does need time to see what kind of scorer he wants to be in this league. If he's not ready, then bring him off the bench and start Chill. Plenty of people on this board have given Smoove a pass, because the excuse for him is "well he's a slow starter". Smoove actually proved them right, by becoming a much more efficient player in December, than he was in January. So my question is . . should Marvin also get the benefit of the doubt and see if he can raise his game in the month of January? From Diesel: If you have never played an organized sport and if you are not competitive, you don't know how losing effects a team. If you really want us to tank, you should advocate us doing it the right way... by trading all of our good players for midround picks and ending contracts. Because otherwise, your planting the seeds for continued failure. Somebody should frame these 3 sentences, and post it on the main page of Hawksquawk.net Because it's the absolute truth. As a former athlete myself on the high school and college level, I've experienced both sides of the coin. And losing flat out sucks. You think wathing your favorite team lose is bad. Trust me when I tell you that the players feel 10 times as worse as the fans do, because they're the ones actually playing the games and losing.

LOL @ comparing construction projects, with the grind of playing professional sports. I'm sure your construction friend wasn't exerting himself to the maximum for about 2.5 hours, 3 times a week. The better comparison would be with Donovan McNabb, who tried his best to play with his sports hernia, but had to shut it down when it started to really affect his performance and how he felt from day to day. If you were a manager at work that had to walk around a little, I'm sure that you could still go to work on a high ankle sprain. But try playing basketball 2 hours on a high ankle sprain, and see how effective you are.

LOL @ this board. It's so easy to scapegoat this team and the decisions that they've made . . NOW. It's too easy, in my opinion. Question: What would the Hawks record be, if all of the injuries handn't crippled this team? Answer: Ask that same question about the Miami Heat, and come up with your answer. ( And it's not even the Shaq injury with the Heat. It's also the Jason Williams injury at the beginning of the season. They lost two major cogs to their team, and they're currently on the outside looking in, as far as the playoffs go. And now, Flash is day-to-day with a hand injury. ) This Hawks were build to run and play defense. Those are the type of players that we've acquired here. So far this season, we haven't been able to come close to maximizing the full potential of this team, because everybody keeps getting hurt. It's funny though. Everything was great when we were 4 - 1, and were one of the BEST defensive teams in the league. Anybody remember those days? This team could've easily been 6 - 1, if not for a horrible Michael Redd and-1 call, and a great shot by Ray Allen in OT to beat us. Even with all of that, we've been a pretty competitive team the entire season, no matter who we played. LOL @ those of you who think that this team can't win an NBA title. Of course we can't. How about concentrating on making the playoffs first, then tweaking the roster to make a run for a championship first. LOL . . I'm sure that the UTAH Jazz were thinking "NBA title" when they made the move to acquire Boozer 2 years ago. LOL . . that team was only concerned about replacing the Mailman with an adequate PF. By the way, Utah can't win an NBA title with their current roster either. They'll definitely have to tweak that roster once or twice in the next few years, if they become a perennial playoff team. But they have put themselves in position to return to the playoffs. And frankly, I think we put ourselves in that same position as well, at the start of the season. But your PG gets hurt before the preseason. Then your starting SF gets hurt right before the season. We play well despite those two being out of the lineup, then other people start getting hurt. All of you wanting to indict this team right now, just do me a favor. If this team gets back to full strength, and they start to win, don't FLIP-FLOP on how you feel about the makeup of this team. Stay consistent in your criticism, even if we're winning 5 - 7 games in a row.

True fans of this team would NEVER want to see the Hawks tank the season, just to get a top 3 pick. Take that for what you want. It's one thing if you just couldn't compete on the same level night after night, like 3 years ago. LOL @ tanking the season just to get a pick. By the way, the "great" Greg Oden got completely dominated by Florida last weekend. He didn't even look like a top 15 player, let alone the consensus #1. I know the kid is still a little hurt, but he doesn't look like a "once in a generation" type center to me. I got to see Kevin Durant play against my Vols last weekend as well ( great win by the Vols, by the way ). Durant looks to be a good player, but the Garnett comparisons are way too soon as well. LOL . . what makes people think everything will change if we get either of those two players? We've been in the lottery for what . . 6 - 7 years now? The best thing for this team to do, is to keep this squad together, and let them play as hard as they can on a nightly basis. Real ballplayers don't like to lose, so you just can't tell your guys to just "give up". Especially not young guys. I bet the Bobcats don't take the season, just to get Oden or Durant, so why should we? Matter of fact, let me take this one more step. Any of you wanting to see YOUR FAVORITE team to lose the vast majority of their games this year, should just turn in your "Hawks fan membership", and never return. We definitely don't need those types of fans amongst our small fan base.

Quote: I dont watch the Titans much, so is the 51% a product of having bad receivers/lineman, or is he just not making the throws? Im sure its not play calling, because I think Jeff Fisher is one of the top 5 coaches in the NFL I watch the Titans every week, seeing that I live in Titans country. Young, at times, is way off with his passes, especially the short touch passes. But he's gotten better and better at throwing the short to intermediate pass. The receivers he throws to, would'nt be no mroe than the #3 guy on any other team in the league, including the Falcons. Vince might actually be a little better than he is now, if he had a receiver the quality of Michael Jenkins or Ashlie Lelie . . and we all know that they're only average receivers on their best day. Bennett is a #3 receiver. Jones is getting better, but is no more than a #3 receiver, possibly a #4 receiver. Bobby Wade has personally dropped about 3 Vince Young TD passes himself. The Titans do have David Givens, from the Patriots, but he has been hurt the majority of the year. So for the Titans to be able to do anything on offense, is a miracle. Travis Henry does have a lot to do with the good fortunes of the Titans. You can also add what Pacman Jones brings to the table as a DB and as a KR/PR, as a big reason why the Titans are winning right now. But make no mistake about it. This team is winning, mainly because of Vince Young and what he's able to do in the 4th quarter.

Quote: Quote: Well nobody in the league is good enough to win games by themselves. Not even Tomlinson. So why hold that against a rookie QB? I dont think anyone is claiming he is the MVP of the league, but good grief, the guy has obviously earned the praise he has been getting. He only completes 51% of his passes. Granted, I think he'll be a better thrower than Vick, but he's had 3 or 4 starts this year throwing under 100 yards. That's not how a QB is supposed to play. LOL @ hotlanta. You haven't even been paying attention to how Vince has been playing. He was supposed to struggle in his first few starts as a rookie QB, because EVERY rookie QB struggles. But to arbitrarily say that he's only completing 51% of this passes, is like saying that Smoove hasn't improved as a shooter, because he's only shooting 43% FG . . even though we all know that he's shot over 50% in December. Vince Young's numbers during the Titans 6 game win streak. @ PHI: 8 - 22 - 101 yds . . 1 TD . . 49 yds rushing vs NYG: 24 - 35 - 249 yds . . 2 TD . . 69 yds rushing - 1 TD vs IND: 15 - 25 - 163 yds . . 2 TD - 2 INT . . 78 yds rushing @ HOU: 19 - 29 - 218 yds . . 1 INT . . 86 yds rushing - 1 TD vs JAX: 8 - 15 - 85 yds . . 4 yds rushing vs BUF: 13 - 20 - 183 yds . . 2 TD . . 61 yds rushing - 1 TD Total: 87 - 144 - 60.4% comp - 999 yds 7 TD - 3 INT 347 yds rushing - 3 rushing TDS 1,246 total yds - 10 total TDs Three come from behind 4th quarter wins and one OT win. I like Mike Vick a lot, but Young is already better than Vick beacause of two major reasons. When Vick gets in trouble, he tends to step backwards, takes his eyes off from downfield, tries to beat people to whatever side he's rolled to, and then make the decision to either run or throw. Most of the time, his best decision is to run, because he can't pick up where his receivers are. Vick is in his 6th year in the league, 5th as a starter, and still does the SAME THING. When Young gets in trouble, he almost never takes his eyes from downfield, almost always either steps up in the pocket or slides to one side, looks downfield FIRST, then decides to either throw the ball or run. He's a rookie, and he already knows when to turn upfield, and not look to immeadiately run when he gets in trouble. Most importantly, Vince is a born leader that the Titans players already completely trust. Mike is a great athletic QB who exhibits very little leadership qualities. LOL @ that's not how a QB is supposed to play. A QB is supposed to lead his team to victory, no matter how he does it. And that's exactly what Vick does. That'll be like complaining that a PG shoots too much and has a limited number of assists, because a PG is supposed to make his team better by getting them the ball. Tell that to a scoring PG like a Sam Cassell, who has always been labeled as a winner, even though he's not particularly regarded as being a great PG.

(( taking the weed away from Johnny )) I know our defensive issues at center is bad right now. But Andersen isn't going to solve that problem. I mean, he's maybe a foot taller than Solomon Jones, but I guarantee that Solomon is a better defender than he is. If all we're worried about is getting a defender in the middle, why not call up the Mavericks, and see which one of our "expendible" players they would want for DeSagana Diop. Because Dampier is playing much better this year, Diop isn't getting nearly the minutes he got last year. Maybe you can call up Cuban, and see if Dallas would do a ZaZa for Diop and Mbenga trade. LOL . . even Pops Mensa-Bonsu would be a better "value" fit here, than spending a boatload of money on Andersen . . and Pops can't even get off the bench in Dallas. Prediction: Down the stretch of games, Smoove may be guarding the other team's center, with Marvin and Chill or Shelden in the game, to complete the frontline. ZaZa will be relegated to being that scoring option we can go to for the first 3 quarters.

Quote: Quote: Ya think a strong coach would allow that sort of thing?...Not likely...he would have taken the bull by the horns himself...of course a strong coach wouldn't have allowed the collapse in the first place. Really? Quote: Shareef Abdur-Rahim scored 21 points, including a 3-pointer in the final minute, and the Sacramento Kings rallied from a 16-point deficit to beat the Utah Jazz 98-97 Friday I guess Jerry Sloan is a weak coach... Quote: When Seattle’s lead grew to 14 it seemed the Mavericks were just on the wrong side of destiny on this rainy night in the Pacific Northwest. The Mavericks’ bench is the fifth-worst in the league in terms of their point contribution, coming in right at 22 points per contest prior to the Seattle game. There was little reason to hope that someone would step in and help the Mavs recover. Jerry Stackhouse has been struggling with a groin injury all season (and much of last season, for that matter), and even when he has been in the lineup his shooting touch has been off. Devean George was expected to be a force off the bench, but has also had a hard time getting healthy and getting into Avery’s system. It’s safe to say that the Mavericks’ fate seemed to be sealed when Nowitzki hit the court. It didn’t take a 60-year old boxer coming out of retirement to save the day for the Mavs, but what happened seemed almost as unlikely. They used a 19-8 run to open the second half, a 10-0 run in the fourth, and a gargantuan performance from their stalwart center to turn what looked like a sure loss into a 103-95 win over the Sonics. I guess Seattle's coach sucks too. You see DJay, Sometimes, it has nothing to do with coaching but it's about boneheaded plays committed... and sometimes, it's your best players who committ them. What's a coach to do? Pull the best player? Or sometimes, it's because of the loss of momentum. Aside from calling timeouts and making what you feel is the right adjustment, there's nothing that can be done there either. I don't blame Woody for what the team does. I blame him for some things that may be in-game. But to say that another coach would have stoppped the slide is silly. It just may be that another coach would not have had the 21 point lead in the first place. However, JJ is right, the team has to do the things that got it to the lead. That's not coaching more than it is experience. Excellent post Diesel. People think everything in sports revolves around coaching. Well, even good coaches can look like crap, when they have players making horrible decisions on the floor. ( see Larry Brown ). The Knicks are playing better this year under Isaiah, than under Brown. But no one in their right mind would say that Zeke is a better coach than Brown, because of that. What was bad about Wednesday's meltdown, is that it happened offensively AND defensively. When you see a meltdown on both sides of the ball, that's not coaching. That's all on the players.

Thank you for starting this topic, because I was going to start the exact same thread. The next 5 games are critical for this team, when you see the quality of opponents that we play. While the East is horrible, a 5 or 6 game losing streak could absolutely kill this team right now. With 1/4 of the season gone, I've made these observations about the Hawks. - We can play with . . and BEAT . . 85% of the teams in this league, on a nightly basis, no matter where the game is . . if JJ is healthy. It's all a matter of finishing games and putting a team away. Right now, we just can't do it, unless the opponent completely melts down. - This team plays much better when playing from behind, than playing with the lead. Why . . I don't know. Maybe it's the youth we have on this team, and kids not wanting to make mistakes down the stretch. Young kids tend to either "overthink", or be extra cautious when ahead. But when you're behind, you're just out there playing, and not getting down on yourself if you make a bad play. - JJ, T-Lue, and Salim are the only people on this team I trust taking big shots down the stretch of games. But there's a catch to that. Because T-Lue and Salim are so horrible defensively, and can't run the team the way a good PG should, it's almost counter-productive to have them on the floor down the stretch. If they happen to score, they may give the points right back on the defensive end, or worse, turn the ball over and limit our offensive possessions. - Since Woodson laid into Smoove about taking all of those 3's back in late November, he has become a much more efficient offensive player. He's actually taking good shots within the flow of the game. - Josh Childress may be the 3rd most important player on this team, next to JJ and Smoove. We miss his ability to knock down open shots, get loose balls, and play defense on the 2s and 3s in this league. We're 4 - 3 with Chill in the lineup . . which could've easily have been a 6 - 1 record, if not for the last second losses to Seattle and Milwaukee. We're 5 - 12 without him. - For Marvin to really help this team, he must become this team's "slasher". While his jumper may be slightly improved, we need him to be the guy who can take his man off the dribble whenever he has a decided mismatch. And I know he's still not 100% with his hand, but if he wants to elevate his game to the next level, he'll have to be the guy who goes to the hole and finishes, or draws enough contact to get his points from the line. - JJ is a star, but to be a superstar, he has to DEMAND the basketball down the stretch, and make a play HIMSELF. I know he's a good guy, a great teammate, and plays within the offense. But as "the man" for this team, he has to be WILLING to take every shot in the 4th quarter, if need be. And he can't settle for the jumper all the time, no matter how good of a shooter he is. Like Marvin, he has to be ready and WILLING to go to the hole and draw contact, so that he can score from the FT line. This team, as a whole, wastes too many possessions, because we're settling for jumpers. For all of the critics of Allen Iverson, you KNEW that Iverson was going to be the guy taking the shots down the stretch. That may not be great "team ball", but a superstar should ALWAYS take the game into his own hands, and have the fortunes of his team live and die with him. D-Wade does it. AI does it. LeBron does it, although he will pass on occasion. Steve Nash does it when the game is close. Paul Pierce ALWAYS does it. KG doesn't do it all the time, and he gets ripped for that. And right now, JJ is in that KG mode, in which he's deferring to other players at the wrong time, when he should be doing it himself. I'd rather for JJ to defer to others in the early part of games, than down the stretch. - ZaZa is getting to the point where he's in the same category as Salim and T-Lue defensively. And I'll say again what I predicted before the season. If Shelden shows the ability to guard centers in this league, ZaZa will be the one who's playing time is cut, just so he won't be a complete liability on defense. If not Shelden, it may even be Lorenzen who is in the game down the stretch. But if we go with a non-offensive center, that makes it more important for JJ, Marvin, Smoove or whomever else, to make plays on offense. LOL . . I could type for days on this team, but I'll stop here. Let's see if this team plays an inspired game against Indy tonight.

The key for this team is to not fall too far below .500 I say that if they fall 8 games below .500 before the All-Star break, the talk of playoffs may be out the window. Once January comes, there are no more excuses for this team. They should be fully healthy by that time. If they're going to be a playoff team, they need to start putting together some win streaks. - win 5 in a row . . lose 1 . . win 3 . . lose 2 . . win 6 But as long as they stay around .500, they have a legit shot at that #8 seed.

You have to remember that Moore is the same guy that said before the season started, that we still needed a guard here . . a guard like a Mike Bibby. LOL . . I lost all respect for that cat right when he said that. Bibby doesn't even shoot as well as Salim these days, and he's never been a playmaking PG. I try not to read anything T-Moore writes. And that's a shame.

Quote: I think JJ's All-Star bid will depend on how quickly he returns to form. If he picks back up tonight where he left off before his injury, I think he will make the team over Redd and one of the PGs. I think if JJ shot 50% FG 45% 3FG and averaged 30 ppg until the break, that he still might get snubbed for the All-Star game. The one thing that can elevate his status, is if the Hawks start winning on a consistent basis, or put up a 5 - 7 game win streak. We're going to have to do that at some point in the season anyway to have a shot at the playoffs. January would be the perfect time for that to happen for the sake of the Hawks, and for the sake of JJ making the All-Star team.