TheNorthCydeRises

Quote: We don't know who has earned what in summer league, practice at summer league, training camp, practice last year... So let's see what they go with and how it works. The coaches have one goal, and that's to make us a better team. That should be our goal too. They have a lot more info than us and make their decisions for a reason. This can only work if the players are reasonable and unselfish and accept that coming off the bench is not an insult, everyone can get minutes. How do you guys expect the players to accept it when some of you can't even do it? I do think that it will be interesting to see who starts tonight though, because it is fair to assume that whoever starts tonight are the current projected starters in the coaching staff's mind. Even if it does not end up being our starters, whoever is out will have to show something to earn his way back into the lineup. I wonder if we will have a permanent starting 5 in the regular season or if we will change it from game to game depending on matchups. I think that's how I might do it. Marvin/Smith to go offensive or to abuse a slow PF Smith/Shelden to go defensive or to stop a big boy Marvin/Shelden for some balance and a more traditional lineup But it's PRESEASON. You said it right in your opening sentence Lascar. The only thing I disagree with you, is the importance of who is starting tonight. Woodson has 8 games to see which combination works at the forward spots to start off a game. He can keep rotating these guys all preseason, before making a decision on who starts and who doesn't. I just want the lineup out there that gives us the best chance at victory. I could care less who comes off the bench between Smoove, Marvin, or Shelden. And if someone's ego gets hurt, well, maybe that'll motivate them to play harder and get that place in the starting lineup. It may very well be that even Lorenzen is better suited to start for this team, instead of ZaZa. The only guy who should have a secure starting spot on this team, is JJ. Everybody else should be treating this preseason as an audition for a starting job.

A lot of conflicting reports about this story. Some say Lidle is dead. Others say that an instructor and a student pilot was on board Lidle's plane ( according to CNN Headline News ). The only thing known in stone, is that Lidle's passport was found at the scene, and that Lidle owns the plane.

This is preseason. There's nothing wrong with bringing Josh off the bench tonight, and starting him in the next game with one of the other guys coming off the bench. That's how I'd go at it. I'd even let Salim start a few preseason games at the point, just to see how he responds. I'd even start Lorenzen a few games at center.

Come on man. Terrance is an excellent actor. Just because he excells at one type of role, doesn't mean that he isn't a great actor. You could say the same thing about guys like Jack Nicholson, Gary Busey ( who always plays the psycho villian, but is very good at playing that role ), and Denzel Washington ( who always played the "good guy", until he did the movie "TRaining Day" . . which won him an Oscar because he was so convincing as the "bad guy". )

LOL @ you and your "challenges". You and the rest of the world already know that Sene isn't going to see significant minutes in his rookie year. Sene could very well win that challenge, playing in "garbage time". Shelden, on the other hand, is definitely going to be in the mix against starting frontline players, even if he isn't the starter. Another significant difference between who Sene will be guarding, and who Shelden will be guarding, is that Sene will mainly be matched up against centers. And we all know how weak the center position is in the NBA. And if he's playing in garbage time, he'll be matched up against scrub centers. Salim Stoudamire was the perfect example of a guy who excelled when the game was already decided. How many insignificant points did he score last year? I believe if you go to 82games.com, Salim was one of our more effective players offensively and had good +/- minutes . . according to their statistics. But every Hawk fan knows that Salim was at times more of a liability, than an asset. We know that because we actually WATCHED the games, not just go by what his stats said.

VERY GOOD OBSERVATION MR. BUZZARD !! I'm all about seeing this team improve, no matter who we have out on the floor. I know we have a lot of Josh Smith fans here, but I still don't like the fact that he seems to coast more often than not. He may have superstar skills, but he doesn't have a superstar work ethic yet. Some people on this board are already talking like Smoove and Marvin are all-star players, or are locks to be that. LOL . . nothing is a lock in the NBA. I routinely call Smoove the "Black AK47", but Andrei works much harder than Smoove does.

I think this will make for interesting reading, seeing how everybody is putting all of this weight on who and what the 5th pick in the draft is supposed to be for a team. 1990 - Kendall Gill ( Charlotte ) 1991 - Steve Smith ( Miami ) 1992 - LaPhonzo Ellis ( Denver ) 1993 - J.R. Rider ( T-Wolves ) 1994 - Juwan Howard ( Washington ) 1995 - Kevin Garnett ( T-Wolves ) 1996 - Ray Allen ( T-Wolves .. then dealt to Milwaukee ) 1997 - Tony Battie ( Denver ) 1998 - Vince Carter ( G-State ) 1999 - Johnathan Bender ( Indy ) 2000 - Mike Miller ( Orlando ) 2001 - Jason Richardson ( G-State . . later acquired by Toronto ) 2002 - Nikoloz Tskitishvili ( Denver ) 2003 - Dwyane Wade ( Miami ) 2004 - Devin Harris ( Dallas ) 2005 - Raymond Felton ( Charlotte ) 2002 - Shelden Williams ( Atlanta ) The list is impressive, and intriguing at the same time. You have at least have 4 future HOF players here, barring injury ( Garnett, Carter, Allen, and Wade ) You have 3 guys . . ( who I don't want to call straight up "busts", although Skita is definitely a bust ) . . that definitely underachieved and didn't reach expectations. But for the most part, this list is full of guys who may not have begin their career as a starter, but developed into a solid starter that made significant contributions to their team by year 2. Some on this board believe that you can get franchise changing players with the 5th pick. Well, in this sample, that's about 25 - 30% right. But when you look at that list, all of the "star" players on this list got a chance to be "the man" for their respective teams, by year 2 . . with the rest going on to become dependable starters. So which is it guys? Is Shelden closer to Juwan Howard and LaPhonzo Ellis . . . or is he closer to Skita and Tony Battie?

(( Laughing and shaking my head . . . talking to the Lord )) "Lord . . I at least tried to explain the situation to the man, but he worries so much that no one can ease his anxiety." I like the way you take "soundbites" of posts, and respond to them, instead of the entire thought in a paragraph. In one of your responses, I was specifically talking about Marvin replacing Harrington, and you respond with this? "SW "exhibits more raw talent than Harrington"? What planet are you from? When I think SW I utterly do not think "raw talent". I just had to laugh at that response from you. And you did it more than once in your last response. Walter, bottom line is this: - YES, we do need a legit center here. But a LEGIT one, not a prospect. Olowokandi was a prospect. Sene is a prospect. We need a LEGIT big man here. - NO, Shelden isn't suppressing neither Josh Smith or Marvin Williams. - YES, the Hawks will probably re-sign Josh Smith . . IF . . he shows some consistency and marked improvement. - YES, the Hawks would like to retain Chill, if he shows that same improvement. But he's definitely expendible. - NO, not many teams will be able to throw tons of money at Josh, especially the ones already well under the cap. Why? Because they already have very good SFs or young SFs that they're trying to develop. - YES, Marvin will be a Hawk through 2009. - NO, we don't have to worry about Marvin until that time. - YES, Marvin or Smoove may very well become the best player on this team in 3 years. - YES, there's a chance that we may have to move one of them, but there's that same chance that we could retain BOTH of them. - YES, Shelden will be able to hold his own on the NBA level as he fine tunes his game to the NBA style of play, not the Duke system style. - YES, this entire argument is crazy, seeing that neither guy is going anywhere anytime soon, unless we feel the need to trade them. Now if you want to individually go down and break down the post, you can. Personally, I'm looking forward to Wednesday in Memphis. I'm going to try to get down there and catch the game.

LOL Walter will come around, when Shelden is doing those little things to help us win games. Then again, maybe he won't. Because that will mean that he was wrong all along. Can/will he admit that he was wrong?

Keep Salim in that "hired gun" role. When he comes into the game, let him get off 2 - 3 shots in those first few minutes. If he hits a couple in a row, keep him in the game and let him do his thing. If he's cold, send him back to the bench. Salim should only see significant minutes ( 16 - 22 minutes/game ) if he's red hot.

Quote: And why are people all up in arms about Marvin or Smoove coming off the bench? Because they're smart people. Smart? Really? If anything, bringing Marvin or Smoove off the bench will give this team some extra firepower to play against the other 2nd teamers in this league. It's obvious that none of you have even considered that the guy coming off the bench, could very well be the #1 option in the offense from the end of the 1st quarter through the early and mid 2nd quarter . . and also from the end of the 3rd quarter through the early and mid 4th quarter. This is the time when JJ is more likely to get his rest, so we're going to need a guy who can keep the offensive momentum going when he's out. Which forward combo would you rather have out on the floor when JJ is out and the other starter needs some rest . . Marvin/Smoove and Childress . . or Shelden and Childress? Because if you start both Marvin and Smoove, both of those guys will more than likely be out of the game once the 1st and 3rd quarter ends. So if the scenario comes about where Marvin or Smoove is coming off the bench, one of those guys will have a great opportunity to shine when the starters are out. It's the very reason why a guy like Jerry Stackhouse NEVER complained about coming off the bench, even though he's a far better player than a guy like Adreian Griffin or a Devin Harris. Quote: When it is all said and done, both guys will get 30 minutes a game, and both guys could arguably be in the game during crunch time, depending on who we're playing and what the situation is in the game. 1) we traded Harrington for peanuts and Diaw as a "throw-in" because JS and MW were supposed to start at the forwards and because MW and because of our existing forward glut respectively. 2) JS and MW are significantly more talented than SW with either MW or JS. 3) Neither MW or JS will resign to be a BU. 4) Their value diminishes as a BU 1) LOL . . we were lucky to get anything for Al, seeing that he was an unrestricted free agent. Most unrestricted free agents in this league leave teams without the team getting anything back in return. Harrington was traded to make room for Marvin, there's no doubt on that. But that's because most people could see that Harrington was incapable of being the star player or the leader of this team. And his presence on the defensive end was killing this team. So why not get a younger guy that exhibits more raw talent than a guy like Harrington, who is probably as good as he's going to get now. Diaw was a straight up SCRUB here. Don't act like the entire world saw this great all-star caliber player 2 years ago. YOU didn't even see it. Even his situation in Phoenix came about because of injury. If Amare and KT were healthy, Diaw never plays center for that team, and would be relegated to being a key role player off the bench that MIGHT get you 9 points, 5 rebs, and 4 assists. The minutes for Diaw to do his thing simply wouldn't have been there. Those are good numbers for a BENCH player though. Having said that, the choice between Marvin and Diaw was a NO BRAINER 15 months ago. It'll be like justifying keeing Royal Ivey but letting him go. Then when he went to his new team, he blossomed into a rising star at the combo guard position. When that happens, a person like you would be crying to the heavens, talking about how we should've kept Ivey . . lol. 2) Of course JS and MW are more talented than SW. But when we play teams with a strong frontcourt, a JS/MW starting lineup may not be in the best interest of the Hawks. You forget that just about every PF in the league last year, had a field day against us. If JS or MW can't effectively guard PFs, then you HAVE to start Shelden and play him significant minutes there, until one or both of those guys can prove that they can defend PFs in this league. Shelden himself even has to prove that he can guard PFs. But his body type makes him a better candidate to be successful defensively and on the boards. 3) And you know this how? Marvin is in his 2nd year and has a lot to prove. He's not going to be discouraged if he's the one coming off the bench, but still getting 30 minutes a game. It won't be until both of these guys prove that they can be viable #2 options for a team, that they MIGHT become disgruntled. If one of those guys are coming off the bench, but is averaging 15 - 17 ppg . . 7 rebs . . in 30 minutes of game time . . and is consistently in the game during crunch time, you won't hear too much out of either guy. 4) Wrong again Walter. You're assuming that because one of the guys aren't starting, that their value diminishes. LOL . . tell that to T-Mac, who went from a key 6th man with the Raptors, to superstardom with the Magic. That may very well be the destiny of either Marvin or Smoove. But that destiny won't be sidetracked if one of them is coming off the bench and still getting 30 minutes a game and making big plays down the stretch. Your argument that Marvin or Josh may want to leave in a few years, further strengthens the argument for having Shelden around. And even that argument is flawed, because we can pay Josh his money in 2008, and not even have to worry about Marvin until the 2009 season. Two years gives us plenty of time to see which player will be the best, and if it is in the best interest of the Hawks to keep one or both guys. Quote: And you keep harping on the fact that Shelden was the #5 pick, like he's supposed to be the savior of the franchise or something. The Hawks needed interior talent . . . PERIOD. I can get that for the mid-level Ex. I can pay slightly more for a say Pryz and not bench JS or MW. LOL . . almost all of your arguments are based on wild and improbable speculation. It's pretty obvious that Przy wasn't going to be easy to pry away from Portland. With all of these teams needing a center, it was Portland who was able to keep the guy, plus add other people to the mix. Oh I know, your master plan would be to draft Roy and play him a the point, and make a run a Przy in free agency. But if you failed to get Przy, we'd be right back to square 1 with our interior defense issue. We'd have a nice run and gun team, but we'd still get murdered on the inside, thus, we'd still lose a ton of close games. Or your 2nd plan was to trade down and draft Sene and get that great Hawks center of the future . . lol. Your entire thinking is flawed Walter. Everybody on this board knows it but you. Quote: So they took what they thought was the best interior player on the board, in Shelden. He will not be better than Sene within 4 years no matter hwo you compare them. Is SW costing us JS or MW and the necessary talent to contend worth that when bigger, better prospects were available? LOL . . who were the bigger and better prospects? It's interesting to see your infatuation about Sene, when he wasn't even one of the top 5 guys talked about in this draft, when it came to big men. Those guys were Bargnani ( who is really more of a SF ), Tyus Thomas ( who is also more of a SF ), Aldridge, O'Bryant, and Shelden. Sene didn't even come on the radar, until people saw video clips of him blocking shots and looking good against vastly inferior competition. SW isn't costing us Marvin or Smith. SW is solidifying the interior defense of this team, when he's in the game. Marvin and Smooth will have plenty of opportunity to do their thing on the court. But Shelden is essentially our defensive insurance policy, if Marvin or Smoove can't defend PFs down low. As Shelden becomes a better player, he may even win out at PF, forcing Marvin or Smoove to the bench. But if Smoove and Marvin up their games, they'll not only get the PT, but they'll keep Shelden on the bench. Quote: Taking a more talented player at a different position, doesn't address what was really wrong with this team last year. MW wasn't/isn't more talented than Paul, yet you insist that we take the most talented player then. What happened? BTW, name the humber of times the Hawks have had a 5th or higher draft pick. A 5th pick can be franchise changing. You don't pick a BU quality role palyer with it EVER! I didn't insist that we take Paul over Marvin. Most of us wouldn't have been mad at all if we chose Paul. Paul would've easily been the PG here for 10 years. Personally, I was on the Bogut bandwagon because I knew we needed a big man with some skills that we could possibly play at center. But I also wasn't mad at the Marvin choice, because I know that he's going to be a very nice player in this league. SENE, on the other hand, is a total crap shoot. NBAdraft.net compares him to Dikembe, but Dikembe was a COMPLETE player, not just a one-dimensional shot blocking wonder. Dikembe could defend, score down on the block, and even find the open man when double teamed. The ONLY thing that Sene has shown, is that he's athletic and that he can block shots. PERIOD. As far as the #5 pick in the draft being franchise changing, you're exactly right on that. But as a team, you have to take the guy that will help your team the most, not a guy who is the sexy pick. That's why people criticize us so much about skipping on Chris Paul. But those same people know better to not call Marvin Williams a bust, with all of the skills he has as a b-ball player. So now that we take the safe pick in Shelden, a guy that will help us the most THIS YEAR, there's a huge problem with that logic? LOL. Quote: It would be like the Detroit Lions taking ANOTHER receiver to boost their offense, when their real problem lies on the defensive side of the football. Why not get immediate, better defensive help in FAcy for less "currency" like Atlanta did on the D-line? LOL . . see, you're not telling the entire story again. And I'm assuming that you're talking about John Abraham. Abraham had pretty much burned his bridge with the Jets, and that organization just wanted to get rid of him. So of course you make a deal for him and bring him in. But let's go back to the Hawks for a second. As a fan of this team, you know that this isn't necessarily a hot spot for free agents to come here. Just about every guy we get to come here, we have to OVERPAY for their services. We did it to bring in JJ and we did it to bring in Speedy. And even when we do overpay, guys still bypass this organization. So if you have a chance to get a defensive player via the draft, and defense is your MAIN problem, you pretty much have to go that route and not worry about what anybody else says. Quote: Shelden will play the 4, with getting spot minutes at the 5, depending on who we're playing. Smoove, Marvin, and Childress will ALL play 30 minutes a game, along with JJ and possibly Speedy. Everybody else on this team is an interchangeable part around these guys. If Childress plays 30 MPG I'll give you $5 bucks. If he doesn't you give me $5. Deal? That's a deal. Walter, you need to get your mind out of guys playing certain positions ONLY. Childress is going to play 2 positions on this team. So will Marvin. So will Smoove. If we're going to put our best team on the floor, the minutes will be there for those guys. And just because Shelden might start, doesn't mean that he'll play 30 minutes a game. In fact, I'd be shocked if he did play that much. The guy I'm looking at, is ZaZa. With Lorenzen and Shelden now in the mix, his time could drop considerably. Even if Childress doesn't play 30 minutes a game, the thing that matters is how efficient he is when he does play. If Chill does get 30 MPG, that probably means that this team is winning and that JJ isn't forced to play 38 - 40 minutes a game. I'd love to see JJ's minutes get down to around the 33 - 35 mark, with him being much fresher down the stretch of games. Quote: Shelden may start, but may only see 25 minutes a game. The game situation will dictate who will be in at PF, and who won't. And that is enough of a snub insult to send JS or MW looking for a new team with a starting opportunity. No sir, it isn't. It's not going to be Shelden's play that eventually sends one of these guys elsewhere. It's going to be their OWN play that creates a buzz about them, and send them elsewhere. If Smoove plays great this season, people will come after him left and right next summer. With Harrington gone, the Hawks are in a good situation to match any offer to the guy, that's not a MAX deal. And keep this in mind Walter. Only Hawks fans have a high amount of respect for Smoove. If this team is still mediocre, his respect level will go up, but it's not like this guy is going to command a MAX deal. We can easily afford Smoove, if the best deal he can get is a 5 year - 45 million deal. You saw what happened to Harrington during the offseason. He was looking for big money, and didn't get it. He didn't get it because there are a glut of good SFs in this league. NEne got his 10 million, because people are so desperate for center-like talent. But this is also a scenario that we don't even have to worry about for 2 years. And Marvin is guaranteed to be a Hawk for at least another 3 years.

Walter, post that website so I can take a look at it. But if Sene is only getting 10 - 15 minutes a game, something is SERIOUSLY WRONG. Why bench a shot blocker that can change the game like that? You find ways for a guy like that to be on the court, regardless of what marginal player you have playing in front of him. Sene is a lot closer to Mutumbo than Dalembert? Really? Mutumbo did have some offensive game to go along with his defense. Does Sens possess some offensive game to go along with his "great" defense? Can Sene score 10 points on the NBA level on any given night? 2 summers ago, people on this board were all for giving Dalembert a HUGE contract just because he had a bad need at center. That would've been the biggest mistake the Hawks would've made, since trading Steve Smith for JR Rider. The vast majority of big men who are prospects in this league, never reach their potential. And yet, teams still take a chance on them, because the league is so starved for quality big men. Especially defensive ones. I mean, who is/was the better prospect? Sene or the lanky athletic shot blocker formerly named Keon Clark? But I guess that's another bad comparison. Yet, you want to compare Sene to one of the game's all time defensive big men in Dik? LOL.

With Shelden, the question is going to be . . . how BIG does he play? Does he play like a 6 - 5 PF that tries too hard? Does he play like a 6 - 8 PF? Does he play like a 6 - 11 PF? We won't know the answer to that until the season starts. Two contrasts in looking at Shelden against other PFs. - He pretty much handled LaMarcus Aldridge when Duke played Texas last year. Mind you that LaMarcus is 3 inches taller than Shelden. But the knock on LaMarcus is that he plays weak. He's 6 - 11, but plays more like he's 6 - 6 at times. That's the main reason why the kid wasn't the consensus #1 pick. - On the flip side, Shelden had MAJOR PROBLEMS when trying to contain Marco Killingsworth of Indiana. Killingsworth took Shelden inside and outside and used his quickness very effectively. He was literally unstoppable. Now granted, Marco couldn't do anything with Shelden either and Duke did win the game. But Killingsworth wasn't scared at all of Shelden, and took it right to him. By the way, Marco is a shade under 6 - 7. And that's the main reason why Marco wasn't a lottery pick. That, and his defense is HORRIBLE. But he plays like he's 6 - 10 . . when his shot is falling.

LOL @ Walter . . and his Sene fantasies. Sene may very well block .2 more shots than Shelden. But can he defend in the post better than Shelden? That's the ultimate factor in how effective each guy is. It's been very well documented on this board about Josh Smith's defensive prowess. Just because he blocks a lot of shots, doesn't make him a great defender. In fact, when it comes to guarding his man one on one, Josh is a very average defender. But he's a great weakside defender. Charles Oakley never blocked many shots. But he sure could lock you down on the block and keep you under your average. If Sene is as good as Walter believes, then he should be the undisputed starter in Seattle, playing 28 - 32 minutes a game. If he's that good of a defender, you don't suppress that. LOL @ Dalembert. A PERFECT example of a guy who can block shots, but is weak defensively man to man, and doesn't dominate the boards. That's why Philly fans are already disgusted at him.

Good post Diesel, but you forgot one thing that all of those teams possessed. The ability to get STOPS when you need them the most. Phoenix is a great example of a team that controls tempo. Their tempo is 100 mph. But when it's all said and done, they can never get that key stop at the end of a game to get it done. They either have to hope someone misses a wide open jumper or they either have to be flawless on the offensive end. Dallas got the NBA Finals off the simple fact that they were able to get key stops at the end of games. That's a trait that they never possessed before last season. San Antonio is a basketball machine on both ends of the floor. They can play the slow tempo, up tempo, grind it out, and still be able to stop you at the end of games. If it wasn't for Manu and his mind-boggling foul on Dirk, we may very well be talking about a SA vs MIA series in the Finals. That would've been interesting. I'll have to disagree with your assessment about the Nuggets, because they've proven time and again that they not only go ice cold on offense at the worst times, but they also have MAJOR lapses on the defensive end that KILLS that team. Having said that, Melo is positioning himself to be a serious MVP candidate this season. But the rest of the squad has to be able to play good enough team defense to make a major run in the playoffs. And that brings us to the Hawks. We need to establish what kind of team we're going to be from the jump. Are we going to be an efficient offensive team that spreads the ball around to everybody . . like last year. Or are we going to try to be a pressure defensive team that causes turnovers and forces a lot of bad shots in the half court set? Personally, I don't know if we have the personnel to be a great defensive team. We'll be much better than we were last year. But much better than last year may only still mean that we're the 16th best defensive team in the NBA. It's kind of like my Cincinnati Bengals and defending the run. WE can say all we want that we're going to stop the run. But if you have poor tacklers up front, you're not going to be successful. So your best bet on defense, is to do what you do best . . and that's force turnovers via fumbles and INTs. Playing the passing lanes and not giving up a ton of easy shots, is the best the Hawks can do at this time on defense. I don't see Smoove or Marvin or Childress becoming lockdown type defenders anytime soon. And while Speedy is an upgrade defensively at the point, it's not like he's going to be a Mookie Blaylock defender for this team either. But one of the major differences between Lue and Speedy, is that Lue hardly ever put himself in position to get a steal, a defensive rebound, or even a deflection. With Speedy at the point, that'll be the first thing that will stand out about him. As much as people talk about Shelden, he may be the x-factor for this team winning 35 games . . or 48 games.

45 Hawks games on SportsSouth . . hmmmmmmmm. As much as I like the NBA League Pass, this gives me a little incentive not to take it this year. Nahhhh . . I'm too much of a hoops junkie to give up League Pass. League Pass is like visual crack.

LOL @ Walter. No it isn't. And why are people all up in arms about Marvin or Smoove coming off the bench? When it is all said and done, both guys will get 30 minutes a game, and both guys could arguably be in the game during crunch time, depending on who we're playing and what the situation is in the game. And you keep harping on the fact that Shelden was the #5 pick, like he's supposed to be the savior of the franchise or something. The Hawks needed interior talent . . . PERIOD. So they took what they thought was the best interior player on the board, in Shelden. Taking a more talented player at a different position, doesn't address what was really wrong with this team last year. It would be like the Detroit Lions taking ANOTHER receiver to boost their offense, when their real problem lies on the defensive side of the football. Shelden will play the 4, with getting spot minutes at the 5, depending on who we're playing. Smoove, Marvin, and Childress will ALL play 30 minutes a game, along with JJ and possibly Speedy. Everybody else on this team is an interchangeable part around these guys. Shelden may start, but may only see 25 minutes a game. The game situation will dictate who will be in at PF, and who won't. As for the rest of you, this will probably be the starting lineup, if Bernie is insisting that Shelden will start at PF. C - ZaZa PF - Shelden F - Smoove G - JJ G - Claxton First off the bench . . Marvin and Childress . . . with Shelden and JJ or Claxton or Smoove getting an early breather. There's NOTHING wrong with that, if those guys are still going to get their minutes. Play JJ at the point in short stretches, to possibly put this lineup in. G - JJ G - Childress F - Marvin F - Smoove F - Shelden That's a Detroit Piston like lineup. And you WILL see that group on the floor together during each game at some point. It may be for 3 - 4 minute stretches, and maybe no more than 8 - 10 minutes a game, but you'll see it. There is NOTHING wrong in bringing talented guys off the bench, if they're going to get their minutes anyway. Ask Jerry Stackhouse, Corey Magettee, and Ben Gordon.

Walter, the problem with your Shelden's D = Al's O, is that you don't take into account the acutal numbers that each guy contributes/gives up on the other end. Al may score 23 in a game, but would routinely give up 21 - 25 points on the other end. Shelden may score 12 on offense, but may only give up 15 on the other end. In the end, the 10 points difference that Shelden would potentially give up, far outweighs Al's scoring output if he is also giving up the same amount of points. What you're trying to correlate, is that Al's offense is just as good as Shelden's defense. But if you can hold your opponent under his average, that's a better situation . . than if you let your opponent get his average, but you match his output on the offensive end. For example. Let's say the Hawks are playing last year's Phoenix Suns squad. Al guarding Diaw C - T. Thomas = 14 pts PF - Diaw = 23 pts F - Marion = 19 pts G - Bell = 15 pts G - Nash = 19 pts Bench = 20 points Total = 110 points ************************************* Shelden guarding Diaw C - T. Thomas = 14 pts PF - Diaw = 15 pts F - Marion = 19 pts G - Bell = 15 pts G - Nash = 19 pts Bench = 20 pts Total = 102 pts ********************************** This is the entire premise of having Shelden here. IF . . and that's a big IF he's much better than Al defensively, that may translate into the Hawks getting more stops at the 4 spot, and with people driving the lane. In my example, I only took into account Shelden possibly holding Diaw to around 15 points. With Al gone, other people will make up for his offense. Shelden alone doesn't have to match Al's output, or even come close to it for that matter. All he has to do is provide timely points, but defend with tenacity. Most people on this board believe that Marvin and Smoove can improve their offensive outputs. And because the other players on this team are basically offensive oriented players, many of us don't think this offense will miss a beat with Al gone. In this scenario, we probably still wouldn't beat the Suns if we gave up 102 points. But we'd have a better chance at winning, than the possible 110 we'd give up with Al in the lineup. Bottom line . . . we can't win games if we don't play defense. So by adding a defensive player, it makes the team better overall. It's almost the same reason why Dallas preferred to start Diop, instead of Dampier, who was the better offensive player. With Diop, you're more likely to get stops, while the other guys picked up the offensive slack. With Dampier, you may lose things defensively, thus, counteracting what the others, including Dampier, are doing on offense.

Clarksville, TN . . about 40 minutes northwest of Nashville, and right next to Ft. Campbell, KY., which is the home of the 101st Airborne Division of the Army. I try to make it to the "A" about 5 - 10 times a year, and take in about 4 - 7 Hawks games live at Philips Arena.

LOL . . . these words/writing style look familiar. I think I've seen them before on the Hawks ESPN board.

One of the things that always amuses me about the "we have too many SF" topics, is that mostly everyone thinks that one of these guys is going to become a star player, while the other guy who is left out, will be relegated to the bench, thus, not wanting to be here. Well here's a thought that I haven't seen proposed yet. What if NONE of these guys become star players? What then? Right now, the Hawks have the luxury of playing a multitude of guys in different positions, mainly because these players have yet proven that they can be a star quality type player. (( And no . . averaging 17 ppg - 7 rebs - and 4 assists doesn't make you a star player . . for you Smoove fans )) With Harrington gone, one of these guys will get a chance to prove if they can be a future star. But what if it doesn't happen? What if Smoove's upside is just a 13 ppg . . 7 rpg . . 3 apg player that shoots 44% FG . . but could play the 3 and the 4? What if Marvin's upside is just a 14 ppg . . 6 rpg player that shoots 45% FG . . but could play the 3 and the 4? And what if the upside of Childress is just what it is right now . . a guy that can get you 11 ppg and 5 rpg, and shoot in the low 50% FG . . but could play the 2 and the 3? If this is the case, then you could make a case that the Hawks should keep ALL THREE GUYS, in order to have depth on the team with guys who can play the 2, the 3, and the 4 collectively. This would especially be the case if the Hawks are a playoff team. And if these guys aren't putting up star numbers, the demand for them won't be great either. If the Hawks could sign both Smith and Childress in 2008, for 4 years at 26 - 28 million . . would you do it? Then when Marvin's RFA year comes up in 2010, would it be so terrible if he got the same type of contract, if he hasn't proven that he can be a star player, but is a solid player? By then, ZaZa will probably be gone, along with Lue, Wright, and possibly Salim. Maybe they resign ZaZa if the big man problem still exists. But guys like Wright, Lue, Salim, and Solomon Jones would definitely be gone. The core then would be: - JJ ( who would be in his last year and looking for an extension . . and hopefully a superstar by then ) - Shelden ( who'd still have a few years left on his deal and hopefully entrenched as a solid PF ) - Childress - Smith - Speedy ( who'd also be in the last year of his deal . . at age 32 ) - and Marvin - and maybe one or two of the young draft picks from 2007 or 2008. People who are so quick to trade one or two of our SF's off, just for the sake of creating more playing time for the ones who remain, may be throwing out the baby with the bathwater. You need a solid bench in this league to win. But if you have a solid rotation of 9 - 10 players, that can be just as good. Isn't that the formula that the Memphis Grizzlies have lived by for the past 3 years? If we can't have 2 - 3 star players on this team, along with a decent bench . . I'd rather have the one star in JJ, with 8 good players complimenting each other. Most importantly, we'd have a VETERAN team here that knows each other's games inside and out.

LOL @ this thread. Straight comedy. I guess when Sene gets his 2.5 blocks per 48 minute ratio, but only seeing 8 minutes a game in garbage time, that Walter will declare himself the "winner". I'll make a bet with you Walter. I bet that Solomon Jones, who was a very good shot blocker in the Big East, will have more blocks per minute/per 48 minutes, etc, than Sene. Walter reminds me of one of my old girlfriends . . who likes to argue about points that she knows that she's dead wrong on, just for the sake of arguing.

Hot's team: PG:C.Billups/J.Kidd SG:Ray Allen/R.Hamilton/Bowen SF:Lamar Odom/Ron Artest PF:Brand/D.Howard/Webber C:Duncan/Camby What makes you think that team would function any better than the current USA team? Your PGs can play defense, but once again, individual defense is less important than overall team defense in INTL play. And Kidd's shooting would kill us, seeing that he probably wouldn't be able to get to the hole against the zone defenses. Ray Allen would definitely help as a shooter, but for him to be at his maximum effectiveness, he'd have to get 10 + shots a game, so that he could possibly knock down 4 - 5 threes. Lamar is a good choice because he can be a point forward. But also remember that he was on that Olympic squad. His problem is that he couldn't hit a 15 foot jumper to save his life. And he couldn't defend the 4's in INTL play. Brand I like. He shoud've gotten more time today. Duncan I like as well. But he can't be the focal point of the offense, like Larry Brown was trying to make him. As far as your bench goes, Rip is nice, but he's not a 20+ feet and out shooter. He's a mid-range guy. He would be a nice addition though. Webber? Why? Because he can pass? But the guy can barely move. He'd get killed defensively. Artest . . perfect pick for this team, although most of America would hate it. D. Howard I would keep as well. He's going to improve, and you're going to need some bulk in the middle. Camby I don't know about. Remember, this is INTL ball, not NBA ball. He's going to get dominated down low against these big men. And if you need a defensive stopper, I'd still take Battier over Bowen. Battier was excellent in this tournament on both ends of the floor.

Hot, another thing you need to realize about INTL play, is that these teams are highly efficient on offense, which makes them a tougher out. Their defense is average at best. It's almost like playing against the Phoenix Suns every night. Phoenix doesn't play good defense, but they're so efficient on offense, that it covers up their deficiencies. I can tell that you haven't watched many of these games the US team has played in the tournament. This morning, the US shot 50%. Greece shot a ridiculous 63%. You know what that looks like? That looks like some of the games the Hawks played last year, in which we were very good offensively, but our defense made the other team look like a juggernaut. A guy like Kidd isn't going to have the same effect in INTL play, as he would in the NBA. That's one of the reasons why Bowen was left off of this team. Bowen is a great man to man defensive player. But even he would've gotten eaten up in the pick and rolls that Greece were running this morning. He wouldn't have been able to handle their big men down low, once he switched on the pick and roll. Even Battier had trouble defending it. This team is wired one way on defense. To play man to man, and then turn up the pressure to turn people over. They didn't play ANY zone, even though Greece routinely shoots in the low 30s from 3. ( Although this morning, they were red hot from 3 ). You can protect guys like Cassell and other weak defensive players, if you play zone. On the offensive end, a guy like Cassell would've been a killer and much more efficient than a guy like Wade. When you talk about Billups, he's known to be a very streaky shooter. And his man to man defense isn't going to necessarily deter some of these teams that have good ball handlers at guard. The Greece game was won this morning, because their big men made every play you can possibly imagine. - they hit the 3 - they executed perfectly on the pick and roll - they finished at the rim almost every time Coack K should've made the adjustment to play some zone, even if we don't play it well. Greece, however, were mixing their defenses up, according to the personnel we had in the game.

Or then again, just look at what George Mason did in the NCAA tourney last year. On paper, that team shouldn't have made it out of the 2nd round. But their style of play, and the fact that about 6 of those guys were seniors and knew each other inside and out, enabled them to beat just about everybody, including the supposed #1 team in the land, UCONN . . who sent 5 players off of that squad to the NBA. The GM big men could not only shoot, they could take people off the dribble. And their guards didn't get rattled when pressured. If everybody played within themselves, they were tough to beat. Let you tell it @ Hot . . . no mid-major team should ever beat a major college in football or basketball. Sometimes, styles can overcome talent.