TheNorthCydeRises

I had written another "novel" of a post disputing Walter, but I guess that one got erased. Oh well.

Quote: Quote: There's no ONE person that we can reasonably obtain, that will make us better. Thats because they are taken. LOL . . they're taken and they were never reasonably available. As a Cincinnati Bengals fan, I know all to well how this plays out, when people think you're a horrible team and a horrible franchise. You're not going to get those impact players that you really need to get you to that next level. So you have to develop the talent you have now, and hope the lesser type free agents you bring in can collectively help the team. That's how the Bengals went from a 2 - 14 team 4 years ago, to a playoff contender now. They stuck with their young talent and PLAYED them. And they brought in veterans who weren't necessarily star players, but were good enough to make the overall product better. Guys like Chad Johnson, Rudi Johnson, and T.J. Houshmanzedah weren't starters right out of the gate. But over time, management gave them a fair shot to win starting spots. And all 3 took full advantage of them. Then they bring in 2nd/3rd tier free agents like a Tory James ( Raiders ), a John Thorton ( Titans ) and a Deltha O'Neal ( Broncos ) to help the team futher. And in the meantime, they cut their losses with guys like Corey Dillon ( the "star" of the franchise ) and Peter Warrick. Now back to the Hawks . . A guy like Ben Wallace was never going to come here. Not when the alternative was to go to Chicago. The only way a Mike James comes here is if we grossly overpay for him. The same goes for Sam Cassell. We didn't have a legit shot to get any of those guys. That's why you bring in a Speedy Claxton. That's why you bring in a Lorenzen Wright. And that's why you let Harrington go, so that the kids we do have now, can develop further. If a guy like Josh Smith or Josh Childress doesn't show improvement from year 2 to year 3 even when they get major minutes, then we may want to rethink about keeping those guys. But they at least deserve a shot to show everybody that they can become very good starting players/6th man types in this league

LOL @ all of these magic bullet theories. Now the answer to our problems was Bargnani? LOL . . come on now. It's a well known fact that althougn Bargnani has the height to play center, he'd be more of a combination of a young Dirk Nowitski ( when he wasn't averaging 20 ppg ) and a Nenad Kristic ( who isn't a better defender than ZaZa by the way . . . just to comment on those top 4 teams in the east that don't necessarily have a good defensive center ) Everyone knows what we need. The problem is that everybody's solution is a moot point because the type of IMPACT players we need at those positions just aren't out there. LOL @ trading for Bargnani. Who do we trade? Because you're not going to get away with trading Josh Childress for him. And the Raptors probably wouldn't want to take on Al's salary to play him there, seeing how they destroyed him in the post last year whenever we played the Raptors. Everybody has these great ideas, but they don't necessarily make us a better team. There's no ONE person that we can reasonably obtain, that will make us better. So it's important to bring in a COLLECTION of guys who, if added to the current team, can make us better. I said it two weeks ago . . there's no sense in making a trade to bring in players, just for the sake of doing something. I personally wouldn't have had any problem with letting Al walk for absolutely nothing. To get a 1st round pick out of this, is just an added bonus. I'll say this until the season starts . . Do Hawks fans truly trust the kids? If not, we need to start trading them right now. If so, get behind them UNCONDITIONALLY and see exactly what they can do.

And as I told Walter . . where are we going to get this center that can play defense? Most of the centers in this league are crap. That was part of the reason for taking Shelden in the first place . . to play him some at the 5, and see if he can slow down the lay-up drill people ran against us.

And Walter . . we added the best defensive player in college to our squad. Plus we added another athletic shot blocker with our 2nd round pick. Plus we obtained a decent veteran PG. Plus we obtained a PF/C who knows how to play the game. But I forgot . . what we've done is CRAP, compared to everybody else. LOL @ that. Portland sold their entire team, and is doing the EXACT SAME THING that BK did with the Hawks back in 2003 - 04. But when he did it, it was a DUMB MOVE by us. LOL . . and where is that "dominant center"? Aldridge? You mean the same guy that Shelden MAN-HANDLED when Duke ran right over Texas last season. Even Shelden called him "soft". And look at Aldridge now? He's already hurt. See, this is what I'm talking about. Everybody wants to criticize every move we make, but don't have a viable alternative that would make this team overall a better one. Add a guard in the draft, we lose out on a banger inside. Add a big man, and at least if he pans out, we already have competent guards in place here. As far as Shelden "spelling" guys, that's where you and I differ about his role. Just because you're the #5 pick in the draft, doesn't mean you're destined to become a star player. There are plenty of top 10 lottery picks throughout this league that start out as bench players. Eventually, they may develop into a starter, or a capable 6th man. But I forget, the "plan" was to play Roy or Foye at the point. Or keep JJ at the point. Then, when the lightning quick PGs around the league expose Roy and Foye on the defensive end, everybody would be complaining, because they're really 2-guards instead of PGs. That's why people ripped us for JJ playing the point last year.

Quote: Quote: It's time for Hawks FANS to choose a side and stick with it. So we can't agree with some moves and disagree with others? We have to be on one side or the other? So in order to be Hawks fans we have to be like KB? Sounds like you have appointed yourself as the Hawksquawk thought police. If you don't like what I say then go ahead and write me a ticket. I'll see you in court. LOL @ Ex. We can all agree or disagree with the different moves that "supposedly" have improved our team. But you have to remember that for every action, there is also a reaction. But unlike real physics, that reaction isn't necessarily an equal one in the NBA. If you bring in a guy like a Troy Murphy or a Chris Mihm, you limit someone else that we already have here that may develop into a better player than those guys. Maybe ZaZa can develop to be better than those guys. Look at the jump he made last year, when he actually got quality minutes. It's definitely not out of the question that he can be better than Mihm. That was the one of the points for letting Al go in the first place . . to make room for a more talented and skilled guy like Marvin Williams or Josh Smith to see if they can be on Al's level or beyond. It's almost the same situation Al was in his first years in Indiana. Yes, he got the playing time, but it was always on a limited basis. The same goes for Johnathan Bender. The Pacers had better players in front of those guys, so it hindered their development into "star" players. When Al got his minutes here, he blossomed into a quality starter. At some point, we have to give Marvin and Smoove the same opportunity, without bringing in a ton of guys to "improve" the team . . if they even do it at all. And if it means that our ascent to the playoffs is delayed one year, then so be it. As for the people still crying about the Chris Paul vs Marvin Williams issue . . . get over it already. Nothing we say or do is going to change the fact that Marvin is here and Chris is there. It's like beating yourself up for not talking to a woman that you liked, but you never had the courage to approach her . . or you were looking at her, and other women at the same time. So we might as well give Marvin the same shot Chris had in NOK, and see what he can truly do. Marvin hasn't even had a chance to prove his critics wrong, yet, people criticize the Hawks unrelentlessly for not taking Paul. That's BS in my opinion. As a bench player, Marvin was actually pretty good last year. The same goes for Shelden Williams. Let's see what Shelden can do in a REAL NBA game, before we start calling him a bust. Most of the "fans" on this board rotinely say that either Smoove or Marvin will become stars. Well, you can't become a "star" if you don't get "star minutes". And if we keep bringing so-called quality guys in, they can't get those "star minutes". At some point, we have to just roll with what we got, be content with it, and see what happens. All of the whining and crying about what we "should have done", is moot at this point. See what the kids can do this year. If they can get it done, we're set for the future. If not, then we have guys that we can trade to bring in quality players.

Quote: Quote: ...in this league, and even from IND, that wouldn't have helped this team next year and beyond... certainly, cap space presents some trade flexibility, but it takes space + current assets to = talent upgrade, vis-a-vis, playoff opportunity. I'm not mad, but I *am* very disappointed. There is not one acquisition this off-season that stands out as a grade-A move for a proven asset. Claxton isn't. SWilliams isn't. And the draft pick we're getting, won't even be a person for awhile... and as-if this team needs to get any younger? I've stood by BK, and continue to trust his judgment more than maybe I ought. But the empirical evidence suggests that any progress this team makes in 06-07 is going to come almost completely from the ability of JJ, Smoove, and Marvelous to take their games to the next level... and certainly, we're all rooting for that to happen. But I guess I just want BK to be "man enough" to admit that there *are* players he could have acquired that are *not* simply "bad contracts," and further to admit that *either* he miscalculated the market or that he has had parameters placed upon his work such that he wasn't able to do what he would have liked to have done. Absolutely the same way I feel. We really needed a veteran "dirty work" blue collar kind of guy. As well, some extra leadership on the team would have been nice as well. Not gonna quit being a fan of the Hawks, just disappointing after all the wait until the offseason when we trade Al talk. GO HAWKS!!! The ONLY guy out there left in free agency like that . . is BONZI WELLS. But what do we do if we bring Bonzi in? He's better than Smoove and Chill and Marvin. So bringing him off the bench may cause major problems. But if you start him, you limit the development of Smoove, Marvin, and Chill even more. Lineup with Bonzi: PG - Speedy G - Bonzi G/F - JJ F - Marvin or Smoove C - ZaZa Everybody thinks they have a "magic bullet" to our solution here. We probably need to do just like Chicago did the past 2 years, and just TRUST THE KIDS. THEN . . if we become a playoff team, we'll have tradeable assets to improve the squad. Until then, give the kids a chance to either become big time players . . mediocre players . . or guys who will always be bench/role players. But we won't know if we keep bringing people in.

Quote: ...and like many have been for too long. In addition to there being no "grade A" moves this offseason there were some god awful ones. The two that come to mind are the SW pick over Roy, Foye, or even Gay at 5 and the Indy PUNT rebuilding deal. Every single move was directed towards the mediocrity and all but the Indy pick for the now. We needed a young talent at the center position to grow with the team and we needed legit, quality help. We had Al, a redundand Childress or even JS or MW, to trade, massive cap space, a #5 pick and we essentially tread water. If I'm a young hawk I can't wait to get off this team. There's too little PT or opportunity at my prefered position, too many loses, and no direction towards title contention. Anyhow, just shameful to go through this offseason and not improve our title contention potential. None of these moves put us any closer to a title. Not one. Just shameful. W LOL @ Walter. Always the pessimist. The ONLY grade "A" move made by ANY TEAM this summer, was made by the Bulls when they acquired Ben Wallace and got rid of Tyson Chandler's contract to bring in PJ Brown. Other than that, there's not a single team in the league that made some "great move" in the offseason. And people are still complaining about the Shelden pick at #5? Please. Adding Roy or Foye to this team would've been counterproductive. People are so certain that Roy or Foye can play the point. But what if they can't? What do we do then? Do we STILL go out and get Speedy, causing a backlog of guards on this team? As has been said on this board countless numbers of times . . picking Foye or Roy would NOT HAVE HELPED THE INTERIOR DEFENSE OF THIS TEAM. And that is our main problem. Not the overall talent on this team. And if we didn't have a chance to snag Ben Wallace, who in the heck is going to even spell guys like ZaZa, Marvin, and Smoove when they play the 4? Oh but of course, we could've traded down, got Shelden, and picked up some other guard who isn't even as talented as Tyronn Lue. I love how all of the Hawks critics have a problem with just about every move we've made in the past 3 years, but also say that our team has great young talent. If that's the case, we can't be messing up as bad as people seem. You can't blast us one minute, then praise us the next for our talent. People talking out of both sides of their mouths need to stop. LOL @ the notion that any of these young guys can get more PT somewhere else? Like where? Where is Josh Childress going to get 30 minutes a game, even coming off the bench? Where is Smoove going to get 31 minutes of PT ( probably upwards of 35 minutes a game this year )? And NONE of those guys are going to get a chance to be a star player anywhere else but HERE. Right here is their best shot at becoming a player that can put up major numbers. It's time for Hawks FANS to choose a side and stick with it. If you don't think this team is going in the right direction, then stay over there >>>>>>>>>>>> If you think this team is going in the right direction, come here But DON'T WAFFLE BACK AND FORTH, according to what our record is, or what moves we should/shouldn't have made. Hindsight makes everybody look like a genius. Even if we'd made all of the moves that people said that we should've made, we'd STILL have some holes on this team that needed to be filled. Damned if you do . . damned if you don't.

Good points.

Quote: The Hawks may have more potential then Indiana but the Hawks are still very young and that historically does not bode well for a teams playoff chances. That's true. But I truly believe that this team is poised to make a jump much like the 2004 Bulls did. Offensively, I don't see us losing a step with us losing Al. It's going to give other players a chance to step up and make bigger contributions. It looks like Marvin will be up to the task. Smith will at least try to fill that scoring void. Childress ( if he stays aggressive ) will be a solid contributor and could possibly be our 3rd leading scorer. Even a guy like Salim, who will probably have the same role as last year as the hired gun, should also be an improved player. Add that with JJ, and this team is on par with the Pacers. Last year, we were a much better offensive squad than them. Unless Harrington is going to come in, and shoot 48% next year, they won't be much better than a .500 team. I say 33 - 38 wins. The major questionmark in my mind for us, is if this team is better defensively. If we lower the ppg given up to around 97, we can make that jump to be a playoff team. We'll just have to see how well defensively guys like Marvin, Smoove, and even Shelden are against the starters in this league.

That team played some of its best ball with O'Neal and/or Tinsley out. Indy fans themselves have been questioning whether O'Neal can be the undisputed leader of the team. That role used to be Artest's. Indy was the ONLY PLAYOFF TEAM last year, to have a losing record vs the Eastern Conference. That team, ironically, was 20 - 12 vs teams over .500. So ask yourself this. Do you honestly think that the Pacers can play that well against the good teams again? When you look at the Hawks roster, and the Pacers roster, there's NO WAY IN HELL I'd trade all that we have, to get all that they have. Give me our team any day of the week over theirs.

Personally, I think the Pacers are no better than what we are right now. They start out the season 10 - 7 with Artest. Then they win 5 of their next 6 games when the Pacers decide to basically "deactivate" him. Mid-late December they have a 15 - 8 record. They go on to post a 26 - 33 record the rest of the year . . and posted a 24 - 28 record against the Eastern conference. Adding Harrington and "Brotha" Marquis Daniels, but losing Peja, Fred Jones, and Anthony Johnson . . is not an upgrade to that team IMO. They're banking on Granger making a huge contribution to that team next year. If he doesn't, the Pacers are in serious trouble.

Here's what athletic "cheating" is in a nutshell: If you had a chance to date the woman of your dreams for a year . . but at the end of that year . . not only would you lose the girl, but you would have to give up something that you love ( your car, sports, a bad habit that makes you feel good, etc ) . . would you do it? All of these athletes that cheat, are basically saying that they're willing to take on the euphoric feeling they'd have in the short term, even if it means being miserable in the long run.

24/5/5 would be nice. I think he'll be more like 22/4/6 . . with a higher shooting percentage across the board. We can play a small backcourt during times in which the starters from the other team are out of the game. We did that last year with Lue and Salim in the game together at times. Of course, they couldn't defend anybody, but teams had problems controlling them on the offensive end as well. JJ last year deferred a lot to Harrington down the stretch. That shouldn't happen this year. But I don't want him to feel like he has to take every shot down the stretch and force some bad shots either. He made a lot of good plays at the end of games, in which he penetrated into the lane, and kicked it out to a wide open guy. The one good thing about this team, is that we have a lot of guys who feel comfortable with taking a big shot. JJ, Chill, Smoove, Salim, and Lue have no problem taking a big shot. You'll probably see Marvin develop that mentality as well.

LOL @ this thread. I have a good idea of who BBallPrincess is. And it would explain A LOT of why she knows things that the average "hardcore" Hawks fan doesn't. As they used to say back in the 90s. "Don't hate the playa . . hate the game."

LOL @ what's MY plan. That's exactly the point I'm trying to make. (1) it's not my JOB to negotiate potential trades for Al, so what I post on a message board is irrelevant. . . but if you want my opinion, here it is: (2) we're better off KEEPING Harrington for one year, then try to deal him later, than to do some of these deals that people have proposed. But if we do that, we suppress guys like Marvin and Smoove even more. But who knows? Maybe they're ready. Maybe they're not quite. But before we trade Harrington for some awful contract in Murphy . . or some Laker scrubs . . or a bunch of expiring contract players that aren't going to see the floor anyway . . I'd just rather keep Al, trade him for picks, or let him walk altogether. People act like it's the end of the world if we don't get something for Harrington. IF we get something, that's great. IF we don't, then I have the utmost confidence that JJ, Smoove, Mavin, and Chill can get it done THIS SEASON. Either way, I like the way this team is built for next season, even if we do need improvement in other areas. And everybody knows that it's next offseason where you may see some big time talents come available. I think this franchise has already made its commitment to JJ, Smoove, Marvin and possibly Childress. The problem is, the fans haven't made the same commitment. Let's see if these guys can develop into the things that most people on this board believe they can, before bringing in guys who will take playing time away from them, or take their starting spot altogether. People on this board have stated in the past that this team would be better off without Harrington. I say, put your money where your mouth is, and support the kids.

And that's EXACTLY why you're not the GM of an NBA franchise. LOL @ your Memphis trade. Why in the hell would the Griz trade away Warrick? They LOVE Hakim in Memphis. Fans need to realize that whatever trade proposal that they come up with on realgm.com or any other of these sites, isn't necessarily feesible . . even if the numbers work. Most of the trades proposed for Al, doesn't improve this team by leaps and bounds. So it's really no sense in doing some trade for an overrated player or a bunch of scrub players, just for the sake of doing it. We'll do "something". But whatever we do, it's not going to drastically improve this team. The players that we do want ( like Camby ), aren't going anywhere.

LOL @ that article. UN-believable!! And LMAO at that lineup. Why in the hell does the guy think that the Celtics obtained, not one, but TWO PG'S this year? It's obvious that Delonte was NOT the solution in Beantown, yet, he's the next leader of the future Hawks? LMAO !!! And the Kenyon trade? Good Lord. It's like I've been saying for weeks now: (1) people who follow/watch this team have absolutely NO CONFIDENCE that Joe Johnson can become a star or even an elite player in this league (2) they also think that our kids have no shot at improving in the near future. If they did, they'd realize that their potential is more valuable, than any marginal player that we can bring in to possibly replace them.

A lot of us "fans" tend to forget that the Hawks don't necessarily sell out every game either. With that being the case, you just can't expect the organization to go all out, spend all of their allotted cap money, and make the few thousand of us "loyal fans" happy . . while getting killed at the box office. People have to remember that the NBA is a BUSINESS, as well as sports entertainment. It makes no sense to bring in a contract like a Troy Murphy, if it isn't a guarantee that his presence will make us a serious playoff and championship contender. I've always preferred to "roll with the kids", and see what they can do. That worked for Chicago. It was only when they got to be a playoff team, that the organization actively went out and tried to make the team better by adding expensive free agents.

Ex . . while I'll agree that Howard is a tad bit overhyped RIGHT NOW, you need to look at what you're saying. To say that he has to develop a mid range shot or become a better post player to average 20+ ppg, pretty much proves that you haven't watched enough of this kid . . especially since the Francis trade. If Dwight keeps doing what he's doing right now, and NEVER develops a mid range jumper, the kid can EASILY average 20 ppg. Why? Because he'll get more touches, with the departure of Francis, and with him now being the focal point of the offense. Jameer will get him the ball in the right spots, and Dwight will continue to use his athletic ability to get to the rim. One other thing you need to realize. He's going to get to the line A LOT next season. A whole lot. That in itself will help him become that consistent 20 ppg scorer . . perhaps even a 20 - 24 ppg scorer. IF he EVER develops a mid-range game, this league better look out. He'll be better than David Robinson. Right now, I'll compare Dwight to what Amare was after his 2nd season in the league. In Year 3, we saw Amare damn near become an MVP candidate. Don't be shocked if the same happens to Dwight next year, if Orlando gets on a roll.

Quote: If we suck enough to get a top 10 player in 2008 I will shoot myself. This is the mentality we have to change with Hawks fans. We shouldn't be excited because there are guards available in 2008. We are done rebuilding. What in the *uck are we going to do with a HS/College freshman point guard rookie when we are supposed to be EC contenders by then. We are set at point guard. We have 4 point guards all in their 20's. In fact we are set at every position now. All I want to see added to this team are role player specialist...namely Another scorer (ala Jerry Stackhouse type) A defensive specialist (ala Bonzi Wells type) I don't want any more damn rookies, or developmental players. This is our team Speedy/Lue JoJo/Salim Smoove/Childress Marvin/Shelden Zaza/Lo Extended bench: Este, Solomon NBDL Rep: Ivey That's it. We are done..that's the lineup. With the exception of some fine tuning BK's vision is complete. Best post of the week. When I saw the title to this thread, I immeadiately thought the same thing you were thinking. As far as that defensive specialist you want, Ruben Patterson would've been a guy that could fit in well here, seeing that he can defend both the 2 and the 3. I tell you what though. Bonzi Wells would immeadiately send Smoove or Marvin to the bench ( depending on which guy Woodson plays at the 4. ) Bonzi has always been a big time talent. He's just a little crazy like Artest. And his crazyness overshadows his talent at times.

I'm not worried at all about either of these guys leaving. For one, the Hawks own the Bird Rights to each player, so if we wanted to, we can go over the cap and even into Luxury Tax land to keep them . . if we're a playoff team. Second, we don't have to worry about Marvin until the summer of 2010. I'm sure he'll pretty much show what he's about by then. He'll either be a decent starter . . or a superstar type player. Third, the Hawks should be in no hurry to sign Josh Smith to any long term contract. Let the kid show if he can really elevate his game on a consistent basis. If he can, then pay the man. If he can't, he'll be treated like a young Al Harrington, and earn somewhere around 6 - 8 million on his next deal. This core players on this team is pretty much set in stone for at least the next 2 seasons. Let all of this play out, before we decide to start trading people or giving people boatloads of money.

I was talking about Paul Pierce leading the C's to the ECF. JJ's game is similar to Pierce's . . . with the potential to become a Clyde Drexler type player ( without the flash ). You provide adequate interior defense to the Hawks last year, and we easily win 35 - 40 games last year. That's why the league, including your Bulls, better hope that Shelden comes along slowly in his rookie year, and the rest of our bigs don't show any improvement. If they do, we're definitely going to be a factor come April.

Quote: Untouchable is a label that some players get. JJ is not an American Hero like GI JOE... but how untouchable is he? For instance, if Orlando was to offer us: Hill and Howard for Marvin and JJ would we say No? Or is it that deep down in our hearts we all want to see: Howard/Shelden/Smoove/Chillz/Speedy take the court? IF Toronto were offering Chris Bosh/Alvin Williams for JJ would we have to turn them down? Joe isn't an American hero? Tell that to Team USA today. As one poster said on the ESPN board about 2 - 3 weeks ago, people should be calling Joe . . . "CAPTAIN AMERICA" One of those under the radar type superheroes who was never flashy. All he did was kick azz whenever his country needed him. That's Joe in a nutshell. By the way, you rarely see stars in their prime, traded for other stars in their prime. When you look at that, Joe IS untouchable. Call him Captain America . . or call him Elliott Ness. He's untouchable.

I know how good Howard is. And he may very well have more potential than JJ. But I have to question whether Hawk fans know how good JJ is. People keep comparing JJ to Ray Allen. If I were JJ, that'll be a slap in the face, considering that JJ can do a hell of a lot more things than Ray. JJ may be a better shooting version of Paul Pierce, a guy who can do it all. When he had adequate help, he helped the C's get to the ECF.