TheNorthCydeRises

Except that the lineup is not meant to be a defensive one. It's meant to be an offensive one. If Dedmon was able to come back, you could substitute either Baze or Prince, and insert Dedmon at center, and move Collins to PF. Bud has proven that he'll go to that 2 PG lineup at the drop of a dime, in order to get better flow to the offense. The point is that the NBA has turned into a league in which good to great scoring PGs are leading almost all of these playoff level teams. To have two very quick PGs who can get to the rim on just about anybody, would improve this team dramatically.

It's exactly what he did though. If you're going to bottom the team out, any deal made for Dwight had to be one that DIDN'T improve the team, but made it worse. And if you had to take on a bad contract to do it, so be it . . . in his eyes. It's an indication that Schlenk intends on playing the lottery for MULTIPLE years, not just one year. Put it like this . . . if we draft one of the bigs, do you think Plumlee even is in the rotation next season? Especially if we cut a deal to bring back Dedmon?

The Hawks didn't struggle to trade Dwight. They basically dumped him for scraps to make the team bad. That "non All-Star" last year led the Hawks in PER ( 20.8 ) . . Win Share - ( 8.3 ) . . WS/48 ( .181 ) - and was 2nd on the team in Value Over Replacement Player ( VORP ) - 2.7. Dwight more than did his job here last year and was easily a top 3 center in the East last season. What he couldn't control, was how the guards couldn't make simple entry passes in the post to him. Nor could he control the decisions of the coach not to get him more touches in the post during the playoffs, who valued shooting over legit post play and rebounding. Bud's coaching during that playoff series vs Washington last year, was atrocious. Just like it was the previous season, when he couldn't figure out that a tough big like Kris Humphries might have some value, over the better shooting, but much weaker Muscala. In both instances, he bet on Moose . . and lost. Even this season, the lack of post touches by Collins this season should scare everyone. Collins was not only a gifted Pick and Roll player in college, he was very good in the post. The fact that Collins has only received the ball a total of 22 times in the post this season, is one of the biggest travesties of the season. How does a player who was one of the most efficient scorers in college basketball, not get to play to his strengths? So the question now is, can Bud properly develop Collins to his maximum potential? I truly can't say definitely YES to that question. This takes us to the draft. I never said that Sexton was a better draft prospect than Ayton or Doncic. What I do know though, is that if there's any type of player that Bud can develop in his system, it's point guard. I thought he did a real good job with Teague, by turning him into a more aggressive floor leader that could knock down the 3. I hate that Dennis' full development was pretty much wasted this season, because we couldn't have him be "too good" in order to preserve the "tank". But Bud has done a good job with Dennis. I had serious doubts that he could get his shot off without space, when he came into the league. Dennis has worked on his midrange game extensively, and has become a pretty good midrange shooter, even if his long range shooting has tailed off big time since November. So when you look at this draft, I think that Bud could have the most success developing either Sexton, or Trae Young over the big guys. Trae Young As much as Young has struggled in Big 12 play, I think the open floor game of the NBA, along with playing alongside much better players, could help Young's game. People talk about his shooting and shot making, which was definitely eye popping early in the season. But to me, his best attribute is his passing. That dude can pass his ass off. He has Lonzo Ball type vision. He can make anybody he's playing with, into a better player. A Pick and Roll attack of Collins and Young, could be lethal. The big knock on Trae, to me, is his ability to be a leader when he's struggling. It's almost to the point that opposing PGs are "punking" him. And his defense is atrocious. Overall, he has to become physically and mentally tougher. Once Big 12 coaches really challenged their PGs to really pressure Trae defensively on the ball, he somewhat folded up. And Lon Krueger did Trae no favors, because once he gave the ball up, he wasn't moving Trae around in the offense to free him up for open shots. Trae, under better coaching, could be an absolute monster in the NBA. The shooting, court vison and the range on his shot, cannot be overlooked in today's NBA. Collin Sexton Being "punked" is NOT an issue for Collin Sexton. This dude is a DOG, in the fact that he's going to keep coming at you on both ends of the floor. He has a Russell Westbrook mentality, without all of the bad shot selection that Russell takes. Avery Johnson has done a great job in harnessing Collin's aggressiveness. He doesn't let him completely freelance like Kruger has Young doing, but he does give Collin enough freedom in the offense to show off all of his skill set. At 6-3, he's as quick and explosive as any guard in college basketball. It would be VERY INTERESTING to see he and Dennis in a lineup together, running Pick and Roll on either side of the court, much like what James Harden and Chris Paul does in Houston. Now I'm in NO WAY comparing those 2 to Harden and Paul, but the effect on the Hawks offense could be truly dynamic, when you basically have to guard two guys who can break you completely down off the dribble. Bud has shown in his tenure in ATL, that he likes the 2 PG attack at times. So whether Sexton is starting, or coming off the bench, an in-game lineup of . . Schröder - Sexton - Bazemore - Prince - Collins . . would be one of the more interesting lineups, from a speed and attacking standpoint, that the Hawks could throw at people next season. Most important, it would take the ball handling decisions COMPLETELY out of Baze's hands, and turn him more into a spot up shooter . . which he's done pretty well this season. If it's proven that Dennis and Collin couldn't play with each other, we now have the option to flip Dennis for a better fitting player . . . ala what Golden State did with Monta Ellis. At the end of the day, I trust Bud more with the point guards, than I do with the bigs.

The entire purpose of signing Dwight, was to see if his presence would help a team who got MURDERED on the boards in the 2015 - 16 season. Had Horford not got his panties in a bunch, we go into last season with a Horford - Millsap - Howard rotation on the frontline. The decision would've had to been made to either start Millsap at SF, or bring Howard off the bench. In either case, all 3 of those players are playing 30+ minutes a game, and probably finishing the game together ( unless the Hawks are leading a close game, in which Dwight would be pulled ). The acquisition was the correct one to make in the summer of 2016 season. And with Dwight only signed to 3 years, you could see if that lineup could work for a few years, before pulling the trigger and trading him ( or one of the other two ) in year 3. As for Sap being 33 years old, that means nothing in the grand scheme of things. If the goal was to keep the Millsap - Howard frontline together, while the young perimeter kids grow around them, paying those guys isn't the end of the world. Collins ( if drafted ), would've benefited tremendously from both Millsap and Howard, turning him into a much better player than even what he is right now. But that's water under the bridge now. No vets on the team that can teach the young guys how to play. 25 point blowout losses make all of you smile. All it does for me, is make me not want to watch them. Just need to fast forward to lottery night, to see where we pick. Hopefully it's somewhere outside the top 5, so that we can draft one of the guards, preferably Collin Sexton.

Carroll was definitely worth paying the money for. 3 and D wings are coveted in this league. In the Hawks system, he'd be playing much better than he is right now. The issue was that we couldn't pay to keep him here. Ferry failed to give him a long enough contract to secure his Bird Rights, so that we could go over the cap to sign him. Ferry, in his quest for flexibility, actually messed this team up. That's why the team disintegrated so quickly.

Nah, not really. As much as I wanted to see that dude crack the rotation and get meaningful minutes, I've pretty much given up on him. Hopefully, he'll surprise us all, and come back with a jumpshot next season.

Just for kicks and giggles, here are the current Hawks by position, using the same NBA efficiency stat Schröder: 12th Bazemore: 17th Prince: 24th Dedmon: 22nd Plumlee: 31st Delaney: 62nd Taylor: 75th Collins: 20th Muscala: 51st Ilyasova: 34th Belinelli: 41st

Rank by position ( according to NBA efficiency ) http://www.hoopsstats.com/basketball/fantasy/nba/home Normally, when you see these efficiency position rankings, this is what is normally means: 1st: Superstar 2nd - 5th: All Star / Top 20 league player 6th - 10th: Very Good Starter 11th - 15th: Good Starter 16th - 30th: Starter/6th man 31st - 40th: Good bench player 41st - 60th: Rotation bench player/Specialist 60th+: Scrub 2014 - 2015 Hawks Teague - 11th Korver - 15th Carroll - 10th Millsap - 5th Horford - 9th Schröder - 43rd Bazemore - 56th Sefolosha - 42nd Scott - 53rd Antic - 76th Starters rank: 4th Bench rank: 16th

WS/48 by player, in that 2014 - 15 season ( main rotation guys only ) Horford: .179 Millsap: .166 Teague: .166 Carroll: .154 Korver: .148 Sefolosha: .121 Scott: .115 Schröder: .080 Antic: .070 Bazemore: .057

The big thing for Schlenk is this. With these 3 draft picks, he needs to hit a home run with that top lottery pick . . and he needs to hit a couple of doubles with those lower 1st round picks. This means that we need to draft the kind of guy that could start from Day 1 . . and add role players who can come off the bench from Day 1. The quicker they can develop into star and solid players, the better. Right now, NBADraft.net has our picks as: #2 - Jaren Jackson Jr - Michigan St . . . . ( whose NBA comparison is, ironically . . . Shareef Abdur-Rahim . . . so I KNOW the fan base isn't going for that ) . . but that kid is good, and well coached. If Collins is a center in Bud's system, Jaren will be the stretch 4 he'd salivate over. Problem is . . he has Marvin Williams written all over him. He's a highly touted Freshman who isn't the star of his team, but has the talent and athleticism that scouts drool over. #24 - Landry Shamet - Wichita St . . . ( who is a good playmaking and 3 point shooting combo guard . . similar to Dorsey ) #30 - Mortiz Wagner - Michigan . . . ( who is a stretch 5 that can shoot the 3. Think Pero Antic w/o the passing ability ) If those are our picks, the Hawks need ALL 3 of them to be able to contribute from Day 1, as well as Collins progressing, and Bembry and Dorsey stepping up their games to provide shooting and passing off the bench.

That's what it's about with the tank crew too. Memphis' lineup, if they add the right young piece to their current group, will be closer to winning a championship in 1 - 3 years, than the Hawks will be in 5 - 7 years. Because if push came to shove, they can opt to trade either Conley or Gasol for younger, better fitting talent that didn't fit anywhere else. That's how the trade game is played. You mix and match players, until you find the correct fit. Once you do, you roll with that. This is exactly what the Houston Rockets have done. What the tank crew doesn't want to admit, is that 4 years from now, we'll be celebrating this team winning 43 games . . . the same total we won last year . . because it will seem like progress . . . instead of us just getting back to where we were.

And see, that's what people don't understand. They're coming back next year with two borderline All-Star caliber players, plus a top 5 player in this year's draft. IF they choose the right player that enhances the entire team, they could immediately jump to a playoff level squad in an instant. And I think they have the bird rights to Tyreke Evans, who did play very well for them this season. So this is the Grizzlies probable starting lineup next season PG - Conley G - Evans F - Chandler Parsons . . ( or Doncic if they get a top 2 pick ) F - JaMychal Green . . . ( or Bagley, if they get a top 2 pick ) C - Gasol This is a setup similar to what happened in San Antonio. Their "aging" stars could play, but they couldn't get past Utah. PG - Avery Johnson ( 31 ) G - Vinny Del Negro ( 30 ) F - Sean Elliott ( 28 ) . . . injured 1/2 of the year PF - Carl Hererra ( 30 ) C - David Robinson ( 31 ) . . . injured most of the year 6th man - Dominique Wilkins ( 37 ) Robinson and Elliott, the two stars of the team go down, and they were able to add the #1 pick, and future Hall of Famer ( Tim Duncan ) to the squad. All of a sudden, you have the best frontline in the league, with two of the best defensive big men to play the game. They still couldn't beat Utah in year 1. But they ran through everyone in Year 2, and won a title. LOL . . then they had to wait until Shaq and Kobe fell out, to win another one. That's the type of luck you really need, when you talk about winning championships. So tankers, what would be a better path to seeing the Hawks get back to prominence? Bottoming the team out, and hoping we add a draft pick to this lineup next season? PG - Schröder G - Bazemore F - Prince . . ( or Doncic, if we get a top 3 pick ) PF - Collins C - Dedmon . . ( or Bagley/Ayton, if we get a top 3 pick ) 6th man - Dorsey? or this lineup . . . PG - Schröder G - Bazemore F - Prince . . ( or Doncic, if we get a top 3 pick ) PF - Millsap C - Howard . . ( or Bagley/Ayton, if we get a top 3 pick ) 6th man - Collins It's OK to tell the truth on this.

Call Tonya Harding's goon to take out Dennis knee. Not to make light of this too much, because this was easily one of the most (( bleeped )) up moments in sports. And then 20 years later, Tonya Harding is actually celebrated, and has a movie made about her.

Quote from the Indiana game thread: From: Royjr9 in response to benhillboy's comment about tanking 10 HOURS AGO, BENHILLBOY SAID: Silver is a f@$$ moron . With all the league has gotten wrong. And mind you he long ago could have stood up and hammered the 76ers. But choose to do nothing because he’s a stooge for the owners that signs his check. In reality he can’t do shit cause a little under half the league would be disqualified. The only way to REALLY kill tanking at this level, is to give every single non-playoff team EQUAL odds across the board. I mean literally give every team a 7% chance at the 14 lottery spots, and draw every single lottery spot. By doing this, it may INCREASE tanking by the teams near the 8th seed mark in April, that would rather lose and take a shot at the lottery, than make the playoffs and be 1st round cattle slaughter for one of the elite teams. But I'd take that over what you're seeing right now. But think about that. The non-playoff teams still fighting for that 8th seed are: Miami: Currently the 8th seed in the East, but is only 2 games from being the 5th seed. Would they give that up just to get a 7% chance at one of the top guys in the draft? Riley might say YES. But their team Detroit: 1 playoff appearance in the past 8 years, and fighting a declining trend in attendance ( before the Blake Griffin trade ). 3 games behind Miami. The city is starved for something good. Charlotte: Almost out of the mix, seeing that they're 5.5 games back from the 8th spot. They're the type of team that could partially "shut it down" just enough to ensure that they won't make the playoffs, and play the lottery game. But even they wouldn't have to fully "tank" for weeks on end. Denver: Currently the 8th seed in the West, but is only 2.5 games from being the 4th seed. Seeing that they've not made the playoffs in 4 years, there's no way they're purposely losing, just to get a 7% chance to get the top pick. Their fans deserve a playoff series, for the season they've had so far. LA Clippers: Now HERE'S a team with a real dilemma. You're .5 games from the 8th spot. And you're 4 games out from the 4th seed. But you ALSO have the potential to get two "tickets" into the Lottery, if you and Detroit miss the playoffs . . . or ZERO if you and Detroit make the playoffs. You know your team is probably not good enough to beat Houston, Golden State or San Antonio in a 1st round matchup. So do you fight hard to get into the playoffs? Or do you "fight hard" and barely miss the playoffs, guaranteeing yourself at least one lottery ticket? Utah: Currently 2 games out of the 8th spot. They have a decent team with a potential All-Star in the making. But would it benefit them to play the lottery in this season, than to make the playoffs? Or would player development, and the experience of this group, led by Mitchell, benefit them more? The Hawks actually had a decision like this in 2013, when they could've dialed it down and not made the playoffs. They decided to go for it and get that 8th seed. They pushed Indiana to a Game 7. The next season, we win 60 games. I've long said that I would rather see a top level player go to a borderline good team to improve their status, than to waste their early years on a very bad team where they really can't improve the team right away. Think Jayson Tatum on the Sacramento Kings, compared to Tatum on the Celtics. The argument has always been that . . . "Oh, you have to elevate the bad teams with high draft picks when they have bad seasons, so that they can get better players." No you don't. Why should the Hawks get a 25% ( or next year, a 14% chance ) at the #1 pick, when they PURPOSELY got rid of all of their talent and are blatantly trying to lose? If the bad non-playoff teams knew they only had an equal 7% chance at getting ANY lottery pick ( not just the top 3 ), they'll stop all of this foolishness, and truly focus on building rosters that would improve their teams. So just for kicks, I wrote the current 14 teams eligible for a lottery pick on a piece of paper, cut it up, and put their names in a hat. Every name has a 7.14% chance of being chosen. The Clippers, due to the Blake Griffin trade, currently have 2 lottery picks. So they have the highest odds out of everyone at 14.2% I'll draw the last pick first, with the final draw between the last two pieces of paper being who gets the #1 pick. Beside it, I'll write what the current odds today would say gets that pick. GREEN means that their draft position improved by more than 2 positions. RED means that it dropped by more than 2 positions. BLACK means that their draft positions either dropped or rose no more than 2 spots. 14 - LA Clippers . . ( LA Clippers ) 13 - Orlando . . . . . ( Utah ) 12 - Dallas . . . . . . . ( LA Clippers ) 11 - Philadelphia . . . . . . ( Charlotte ) 10 - Sacramento . . ( Philadelphia ) 9 - New York . . . . . ( New York ) 8 - Charlotte . . . . . . ( Chicago ) 7 - Utah . . . . . . . . . . ( Cleveland ) At this point, people would be crying to the heavens because Cleveland is about to get a top 6 pick. Your Atlanta Hawks are still in the mix. The Clippers are going to be able to add a top 6 pick to their already decent group, and get something tangible back from the Blake Griffin trade. I think that's BETTER for the league, than that top 6 pick going to a bad team. Dallas and Sacramento would be the big losers in this scenario. Boo-fuggin-hoo. 6 - LA Clippers . . . . . ( Dallas ) 5 - Phoenix . . . . . . . . ( Atlanta ) 4 - Chicago . . . . . . . . ( Phoenix ) So your top 3 teams left would be . . Atlanta, Memphis, and unbelievably . . . Cleveland. Fans would cry around the league, saying that the rich would get richer. I say . . suck it up. Teams should stop making bad deals with high level playoff teams. Brooklyn started this. Boston flipped it for a great asset. And Cleveland will finish it, by picking in the top 3. 3 - Atlanta . . . . . . . . . ( Memphis ) . . . . . See? We get a top 3 pick. Woo-hoo!! 2 - Cleveland . . . . . . ( Sacramento ) So the #1 pick in the 2018 NBA draft would go to . . . .

No. After re-upping on Millsap, you can't bring back THJ. In fact, after the playoff performances of both THJ and Ilyasova, I wouldn't have brought either of them back. So take Ily off the books too. We'd be better off adding minimum level contracts to see if a collective of guys at 1 - 3 million could duplicate what THJ and Ily could do. Starting lineup, to me, was fine . . as long as people played up to their potential roles PG - Schröder G - Baze F - Prince PF - Millsap C - Howard If we got this year's version of Baze last season, we're probably close to a 50 win team, instead of a 43 win team. Combine that with the improvement of Prince and Dennis, that's a solid group right there that could challenge for a top 4 seed in the East. The hope would be that with another year of playing with each other, that this starting lineup would continue to improve on both offense and defense. With the performance of John Collins in Summer League, you give him a significant role off the bench right away ( a little larger than what he had right now ). You'd also have to throw Bembry and Tyler Dorsey right into the fire, to see if they could help you as rookies. The big thing with the bench, is that we'd have to find a veteran, or a couple of veterans, who could serve as scoring threats. Those guys were out there this summer. - Michael Beasley - Jeff Green - Gerald Green Instead, we opted for a guy like Luke Babbitt. If you wanted a higher quality PG, Raymond Felton was available at the vet minimum as well. So say our bench looks like this PG - Felton / Delaney G - Bembry / Dorsey F - Gerald Green F - Beasley C - Collins / Muscala Of course this doesn't excite people. The tank crew would rather bottom out and suck for 3 - 5 years. I personally like going to games LIVE and watching competitive basketball.

Oh . . . and I have a 3rd team that did it without tanking, while being a middling team without a superstar ( although they haven't officially "done it" yet ) Houston Rockets ( mid 2010s )

Ummm . . . no. 20 teams are currently over the cap. 14 teams are currently over the 115 million threshold. 115 million puts us at 13th - 15th in the league in payroll. Salary cap for this season was 99 million . . . so it's 16 million over the cap for this season, not 26 million. Hmmm . . the Hawks lost money last year, despite only having a payroll of 95 million. And you ask . . "so why pay 26 million ( really 16 million ) over the cap when the team lost money". So here's a question. Should the Hawks wait until they're good, or turning a profit, to spend money? What's the use of being under the cap, if you're not going to spend the money? Or spend the money on All-Star caliber players?

It does? http://hoopshype.com/salaries/

Of the little that I saw of that game last night, that's one of the plays I saw. One of the all time great "tank" plays. By the way, while people keep talking crap about Lonzo Ball, he's shot lights out from 3 in his last 13 games, shooting almost 42% from 3.

They were a middling team. The Hawks had assets too when they were a "middling team". Let's not act like Jerry Stackhouse's star was brighter than Joe Johnson's or even Josh Smith's. Stackhouse, when he averaged 29 ppg, took a whopping 24 shots a game to get those points and shot 40%. Detroit missed the playoffs that year, only winning 32 games. Stack was an inefficient, volume shooting scorer who Detroit knew they had to upgrade, in order to make them better team. Michael Jordan, in his "infinite wisdom", viewed Stack as a talent the Wizards could cultivate, and was willing to part ways with the very good, but non superstar Rip Hamilton. Rip would go on to be that very good SG for years, while Stack wouldn't even last 2 years in Washington. The Pistons managed to survive the loss of Grant Hill by trading him for defensive assets, and trading their inefficient volume shooting SG for a much more steady scorer. Then they added the right pieces from a chemistry standpoint, including the right coach, to elevate them to championship level. Contrast that with the Hawks. During our lean years from 2004 - 2008, this is what we acquired 6th pick - Josh Childress 17th pick - Josh Smith Trade for Joe Johnson ( who was a 10th pick in 2001 ) 2nd pick - Marvin Williams 5th pick - Shelden Williams 3rd pick - Al Horford When it came time to make significant moves to possibly shake up the chemistry of the team, what did we do? Childress - went to Greece Smith -re-signed after rookie contract . . . then let walk Johnson - re-signed to MAX deal . . then traded for expiring contracts + Kyle Korver Marvin - re-signed after rookie contract . . . then traded for Devin Harris ( expiring contract ) Shelden - traded for Mike Bibby Horford - re-signed after rookie contract . . . then he left to sign with Boston So out of the 6 major draft pick assets the Hawks have had during the "tank years", the Hawks re-upped with 4 of them, because "they loved their core". But once they saw that the core couldn't get to that next level, they either let the player walk, or executed a salary dump. The best players the Hawks acquired, were Kyle Korver with a Joe Johnson trade exception, and Mike Bibby in a salary dump by the Kings. To Danny Ferry's credit, the exodus of Johnson expiring contracts + letting Smith walk, did lead to the Hawks signing Paul Millsap and DeMarre Carroll in 2013. But even Ferry messed that up by only giving those guys 2 year contracts and not securing their Bird Rights. So what happens? Carroll - let walk, because they couldn't re-sign both DeMarre and Paul ( had to stay under the salary cap, and couldn't go over it ) Millsap - re-signed to a 3 year deal ( opted out after 2 ) . . . then let walk so that the franchise could tank. To make sure the Hawks weren't good enough, they essentially traded Dwight Howard for an even worse contract in Plumlee. And a role player that they possibly could've used in Belinelli, they had to buy out, out of fear that they might be too good to get a top 3 pick. At least we got something by trading Jeff Teague ( #12 pick - Taurean Prince ) . . . whose development as a player is still TBD.

I already stated what I would do. The fear last summer, was that there's no way the Hawks could sign Millsap for 5 years at the MAX, or close to it. But if he were willing to take a 3 year / 90 million deal like he did with Denver, that's decent enough to re-sign. Also, you keep Howard for one more year. If you bring that guy here, you can't give up on the experiment after Year 1. You at least have to go one more year, before calling it a failure.

Super lucky? Isn't that what the "tank" strategy is? To get "super lucky"? It actually took a lot more GM skill to do what Detroit and Utah did.

Utah ( mid 1980s ) Karl Malone - drafted 13th John Stockton - drafted 16th Didn't win a title, but was a high quality team for years, and went to back to back NBA Finals. Matter of fact, they had a stretch in the 1990s in which they went to 5 out of 7 Western Conference Finals.

Detroit

Detroit ( early 2000s )