TheNorthCydeRises

I don't believe they will. A lot of these NBA GMs fall into the trap of drafting for need, than best player available. And honestly, a lot of them are poor evaluators of talent. I personally think the only reason why we took Collins, is because we decided to give up on our expensive veteran frontcourt ( Millsap and Howard ). The fact that Collins didn't have much range on his shot, and was a supposed defensive liability, were other reasons why he dropped. These GMs are so obsessed with jump shooting big men, that they'll overlook big guys who can traditionally dominate around the rim. How Justin Patton got chosen before John Collins, is a testament to how dumb some of these GMs and their scouts are. Could you imagine Collins on either the Bulls ( who initially drafted him ) or the Timberwolves ( whom the Bulls traded the #16 pick w/Jimmy Butler ). As good as the T-Wolves are now, they would be absolutely scary if they were able to bring Collins off the bench at the 5 spot, instead of Gorgui Dieng. And for those of you who place value in the VORP stat ( Value Over Replacement Player ), Collins ( 0.7 ) ranks 4th in the NBA among rookies. The other thing is this: Only TWO of the top 10 picks have a VORP above 0.0 ( Jayson Tatum and Lonzo Ball ). Meanwhile, 6 guys picked 19th or lower have positive VORP numbers. This is not to say that being in the top 5 of the lottery isn't valuable. A lot of your future Hall of Fame talent is found there. But these GMs misread so much talent, that you can always find a stand out player almost anywhere in the 1st round, as long as you take a guy who has a skill set that could potentially be turned into something special.

Any problem with his play tonight?

Speaking of Mr. Howard . . . Usage rate last night: 25.4%

LOL . . he's the PG in a pick and roll offense. Of course he's going to handle the ball more. I just love the fact that you're using stats to build arguments now, whether I agree with them or not. This is great. One thing about that list though. All of those guys play alongside a guy who can not only create their own shots, but can get 20 points at the drop of a hat. Dennis doesn't have that. The other thing is that if you're truly trying to see how many shots a guy is taking, you have to factor in the Free Throw Attempts as well. While that technically isn't a shot ( only because they missed a shot when fouled . . or drew a foul while the team is in the bonus ), it is a possession in which he could've been shooting the ball. Kind of strange you give a pass for Wall for putting up "me first" stats, when he's notoriously one of the worst shooting PGs in the league. Here are all of Dennis' shots last night, by the way. He uncharacteristically missed almost all of his shots at the rim. Also notice that when he goes out of the game, the lead mysteriously increases. flag=3&CFID=&CFPARAMS=&PlayerID=203471&TeamID=1610612737&GameID=0021700522&ContextMeasure=FGA&Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular Season&RangeType=0&StartPeriod=1&EndPeriod=10&StartRange=0&EndRange=28800&section=game&sct=plot

(( whistling ))

The wins keep the fan base who pay $50+ dollars to attend these games, somewhat happy, and returning for games. Winning a few home games never hurt anybody. And don't get me started on the lottery crap. That "most odds" stuff from a probability standpoint. means virtually nothing, until you get out of the top 5 or 6 positions. Having the best odds in the lottery still means that you have a higher probability of picking 4th, than 1st.

Wizards are a fake good team . . . like the 2012 Hawks. They might be good enough to win a 1st round series vs an inexperienced team. Great 2nd half by the squad tonight. Ily and Beli with very good shooting games. Collins bringing the energy as usual. Dennis going for 21 pts - 7 asst. He finished the game with just 2 turnovers, after getting both of them early in the 1st quarter. If you lose in TDot . . that's OK. But save that next win for Saturday night for the home crowd.

2 garbage possessions. All because the offense doesn't want to throw the ball to Collins in the low post. Like he didn't make a living down there in college. Throw him the damn ball. And here comes Plumlee . . . Collins is out.

Collins +22 . . . 20 minutes of action. Hawks up 6 with 9:51 to go He's probably about to go to the bench though, because he's been out on the floor too long. Let's see if the Hawks can hold the lead. If they can't, let's see if Bud puts him back in the game.

LOL @ that lob to Collins from Dennis before halftime. He was out by the logo. Collins is +14 in this game, by the way. Plumlee -16

So my question is this: Why isn't John Collins starting . . nor finishing games? We have a deficiency at rebounding and defense . . . but one of the best rebounders and rim protectors on the team isn't on the floor during crunch time? I know people don't want the Hawks to win more than 20 games this season, but should that come at the expense of Collins not receiving his rightful spot in the starting lineup? At least let him close out games, if you're not going to start him.

While I didn't agree with your last reply to me, I'll "like" your post anyway, simply for defending your position with a few data sets. I'll reply in depth later today.

No doubt. Merry Christmas to all regular posters, inactive posters, and departed former members. Christmas wish . . for the Hawks to at least go .500 at home the rest of the way. The home fans need more to cheer about. If you want to suck on the road, fine . . . but at least give the home fans more to cheer about.

I agree. People have to accept Dennis for what he is . . . a GOOD scoring PG. To me, the point is to develop Dennis in the interim, before we get that "special player". Because when you look at championship level teams, you need at least 3 guys who can make big time plays. Dennis has proven these last 2 years, that he's not only capable of making plays and having big games during the playoffs, he's also not afraid to fail in those moments. He WANTS to be that guy, even if he doesn't have the complete skill set to be great in that role. Here's another question to the Dennis critics. Is there a PG currently in the NBA, that could legit turn this Hawks team into a .500 squad right now? I bet you can only answer that question with future Hall of Fame names. And don't say Chris Paul, because none of his teams have won anything with him being the best player on the team.

Dennis has assisted on 37.3% of the Hawks assisted FGs . . . which ranks 7th in the NBA. His 6.7 assists ranks him 9th in the league. So I'm curious. If Dennis played exactly how you wanted him to play, what would his stats look like? Points - assists - turnovers - FG% - FGA? So if he's getting 20 pts - 7 assts - 2.5 TOs - and is shooting 45% FG on 17 shots a game, what should those numbers truly look like? And please don't avoid answering this question. I want to see exactly what kind of PG you want Dennis to be, from a statistical standpoint. Other tidbits: Dennis has 201 total assists for the year. Jeff Teague has 205. The 2nd best player that Dennis plays with, is either John Collins or Taurean Prince. The 2nd best player that Teague plays with, is either Karl Anthony-Towns or Jimmy Butler. Does the personnel you play with, matter? As for Millsap, he was a wildly inconsistent jumpshooter last season, as well as a guy who didn't get a lot of his points off of the pick and roll. Millsap went ISO I would suggest that this video has every occassion of Dennis passing to Collins off of the PNR. That's hilarious. Diesel, you are legitimately the all-time greatest poster on this site, whether people agree with you or not. But if you're going to make this argument against Dennis, at least have some tangible facts to back up your claim. This is 2017, about to be 2018. We can look these things up to validate our positions. You want to know who and where Dennis throws his assists to? Fine. First off, here are ALL of John Collins FGAs for the season. https://stats.nba.com/events/?flag=3&CFID=33&CFPARAMS=2017-18&PlayerID=1628381&ContextMeasure=FGA&Season=2017-18&section=player&sct=hex One of the main things you'll see when watching this, is that EVERYBODY on the entire team is aware of Collins' athletic ability. And when he's around the rim, guys don't hesitate to get him the ball. And one of the main guys who tries to get him the ball, is Dennis Schröder. Where does most of Dennis assists come from? https://stats.nba.com/player/203471/passes-dash/?Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular Season&PerMode=Totals&sort=AST&dir=1 When you see these things, what do these numbers mean to you? As for the rest of you, please chime in as well.

Let's break down this video, and the assists Dennis had with Collins. 0:36 - With Prince on the left side, Collins screens for Dennis at the top of the arc to free him up to receive the pass. When Dennis receives the pass, his defender is a full 2 steps behind him. The only person between Dennis and the basket, is Lamarcus Aldridge at the FT line. Collins immediately rolls to the basket as Dennis is catching the ball, setting up a textbook pick and roll play. With 2 dribble toward the basket, Dennis is able to beat LA enough to deliver a perfect left hand bounce pass to Collins, who has an easy dunk. 0:49 - I can't tell who is at the Hawks logo initiating the offense. I'll say that's Babbitt As he passes it to Delaney, Dennis and I think Luke Babbitt are running a 2 man game, in which Babbit is setting an off screen to free up Dennis for a layup. Dennis goes around the screen, badly beating Kyrie Irving, and is streaking toward the basket. Meanwhile, as soon as Delaney catches the ball, he throws an excellent bounce pass to the cutting Dennis. Al Horford, being the good team defender he is, leaves Collins in the short corner and sprints toward the basket to prevent Dennis from getting an easy layup. Dennis would have to make a tough reverse layup with Horford right there, if he decides to shoot it. But Dennis sees Collins cutting toward the basket ( something that most of our jump shooting "bigs" don't do ), and he delivers an easy pass to Collins for the 2 hand dunk. Great awareness by both Dennis and Collins at the end. 1:03 - Dennis is being guarded by Austin Rivers out by the Hawks logo. With Cavanaugh moving across his line of sight at the 3 point line, Dennis does a hard attack on the left side, drawing the eyes of 4 Clippers, most notably Deandre Jordan, who is shading off of Collins to possibly protect the rim against Dennis attack. Dennis sees this all the way, and tosses up a "floater alley oop" to Collins, who slams it home. Dennis was quite happy with himself after this play. 1:12 - Ilyasova sets an interesting type of screen for Dennis, with his back to the defender, then quickly slipping off of it, going to his right. Collins, who was trailing, then quickly sets another screen for Dennis on his left side, to initiate the pick and roll attack. Dennis drives left toward the top of the key, but he has Drummond rushing out to him to prevent him from getting into the lane. No problem, says Dennis . . . I'll just drop this 2 hand bounce pass to my boy Collins, who has a wide open path to the basket for the dunk. Collins doesn't even have to think about. By the time he turns to roll, the ball is already on its way to him. 1:38 - After trying to set a pick for Dennis out by the 3 point line on the right side, Dennis finds himself in a little bit of trouble. Instead of worrying about Collins, both Bam Adebayo and Tyler Johnson blitz Dennis and doubles him. ( Good strategy, by the way ). Bam shows decent lateral quickness by forcing Dennis left. Johnson is out of position, trailing both Bam and Dennis. When Dennis finally gets enough daylight to get into the paint, he knows that Collins is going to be somewhere around the basket. And despite Jordan Mickey knowing that Collins is behind him, he ends up watching Dennis and the ball, which gets him dunked on by Collins. Tremendous pass by Dennis on this play. 1:45 - No need to break down this play because it's the EXACT SAME PLAY that we saw at 1:03. Same players. Same actions. Same results. 2:19 - Pick and roll again with Collins and Dennis, this time at the top of the arc. The Heat once again decide to blitz Dennis and double him. Bam is in the correct position, blocking off Dennis. But Dennis doesn't try to beat him off the dribble this time. Instead, take s one dribble to the right, and throws a beautiful pass around Bam to the cutting Collins for the dunk. 2:31 - Dennis with the "hockey assist" on this play. After Bembry fakes a screen on Dennis' man, he drifts to the right side of the FT line. Once he makes this action, Dennis goes left and throws a slick backhand bounce pass to Bembry. Bembry catches the pass as he's going to the basket, and immediately tosses it to the cutting Collins along the baseline, who goes in for the dunk. Great awareness by Bembry on this play, because he had 3 defenders looking to stop his drive. But that play doesn't happen unless Dennis finds him initially. 2:38 - Pick and roll again with Collins, out by the 3 point line on the left side. LaMarcus Aldridge doesn't blitz the screen, unlike what the Heat does, and decides to protect against the drive. Only one problem. The guy that you're supposed to be guarding, is an athletic freak, and he's drifting behind you off of the roll. As soon as LA goes to cut off Dennis, he finds Collins rolling to the basket. With Dedmon also in the game, all Pau Gasol can do is watch Collins streak toward the basket for the dunk. 2:45 - Pick and roll action again with Dennis and Collins, at the top of the arc. Pacers defend it the classic way, with the big man rolling back toward the basket to prevent the layup. But once again, the guy that Myles Turner is guarding, is not a jump shooting big. He's a guy that likes to go up and get it. Dennis is patient in his drive, and waits for Turner to clear the lane just enough so that he can toss the lob to Collins. (( See a pattern here folks? )) Before some of you go off on the deep end about Dennis, tell the coaching staff to play him with a guy who can make his life as a playmaker a whole lot easier. With Collins not in the game, Dennis is forced to either drive it all the way to the rim, or kick long passes out to shooters at the 3 point line. If the defender doesn't leave those shooters, or if our bigs stay camped out at the 3 point line, Dennis has to shoot the ball. And with those other guys, everything is "pick and pop", not pick and roll. Colling brings a totally different dynamic to the team, because he's athletic enough to make plays around the rim. And while Dwight was good around the rim last year, he wasn't running the pick and roll action that Collins is doing for us. When you're tanking, you don't necessarily want to put the best grouping together, or have "too much" chemistry developing. So until this coaching staff and organization decide that they're SERIOUS about winning games . . . Leave Dennis Alone.

Yes. At this point in the season, I'd rather see the Hawks pull out a few close games, like they did last night. I'm not mad with them losing at OKC w/o Dennis in a tight game. The team is to be commended for how hard they fought. But "celebrating" losses will never be cool with me. Close losses doesn't build a winning culture. Winning does.

Play him with the right personnel.

And he was playing alongside one of the best scorers in the league . . . and future Hall of Famer. You honestly think that Dennis could average 8 points and 9 assists, and see the Hawks be more successful, than him averaging 20 ppg and 6 assists? He just went for 33 pts - 7 assists tonight. And they needed every bit of that to win tonight.

And the trend continues. When Dennis is scoring the basketball at a high level, the Hawks win. Superstar 2nd half by Dennis.

Of course you do.

10 point lead . . (( poof )) Up 7 when Dennis went out. Down 1 now.

LOL @ Andre's interview with Gucci, Migos, and Yachti.