TheNorthCydeRises

We always show up for the playoffs though. Playoff attendance and intensity has never been a problem. Regular season is a different story.

Keep in mind that's the Microsoft dude. Seattle Clippers

It's his teammates fault that they haven't embraced Lance and what he does. The Pacers are a good team, but they're mentally weak for the most part. Quick . . . who is the leader of the Pacers? And when you give that answer, do you think he's a good or strong leader?

So did Rodman ... Lambeer ... Rick Fox ... they all won titles. Heck, even guys like John Starks, Matt Barnes, and ( gasp ) Zaza Pachulia were known irritants.

JayBird ... I would've never have signed Pero in the first place. I would've re-signed Ivan and added a vet backup like Samuel Dalembert. I could sign both of them around the same price the GM signed Pero and Brand ( which was a little over 5 million ). So my front court rotation would've looked like this: PF - Horford ( 32 ) - Ivan ( 16 ) C - Jefferson ( 32 ) - Dalembert ( 16 ) Ivan represents the high energy PF off the bench. Dalembert represents the shot blocking/offensive rebounding C. No room for Mike "MF" Scott in the rotation, unless he out plays Ivan for playing time. I could personally care less if our center could shoot a 3 pointer at a 30% rate and at a 12% rate in the playoffs. Give me big people who actually play like big people. Or gave Horford try to expand his range a little, but not just gun away from out there.

SMH more silliness. I post facts to back up my analysis and you continue with your silly notions about how he's not that impactful ... yet, admit that he's not overpaid. Talk about a contradiction. Ask Bobcat/Hornet fans just how good he was on both sides of the ball. He literally carried that team offensively at times. Simple deductive reasoning would tell you that if the front court improved by adding Jefferson, maybe the backcourt regressed a little. Kemba scored more, but only shot 40%. Gerald Henderson wasn't as good as last year. Could THAT be the reason why the Cats offense only became slightly better overall? Nope. Must be something else in your eyes. A) You don't win championships without stars - TRUE B) No evidence the GM doesn't value stars. - Tell me when he goes all out to get a star C) No evidence that the GM will not overpay for players who aren't stars - Well that's obvious, seeing that his first signing last summer was Kyle Korver. He over pays for role players, not stars. If you agree that at 13.5 million a year that Jefferson isnt overpaid, then YOU believe that Jefferson is a star. Just a lot of silliness from you in this thread. Just arguing just for the sake of arguing.

Jefferson didn't flip anything. You say that I'm overrating the hell out of him. I say that you and others have always underrated the hell out of him. Everyone knows that his weakness as a defensive player, was with the pick and roll. What those people don't realize, ( or flat out refuse to acknowledge ), is that there are other aspects to playing defense. Jefferson has NEVER, and I repeat, NEVER been a bad post defender. And the #1 defensive play that he's always been involved in, comes as a post defender. LOL @ a career turnstyle. The dude has pretty much limited his man to sub 50% shooting in the past 3 years. Jefferson simply was exposed when put in pick and roll situations. That was his turnstyle. But that only occurred on about 20% of his defensive plays. But look what he did in 2 of the 3 top defensive play types he was involved in this year in Charlotte. 2014 defense in Post Up situations: 0.73 ppp - ranked 44th - 36.6% FG 2014 defense in PnR Man situations: 0.72 ppp - ranked 13th - 30.9% FG The first stat has always held true. Not too many people abuse Jefferson down on the block. The dude is a wide body to get around and he plays his defensive position well in post up situations. The second stat is a result of what happens when a coach who actually knows how to defend the pick and roll, can put his players in the best situation possible. You don't have a slow 6-10 . . 280 lbs guy trying to go to the high side of the pick and roll and try to stop a quick PG 20 feet from going to the basket. You force your own PG to fight through that pick, cover the high side, and let Jefferson be the wall between the ball handler and the basket. As for the Bobcat Offense, they went from 28th in the league and a 101.5 rating wtihout Jefferson . . to 24th in the league and a 103.6 rating. ( basketball-reference ) Jefferson himself posted a 105 rating. See . . the silliness of your posts, is that you don't even do adequate research to even back up your assertions. Don't worry though, I'll do it to back up mine. - Charlotte frontcourt offense in 2012 - 13: 40.3 points - 30.8 rebs - 43% FG - 56.7 NBA Efficiiency Rtg - ( -22 Efficiency Differential ) . . LAST IN THE LEAGUE http://www.hoopsstats.com/basketball/fantasy/nba/teamstats/13/3/diffeff/1-1 - Charlotte frontcourt offense in 2013 - 14: 53.1 points - 31.9 rebs - 47% FG - 68.4 NBA Efficiency Rtg - ( 0.7 Effiency Differential ) . . 14th in the league http://www.hoopsstats.com/basketball/fantasy/nba/teamstats/14/3/diffeff/1-1 And keep in mind that the NBA Efficiency rating is almost a pure production type of stat. So the guys who produce are going to look better, than the guys who don't. What the Efficiency Differential shows, is if a particular man or group is getting out produced. The Charlotte frontline in 2012 - 13 was an absolute joke. The Charlotte frontline in 2013 - 14, became at least an average unit. And most of the reason for that was because they obtained an ELITE post scorer in Jefferson, who also became a damn good overall team defender in the middle . . while also gobbling up a ton of defensive rebounds. The Bobcat defense went from a ridiculous 111.5 rating ( last in the league ) without Jefferson . . to 5th ( not 6th, but 5th ) in the league, with a 103.8 rating. Jefferson's defensive rating? 100. The last part of playing defense, is grabbing the defensive rebound to end the possession. And guess who was 5th in the league in defensive rebounding? Yep. Now let's go to Antić. 4th string center? You sure? http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201311070DEN.html That's the 6th game of the season. The only guy out of the lineup is Ayón ( the guy that is supposedly playing in front of Antić ). But when you look at those first 10 games, Bud is not only playing Antić, he's giving him decent minutes . . sometimes over Brand and/or Scott. Antić is a dude that Bud basically hand-picked to be on this team. He was always going to get a chance to play and crack the rotation. He got his minutes cut when he was playing like a dog and Bud gave Ayón a chance to get some of his minutes. But initially, Antić was splitting time at the backup PF with Mike Scott, a guy who most Hawk fans didn't even think would make the team after Summer League. Now let's go to Millsap. Like I said, there's no beef with him. But all our GM did was replace our defensive minded, schizophrenic PF ( Josh Smith ), with a vast upgrade offensively in Paul Millsap. Problem is, that move still doesn't adequately solve our rebounding issues or the fact that we're still trying to play essentially 2 PFs in the lineup at the same damn time. The "facts" on Horford as a PF, is that he can play the position at a high level. And that was with playing alongside guys like Zaza and Jason Collins. So what kind of effect would his game undergo, if you put one of the best low post scorers in the game with him? How much better could those guys make each other? We'll never know though. The GM will continue to add scrub big men to this lineup, and force Horford to be "the man in the middle". We'll see in 2 years if he's still cool with that. We might even see rumblings of it again by the start of next season.

Some of his rotations were definitely suspect this season. He'll get a pass on that though, because Horford was out.

LOL. I like Bud a lot. But he's definitely not above being criticized.

The ironic thing about this thread is that JTB is the KING of knee-jerk opinions in this forum. While I don't agree with all of his rants, his posts are entertaining to me. Just wait till draft night. He'll be ripping dead into the GM if he feels that he made a bad pick. And he'll have the right to do so.

This is silliness. You asking did Jefferson produce 21 million more than Millsap, is like asking if Teague produced 31 million more than Mack, simply because Jeff got a 4 year deal at 8 million per .. while Mack was still on his 900K one year extension. See how silly that is? No one in this fan base has a beef with Millsap. He was a deserving All-Star. Jefferson's snub came via adding guys like Bosh, Hibbert, and my boy Joe Johnson. But adding Millsap to this team, when you could've added a legit scoring and rebounding center in Jefferson, was a flat out FAIL by our GM. The difference between adding Jefferson over Millsap is this. If Horford goes down, you still have Jefferson to anchor the middle, and you don't have to play guys like Antić out of position for an extended period of time. But with Millsap only being 6-8, the Hawks had to not only give Antić heavy minutes at center, they even had to play Millsap at times at center. You and some of the others keep talking about the value of contracts, but seem to disregard what is the absolute best fit for the team. Adding a big center for Horford to play alongside, could've made him an even better all-around player. It may also keep him a little more healthy. As for not giving Jefferson all of the credit, he can't take ALL of the credit. Maybe about 75% of it though. The Bobcats went from having a frontline that couldn't score at all, with Biyombo and Mullens ... to adding one of THE best scoring and rebounding centers in the league, who can also be a go-to scorer. And they went from the league's worst defense, to 6th best, because Clifford forced his guards to fight through screens on the pick and roll, while Jefferson sagged back and prevented the guards from getting to the rim. Jefferson's size was a roadblock in the paint for those small guards. He finally had a coach who could maximize his worth on defense. And because he is an ELITE defensive rebounder, it made the Cats defense that much tougher. So yeah, that 22 game jump in the standings was mainly because of his presence on the team. When Horford starts crying once again about not having a decent center to play with ... blame the GM.

He shot historically bad in the playoffs. Let's not downplay his epic fail of a performance. A ( -1 ) PER for the series, despite playing almost 25 minutes a game? Who does that?

This is the kind of stuff I used to do and got blasted for. Glad to see you come up with your own "unscientific" statistical method to come up with a decent analysis.

And who would be the better 4 . . . Horford or Millsap? If the answer to that question would be Horford, then you have to assume that putting an elite offensive and rebounding talent like Jefferson at the 5, would DRAMATICALLY make the Hawks a better team. And here's the main reason why it could. It would possibly eliminate the need to carry 2 scrub centers, and simply focus on backup PFs who bring different things to the table. Here's an example of our current frontcourt rotation, if everyone is healthy: ( minutes played per game is in parenthesis ) PF - Millsap ( 35 ) - Scott ( 13 ) C - Horford ( 35 ) - Antić ( 13 ) Now let's do the same thing, and add Jefferson to the squad PF - Horford ( 24 ) - Scott ( 12 ) - Antić ( 12 ) C - Jefferson ( 36 ) - Horford ( 12 ) Now you tell me, which rotation would be better for the Hawks? Everybody knows that I wouldn't even bring Antić back in the first place, and bring in a veteran PF or C. But it's easier to find a decent veteran PF who can actually give you decent production, than it is to find a decent C who can do those things.

And let's talk about the 2 deals of Millsap and Jefferson for a minute. And it's going to be totally from a different perspective than what people think about them. What if those short contracts given to those two guys end up actually HURTING both teams? Think about it. We sign Millsap ( a very good player ) to only a 2 year deal that ends next season. If he has the same type of season next year, that he had this year, what do you think the value of a versatile 29 year old PF is going to be? That value is going to be high . . . very high. Maybe even 13 - 14 million per year high. So when the GM is faced with a situation like that next summer, involving a bidding war with Millsap, what do you think our great leader is going to do? Will he re-sign Sap . . or will he let him walk, and hang onto precious "cap space" so that he can make a run at Lebron, Wade, or Bosh in 2015? And if he re-signs or doesn't re-sign Millsap, how does that affect Horford the next year? So while everyone praises that 2 year deal for Millsap, the worst case scenarios could be . . 1) we may still have to "overpay" him to keep him here . . or 2) we may flat out lose him, and not be able to replace him with a better player in free agency And the same applies to Jefferson and the Hornets. If he has another season like he had this year, he could simply opt out and try to get that last big contract of his career. So instead of 13.5 million for one more year, he could flip that into a 45 million contract for the next 3 years, starting in 2015. The ball will be in Charlotte's court then. Do you re-sign at all costs the best player you've had since Larry Johnson, or do you say that is too much money, let him walk, and risk losing everything that they've built up at this point? The GM's of the NBA have learned very little with this new CBA. They give 4 year deals to good, but one dimensional players like Korver, JJ Redick, and OJ Mayo . . but act like they're fiscally responsible when they UNDERPAY guys like Millsap and Jefferson. But it's the history of this league that has shown that it's actually those long term mid level contracts for players that a team think they "need" that end up being killers for a team, not big contracts to guys who can actually play. It's deals like the one we gave Marvin, or the current 4 year - 32 million deal that George Hill is on, that will kill teams. Not actually paying STAR caliber players.

Oh wow. First off, I could've sworn I responded to this last night on my phone, but I guess I hit the wrong button or something. Haha @ produce 21 million worth better than Millsap. Gotta love how you play with numbers like that, knowing full well that Millsap got a 9.5 million contract over 2 years compared to Jefferson's 13.5 million over 3 years ( with an option in Year 3 ). So let's see what the "value" of Al Jefferson was to the Bobcats this season - Averaged almost 22 ppg and 11 rebs while shooting 51% FG - Had a MONSTER 2nd half of the season ( 24+ ppg - 11+ rebs - 53% FG ) - Increased the Bobcats win total by a WHOPPING 22 games ( from 21 wins to 43 wins ) - Led the Bobcats to the playoffs for the 1st time in 5 years - And will likely make at least 3rd team All-NBA when those teams are announced this week Millsap is a very good player. A versatile player I'm happy to have him here. But he's no Al Jefferson. Jefferson is literally a guy who can function as the engine of a team at almost a superstar level. People think Jefferson was overpaid. No he wasn't. That guy is an ELITE low post scorer and an ELITE rebounder. And his defense ( especially in the pick and roll ) is vastly improved under the Bobcats/Hornets new coach Steve Clifford. I sincerely thought that if it were Charlotte that drew Indiana in that 1st round, Charlotte would've beaten that team. They would've beaten them because the Pacers had absolutely no one who could stop Jefferson . . and Kidd-Gilchrist is a good enough defender to keep George from going completely off on him. Charlotte didn't have better overall offensive talent than we did, but they were a better defensive team than we were. And they had something that we didn't have . . a legit go-to scorer. And his name was Al Jefferson.

We happen to catch the Pacers at their most vulnerable state in the season. That team had been messed up for almost 2 months before that playoff series. Give the Hawks props for fighting hard in the playoffs. But this squad was not a good team. We were horrible on the road ( only won 14 games ) and we had trouble vs most good teams. Even when healthy with a bottom 5 weakest schedule, we were only 3 games above .500 when Horford got hurt. If the GM only does minimalistic moves, expect a minimal move in the standings.

Of course if it were realistic to obtain Carmelo, I'd be all for that. So I'll stick with what is realistic. 1) Lance Stephenson in free agency 2) Rodney Hood in the Draft 3) Release Antić and add a defensive/rebounding PF/C .. while also adding Bebe to the roster.

This team lost 14 out of 15 games at one point this season. And we only won 38 games. Until this team does something that the Joe Johnson era teams did, like...I don't know ... win 50+ games and win a playoff series ... save all of that glowing praise of the GM. Facts are, as good as Millsap was this year, we would've been better off with Jefferson. And when he passes on another significant free agent this year to add cheaper, analytically correct players, we'll see how much we improve this year. You talk about Harden and Howard, like they didn't play a star laden team in Portland. Aldridge and Lillard are All-Star caliber players themselves, and they have a better supporting cast than Harden and Howard do. If we only add marginal pieces to this team this summer, don't be surprised if the Hawks are a 7th or 8th seed once again.

The point is that even great players have fought their own teammates. So a young player like Lance getting into it with a teammate shouldn't be a determining factor on if we should acquire him.

We have a better chance of getting Philips Arena re-named Mello Yellow Arena ... than actually getting Carmelo. Having said that, Melo can definitely play in Bud's system.

Stephenson shot 49% FG this year. How is that "streaky"?

Context is everything. People act like Stephenson did these things last week. Outside of the Turner fight, dude hasn't had many disciplinary issues. Even Jordan fought a few of his teammates.

Now .. ask yourself how many of those things can be corrected with good coaching. And who said anything about Lance being the #1 option? If he develops into that type of player, it would be great. But I envision him being like a 2nd or 3rd option scorer that may be good enough to give a final shot to. More important though, he can be a #2, even a #1 facilitator for a team ( much like he is right now ). If he's not Scottie Pippen lite, he can at least be Steve Francis in his prime.

Sothron ... All I can tell you is that at some point, we're going to have to take a gamble on someone. If any coach can keep him under control and get the most out of him, it's Bud. It's funny though. Mike Scott can gallop on a horse and smack his own butt after making a 3, and Hawks fans love it. But Stephenson doing anything to call attention to himself on the court draws the ire of the fan base. Personally, I think the Atlanta casual fan base in particular would not only embrace Stephenson, but might even want to come out to see him. I'll stand by the statement I made a few weeks back ... He's Scottie Pippen lite. Give that guy a bigger role, and watch him flourish.