TheNorthCydeRises

Honestly, this is one of the saddest threads of all time. Like watching the stages of death. Honestly, this is one of the saddest threads of all time. Like watching the stages of death.

He's #5 in NBA Efficiency at SG Only Harden, Wade, DeRozan, and Monta Ellis are ahead of him.

Dude . . that's 28th out of EVERYBODY in the league that guards in the post. And where are the Utah fans now? At the top of the lottery, with the big men they were counting on to replace Jefferson and Millsap ( Favors and Kanter ), playing lackluster basketball. Kanter especially has been disappointing for them this year, with his defense being far worse as a starter, than anything that Jefferson showed on a nightly basis. The problem with Utah during the Jefferson/Millsap years, was that their guards were horrible . . . especially on the defensive side of the ball. The bigs had to constantly help them out because they were repeatedly beaten off the dribble. Favors is a great help defender. Jefferson, not so much. But he goes to Charlotte, and they adjust how they play the pick and roll by having Jefferson sag into the lane, and forcing their PGs to fight over the screens. This forces the opposing PGs to shoot a bunch of midrange jumpers, which most of the can't make more than 40% of the time. By Jefferson sagging back when the PG is being screened, he's able to stay between the ball handler and the basket, and can get a hand up in their face to make the jumper more difficult. And on most nights, the Bobcat guards are adequate enough defenders to fight over/through the pick. The ballhandler then has Al in his face and the defensive PG nipping at his heels behind him. The shot gets rushed . . Jefferson gobbles up the rebound, and Charlotte ends the possession. As for my theory . . . something is happening. Tearing your pec muscle is a freak injury for the most part, especially for an NBA player. And Horford has done it twice in 3 years. So he's either working too hard in the weight room . . . or he's using steroids/PED's and weakening his tendons between the pec muscle and shoulder ( which is another cause for that type of injury . . drugs ). I refuse to believe that Hoford is a "roid head", so I'll go with the "trying to bulk up too much" excuse.

They were injured. At least that's the excuse Hawks fans would give. - No Deron - No Blatche - No Anderson - No Livingston - No Lopez Regardless of injuries, that was a good win by the Hawks tonight. If you're hurt, oh well. Suck it up and keep playing.

He is an average 3. Considering the fact that he was a backup 3 most of his night, being an average starting 3 is nothing to be ashamed about. He played great tonight. 12 pts - 11 rebs - and played lockdown defense on multiple people tonight.

Never watched the dude play live, but his family will get my condolences. RIP to a Hawks legend.

First . . . that extension offer did happen, but the dollar amount wasn't announced when it initially came down. Josh had told them that he wouldn't accept it and that he wanted to explore his options in free agency. LOL . . the report was not verified by either party huh? It wasn't denied by either party either. So I guess Chad Ford just made up an erroneous story about a Josh Smith extension right before the playoffs last year, and neither the Hawks nor Josh came out to deny it? Second . . that link is for what happened AFTER the 2012 - 13 season, when Josh was let go for nothing. The GM got his "good look" at Josh, and decided that he didn't want him anymore. Third . . Josh signed for 4 yrs - 54 million in Detroit ( which is the Al Jefferson deal + 1 more year, with no team or player options ). That's less per year that the 3 yr - 45 mill extension was for, but 9 million more in total money. If he'd had signed the Atlanta extension, he'd be making 15 million a year. And yes sir . . that is STAR MONEY. Josh Smith at 15 mill a year would NOT take a back seat to any player on this team. He would see himself as the STAR, even if the coach and the franchise didn't. LOL . . you guys will defend the GM to the death I see. That dude is a bad used car salesman, who will sell anything to the public. He gets no props from me until his moves see this team progressing toward where we were 4 years ago. Signing DeMarre Carroll to a great deal, despite DeMarre just being your average SF, does not make him some great GM.

Of course he'd be a fool for accepting that, if he thought he could get more. The 3 year deal that the GM offered him, was the most he could be offered under the new CBA. It was similar to the 4 year - 60 million deal that JJ turned down. That still doesn't change the fact that the GM DID offer this to Josh Smith, to try to keep him here. No way you can change history on that. So the question is . . if he didn't want to build around Josh, why even offer him that extension?

Charlotte was DEAD LAST in defense last year . . . this year with Jefferson, they're 6th. No major upgrades to the roster besides Jefferson, but they do have a defensive minded coach. According to SynergySports, Jefferson currently ranks: 28th in Post Up Defense . . . 0.69 points per play . . holding opponents to 34% FG 5th in Pick and Roll Man Defense . . . 0.64 points per play . . holding opponents to 30% FG So save that "Jefferson doesn't play defense" stuff for those who still think that it is 2009 . . not 2014.

Horford playing center may have led to the wear and tear that his pectoral muscles were taking on a nightly basis. The fact that he has to defend post players is the thing that would take its toll on Al, not his play on offense. Think about it. For Al to defend post players, he has to keep his body strong. So maybe he feels that he has to hit the weights extra hard to keep his body as strong as possible. Most pec tears happen during weightlifting. Al's pec tears happened when Hibbert basically slammed him to the ground, and while overextending trying to defend Varejao 40 feet from the basket. But both actions occurred when he had his arm overextended, and his pec muscles gave out. So maybe if Horford wasn't playing center, his workout regiment may be a little different, in order to defend PFs, who in today's NBA tend to be slashers and spot up shooters. It's not a coincidence that our two other guys ( Antić and Ayón ) got hurt playing center, when their natural positions in the NBA is at PF.

How do you post these stats, and declare that you'd take Millsap over Jefferson? Jefferson has better numbers almost across the board PLUS Jefferson plays center. Jefferson is a better go to scorer. Jefferson is a better team defensive player ( Defensive Rtg of 100 . . . compared to Millsap's 102 . . which is damn good for Millsap ). Jefferson is a LEGIT #1 option in the offense. Jefferson at 13.5 million is essentially equal to Millsap's 9 million + Brand's 4 million. Jefferson was NOT overpaid. He essentially got market value for what he is worth, and is proving that he is worth all that Charlotte paid for him. How do I know that Jefferson wasn't on the GM's radar? Because he's not the type of talent that the GM likes. He likes bigs who can shoot. He likes players who will pass the ball. And out of his own mouth, he doesn't believe that the "Miami model" is the way to build a winner ( i.e. - acquiring superstar players ). He firmly believes that it's all about the "sum of the parts" instead of having star and superstar players . . despite everything in NBA history speaking against that. Even the Spurs have star/superstar players in Duncan and Parker that their role players feed off of. That dude didn't want Jefferson, just like most of the fan base didn't want him back when we were talking about what free agents to bring here. You all believed all of those stories about him being horrible on defense and being a "black hole" on offense. And it's no sense bolding each players eFG%. Please don't get me started on that again. All the eFG% does, is prop up players who shoot 3s, and try to put them up on a level of good offensive talents. The fact that they both have essentially equal eFG%s does NOT make them equal offensive players. Number of 30+ point games: Jefferson: 12 . . ( 17% of his games ) . . 69 games played Millsap: 3 . . ( 4% of his games ) . . 72 games played Number of 10+ rebound games: Jefferson: 39 . . ( 57% of his games ) Millsap: 30 . . ( 42% of his games ) Number of double-doubles: Jefferson: 38 . . ( 55% of his games ) Millsap: 29 . . ( 40% of his games ) Number of 50%+ shooting games: Jefferson: 37 . . ( 54% of his games ) Millsap: 33 . . ( 46% of his games ) Number of 5+ assist games: Jefferson: 3 . . ( 4% of his games ) Millsap: 12 . . ( 17% of his games ) Number of 3+ steal games: Jefferson: 8 . . ( 12% of his game ) Millsap: 18 . . ( 25% of his games ) Number of 3+ block games: Jefferson: 7 . . ( 10% of his games ) Millsap: 3 . . ( 4% of his games ) Millsap is a very good complimentary player. He'd be the guy to put alongside of a Lebron James in Miami at PF, and he would flourish and be much more efficient. Jefferson is an ENGINE. He can carry a team at almost a superstar level, and not kill you with a low shooting percentage. He's also going to control the defensive boards . On a team like the Hawks, who get killed on the boards on a nightly basis, Jefferson would simply be the better fit. Here are the Hawks with Millsap and with Jefferson. PG - Teague . . . Teague G - Korver . . . . . Korver F - Carroll . . . . . Carroll PF - Millsap . . . . Antić ( his natural position ) C - Antić . . . . . . . Jefferson Instead of being almost strictly "jumpshot city", you now have the option to dump it down to Al in the post, and still have shooters ( Korver, Carroll, Antić ) around him. Millsap, quite frankly, just can't consistently dominate a game like Jefferson can. And Millsap is damn good when he's on. It's no slight against Millsap, but Jefferson is simply the better impact player. He was the better player in Utah, and he's the better player now. As the #1 option, Millsap's efficiency has gone down. He's getting star usage, but it isn't translating into "star" type numbers. 18 ppg - 8 rebs since Horford's injury is good. But 44% FG from the PF spot is not. And I like Millsap. That dude works hard as hell and goes to work. But Jefferson was simply the better fit for this team for the short and long term, whether people want to admit to it or not.

To add to this, people routinely forget that it was the GM who offered Josh Smith a 3 yr - 45 million extension before the start of the 2012 - 13 season. http://www.peachtreehoops.com/2013/4/14/4223096/josh-smith-nba-free-agency-atlanta-hawks He tried to sign Josh to an Al Jefferson like contract, except with Jefferson, he has the ability to opt out after Year 2. The GM was giving him a straight 3 year deal at 15 million per. There is no doubt that he wouldn't have mind rolling with Josh, if he could get him on a 3 year deal. So as you said, not only did he not try to sell Josh off, he tried to re-sign him. The GM definitely saw the Josh/Horford duo as the one to build around, until he saw for himself how Josh plays on offense.

This is how good Tim Duncan STILL is Per 36 minute numbers of random very good big men: Cousins 25.1 ppg 13.0 rebs 3.2 asst 1.4 blks 1.7 stls 26.1 PER .167 WS/48 107 Off Rtg 101 Def Rtg Horford, before he got hurt 20.2 ppg 9.2 rebs 2.9 asst 1.7 blks 1.0 stls 22 PER .140 WS/48 109 Off Rtg 104 Def Rtg Griffin ( who is having a borderline MVP type of year ) 24.2 ppg 9.6 rebs 3.8 asst 0.6 blks 1.1 stls 23.8 PER .204 WS/48 114 Off Rtg 103 Def Rtg Duncan 18.7 ppg 12.0 rebs 3.7 asst 2.4 blks 0.7 stls 21.4 PER .167 WS/48 107 Off Rtg 97 Def Rtg Howard 19.6 ppg 13.1 rebs 1.9 asst 1.9 blks 0.9 stls 21.4 PER .162 WS/48 109 Off Rtg 101 Def Rtg Jefferson 22.4 ppg 11.0 rebs 2.2 asst 1.1 blks 1.0 stls 22.5 PER .143 WS/48 105 Off Rtg 100 Def Rtg While Duncan isn't the scoring force that most of these guys are, he's BY FAR still the best defensive big man in the league . . . at 37 years old. The dude is STILL a borderline All-NBA level player and definitely an All-NBA 1st team All-Defensive player. The fact that he can still rebound and block shots at that rate and at his age, is incredible. Make no mistake. Without this dude, the Spurs are a middle of the pack West team, if not more near the 8th seed. Duncan is usually the difference when they beat elite teams.

Al Jefferson has been a scoring and rebounding force in the middle ever since his 3rd year in the league. And he's never been the complete defensive liability that people made him out to be. He was horrible against the pick and roll, but could do a good job guarding his own man. The problem with the GM's "plan" is that I don't believe you can trust him to bring in the right talent, to get us to that next level. Bud is obviously a good coach. But the GM's decision making on players is questionable at best. If he thinks we can get to that next level by acquiring a bunch of mediocre players on good contracts, he's going to be in for a disappointment. He's waiting for the perfect deal or the perfect player. Let's see if he can get it done, without seeing the rest of the conference rising above us. And as for this "capped out team", he had 30+ million to bring in some significant players to immediately improve us this summer. Instead, he brought in Millsap ( a damn good pickup ), Korver ( a decent pickup, albeit overpaid ), and Carroll ( who has outdone his contract, but is still a relatively average SF ). The guy to get though, was Jefferson. He would be the one that would enable Horford to move to PF, and form the best frontline in the league. Who knows? Maybe Horford doesn't get hurt, if he's not going up against big centers on a nightly basis. Maybe he's not 40 feet from the basket, trying to deny some guard the ball in Cleveland, if Jefferson is alongside him on the frontline. If Charlotte becomes the talk of these playoffs because Jefferson is balling, the GM needs to be held accountable for passing on a very good talent like that.

Charlotte has definitely passed us. They decided to bottom out the team 2 years ago . . and won only 7 games. Then they won 21 last year. This year, with only a coaching change and by adding a legit big man in Al Jefferson, they're about to DOUBLE that win total and win at least 42 games. And let's not get it twisted. 21.7 ppg 10.7 rebs 2.1 asst 50% FG 22.5 PER .143 WS/48 Those are Al Jefferson's numbers this year. He's an ALL-STAR even if he didn't get voted to the game. He definitely deserved it over Roy Hibbert. Matter of fact, you can make a dang good case for Jefferson being on one of those All-NBA teams. At least 3rd team All-NBA behind Howard and Noah ( who will get top billing because they are on playoff level teams ). Demarcus Cousins may be better than all of them, but will either get 3rd team, or get left off in place of Jefferson. Washington is a little ahead of us too, because they have their backcourt of the future set in stone with Wall and Beal. We really need for one of those kids to rapidly develop into a starter, so that the Hawks can get back into the top 4 in the East. Because the GM isn't going to overpay for a player that he could use ( like a Stephenson or a Deng ), but I guarantee you that a team like Charlotte will. The GM is too in love with his "system" in order to overpay someone to come here. He'd rather overpay Korver, than to overpay a legit 2-way player that can help us.

I still have no idea WTF they were thinking selling Kobe's jersey shirt in the arena. They couldn't have been that hard up for money. At most what . . they make a few hundred dollars? Maybe a few thousand if they sell them out? That's completely unacceptable.

The moral of this thread is that you can't wait until the last minute to tank. More than likely, you're not going to get an impact type of player at #12, nor are you going to get into that top 3. So if you're waiting until 2 minutes before midnight to tank, it's no sense in doing it. Most players have too much pride to scale back their games. Even if Bud made an intentional attempt to not play his better players, the reserves still might eek out a few victories. So if you're going to tank, do it from the jump. As for the free agent discussion, I'll still stand by what I say. When you're not in the playoffs, the only way you're going to attract a free agent, is if you overpay for them ( i.e. - Charlotte for Al Jefferson ). If you're in the playoffs, at least a little attention is on your team, so that a potential free agent can make an evaluation on whether he'd want to go there or not. Either way, this is probably the worst spot we can be in right now. Some of you who have blindly supported this GM, need to really start looking at what he's doing. We're not going to contend for anything if we're hoping on 2nd round picks to turn into legit starters and rotational players. We need an "engine" to this team, even if he isn't a bonafide superstar. But to me, the GM doesn't want an "engine" . . . he wants a team of reindeer pulling a sled. I'm just glad that some of you are seeing a little of the light about the true intentions of what this GM is doing. I don't think he has a lot of interest at all in bringing in elite talent. He's committed to his "system", and believes that will save the day.

It's funny how fans have praised the GM all year about building a team that can be "competitive". But when it comes to the ultimate test to show how "competitive" they really are, people have no faith in them at all. So I guess all of that talk believing the GM was simply a lie . . or at the very least, just a bunch of "hope talk" to support anything the GM does.

Well what if the Hawks DO push them to 6 or 7 games? What then? Like I said earlier, people thought we were doomed when we made the playoffs back in 2008 and faced a much better Boston Celtics team. I was at Game 3 vs Boston, and the crowd was easily 40% Celtics fans. But when we won Game 3, the city got behind the Hawks a little more for Game 4. By Game 6, that crowd was fully Atlanta supported. So let me get this straight. If I'm a free agent, and I see the Hawks get swept by the Heat, in front of a 40% Heat crowd in ATL . . . . that's better than the Hawks not being seen at all on national TV, for that free agent to not see us? ( who may be watching the playoffs because his team sucks too ) We don't get much national exposure as it is. We'll get tons of it with a series against the Heat . . just like we got against Boston back in 2008. If I'm a free agent, I'm either going to go to the team that can pay me the most . . where I can play the most . . or be a part of a playoff level team. The Hawks definitely aren't going to pay the most. And we're a borderline playoff team right now. So the determining factor may be if he can get a lot of playing time here. The only way he may know that, is if he watches the team. If I'm a free agent center, Atlanta may be the place to look at, because once I see who they have at center, I may make the determination that I can beat him out for the job and get minutes.

What about the rest of the teams in the East? Here are their records since the All-Star break - Brooklyn: 18 - 7 - Chicago: 18 - 7 - Toronto: 17 - 8 - Charlotte: 16 - 8 - Miami: 16 - 9 - Washington: 15 - 10 - Atlanta: 9 - 16 A lot of those teams benefited from their schedules softening. We wouldn't have been that fortunate. Our schedule has been pretty tough since New Year's Eve, with it softening a little just recently. If we were in a matchup with Chicago or Brooklyn in the First Round, I don't know if we could beat them if we were healthy. Same goes for a matchup with Toronto. And any matchup with Miami will be a loss in just about every scenario, although we could possibly take a game or two from them. So yeah, it's an overreaction. It's cool though.

And I know that "props" doesn't mean a damn thing in the grand scheme of things. But unless we miss the playoffs and get extremely lucky enough to land one of those top 3 seeds, we're going to be right back in the same boat next season. And even then, it's still up to the GM to make the right selection to help the team. If a guy like Julius Randle is the best available on the board, do you bypass him to draft Dante Exum . . just because you have Horford and Millsap on the roster? It's potential mistakes like these that see GMs constantly make mistakes in the draft. They too often draft for need, instead of drafting the guy who can be a potential star. Now this is not to say that Randle will be a better NBA player than Exum. Heck, it may be Marcus Smart. The point is that if the GM doesn't identify who has the most potential to be a star or a superstar, you can still mess up the draft. We Hawks fans know all about messing up top 10 picks.

Ummmm no. Love the overreaction though.

What is truly more damaging? Making the playoffs and pushing the Heat to 6 or 7 games, which would give validation that Bud and his system IS working .. If he has the talent? Or not making the playoffs and being a complete afterthought to not only the media, but to free agents as well? Even if the Hawks get swept, a free agent could look at our team and say to himself ... "hey, I could help them". Playoffs = national exposure If the Heat wipe the floor with us, they were supposed to do it. If we push them to 6 or 7 games, people will notice that and give us props.

First off . . I should've scrolled down one more post to see your reply. It would've saved me some typing. Second . . while I pretty much agree 100% with you, it's a little too late in the game right now to try to jockey for draft position. As good as people say this draft is, I really only see about 5 potential franchise changing talents - Wiggins - Parker - Randle - Embiid - Smart Everyone else will either be solid starters or good role players off the bench. Honestly, for this team to get to that next level, they're going to have to trade either Horford or Millsap for a talented young player or a high draft pick. But I'll bet that the GM won't do it, because he's more of a believer in the "system" than he is a believer in acquiring top level talent.

There's a difference between being "competitive" and being "contenders". The teams and players you named are contenders. Teams like the Wizards, Bobcats, and T-Wolves are competitive. I'm not a tank guy. And I agree with you that being competitive isn't a bad thing. It's just that we need ELITE talent around here, in order for us to go to contender status. You're more than likely are not going to find an elite talent at #12. A good talent, possibly. But not an elite talent. If you want that elite talent, you either have to be real bad and get a high draft pick . . real savvy in free agency to get an elite player . . or real smart and identify a star talent that slips in the draft.