TheNorthCydeRises

That "window of opportunity" means nothing if the GM isn't willing ( or can't ) bring in higher level talent. We are not going to be able to progress as a team, with Korver playing 34+ minutes a night. We are not going to be able to progress as a team, if we have to rely on Millsap to play spot minutes at center. We are not going to be able to progress as a team if 3 of the GM's 1st round picks aren't even contributing to the team. And I'll say this again . . . the rest of the league is NOT going to wait for us to get good. Take Lance Stephenson, for example. What would you pay to get Lance here? And if the Hawks bottom out and miss the playoffs, tell me why Lance would sign with us,and not with these teams . . . - Indiana: especially if they get to the NBA Finals - Dallas: because the Mavs have a ton of cap room now and a high profile owner that takes care of his players - Charlotte: if they make the playoffs and play well, they'll be seen as an up and coming team - LA Lakers: can play with Kobe + possibly Melo, and play with a historical organization - Phoenix: who has a young team with a ton of cap space and draft picks to execute a sign and trade if need be You think Lance is going to look at the Hawks and say to himself . . . "Man, they have a great culture and system there, so that will be the perfect place for me." The GM has to be able to build this team right, with the right players. Most important though, he has to be able to acquire high quality talent, and be willing to pay for that talent, if need be.

- Brooklyn: The Nets were THE most hurt team at the beginning of this season. Hawks fans want to now use injury as an excuse, but the Nets had just about everybody but JJ hurt at one time. Now, only Lopez is hurt, and that Nets team has posted one of the best records since the start of 2014. They're 15 - 6 since the start of 2004 . . and 16 - 10 since Lopez went down. - Chicago: Lost Derrick Rose ( again ) and traded off Luou Deng. That was arguably 2 of their top 3 players they lost. The result? They're 17 - 7 since the start of 2014 and 15 - 7 since the Deng trade ( that was supposed to lead them to tank ). Two teams. One that was injury riddled, but got people back ( despite still losing arguably their best offensive weapon ), and started winning. The other, who lost an MVP candidate for the 2nd year in a row and a former All-Star SF by trade, but has started to thrive without both of them. The Hawks can use the injury excuse as to why they're not competitive these days. But you also have to point to how the GM built the team. When you invest in marginal players, and bypass high level players, you get what you get when your good players start going down to injury.

Not true. If you're a team like the Bobcats this year, or the 2008 version of the Hawks, who hadn't made the playoffs in a long time, just getting in "the dance" will help you in the future. That first playoff series vs Boston definitely set the tone for the improvements we saw in the Hawks for the following 3 years after that. The same would happen for the Bobcats, if they were an 8th seed, but pushed Miami or Indiana to a Game 7 in the 1st round. If this year's Hawks team finished 38 - 44, but pushed Miami to a Game 7 and lost, I'd say that this entire fan base would be satisfied with their effort, Now the question is . . . which is more important for the future? Establishing that we can play with the "big boys" in the playoffs, but losing . . . or acquiring a good to very good young talent in the draft? I'm of the belief that . . . Talent >>>> System > Culture So if the Hawks can't do better than the 7th seed and finish above .500, they may as well miss the playoffs and shoot for a top 12 pick to see if they can get some more talent here.

All I wanted the GM to do ( I refuse to even say his name anymore ) . . . was to build the best team possible . . or tear it completely down. Don't play it down the middle. But that's exactly what he did. But people praise that dude like he has done something great. SMH . . . . tonight's loss makes the first time in 8 years that the Hawks have lost 8 in a row. And I remember those stretch of games back in 2006. Josh Smith went down, and JJ was basically left by himself to carry the load. Shelden and Marvin couldn't step up.

LOL . . . it's too bad I didn't see this earlier in the day. My computer would've had a meltdown between here and Peachtreehoops. I'll just post one of my many replies on this topic right here, and go from there. This was a reply when someone said that JJ was worth every penny to the Nets: The JJ deal put an absolute DEAD franchise back on the map. It enabled them to re-sign 2 very good players in Deron and Lopez. Because of that, they instantly became relevant on the national TV map. They made a 27 win jump in the standings last year. They made the playoffs for the first time in 5 years. But unfortunately, they laid an egg vs a more mentally tough Chicago Bulls team. Meanwhile, look at the Hawks. Last year, we survived just fine without JJ, winning 44 games. We lost a tough series to Indiana. Last year was not a failure, and Ferry had the opportunity to go either way . . . build a better team, or completely tear it down and rebuild it. Instead, he used JJ’s cap space to do virtually nothing to improve the team. You can argue that the money vacated from not re-signing Smith was put to good use by signing Millsap. But where has JJ’s money gone? - re-signing Teague to a 4 year deal . . . 8 mill this year- signing Lou Williams to a 4 year deal . . 5.2 mill - signing Kyle Korver to a 4 year deal . . . 6.7 mill- signing DeMarre Carroll to a 3 year deal . . . 2.5 mill- signing Brand . . . 4 mill- signing Antić . . . 1.2 mill- signing Ayón . . . 1.5 mill Now look at that list of players. Currently, the fans want the 8 million guy ( Teague ) and the 5 million guy ( Lou ) traded. They love the 1.2 million guy ( Antić ). They really love the 2.5 million guy ( Carroll ). The 6.7 million guy is celebrated, despite getting outplayed 1 every 2 games ( Korver ). And the 1.5 million guy is a journeyman that is only playing out of emergency ( Ayón ). Basically, the legacy of the JJ deal hinges on the ability of Dennis Schröder to eventually take the PG spot . . . and for Brooklyn to bomb out and give us an opportunity to improve our draft position. The JJ deal is nothing but a salary dump, because Ferry didn’t use it to bring in another significant player. If Dennis doesn’t pan out, the next few years for the Hawks could really be a mediocre experience. Moreso than during the Joe Johnson era.

LOL @ 40 members and 71 guests currently reading this thread. Well let's give them something to read "Antawn is a great pro. We are very excited to have an experienced all-star player of Antawn's caliber and character join us," Cavaliers Hawks general manager Danny Ferry said in a statement announcing the trade. "He has the ability to add a special, unique dimension to our team with a strong inside presence and the ability to stretch teams defensively, while impacting the entire court. We think he matches the culture we have built, and continue to build, and will fit well with our group on the court and off." Yea CULTURE !!!

(( singing like Lil Wayne )) Go GM . . . That's my GM . . . Go GM . . . That's my GM (( Miss Bonita off of In Living Color voice )) Bet nobody say nothing bad about my GM. That's MY GM.

Once again . . . using ONE negative stat against him ( that isn't even a negative ), to try to devalue the contribution he brings to the table. LOL @ ONLY +2.5 with him on the court . . on a Bobcat team that was the WORST team in the league on defense last year, but is SIXTH in the NBA on defense this year. How about the fact that despite only making a coaching change, and bringing Jefferson to replace those scrub big men they had in Charlotte last year, the Bobcats have already surpassed their 21 win total of last year . . . and are on pace to win 37 games. You hold onto that "only" +2.5 with him on the court stat. He's already +4 in the win column for Charlotte compared to last year, with 27 games to go.

What makes Ferry's front office a top 7 front office? Heck, what makes our front office even a top 3 in our division?

I'll slow down my rant with this. As for the theme of the topic, we all knows what happens with you F--k up.

Ummmm . . . you could say the same thing about Kevin Love, who hasn't made the playoffs in his 6 years in the league. Would you like to have Kevin Love here? Jefferson's not the center we need? We need anybody with talent that we can get our hands on. And I'm sorry, if I can get 22 ppg from ANYBODY, I'm taking that. Jefferson isn't a great rim protector, but he's a top 10 rebounder in the league, and a beast on the defensive boards. You know where the Hawks rank in rebounding? Offensive rebounding: 28th Defensive rebounding: 20th Total rebounding: 28th But we don't need a guy like Jefferson, who is top 10 on the boards? The other thing about Bud's offense is this. While it's a great free flowing type of offense that gets people open looks, the negative is that too many people handle the ball at times, which leads to a lot of turnovers. We're 21st in the league in turnovers. You know who doesn't turn the ball over? Al Jefferson. How much more dangerous would the Hawks offense be, if we had the option to simply throw it down to Jefferson on the left block, and let him go to work? Once again, talking about a rim protector and a rebounder is all well and good. But you have to talk in real world terms. The only rim protector and rebounder that was available last season, was Dwight Howard. When you can't get him, do you just sit back and go without . . . or do you wait another year or two or three years for that coveted "rim protector"? The rest of the NBA is not going to wait on Ferry to make the right decisions. They are going to make moves and set themselves up to get the players that they want. Washington just got Andre Miller to back up Wall Charlotte just got 2 offensive guards in Gary Neal and Luke Ridnour Brooklyn made their move for Marcus Thorton last night Let's see what Ferry does.

You know what the REAL problems with the Joe Johnson era teams were? - no competent PG to run the team, especially from a leadership standpoint - JJ's unwillingness to try to take over games offensively - Josh Smith thinking he was much better than what he was - poor play from our marginal players ( Marvin, Zaza, Bbby, etc ) - poor coaching in the playoffs Some of us on this forum have been saying since 2009, that Smith or Horford needed to be flipped for a good PG or a good C. Most of us knew that they were simply too small and not physical enough to excel in the playoffs. So one of them had to go. But Sund "loved his core", so not only did they stayed, he re-upped with Zaza, Marvin, and Bibby to medium and long term deals. From my standpoint, "flexibility" doesn't mean skimping on money paid to the actual stars of your team. I mean, what kind of money do you think Millsap is going to get in the summer of 2015, if he's playing like he is right now? He's going to be in demand, and he's going to get a deal somewhere in the 10 - 13 million range. So what is Ferry going to do then? Tell Millsap that his services are no longer needed, because we're not going to give him a 3 yr - 36 million dollar deal? My plan is simple. Construct the best BALANCED team possible . . . or blow the dang thing up and get us into this lottery. Jefferson and Horford would've given us a great frontline to work from. Then you get the best available guard ( preferably at PG ). If you keep Teague, then get us a high quality wing that can score the basketball and create his own shot. And you use the draft to select NBA ready players, not projects. To get the type of player we want though, we're going to end up trading either Millsap or Horford. Because I don't see any of the major free agents coming here, nor do we have enough money freed up this summer to make a serious play at those guys.

My disdain is directed at the GM, and not the fans. I will say this about our fans though. I think we ( myself included ), tend to focus on a negative aspect about a player we don't like, or don't particularly care for . . . and try to use that negative to completely override the positive aspects of his game. When Jamal Crawford was here, that's exactly what I did in the beginning. I did not like his And-1 mixtape game before he came to Atlanta. But even I had to admit that Jamal was more of an asset than a liability on most nights, especially in that 2009 - 10 season. By the 2nd year though, Jamal was exhibiting the erratic play that he was known for. And it came down to the point that in order for Teague to develop, Jamal had to be gone. Not because Teague was better, but because Drew would continue to defer to Jamal for his offense, even playing him at the point, and limit Teague's overall playing time. Overall though, Jamal was good for the Hawks, as much as it pains me to admit that. This is what you're seeing with the Al Jefferson argument. Our fans think that the money he's making, is too much money. I don't. And that's fine. Most fans see him as a complete defensive liability, when the reality is that ( according to SynergySports ), Jefferson is . . . - only giving up 0.71 points per play on post ups, with opponents shooting 35% . . ( rank: 37th in the NBA ) - only giving up 0.69 ppp on the pick and roll, with opponents shooting 31% . . . ( rank: 8th ) - giving up 0.94 ppp on spot up shots, with opponents shooting 45% . . . ( rank: 129 ) These are the 3 main defensive situations that Jefferson is in. When you look at these numbers, it shows that a) centers aren't scoring in the post with great efficiency vs Jefferson b) his coach Steve Clifford has made an adjustment in Pick and Roll situations that has turned him into an asset on that play c) he's probably not challenging jump shooting centers, giving them wide open midrange jumpers and 3 point looks So forget the "perception", those are the truths about Jefferson and his defense. Clifford has instructed Jefferson to sag in the lane on the pick and roll, and told his guards to fight over top of the screen. That way, Jefferson is still in position to guard the "roll man", and the guard handling the ball will opt not to challenge the bigger Jefferson in the paint. If the guard does shoot, he's normally taking a 15 - 18 foot jumper, with the trailing guard closing out on him. From a defensive standpoint, that's great coaching by Clifford. But the other element in this, is this fear of being "capped out", when we're nowhere near being "capped out". Adding a 13 - 14 mill player to this team doesn't cap us out, especially if that player is good. What happened in the Joe Johnson era, isn't that contracts like JJ, Smith, and Horford capped us out. It was the extensions given to Bibby, Marvin, and Zaza ( which equaled to about 20 million a year ), that did us much more harm. They were the guys who we erroneously invested in long term, that kept us from improving when we were real good. And even in those years, the front office could've added an MLE level player ( and put us into the Luxury Tax ), but never did it. This is league where talent wins games, and coaching gets you over the top. But even mediocre coached teams can win with good to great talent. You can't say the same in reverse, with a good to great coach winning with mediocre talent. Doc Rivers isn't going to win with a bad Boston team. Bud isn't going to win if he has to rely on Mike Scott for instant offense ( and I like Mike Scott ).

But Noah was not available . . . Jefferson was. So what do you do? Do you continue to rummage through garbage cans to find a competent center? Or do you continue to trot out Horford at center, and hope that he and Millsap can become a high quality tandem in the near future? I don't see how you can talk about rather spending money on a player like Noah, when Noah was never available. We as fans have to speak in real world terms. And frankly, this franchise can't afford to pass up on ANY talented players. Peoria . . . as of right now, when do you think we'll have a 50 win team in Atlanta? What does Ferry have to do, to even get us back to the level of the Joe Johnnson Hawks? Because even when Horford was healthy, we barely had our head above the .500 level mark. It wasn't like this team was playing high level basketball anyway. We were a #3 seed by default, because the rest of the East was so bad. Memphis, who is the #9 seed in the West with a 30 - 23 record, would be a solid #3 seed in the East. And I'm sorry P. If Ferry had completely tore down the team from the jump, you could preach patience. - But when you have 30+ million in cap space - And you still have a top 25 player in Al Horford - And you fail to get us a high quality center to finally free him up to play his natural position of PF - And then you fill the center position with a bunch of bench quality players You're not only doing the franchise a disservice, you're doing your best player a disservice. Trust and believe that if Ferry doesn't get a high quality center here in Atlanta, Horford will be gone in 2 years. He's not going to continue to bang on the inside against the bigger guys, just because the GM doesn't believe that we need a more traditional center. And if Horford walks, and we don't have any legit talent behind him, Ferry will have no choice but to blow it up. By then, we're be in Year 4 and 5 of the Ferry regime. And if he decides to blow it up that late in the game, he should be out of here.

Al Jefferson currently has a 99 Defensive rating. That places him in the top 20 in the NBA. People want to talk about Jefferson not playing defense, but will go to the ends of the Earth to say that Korver is a great TEAM DEFENSE type of guy. Meanwhile, Korver gets outproduced every other night. A Jefferson - Horford frontline would've been a godsend for this franchise. A true building block to construct a squad around. There is no "plan" in the Ferry era. He's simply trying to be opportunistic if and when something comes up. Just because most Hawk fans don't believe that Al Jefferson isn't a high level player, doesn't make it true. He's better than Millsap, despite Millsap's All-Star selection. And that's not a knock on Sap. It's simply illustrating how good Jefferson is. In the time frame since Horford went down ( basically since Dec 28th until now ), here are Jefferson's numbers 23.8 ppg 11.2 rebs 2.5 asst 1.0 blks 1.0 stls 52% FG 68% FT But only Hawks fans would find something wrong with a player producing at this level. Saying that he's overpaid, despite functioning as a #1 option on a nightly basis and dominating the defensive boards. Despite being able to score ( even dominate at times ) against defensive centers like Hibbert and Noah. But keep waiting on our beloved GM to save us with some genius deal. Celebrate a Jordan Hill trade, like Ferry just pulled off some major coup or something.

I was never a fan of the Ferry hire. The day he traded off JJ for 5 dead flies, was the day he started to lose me. People celebrated that move. But the "plan" for guys like JJ, Smith, Horford, etc, was to flip them for either better talent or for picks. We lose JJ for virtually nothing but cap space. We lose Smith for virtually nothing but cap space. And it will be interesting to see what we trade Teague for ( if he's able to trade him ). Going into this season, Ferry could've either constructed a team that was going to be bad, enabling us to get a high 1st round pick . . . or constructed a team that could've had a few very good core pieces, and kept us in the top 4 in the East. Instead, Ferry plays it down the middle . . . which is exactly where the fan base does NOT want to be. Until he pulls off a significant franchise changing move ( or a series of them ), I will be in the camp that is highly critical of Ferry. He's done nothing to help this team, in my eyes.

It's just amazing how quickly this fan base has turned on Jeff Teague. Start this type of thread 2 months ago, and people would've called Ferry crazy for trying to get rid of him. The crazy thing is that Dennis is even more an unstable offensive player than Teague is. He has a suspect jumper. He needs to be totally wide open to make 3s. He can't shoot off the dribble. He can pass though . . . and turn the ball over more too. Blame the GM folks.

Or at least 2 out of those 3. I mean, if he was unsatisfied with Teague, then go ahead and make sure that we acquire the 2nd best center ( and best offensive center ) in free agency . . in the form of Jefferson. When it comes to Iggy, he was the best defensive wing on the board, who can also serve as the lead playmaker on the team, and can also score the basketball. I'm not the biggest Monta Ellis fan in the world, but I've always believed that Monta plays better with competent talent around him. Give him Horford and Jefferson as his big people, and Monta maybe isn't the machine gun shooter that he was in the past. His play in Dallas this season shows that the guy can play efficient basketball. And if Ferry wasn't enamored with Teague, he definitely should've gone after Monta hard. A lot of people keep worrying about how much some of these guys are paid. Or believing everything that Ferry tells them about staying "flexible" so that we'll be in position to get that prized free agent. Well let me ask people a question: What is the likelihood of Carmelo Anthony coming her next summer? How about Kevin Love the following summer? Lebron? Wade? Kyrie Irving? Any of those guys coming to Atlanta anytime soon? If not, then what in the world do you expect Ferry to spend money on? Should he keep going to the Dollar Tree, and try to find bargain basement type players who can contribute? Or should he actually try to build a solid TEAM by acquiring good starting caliber talent, then worry about the fringe players later? Ferry lost me when he made Kyle Korver his very 1st free agent signing. Like Kyle was the most vital piece to what he wanted for the future. The fact is that Al Jefferson should've been the Hawks #1 free agent target this year. 13.5 million for a guy who can get you 20 ppg - 10 rebs, while shooting 50% FG, is not a bad contract. And it's been proven this year that in the right defensive system, Jefferson can be an asset, and not a liability on defense. All of this talk about the Hawks needing a center could've been resolved very easily this summer. Chasing Dwight was idiotic. Passing on Jefferson was almost equally dumb. So you get what you get when Ferry spends 6.7 million this year on Brand, Antić, and Ayón.

No position? You don't think that if Horford asked to be traded say by this time next season, that the Hawks wouldn't get all kinds of offers for him? I know he's hurt right now, but in a year, he should be fully healthy, and right back to the player he was before the injury. These injuries have actually prolonged his career a bit

This is true . . . if he wasn't playing bad. When JJ was traded, his scoring numbers were down, but his FG% and 3FG% were all up, especially in the 2nd half of the 2011 - 12 season. This led Brooklyn to believe that he could still be an All-Star caliber SG for at least 2 years, as well as a guy who can be at least a 2nd fiddle in the offense. The big thing though, is that acquiring JJ would help them re-sign Deron Williams. If Josh was playing like he is in Detroit, it may be a problem trading the guy. Also, we traded JJ for 5 dead flies, so maybe that's the type of deal we get in return in a Josh trade. And that wouldn't be good.

Teague possessing the power to veto a trade is a killer for Ferry. But this is what happens when a GM plays around with people that he doesn't necessarily want, but realize that he may actually need him.

Another 1.5 years? Oh wow. Horford might be asking for a trade by then.

Teague's stats before the Horford injury 29 games 33.4 minutes 16.8 ppg 8.2 asst 2.9 rebs 1.3 stls 3.4 TOs .421 FG% . . ( 13.6 att/gm ) .268 3FG% . . ( 2.4 att/gm ) .808 FT% . . ( 5.8 att/gm ) .520 TS% 26.5% usage 105 Off Rating 108 Def Rating Teague's stats after the Horford injury 21 games 30.6 minutes 13.7 ppg 5.6 asst 2.2 rebs 1.1 stls 2.8 TOs .398 FG% . . ( 12.6 att/gm ) .232 3FG% . . ( 2.7 att/gm ) .890 FT% . . ( 3.5 att/gm ) .486 TS% 25.1% usage 97 Off Rating 110 Def Rating

Not just draft decisions. Free agent decisions too. It's kind of like polls and elections. The results may not be official until after the election, but polling data can give you an indication of how an election will turn out. We are in the "polling" status, when it comes to evaluating Ferry.

Oh I agree with you Mace. I said at the time that it would be dumb for Josh to sign that deal, when it was rumored that he could get a 60 million+ deal at the end of the year. The fact is though . . . Josh was "Ferry's Guy" during his first summer here. And Ferry offered that extension, when he didn't have to do anything. Had Josh not believed that he could get more money on the open market, we'd be talking about Josh right now, instead of Paul Millsap.