TheNorthCydeRises

Don't make the Pau Gasol for Shareef trade in 2001. I'm not nearly as down on Reef as most Hawks fans are. He did his job in Atlanta as a good to great primary scorer and rebounder. But the fact that we only kept him 2.5 years, while Gasol is still a high level player in the league, probably has hurt us more than what we want to admit to. Just think . . . the Summer of 2005 could've really have been a blockbuster summer for us. We would possibly have a young team, with Gasol, Smith, and Childress here in the mix. We'd maybe have the opportunity to draft Chris Paul. And we possibly could've still made a play for Joe Johnson ( but maybe not have enough money to pay him the ballooon payment in that 1st year ). Here's the 2005 Hawks, if we pulled all of that off PG - Paul G - Johnson F - Harrington PF - Smith C - Gasol Paul's playmaking prowess, along with a dynamic young JJ, and a young Gasol in the post, could've really been the start of a very solid foundation for at least 4 years for us. Smith wouldn't be forced into a scoring role, and would simply focus on defense, rebounding, and scoring in transition. We wouldn't have Horford in the future, but we may have been a better team with a Big 3 of Paul - JJ - Gasol.

Lady and gentlemen, my thing is this. I agree that you can't necessarily kill Ferry for his draft picks by giving him an F, because we do need to see if they can be developed in the future. On the flip side, you can't act like Ferry did such a great job with his 2 drafts, that you're willing to give him a high draft grade, even though only one of his draft picks is even contributing. The facts are that as of right now, only Mike Scott is contributing to this team on a nightly basis. Jenkins is hurt. Dennis can't crack the rotation. And Bebe and Muscala are overseas. At some point in the very near future, Ferry and Bud are going to either have to make a commitment to develop some or all of these guys, or trade them away for other project type players who may be a better fit. It's going to be very interesting to see who Ferry decides to keep off of this current squad. These are the players who have guaranteed deals next year. PG - Teague G - Korver F - Carroll PF - Millsap C - Horford G - Williams G - Schröder G - Jenkins 1st round pick 2014 Mack, Scott, Ayón, Brand, Martin, Cunningham and Antić are guys who aren't guaranteed next year. To me, either Williams or Mack cannot be brought back next year, in order to give Dennis the backup PG spot again and commit to developing him. And to make time for at least Bebe, two out of the three from Brand, Antić, and Ayón shouldn't be brought back. If a guy like Bebe isn't over here next year, he may turn out to be just like Euro draft picks of the past . . . Sergiy Gladyr . . Cenk Akyol . . David Andersen. He needs to be here next year.

??? Jordan was a superstar . . the BIGGEST SUPERSTAR. And Pippen was considered to be one of the 50 greatest players of all time, during that era. When you say you would rather have a team full of all star talent and role players, isn't that what the OKC Thunder and LA Clippers made of? - Durant and Westbrook are All-Stars, with Ibaka being a good role player - Paul and Griffin are All-Stars, with Jamal Crawford being a good role player - Rose doesn't have another offensive All-Star to play with - Melo absolutely has no help that can play at a consistent level

Let's look at Cleveland the past 2 years 2012 Draft - Dion Waiters ( 4th pick ) . . . solid starter/6th man type player - Jared Cunningham ( 24th pick ) . . . traded in a deal to obtain Tyler Zeller ( 17th pick ) . . who is a fringe rotational player these days - Bernard James ( 33rd pick ) . . traded to obtain Tyler Zeller - Jae Crowder ( 34th pick ) . . traded to obtain Tyler Zeller 2013 Draft - Anthony Bennett ( 1st pick ) . . . a very underachieving 8th man type rotational player - Sergey Karasev ( 19th pick ) . . . not in the NBA, overseas - Allen Crabbe ( 31st pick ) . . . traded to Portland for 2 future 2nd round picks - Carrick Felix ( 33rd pick ) . . . injury prone, D-League player So in 2 years, Cleveland has drafted or obtained through the draft . . - Waiters . . who is a solid young guard that is getting a lot of playing time - Zeller . . who got a lot of minutes last year ( due to the Varejao injury ), but is now a fringe rotational player - Bennett . . who has been a major disappointment so far, especially as a #1 pick - Karasev . . who isn't even in the NBA yet - Felix . . who looks to be like most 2nd rounders who never really makes it in the NBA. What grade would you give them?

And you can go the other way, and say that people's expectations for Ferry aren't nearly high enough.

He's averaging 19.9 ppg and 10.6 rebs on the season, while shooting 48% FG ... and has a 99 Defensive Rating.

LOL @ decent season.Since January 1st, he's averaging 23.5 ppg and 11.1 rebs while shooting almost 53% FG.He's also in the top 20 in DEFENSIVE RATING. So you're going to tell me that a guy who is a top 20 scorer .... Top 10 rebounder .... and in the Top 20 in Defensive rating .... isn't an ALL-STAR?That's hilarious to me.A Jefferson ( C ) ... Horford ( PF ) ... Iguodala ( SF ) front line would've been one of the best all around frontlines in the NBA.IF Ferry wasn't going to tank the season, that's what he should've created. Instead, we go right down the middle.Here's a question. With the "flexibility" we have, who do you think Ferry can bring to the Hawks next season?

Wow.I guess every team deserves at least a B then.

The problem with Hotlanta's "negativity" is that it is based on fact. That's why his statements sting so much at times. I used to feel the same way that some of you felt toward dude. But go back and look at some of the stuff he said. Like it or not, a lot of the stuff he's said . . was right. The problem with this franchise/GM right now, is that they're trying to straddle the fence. In a draft in which they could've obtained a franchise changing player, they opted to pass. But then when they had the cap space to bring on possibly 2 impact players, they didn't do that either. And until Ferry proves that he's willing ( or is able ) to flip a player for a tangible asset, he's going to get the type of criticism that Hotlanta is talking about. We'll see how long the Ferry honeymoon will last around here.

An F . . . no. A C- . . . yes. The truth is that with a team that was supposed to be in rebuilding mode, only Mike Scott is in the rotation. Even when Jenkins was healthy, he wasn't in the rotation. Dennis quickly played himself out of the rotation. And Bebe is overseas. Muscala, IMO, doesn't even count and may not ever be seen in a Hawks uniform. Imagine if Mike Scott hadn't flat out proven that he could ball? A lot of fans were ripping him as a "chucker" in Summer League and thought he may even not make the team when preseason came around. Now, he's arguably our 6th man and easily our best player off the bench. So in review: - Dennis got benched for Shelvin Mack, a guy on a minimum contract who is arguably 2X better than Dennis right now, and hasn't gotten his spot back since. - Jenkins, unless he was flat out given minutes to develop, would have a hard time seeing the floor at SG with Korver as the starter and Lou as the backup. - If Bebe were good enough to contribute right now, he'd be here - Muscala is a non-factor - Mike Scott has been balling So in 2 years . . . only 1 out of Ferry's 5 draft picks is contributing to the current team. And the reality is that unless someone is traded to allow the younger guys to develop vs NBA talent, we may be talking about the same thing about next year's draft picks.

Selig better than Stern? Is this sarcasm?

My picks . . . which have changed since last week G - Wall G - Lowry G - Stephenson F - Millsap F/C - Bosh C - Hibbert C - Jefferson I had Noah in as the last C in the East . . . until Jefferson basically destroyed him the other night. Both of those guys deserve to go. But Jefferson has been an absolute monster the last 10 games, to the tune of 27 pts - 12 rebs, on 53% FG. And he's doing it without their 2nd leading scorer, Kemba Walker. I had Joe Johnson in, instead of Millsap, because I was afraid that the national media would vote in JJ due to his hot streak and big games, and snub Millsap. But with JJ coasting the past few games, he may or may not get in now. Lance Stephenson, despite having huge numbers, seems to be everyone's favorite to make the reserves, because he plays defense and his offensive game has improved. If you have to decide between one Raptor, my choice is Lowry. The dude has been nothing short of excellent this season. I wouldn't be mad if DeRozan made it as well, but Lowry probably deserves it more. I think Millsap has definitely played his way into this game. He's kept the Hawks afloat and very competitive in the absence of Horford, and has become the undisputed leader of the team these days. If he didn't make it, it would truly be a shame.

So I guess I need to drop this subject. The consensus is either that 1) Korver is incapable to do any more than what he's doing now, which means he can't elevate his game or 2) Korver gets a complete pass from most of the fan base when he plays below standards, while the rest of the guys will get criticized when they play below standards. SMH . . . Jodie Meeks, a guy who is essentially a 3 point specialist ( 50% of his shots are 3s ) . . scored 24 points today on 8 - 13 FG . . 6 - 8 3FG. In January, with All-NBA Kobe Bryant not around, Jodie went from scoring 12.6 ppg in December, to a career high 18.3 ppg so far in January. He elevated his game and became a much more aggressive shooter/scorer.

So what does that mean Hot? Does that mean we made a mistake signing him up for 4 years at 6 mill a year? Because if we can't ask Korver to do a little more when people go down with injury, we're wasting money. I really don't see what the big deal is in asking Korver to do more. To be more aggressive. To work even harder to get shots up, whether they be 3s or long 2s.

You guys still don't get it. With Teague, people are literally begging him to be more aggressive. To do more on offense to help the team win. But when the same is asked from Korver, there is a problem? Being aggressive for Korver, means working even harder to get open, and getting up shots with any amount of daylight he has, because he is one of the better shooters on the team. The funny thing about JR Smith, is that he IS a 35% 3 point shooter. And what do we know about JR Smith? He's erratic as hell as a shooter. And most guys who shoot 35% from 3, fit that category. All I'm asking from Korver is to get up more shots. Instead of 8 shots a game, try to get up 11 or 12 shots a game. If his shooting has fallen off since Horford went down, he needs to get up more shots so that we can get adequate production out of him. Is that unreasonable to ask of him? Many people believe he's the 3rd best player on the team. And he's definitely the 3rd highest paid player on the team. So shouldn't one of the better players be asked to do more to help his team, if others go down?

That is great Ben. But if he's not getting those shots up ( and making them ), the eFG% really doesn't matter much. My point in this thread was that when people go down, or if people aren't producing, he needs to try to do more offensively to help the team. He's the shot maker on the team, so he needs to knock down shots. Last night's 3 - 4 from 3 performance and 12 points overall, is good when everyone is playing well. But when people aren't on their games, it may not be enough. His production is vital to the teams' success. Just in the last 14 games ( since Al has been down ), when Korver scores in double-figures, we're 6 - 0. When Korver doesn't score in double figures, we're 1 - 7 . . and that one win was saved by Pero's luck 3 in the Charlotte game. But people act like Korver can just coast along and not try to do more with Horford out? We need his production more than ever.

That's why if people want Dennis developed, Lou has to be moved ( prefereably for a SF ). We had to do it for Teague, when we decided not to re-sign Jamal Crawford. So we may have to get Lou out of here as well, to free up time for Dennis.

LOL @ cap conscious. Teams get in trouble for overpaying for mid level type players and signing them to longer than necessary contracts ( Marvin, Bibby, etc . . . ). Star players who may not play like superstars on a nightly basis, still give you valuable contributions. But when mid-level players aren't doing what they're supposed to do, or can't raise their games to the next level when people get hurt, that's when a team gets in trouble. The entire point of this thread was that if people were going to point out how others on the team needed to play better ( i.e. - Teague and Lou ), the same applied to Kyle Korver. But all throughout this thread, all you saw were excuses as to WHY he couldn't play better. Why he couldn't do this or that. My point was that he simply had to work harder than what he was doing, especially when people are out. I wasn't asking him to turn into Larry Bird. I was asking him to be more consistent and elevate his level of play. 9 ppg from a guy who is now the 3rd best player on the floor, isn't going to cut it. If people go down, Korver needs to step up . . by any means necessary. IF that meant finding spaces in the defense to receive the ball for long 2's instead of 3s, so be it. If that means busting his azz to get out in transition to make himself available for a transition 3, so be it. He came out very aggressive last night, taking 5 shots in the 1st quarter. Thankfully, the bench came in and blew the game open, so it wasn't necessary for Kyle to be overly aggressive and look for his shot. But in those nights in which we need offense, it's Kyle ( the 3rd highest paid player, and probably the 3rd best player on the team ), that needs to do more. DeMarre Carroll is stepping up more these days. All I asked was for Kyle to do the same. ************************ As for Joe Johnson, I've always stated that one of his major flaws as a player was that he didn't just let the ball fly at times. All of that dribbling to set up his shot had its good and bad momens. But the fact that he didn't catch and shoot the ball more, to get up more shots, was a major flaw in his game. I was always encouraging JJ to take even more shots than he was taking, instead of deferring to outside perimeter shots from Josh. You're seeing just how lethal the catch and shoot game can be from him, with what he's doing in Brooklyn on occasion. JJ was paid like a superstar, but he didn't have a superstar mentality offensively. Teams that REALLY try to win, aren't scared of the Luxury Tax. It is a FACT that the Hawks never went all out financially ( even for just one season ) to see if they could get to the next level. When the "Medium 3" ( JJ, Josh, Al ) were in their prime, ownership never added that extra piece, via the MLE, to that squad. Other playoff level squads had no problem doing it, even if it put them into Luxury Tax land for a year.

Dude . . forget those stats. What I want to see out of him, is what he did tonight. Come out firing and looking for his shot. He took 5 shots in that 1st quarter alone, making 2 threes. And had the rest of the team not stepped up and made shots, I would want him to look for his shot in the 2nd half as well. I just don't know why people make excuses for Kyle. IF others need to step up, he definitely does too. He, Lou, and Mike Scott set the tone tonight for the rest of the team. Then once Millsap got going, it was lights out. But there will be games in which Kyle will need to assert himself and really look for his shot, or work even harder to get shots.

Ummmm . . . but the Hawks are SUPPOSED to be right here. In a normal year, a 22 - 19 record would have us somewhere around 6th - 8th in the East. But in today's Bizzaro East, we're 3rd. I don't know why people are surprised that Millsap is playing like this. He's always been a decent player. What may be a little bit of a surprise, is that he's making 3s these days. He's already made more 3s this season, than he did in his entire career. A team with Horford - Millsap - Teague - Korver . . is supposed to be a .500 squad. I'll give us a B, because we could've assembled a better team. A B+ is kind of high though. Flipping Millsap for Smith is a good thing. It would've been better had we kept Ivan.

So it's Teague's fault that Kyle is also sucking right now? I just want to get clarification on where everyone stands on this. Kyle is getting a complete pass from most of the fan base. Teague is an easy target, because he's the PG. But Korver has turned into a less aggressive version of JR Smith, and he gets a pass? Just watch him tonight. Watch how he almost exclusively camps out by that 3 point line, instead of finding open spaces to receive and score the basketball.

Game . . . so what's the point in paying a guy 6+ million who is so one-dimensional, that one injury to another player can completely derail his game? I'm not saying create his own shot. I'm saying make himself more available for shots other than 3 pointers, to try to help the team. Can't have him playing the same role that he played with everybody healthy. When people are hurt, the remaining guys have to do more. If he can't do more, why make him part of our long term plans?

Here we go with the advanced stats to try to cover up for poor play. The problem . . . is that he's only getting up 8 shots a game, with 5 of those shots being 3s. So on average, he's going to make 1 or 2 threes a game. Since Horford has gone down, he's only made more than 2 threes in 3 games ( out of 13 total ). And while he's kept the streak alive, he's made only 1 three in 6 of those 13 games. So here is the breakdown in the past 13 games: More than 2 threes made ( 3 games ): 10 - 17 FG 2 threes made ( 4 games ): 8 - 22 FG 1 three made ( 6 games ): 6 - 26 FG That's what 35% three point shooters do . . they become highly erratic shooters. JR Smith is a 35% three point shooter. And no one would be cool at all with him and his streakyness. If he can be shut down this easily now, what does that say about the future when he slows even more? Or what happens when we have injuries next year? Just elevate your game Kyle. No more passiveness. Your team needs you right now. Earn that 6.7 million.

There was no other interested team at the TIME, that was interested in JJ. Once again, I've always said that when the Hawks wanted to shop JJ, the teams that would be calling, are the high dollar teams like the Lakers. And when the Lakers had all of their problems last season, that would've been the time to trade him. Even with Brooklyn, maybe you simply wait . . . then make a trade with them at a later date, for a better deal. Ferry's go was to get out from under JJ's contract as quickly as possible, and he did that. Dead roaches or feathers in return. It flies in the face of everything we thought would happen with this core, when most of us thought that we would always be able to trade our "core" for upgrades in talent or for better fitting players. Even as late as 2011, this was the belief. I want to see what Ferry does at the deadline this year. Does he trade a player or two for an upgrade in talent? Does he trade for a future asset? Or does he do nothing?

I'll be watching. And I definitely want him to have a good game tonight. It's the only way this team can stay competitive and win games. Because if he's not getting open, and he can't get his shots up, he's simply a clone of Marvin Williams, without the ability to rebound and defend multiple positions.