TheNorthCydeRises

It's not that I don't like him, I just think the value that people place in him is vastly overrated. How can he have high value, when he almost has to be in the perfect situation for his skill set to be put on display? The metrics say he has high value. The eye test says that the guy can be easily taken out of a game. So if you can easily be taken out of a game, do you really have high value? This is why he became expendable in Philly . . and in Utah . . and in Chicago.

Diesel, the "problem" with metrics, is that if someone can look at one stat that proves or disproves their opinion about a player, they'll tend to roll with that to make a TOTAL evaluation about a player. Whether it be PER, or eFG%, or TS% or Offensive/Defensive rating, or any other metric, if a stat can prove/disprove things about a player, "statheads" will roll with that. Kyle Korver, by all metrics, is one of the best offensive players in the league. He had an off the chart TS% of .637 an eFG% of .618. Kobe Bryant has a TS% of .570 and an eFG% of .504 So which player would you want to see most of your offense going through? If you simply looked at the stats, there's no question the answer to that would be Kyle Korver. But if you actually watched them play, it would hands down be Kobe Bryant. You can come to a lot of conclusions by looking at stats. But those stats also need to coincide with what you actually SEE that player do. I think that's what Magic and Wilborn really allude to. They trust their eyes more than they trust analytics.

There's no spin. The Kings were a whopping .003 percentage worse than the Jazz in 3 point percentage, who also took 103 less threes than the Kings. Cousins shoots 64% on 49% assisted baskets. Jefferson shoots 72% on 55% assisted. Cousins has a TS% of .524 . . . Jefferson a TS% of .522 But nobody wants to discuss the huge elephant in the room about Cousins, which is his turnovers. Nobody wants to discuss that it takes Cousins almost a full 3 more possessions to score 20 points, than it does to take Jefferson to score 19. Jefferson is also a superior post-up scorer, perimeter shooter, and pick and roll player. The stats CLEARLY show this. But I'm the one in "spin mode"? LOL You guys are citing 2 stats to validate your point. I've cited a plethora of stats to flat out disprove your claim that Cousins is better offensively or more efficient. But I'm the one in "spin mode"? LOL This is Demarcus in a nutshell And look how his coach and Tyreke respond to it after the game So in 3 years, Demarcus supposedly got Paul Westphal fired, and the Kings fire Keith Smart right after Memorial Day. And Smart was a coach who was supposedly getting through to Demarcus. Poor Keith. That dude is nothing more than the center version of Josh Smith, with better flashes of talent on offense, but an even more volatile personality that can be cancerous.

Points per play ( SynergySports ) Cousins - 0.88 . . ( ranked 260th ) Jefferson - 0.97 . . ( ranked 103rd ) Horford - 0.99 . . ( ranked 83rd ) The problem with citing how Total shot % ( or true shooting % ) shows "efficiency", is that it doesn't factor in turnovers. Cousins has a 52.4 TS% Jefferson has a 52.2 TS% But one guy is going to turn the ball over almost 3 times as much as the other guy. So who is really the more efficient offensive player? On a per 36 minute basis, Cousins is going to shoot the ball about 16 times, get to the line about 3.5 times, and turn it over 3.5 times . . . and score 20 points in the process. So he's going to "possess the ball about 23 times to score 20 points. 20/23 = 0.869 points per possession On a per 36 minute basis, Jefferson is going to shoot the ball 17 times, get to the line 1.5 times, and turn the ball over 1.5 times . . and score. So he's going to "possess" the ball about 20 times to score 19 points. 19/20 = 0.95 points per possession I know you are a strong believer in total shot percentage, but it doesn't tell a true story about efficiency, because it doesn't factor in turnovers. Even the very popular "points per shot" doesn't factor in turnovers. But when you talk about points per possession, you really get to see who can get points every time they try to score. If Demarcus has to touch the ball 3 more times just to get about the same number of points as Jefferson, there's no way he's more "efficient".

You keep saying what the Lakers might not do, but we all know that franchise is driven by winning . . . at all cost. They don't care about money like the cash strapped Hawks would. A swap of JJ and Gasol last year was a "whopping" 750K difference. This year, it would be a 2.2 million difference. The transition year for the Lakers was/is going to be in the summer of 2014 anyway, when Kobe's contract ran out, and the only person under contract "right now" is going to be Steve Nash . . a player I could see them dealing away sometime next season, if things go south without Kobe. So you're telling me that you haven't seen people on the board that would rather pay little for guys like Zaza and Korver, than to spend a decent amount on guys like Jefferson and even Iguodala? I don't think anybody is maxing either of those two guys out, but they will get a contract in the tens of millions per year. But 1/2 of the board wouldn't even want Jefferson on board, and instead would rather keep Zaza and Korver. As I said . . . there's no such thing as "halfway tanking". If we're going to tank, a guy like Horford should NOT be in the Hawks future. Trade him away too, and start from the very ground floor. Sign everybody's favorite role players, but don't sign a significant free agent, not even Teague.

You're half right. Most of them hate the Humphries deal. But they also hate the Wallace deal, and the fact that Reggie Evans starts, before they hate JJ. At least with JJ, they can literally say that when he was healthy, he was a great closer for them at the end of games, even won about 5 of them . JJ's mammoth contract is far less of a detriment, than the money they've spent on role players like Wallace, Humphries and, Teletovic. The Nets did what they had to do, to get out of the bottom. They constructed a team of 2nd tier guys that were hurt 1/2 the year, but realistically needed an entire season and some coaching stability, in order for them to gel. But they could've easily done what most of the people suggest the Hawks do . . . stack up their young talent. They could've had Derek Favors, maybe Enes Kanter ( if they drafted him ), would now have Damian Lilliard, and had the draft pick that they gave us. That's a nice selection of young talent, with Lilliard being the best of the bunch. But that's still a losing team, until we see if Lilliard can be "an engine". It's hard for me to fault what Brooklyn did, when they did exactly what the Hawks are doing now. While they did at least get Devin Harris and 2 low to mid 1st round picks for Jason Kidd, they basically gave Vince Carter and Richard Jefferson away for trash. Then they descended to the very bottom, got one top 3 lottery pick ( Favors ), but couldn't stand losing for 3.5 years before making the trade for Deron Williams. Then they still lost, and made the trade for JJ.

Pretty much. Good job.I personally would've loved to see what the Lakers would've done back in December, if we offered up a swap of Pau Gasol for JJ. He'd get to team up with his former coach and PG, while balancing the Laker attack. And Atlanta could've obtained a center who could not only score in the low post, but is an excellent passer.But nope. That wouldn't fit "Ferry's" vision. A 3 pronged frontline attack of very good players just wouldn't work, even if it would be something that the Heat would have trouble dealing with.Let's hope Ferry can convince the two stars to come to ATL. IF NOT, then the era of losing will descend on us rapidly, since even 2nd tier players aren't worth spending money on. People would rather spend on Zaza, Korver, and Devin, than to bring in actual talent.

Dolfan, my whole thing with JJ is that we got pennies on the dollar for him. We got an extra 1st round pick that people are now trying to deem as unimportant now, but acted like it was great just a few months back. If the Hawks aren't willing to use their significant cap space now, you have to wonder when they will ever use it. If we can't attract one of the two marquee names right now, and are not willing to bring in 2nd tier guys, what good was the cap space?My issue isn't that we traded JJ. My issue is that we threw him away.

LOL Sacramento shot 36.3% from 3 Utah shot 36.6% from 3 Sacramento made 102 more threes than Utah from 3. So which team had more outside shooting? Or is that .3% of Utah > than the 102 more threes Sacramento made? LOL @ Cousins himself going 4 - 22 from 3. Why is he shooting 3s?

Could their assist rates be affected by Cousin's inability to finish plays or make shots when they passed him the ball when open? How many assists did Josh Smith blow, because of his inability to make midrange jumpers or finish in the post? Demarcus turned the ball over a whopping 12.1% on Spot Up jumpers, either because he's trying to do some sort of pump fake and he travels or loses the ball, or he throws an errant pass into traffic. Tyreke shot 48% FG last season. Thomas shot 44% FG last season. Both above league averages for the position. Demarcus shot 47% at center, well below league average. But we're going to blame the guards for not throwing "good passes" to Demarcus, instead of Demarcus simply trying to do to much when he does get the ball? That's like blaming Lou Williams because Zaza couldn't finish a pass to him around the rim, or Josh couldn't make a wide open 17 foot jumper. Demarcus and the way he plays, is the reason for his inefficiency, just like it is for Josh Smith.

Try again man. Sacramento was 11th in the league in 3 point percentage, and 11th in total 3s made. Atlanta was better . . 7th in 3 point percentage and 5th in makes. Utah was slightly better in percentage ( 9th in makes ), but made 103 less 3s than Sacramento, ranking them 23rd in total 3s made. That still doesn't excuse the fact that Demarcus is nowhere near as efficient a player as Jefferson and Horford, nor is he as controlled of an offensive player than those two. The problem with Demarcus, is that he thinks he's an All-Star, even a superstar type of player. Honestly, a guy his size and ability should easily be one of the top 2 offensive centers in the league. But he's not even top 5. Horford and Jefferson are above him. So is Brook Lopez. So is Dwight Howard, even with his limited game. Bosh is above him. Pekovic is above him. Marc Gasol is above him. He, like Smith, tries to do too much. And it hurts his team when he does it.

Or let's be fair and say that Cousins has ALWAYS been a loose cannon type of player, even in college. I'll say the backcourt of Isaiah Thomas and Tyreke Evans is better than both Mo WIlliams and Gordon Heyward in Utah, and better than Jeff Teague and Devin Harris last year in Atlanta. Offense wasn't the problem for Sacramento last year. It was defense.

Not to mention that Jefferson shot a whopping 72% around the rim, with Mo Williams, Jamal Tinsley, and Earl Watson as his PGs.

He might shoot 64% around the rim, but here are his numbers via his top 3 shot types, according to SynergySports Post-Up . . ( 24.9% of shots ) . . 0.81 ppp . . ranked 90th . . 41.8% FG . . 9 "and 1's" . . 15.9% turnover rate Isolation . . ( 15% of shots ) . . . . 0.77 ppp . . ranked 114th . . 40.3% FG . . 5 "and 1's" . . 11.6% turnover rate P&R Man . . ( 14.5% of shots ) . . 0.92 ppp . . ranked 100th . . 45.5% FG . . 11 "and 1's" . . 12.5% turnover rate Spot Up . . . ( 11.2% of shots ) . . 0.71 ppp . . ranked 329th . . 36.2% FG . . 1 "and 1" . . . . 6.2% turnover rate Honestly, when you compare him to Al Jefferson or even Al Horford, its no comparison offensively. He's not a better post up player. He's not better in the Pick and Roll. And he's not a better Spot-Up shooter. He's a slightly better ISO player, and he gets more "and 1's" in the pick and roll. But he turns the ball over so much in Isolation, compared to Jefferson, that Jefferson actually scores a little more per play than Cousins does in ISO situations. And Demarcus is a TURNOVER MACHINE that plays even less defense than Jefferson. Saying that Demarcus has Smooveitis is a little kind. Demarcus is like Smith, Antoine Walker, and Rasheed Wallace combined, when it comes to attitude and belief in his ability.

Honestly, they potentially got 3, if you include James Harden. Getting 3 guys in 3 consecutive drafts who are All-NBA caliber players is a thing that I'll say has NEVER happened. They got a Hall of Fame guy, and two guys who are going to make multiple All-Star teams. And it will be interesting to see how long Westbrook will continue to want to stay in OKC, when they blame him for everything. His injury may have been the best thing to happen to him, because it proved just how important he is to that franchise. The mistake the Hawks made, outside of not drafting Paul or Deron in 2005, or even Rudy Gay in 2006, is that they didn't flip one of those frontline players in 2009. We had too many guys doing the same thing, instead of a high level specialist who can win games in other ways. The fact that we couldn't flip Marvin and then Smith for better players, or a better fitting player, is the most disappointing thing about potentially seeing both of them go. And the JJ trade was simply a debacle, if we fail to get Howard or Paul. At least OKC flipped Harden for some assets they could use. We didn't even try to flip one of our young players for parts that fit better.

The championship or bust mentality is nuts, especially when you've never even been to a Conference Final. The funny thing is that all of these people have so much confidence that Ferry can build a contender here, but don't trust that he can do it without going into the Lottery. They don't trust him to build that contender through free agency or via trades. They want him to do with with young talent and draft picks. If that's the case, we need to trade Al Horford for a high draft pick immediately after we fail to get Howard and Paul. Go ahead and call up Cleveland, Orlando, and Washington and tell them that they can have Al Horford in exchange for their draft pick this year and some of their young talent and/or journeyman players Orlando may not do it, but I'm sure we could get the attention of a team like Cleveland, if we gave them the prospect of adding an All-Star PF in exchange for the #1 pick, Tristian Thompson ( drafted 4th in 2011 ), Wayne Ellington ( drafted 28th in 2009 ), and their 2nd round pick in 2013 ( #31 pick ). The real sad thing is that 90% of these people who wouldn't mind going this route, will never spend a DIME at Philips Arena to see a team that they KNOW is going to lose 70% of the time at home. They say they have a better time rooting for a bad team that has the hope to be good ( because that's the only type of hope you can have ), than to root for a team that is good, but not good enough to beat the top teams in the conference, which limits their championship potential. There's no such thing as "halfway tanking". If you're going to tank, you may as well go all the way. Just support the team at the arena, when we're bad.

Or if you're not willing to give up one or more of your main guys. - The Clippers were willing to give up 2 of their main guys ( Eric Gordon & Chris Kaman ) + a 1st round pick, to get Chris Paul. - The Knicks gave up mid level talent + a few picks for Carmelo. - Boston flipped their young talent and future picks ( in which only Al Jefferson was any good ), for Garnett and Allen - Houston gave up an unproven talent + a pick + a mid-level sharpshooter ( Kevin Martin ), and got Harden. When Howard was first available, the Hawks didn't even think about offering a significant package for him. They didn't offer anything significant for Paul either. The minute we drafted Al Horford, a lot of people on this board, and NBA fans in general, felt that we'd have to part wtih one of our guys in order to be better . . . we never did it, and stayed the course. So here we are now. - potentially loads of cap space - two 1st round picks - a top 20 - 25 player And if we can't get Paul or Howard, we're supposed to just lay down and die, and play the Lottery? May as well trade Horford in the process, if you're going to do that. And once you do that, even if we win the lottery, there's no telling how long it will take that "engine" to mature enough as a player, to elevate us to a great level. And we'd have to either draft or add the correct pieces as that "engine" develops into an All-Star or superstar. We'll see what will happen in Cleveland. They have their potential engine in Kyrie. They have the #1 pick. And they have enough cap space to possibly make a run at at least one free agent. And they have Varejao coming back from injury. Let's see how quickly they get to playoff level, and then contender level.

Gotcha.

Yeah, this wasn't that hard to figure out.

I'm looking at the "real" side of it. We had that 1 - 10 pick for 4 straight years. Childress ( 6 ) Marvin ( 2 ) Shelden ( 5 ) Horford ( 3 ) The only guy who was worth a damn in the long run, was Horford. And even he isn't an "engine" . . more like the "car body" These are the guys we traded for Joe Johnson ( 10 ) Jamal Crawford ( 8 ) Mike Bibby ( 2 ) To our credit, we developed Josh Smith ( 17 ) to be one of the top 5 players in his draft class Getting that "engine" is difficult, no matter which what you go, but especially if you rely on the draft. Not only do you have to be in position to pick that player, you have to recognize that the player you may already have in that spot, may be less of a player that's on the board at that time. That's how a player like Stephen Curry ( who had question marks about if he was really a SG in a PG's body ), can fall BELOW Randy Foye, of all people. That's how Hasheem Thabeet can be picked ahead of James Harden, because Memphis already had a shooter/slasher in Rudy Gay, but needed a center that they THOUGHT Thabeet could be. And that's why the Cavs are potentially to mess their #1 draft pick up, if they pick a guy like Alex Len or Nerlens Noel over Ben McLemore. They can create enough room under the cap to get them a very good big man in free agency, and draft what could be the best player in the draft to play alongside Kyrie. But let's see if they'll go big instead in the draft. How do we get an "engine" via a trade? Do like everybody else has done it, in recent years. Just because the "engine" they obtained wasn't a HEMI, like LeBron or Durant, doesn't make the moves they made less significant for the potential success of the franchise.

I agree that Tyreke could be an asset. An asset that we could flip, if we added an Al Horford to a trade, to get a disgruntled top 10 player from somewhere else, and build around him. And Sacramento knows all about "fun and games" in the lottery. Sacramento 1st round picks since their last playoff appearance in 2006 2012 - Thomas Robinson ( 5th ) 2011 - Bismack Biyombo ( 7th ) . . . but traded as part of a deal to bring in Jimmer Fredette and John Salmons 2010 - Demarcus Cousins ( 5th) 2009 - Tyreke Evans ( 4th ) . . . Omri Casspi ( 23rd ) 2008 - Jason Thompson ( 12th ) 2007 - Spencer Hawes ( 10th ) 2006 - Quincy Douby ( 19th ) For every Oklahoma City draft success story, you have 2 or 3 of these.

The funny thing is, Tyreke . . . well, Tyreke's draft position ( 4th ) . . is exactly what people would love to tank for.

That's not true either. People (( bleep )) on the guys in the Joe Johnson era, but that was really a good nucleus of guys that needed either a true leader at PG, or a good enough center to take the pressure off of Horford or Smith. We developed JJ into a player that was at least the 3rd or 4th best SG in the league for about a 4 year stretch. We developed Smith into one of the most versatile PFs in the league, we just couldn't reign him in after Woody left. We developed Horford into a top 5 center, even though he was playing out of position. And before he melted down in the playoffs, people in this forum SWORE that Jeff Teague was trending to be the next Tony Parker. Where we failed at, is bringing in the right type of supporting players to help those guys. We were too scared to trade one of our top 3 players for a player who could be a better fit chemistry wise. We accumulated other young talent, but opted to play marginal vets who weren't going to get any better. And we had an ownership who, when we did construct a team that was a top 3 team in the East, never went all out to make us even better. So if you want to develop a player, develop Al Horford. Let's see what he can do in the next two years, to see just how good he can be. He showed flashes of being a very good player last year. Let's give him more responsibility and see if he can be a true go-to guy and a true leader. Smith doesn't have the offensive skills to do it on an efficient level. Horford does. So if we fail at getting Paul and/or Howard, let's build this thing around Horford.

These other teams aren't going anywhere, anytime soon . . but they all have flaws. - Chicago gets Derrick Rose back, who may or may not get back to where he was. - Indiana has a young nucleus of players and will get Granger back, but they have no bench. - New York still has Carmelo, who may or may not change his style of play for the better - And Brooklyn has their "Medium 3", who still have to find their identity as a team But only one of these teams won over 50 games, the Knicks ( 54 ). So like I said, we may never construct a team that can overtake Miami in the near future, but we can definitely construct a team that can leapfrog those 4 teams, and put us in position to battle Miami in a conference final. Once we get there, let the chips fall where they may.

We were never the frontrunner to get Dwight or Chris in the first place. What Hawks fans need to do, is just chill and let everything play itself out. All of our talk should be about the draft anyway, not things concerning Dwight and Chris. The other thing is there are still plenty of very good players out on the market outside of the top 2 guys. Don't let people convince you that we'd be better off if we just go to the bottom of the league and blow everything up. We arguably have a top 20 player in Al Horford right now, so if we don't land the big stars, everything we should be doing right now should be to maximize HIS star potential. The thing that others on this forum aren't telling you, is that a guy like Lebron James is in his prime. As long as he's in this conference, he's going to be the guy that the Hawks will have to go through. So what do we do? Wait 5, 6, 7 years for his decline, and then hope to beat the Heat, or whatever team he's on? Or do we construct the best team possible to battle him while a guy like Al Horford is in his prime? At the very least, the Hawks can construct a team RIGHT NOW that can challenge for the 2nd seed in the East, and only be a sprained ankle or a muscle pull away from beating Miami in the coming seasons. This "doom and gloom" that is around some of these fans, is ridiculous. We have potentially 35 million in cap space, two 1st round draft picks, a top 20 player in the league to build around, and probably the best assistant coach in the entire league to work with next year. If the Hawks can't construct at least a top 3 team NEXT YEAR with these assets, it's never going to happen anyway.