TheNorthCydeRises

Actually 19 and 10, if you're rounding up. What kills us, is that he's our PF . . and we need our PF to shoot a higher percentage than what he shoots, especially when you have a team full of guards and jumpshooters. He basically had to take 17 shots to score 19 points last year. And when you add in the trips to the line and the turnovers, his points per possession was less than 0.9 ( actually 0.88 ) This year, that same points per possession number is currently at 0.84 ( according to SynergySports ). That ranks 288th in the NBA, despite the current 17 and 9 he's putting up right now. Current Offensive point per possession stats for the Hawks ( main players ) - Korver: 1.17 . . 9th in the NBA ( mainly because 75% of his shots come via spot ups, off screens, and kills it from 3 ) - Horford: 0.97 . . 97th - Harris: 0.95 . . 126th - Teague: 0.90 . . 197th - Ivan: 0.88 . . . 233rd - Zaza: 0.86 . . . 257th ( which is why he's expendable too ) - Smith: 0.84 . . 288th Recently, Josh, Al, and Teague . . and Korver . . have been playing great offensive basketball. But the reason why we've been losing is because we either can rebound the basketball, or we can't stop a decent SG or SF. In other words . . defense and rebounding.

Diesel . . that's a horrific trade for the Kings. That team is already full of guards and wings. Teletovic, at best, will be Steve Novak. Lou isn't a true PG, and would be fighting for playing time with Thomas and Aaron Brooks. Then when you bring in MarShon, they're full of guards. That would be a nice summer league rec team for the Kings, but not an NBA team. I will agree that Cousins is more negative than positive. He's the center version of Josh Smith actually. He thinks he's a much better player than what he really is. He also falls in love with a shot he can't consistently make . . . the 19 foot jumper. His post game is also weak ( weaker than Al Horford's actually ). The hope for Demarcus is that if he can actually refine his post game, the guy could be a dangerous player. And unlike Josh Smith, there is still time for him to turn things around and become much better than what he is. Bringing Demarcus in is definitely worth the risk, but he also needs to be surrounded by some strong leaders on and off the court, along with having a strong head coach. If I'm the Kings, there's no way I'm trading Cousins . . . right now.

Josh was smart if he turned that down. He and his agent know that Josh is at least going to get a 60 mill contract from someone this summer. You may see some of these younger players who are about to come off of their rookie contract, sign an extension. But when a player has a chance to really make that big money contract in his 3rd deal as an unrestricted FA, he's not going to take that extension before he hits free agency.

Pretty good digital editing right there. They probably shot that commercial when Minnesota came to ATL for the MLK Day game. That's why Rubio is in his road jersey. All of those other players were digitally added in, with maybe the exception of Jrue Holliday.

Josh Smith = Monta Ellis Monta was a tremendous player for Golden State. But it came a time when the powers that be had to do what was best for the team. So they traded Monta for Bogut, and bet that their young guard ( Klay Thompson ) and their key free agent backup PG ( Jarrett Jack ) could not only replace what Monta brought to the table, but make the Warriors a more balanced team. When it comes to Josh, the question is this: Can we get a player, or a combination of players, who can replace what he brings to the table, and eliminate some of the bad things he brought to the table? And if he's gone, will other players ( namely Teague and Horford ) elevate their games to a higher level? If the answers to those questions are YES, then you pretty much have to deal him.

Yeah . . . I guess the stars have to align perfectly for them to play like a Big 3 on a nightly basis. I'm definitely not mad at any of those guys tonight. I'm just glad that Smith's mistakes at the end were made up by clutch plays by him. It would've been a shame to lose this game after the overall game he had tonight.

It'll become a problem depending on whose Bird Rights we want to hang onto when they hit the free agent market. Smith's cap hold is over 16 million Devin's is almost 13 million Korver's is 9.5 million Zaza's is almost 8 million Teague's is a little over 6 million If we don't renounce about 30 million of these cap holds, we can't make a play for a major free agent. Devin will almost surely be renounced. If you hold onto Smith's Bird Rights ( keeping his 16+ mill cap hold ) you'll probably only have room to choose between Korver, Teague, or Zaza. And even if you choose Smith + Korver or Zaza, we're going to be somewhere between 24 - 26 million in cap holds. Combine that with the 20+ million we have in guaranteed contracts, and we wouldn't have enough cap room to make a play for a Chris Paul or Dwight Howard. ( 20 mill guaranteed + 24 - 26 mill cap holds = 44 - 46 mill = 12 - 14 mill in cap room ) If it's Smith + Teague, that's a little over 22 million in cap holds, putting us around 15 million below the cap. Even that may not be enough to fit in Dwight. Even if we did fit in Dwight, we'll have to put together the rest of the team with vet minimum guys . . . and may not have a good PG in the process. So to make a play for Dwight straight up, EVERYBODY except Smith would have to be renounced ( unless the Salary Cap went up above 60 million ). So yeah . . . the cap holds definitely come into play in relation to our own players and in relation to signing big time free agents.

A blistering 7 - 9 FG on his 16+ feet jumpers tonight. Had the huge 3 toward the end of the game. Yeah, he may have tried to give the game away on the next possession, but he redeemed himself by knocking down those 2 FTs. If anything, Josh probably drove his trade value skyward with this performance tonight, especially in Cuban's eyes. Good win for the Hawks tonight. And a standing ovation for Josh.

All I do is speak the truth. Even last night, JJ and Lopez were the only guys doing anything in that game. Deron flat out disappeared in the 3rd quarter on both ends of the floor. And as soon as JJ took his rest in the 3rd quarter, the game got out of hand for Brooklyn and they never could get back in the game. I defend JJ because you're a known JJ hater. So I simply balance out what you say. Even you cited earlier in the thread how the Nets were significantly better with JJ on the court, than off the court. The funny thing about JJ's departure is that it's not the people who liked JJ who constantly bring his name up. It's guys like you who do it. You're the one who is tying the success of the Hawks and comparing it with the Nets. Neither team is a championship level team who can beat Miami. As I said before . . moving JJ for contract reasons was justified. But we're not a better team overall on the court without the dude. Those are just the facts.

Josh has said that he thinks he's worth the MAX. Would Josh feel "insulted" if he received less than a MAX offer from the Hawks. Would a 5 - 75 mill deal from the Hawks be a "slap in the face" to Josh? He'd make less money in those first 4 years in ATL, than he would somewhere else, but he'd make it up in the final year. The team that has Mayo now, definitely has the advantage to re-sign him, even without the Bird Rights. Mayo may be comfortable in the city ( or on the team ) he's currently playing on. Mayo coming to a playoff level team may entice he and Marion to stick around for a while. It would be totally different if we were out of the playoff hunt. Also remember . . these are the Hawks. Despite Danny Ferry making big moves last summer with the roster shakeup, the fact remains that big time free agents have traditionally NOT come to play for the Hawks. We'll see if Ferry changes that this summer. "Cap Space" is the new center. Remember, that's why we have the cap space . . . to add high quality free agents to the squad. Horford replaces Josh at PF, not SF and replaces just about all of his production. Marion strengthens the SF position, whether he starts or comes off the bench. He's also a guy you can play in a smallish lineup at PF. And "Cap Space" hopefully plays at a high enough level to have us not miss Josh one bit on the frontline. Funny how you don't mention how getting rid of a player with a 94 offensive rating, and replacing him with a player with a 109 offensive rating, might help the offense. No more untimely turnovers and 3 pointers. No more lack of offensive rebounding. No more of the PF acting like the PG, being all in the video . . all on the record . . . dancing. Teague can do very little to control the team, if the PF in question gets a rebound and charges up the court himself, with the PG standing right beside him. Eliminate that element from the team, and Teague gets more control over the offense by default. Whew . . . good thing we're not a "bad team" . . just a struggling one, with the erratic play of the PF being one of the reasons why we're struggling lately. So Shawn shouldn't have much of an issue staying in ATL. He and Mayo could get us right back on track. But if the worst case scenario is trading Josh for 2 free agents, that's better than being locked into Josh for 5 years at the Max . . or close to the Max . . when you know that he's not going to change as a player. And if he's not going to change as a player, we need to bring in people who can play the right way to help the team. If Marion and Mayo are all of a sudden thrown on a playoff team, instead of a team that virtually has no shot of making the playoffs out West, maybe . . just maybe . . they might like it here and want to stay a few years. 2 quality players for the same price as a MAXED out Josh Smith, is a good deal in my opinion. Hawks are 8 - 13 in our last 21 games, with Boston and Milwaukee breathing down our necks for our 6th seed. Schedule will continue to be tougher from here on out. The trade is useless only to the lovers of Smith who don't want to see him go anywhere, despite the way he plays. The Joe Johnson era is over. But the same problems with this team persists. That means it's time to end the era of the team's 2nd most influential player, add a different mix of players, and see if things can change around here.

LOL @ Jay Bilas. He was completely wrong about Josh Smith. Then he was completely wrong about Marvin. Vitale cited the right thing, with our roster duplication ( which also included Boris Diaw at the time ). With all of those forwards, Chris Paul should've been the choice. Even Stuart Scott asked the right question, when he asked Marvin how would he transform his game to be a 22 point - 10 rebound a game type player, after deferring to others in college. When you consider that later that summer the Hawks traded for JJ, it is disappointing what could've been for this team. PG - Paul G - Johnson F - Smith PF - Harrington C - Zaza The other thing about that draft, is that we picked the wrong backup PG in that 2nd round, when we chose Salim over the young high school kid Monta Ellis. I was praying that Nate Robinson would fall to us at that 31st pick. Had we'd taken Paul, we may have went with a big in the 2nd round. Maybe Brandon Bass? Bench G - Lue F - Childress F - Bass G - Ivey C - Batista Funny thing is that in the 2006 draft, if we were still a lottery team, we probably still take Shelden Williams, because that was obviously our biggest need as a team back then. And we don't even have a 1st round pick in 2008, without getting extremely lucky. So that means no Al Horford. Still . . a trio of Paul - JJ - Smith would've been fun to watch for a while.

LOL . . other than a 3rd team All-NBA appearance and multiple Player of the Week and Month appearances . . no. SMH . . . we're 8 - 13 in our last 21 games . . you know that, right?

Effect on the future - No Josh Smith signed to a MAX contract - OJ Mayo possibly signed for up to 4 years . . during his prime - Al Horford getting a chance to play PF almost full time . . during his prime - Teague having complete control of the team ( if he's re-signed ) . . during his prime - Marion acting as a "stop gap" SF for just 1.5 years, then having his contract off the books in 2014 ( flexibility ) Of course the move wouldn't move us into championship level. But it would no doubt keep us at playoff level, while having more flexibility in the future.

Non flexibility? What about signing Josh to a Max contract? 30 mill for 3 years > 5 years for 94 million And when you want to get out from under a contract, the 3 - 30 is a lot easier to get out from under, than the 5 - 94

It's funny . . . that's all I was asking for Joe Johnson at the time he was traded. Brooks is their version of Jeff Teague in his first 2 years in Atlanta. The guy has great offensive talent, but can't play a lick of defense. Because of that, neither Avery nor PJ will play the kid. With Deron not right, and Gerald Wallace not being used to the best of his ability as a transition scorer, the Nets desperately need to obtain a guy who can be a 6th man type of scorer. LOL . . Brooks could be that, but they won't unleash him for some reason. People are scared of Wallace's 10 million for the next 3 years, but contracts like that can always be traded in that final year, or the year before. Wallace is still a very good on the ball defender and he would be useful on a team that played a lot faster.

They would be the same people back in October, who would've been totally against trading for James Harden, if the Hawks had a chance to get him. Some of them simply do not watch enough of the league. Put OJ and Marion on this team right now, and the Hawks would make a run at a top 4 seed. And once the playoff came around, all bets would be off with this team. Re-sign Josh, and we know what our destiny would be. And that's not a total indictment on Josh. It's just that as long as he's on this team, the Hawks will continue to be "out of balance" offensively. Don;t look now, but the Celtics ( who were left for dead 2 weeks ago when they left Atlanta ) are now breathing right down our necks. I think it's fitting that we play the Mavs tomorrow night. We'll see if people will change their tune about Mayo and Marion, or if they will be validated in their belief to be against those 2 players.

Mayo's 2012 - 13 numbers 18 ppg 3.8 rebs 4.5 asst 1.3 stls 2.8 to's 47% FG 43% 3FG 85% FT 58.5% TS% He can create his own shot He can pass pretty good for a 2 guard His defense is suspect, but not a complete liability He's been the 4th best SG in the NBA this year behind Harden, Kobe, and Wade. And he's only 25 YEARS OLD. LOL @ not that good. Heck, he'd instantly become the 2nd best player on the Hawks. Tell me what "star" we're going to get that is not only better than Mayo now, but can be in the next 2 - 3 years? You can obtain Mayo, and still have enough cap space to go after a pipe dream player like Chris Paul or Dwight Howard. But if you don't get him, you can at least target Mayo and lock him up for the next 4 years, while he's in his prime. Some of you really need to start watching more of the league. http-~~-//www.youtube.com/watch?v=vV6DCFAfuDo

LOL . . he accepted a crap deal for Joe Johnson. All we got out of that deal is "hope and flexibility". That deal means nothing if we can't use that money to get an elite player in the next 2 years. EDIT: My bad . . . he did get Kyle Korver out of that deal ( via the trade exception ). And since Kyle is more popular than JJ, and a better standstill shooter, that makes the JJ trade worthwhile, regardless of what we'll do in the future.

You say that like JJ had/has a problem with Josh. JJ never had a problem with Josh while he was here. Matter of fact, he passed the ball to Josh more than any Hawk on the team.

The sad thing is that Shawn Marion plays EXACTLY the way most people want Josh Smith to play. Shawn just went for 26 points and 11 rebounds last night vs Golden State. But people quickly dismiss Marion because he's 34. Forget that he was a BETTER all-around athlete than Josh in his prime, and is still an elite level athlete. Forget that a lot of guys in their mid-30s are still playing much better than a lot of these kids. Just like you said, the combination of Marion + Mayo would make dealing Josh a no-brainer. Per 36 minute numbers: Smith vs Marion POINTS: Smith - 17.0 ( on 15.8 shots ) . . . . . Marion 14.0 - ( on 12.2 shots ) REBOUNDS: Smith - 8.6 ( 2.0 offensive ) . . . . . Marion - 10 ( 2.7 offensive ) ASSISTS: Smith - 4 . . . . . Marion - 3 STEALS: Smith - 1.3 . . . . . Marion - 1.1 BLOCKS: Smith - 2.2 . . . . . Marion - 0.8 TURNOVERS: Smith - 3.1 . . . . . Marion - 1.8 FG%: Smith - 45.1. . . . . Marion - 50.2 3FG%: Smith - 32.4 ( on 2.3 att ) . . . . . Marion - 32.6 ( on 1.2 att ) FT%: Smith - 50.8 ( on 4 att ) . . . . . Marion - 82.8 ( on 1.6 att ) TS%: Smith - 48.5 . . . . . Marion - 54.2 Usage% Smith - 26.7 . . . . . Marion - 18.5 Off Rating: Smith - 94 . . . . . Marion - 109 Def Rating: Smith - 100 . . . . . Marion - 105 PER: Smith - 17.2 . . . . . Marion - 17.5 The "old man" is putting up overall comparable numbers that the young Josh Smith is. And Josh is supposedly at his peak as a player. And in key areas, he's even better. What most people continue to fail to understand is that Josh Smith's replacement at PF is AL HORFORD. And Al's replacement at center is Zaza, who always seems to play better as a starter, than as a reserve. Adding Marion to the mix simply strengthens the SF spot and gives Teague much more control over the offense. Then you add a scorer like OJ Mayo to the mix, and the trade is a no-brainer. I guess people are wanting 5 years worth of assets in a Josh Smith trade. Well we're not going to get that. So we need to get whatever is the best deal out there . . . if we trade him at all.

Shawn Marion + OJ Mayo for Josh Smith . . or . . Shawn Marion + Vince Carter + 1st round pick for Josh Smith Been saying this for about 3 weeks now. Make that deal, and we instantly solve our SF dilemma. PG - Teague G - Mayo F - Marion PF - Horford C - Zaza or PG - Teague G - Harris F - Marion PF - Horford C - Zaza Korver becomes the 6th man, a role he probably should be playing right now. Or you keep Korver in the starting lineup, and Marion becomes the 6th man. In the 2nd scenario, Carter becomes a savvy veteran G/F who we could bring off the bench to give the 2nd unit even more firepower. With that move, we'd be on the hook for 9.3 million with Marion in 2013 - 14, and own the Bird Rights to Mayo. Marion's contract next season would be the perfect trade chip to get someone we wanted. Even with Vince Carter, VC would currently be better than any SF we have on the squad right now, and his contract expires at the end of the season.

Correct. But Joe wasn't the starting PF either.3 years ago, when JJ and Jamal were firing away via a ton of ISOs, our "bigs " were in position to rebound their misses. Jj and Jamal also didn't turn the ball over much. This limited wasted possessions because of a turnover and gave us 2nd possessions.If Josh wants to play the 2006 role of Joe Johnson, that's fine. But at that point, the coach must surround him with people who are highly capable of rebounding his misses. But when he and Horford are taking the same types of shots our guards are taking, there is no one to get rebounds.

Thought so When Josh gets 10+ rebounds, the Hawks are 14 - 7 When Josh scores 20+ points, the Hawks are 7 - 7 (( We're also 12 - 3 when Josh dishes out 6 or more assists, so last night was a rarity when Josh is passing like that )) Get a clue Larry Drew ( and Josh Smith ), and read my sig from the great Pat Summitt OFFENSE sells TICKETS . . . DEFENSE wins GAMES . . . REBOUNDING wins CHAMPIONSHIPS !!!

I didn't forget anything. I acknowledged in a previous post that the JJ move from a financial standpoint was justified. My purpose for posting those numbers were to illustrate that overall, there is basically no difference between the two teams from an efficiency standpoint. But to further drive that point home, let's look at 2 teams last night. This is what the Hawks did last night in key offensive categories. 100 points - 94.3 pace - 47.3 FG% . . ( on 74 shots ) - 54.2 3FG% . . ( on 24 shots ) - 56.1 eFG% - 73.9 FT% . . ( on 23 FT attempts ) - 30 assists - 5 offensive rebs . . ( out of 33 total rebounds ) - 17 turnovers Total Offensive Rating: 106.1 Now let's look at another team from last night. This team also reached the 100 point mark 100 points - 86.2 pace - 46.9 FG% . . ( on 81 shots ) - 30.8 3FG% . . ( on 26 shots ) - 51.9 eFG% - 80.0 FT% . . ( on 20 FT attempts ) - 19 assists - 10 offensive rebs . . ( out of 42 total rebounds ) - 8 turnovers If you use the "eye test", you'd think that the Hawks were more efficient than the team above. However, you would be wrong. Total Offensive Rating: 116.0 The team above are the NY Knicks. The Mike Woodson coached team that relies on isolation play from their superstar and their gunning 6th man. But . . but . . this can't be. The Hawks had way more assists and shot much better from the field. The ball movement was great because we had 30 assists. There's no way the Knicks should've had a better offensive rating than the Hawks. Well . . they did. And the reason why they did is because they grabbed 5 more offensive rebounds than we did and turned the ball over 9 less times. Despite the horrible night from 3 point range, they were still able to shoot almost the same percentage from the field as the Hawks. When I look at our game last night, the first thing that jumps out at me, is that despite the great shooting night we had, we ONLY scored 100 points. And we only got to that mark because of a late dunk by Josh in the last seconds. So how do you only score 100 points when you shoot 47% FG . . make 13 threes . . and make 17 free throws? By only getting up 74 shots and making just 35 FGs. When you only make 35 shots in a game, you better be making a lot of 3s, or getting and making a lot more free throws. The Hawks did neither last night. And the reason why they only got up 74 shots, is because they turned it over 17 times and only got 5 offensive rebounds. Points breakdown 2 point: 22 - 50 . . . 44% . . . 44 points 3 point: 13 - 24 . . . 54.3% . . . 39 points free throw: 17 - 23 . . 73.9% . . . 17 points Hawks scored 7 points when they got a 2nd possession due to an offensive rebound. Conversely, the Hornets last night scored 18 points when they got a 2nd ( or 3rd ) possession due to an offensive rebound There's the 11 point difference in the game folks. Offensive rebounding not only gives you a chance to score again, it also eats a little more time off the clock, even if it's just for a few more seconds. So instead of being one and done because of a missed 20 foot jumpshot, you get that 2nd opportunity to score. @ Dolfan . . . if you think this offense is going to be successful in the playoffs, think again. Larry Drew has continuously tried to insert jumpshooters and scorers into a game to bail him out, when the Hawks couldn't defend the other team and fell behind in points. Our bigs do not "bang" or fight for points on the inside. Both of them stay on the outside 60% of the time, and fire away those midrange jumpers. If and when they miss, there is no one in the paint to rebound the basketball. That means we're going to be a 1 possession offense the vast majority of the time. At that point, all it takes is for a 6 minute cold stretch to see things completely unravel. The team isn't strong enough defensively to withstand a drought like that, nor do they play a style of ball that can get them to the FT line or get offensive rebounds when the jumper isn't falling. And that's exactly what happened last night. Just to end this . . . a team that plays the style that we play, has to not only take care of the ball, we must be able to get 2nd chances at possessions or get to the FT line. We've been losing for the past month, because we haven't did this on a consistent basis. And it will continue to happen as long as Drew prefers to play "fake shooters" over guys who can rebound. Note: Josh Smith statistically had a great offensive game. We'll take 23 points - 6 rebounds - 8 assists and 47% FG from Josh all day. So why was his Offensive Rating "only" 103? - only 2 FT attempts ( thank God he made both FTs ) - 4 turnovers - extremely high usage 29.7% - 0 offensive rebounds Without even looking at it, I would almost bet money that the Hawks are far more successful when Josh grabs 10+ rebounds, than when he scores 20+ points. And the reason for that is we desperately need him rebounding, more than we need him scoring. If we can get both, that's great. But if we had to choose one or the other, it would have to be the rebounding.

If that's the case, do a Josh for Z-Bo trade straight up. That would essentially solve our offensive rebounding issues, as well as our low post scoring issue. PG - Teague G - Harris ( when healthy ) F - Korver PF - Randolph C - Horford Randolph would represent a big chunk of the cap gone, but we'd still be far enough under it to add one more significant player. LOL . . if the Griz traded Z-Bo for Smith, they'd have a heart attack. It would give them something that they say they want though . . . a player who is willing to run. And Smith's efforts on defense would be appreciated there. They just wouldn't like him jacking up those jumpers. PG - Conley G - Allen F- Prince PF - Smith C - Gasol They may would want Morrow in that trade as well, so give them Morrow.