TheNorthCydeRises

Contradictory statements. We won playoff games because of JJ and Jamal . . . going ISO. Team ball is great. It's just with the current construction of players, team ball isn't necessarily playing to our strengths. So we're back to square 1. Because Monta isn't a true PG, people don't want him . . despite him being an upgrade over Jamal offensive wise. I don't know man. I guess it's status quo for us next season. Let's hope Teague turns into Rondo. If he doesn't, I guess we'll just let another season go by without making a move. By the way, Monta was BK's guy, but he settled for Salim.

That should read . . . despite Teague NOT being a true PG that makes people better.

So who do we trade Josh for? Lebron? Dirk? In other words . . what is the ideal, realistic trade we could do involving Smith? As far as Monta goes, he had his most efficient year as a player, ironically, when he got someone else beside him who could pick up the scoring slack. I still think it's funny that people have confidence in Teague, despite him being a true PG, but don't trust Monta for the same reason.

Nobody is comparing KG to JJ as players. We're comparing their situations. The fact is that KG, as great as he was, never made it out of the 1st round, until he got help in the form of Cassell ( a guy who had one two titles with Houston, and was a win away from helping lead MILWAUKEE to the NBA Finals vs the Lakers in 2001 ) and Spreewell ( a former #1 option in G St and #2 option with the Knicks ). LOL . . and Big Dog Glenn Robinson ( of all people ) was the 1a option on that Milwaukee team, with Ray Allen being 1b and Cassell being 1c. It's amazing that team almost made the NBA Finals. Can't speak for Diesel, but I think we're both saying that if JJ had at the very least an equal offensive star playing alongside him, along with a dependable 3rd guy, the Hawks may reach that next level. Some people doubt that, so that's cool. But it still doesn't take away the fact that the best player JJ has played with, is Josh Smith.

Like I said coachx. If people don't believe the current mix can win, why not change up the mix? With Jamal Crawford seemingly out of the picture, we'll have to replace him with a shot creator anyway, or hope Teague can play at the level he did during the playoffs. Our frontline is undersized and we have very few shot creators on the team. I just don't know if we'd ever find a player as good as Monta in the near future. PG - Monta G - Johnson F - Marvin F - Horford C - Zaza PG - Teague G - Hinrich That would be your new 7. So we'd have to fill the rest of the roster with serviceable, but cheap bigs. Basically the same as last year. It's just now, we'd be guard heavy, and Marvin may have to really step up as a hybrid SF/PF. At the very least, I think that team could duplicate the 44 wins we had this year, along with possibly getting to the 2nd round and losing. But if we found a decent big that stepped up to do the dirty work, it might make us a better team all around. So the priority in free agency would be to find a serviceable C or rugged PF who could at the very least rebound the basketball. ( shrugging shoulders ) If we can't find that big that everyone wants, why not go the opposite way?

If Zaza could defensive rebound better, I would definitely do the move. But he's just not there yet. OK . . so Horford is out of the picture. Smith would have to be the one that is shipped out then. Just have to replace him with a rebounding big man who can defend a little.

Don . . I don't necessarily agree that the situation is that critical in ATL ( at least not yet ). And I agree that we don't need a billion threads on this subject. But I do agree with you from a mindset standpoint. It's funny how people don't think that the current team can win as currently constructed, but aren't willing to drastically change up the mix. In essence, they're co-signing the ASG's "no risk taking" stance. I guess if the talk was Monta for JJ, people would be all for it, so that we could keep Smith and Horford together. To give up Smith or Horford, I would have to at the very least have a rebounding big to replace one of them. Without that, I don't know if I would risk the move. If I knew I could secure a PF like Kris Humphries ( 13.5 rebs per 36 minutes in New Jersey last year ) or a C like Samuel Dalembert ( 12.2 rebs and 2.2 blks per 36 minutes last year in Sacramento ) then I would make the move. It's all about balance folks. Plus, from a PR standpoint, if we were to bring in Humphries, Kim Kardashian and all of her ATL girlfriends may show up to more Hawk games. LOL . . gotta think of this from all angles.

I wonder why people are so enamored with a "motion offense" that didn't work in ATL. Matter of fact, which of the final 4 teams in the NBA playoffs this year ran a "motion offense"? You team Monta with JJ, and you now have one of the NBA's best backcourts that people can't constantly throw a double team at. There's your 1a and 1b that people have been talking about. And we've been covering for weak defending PGs for years on this team. I'm sure we could cover for Monta's defense. Then again, Monta has never played alongside a 2 that defends as well as JJ either. So who knows if his defense wouldn't improve just from that aspect alone. Monta has more trouble defending bigger 2s, than he does defending quick 1s. But bringing him in would mean that Teague would be the reserve or an afterthought. And the sentiment amongst most fans is that Teague is the next big thing . . based off of the 6 games he played vs Chicago. I don't know. Monta has an all-star caliber game that just hasn't been recognized yet. And I don't know which I would rather give up . . Josh Smith or Al Horford? If a move like that was made, it would be paramount to bring in a center that could at the very least rebound at a high rate. A guy like Dalembert would have to be a priority then. ASG would never do a move like that though. Sund thinks "we're close" and he hasn't taken a major risk ( other than signing JJ to that mega contract . . . and even that wasn't a major risk ) since he's been in ATL

KIRK HINRICH Offensively, your midrange and long range shooting game is average to above average. But you only shot 53% at the rim while in Atlanta. So maybe you need to get a little stronger and finish in traffic better. Overall as a PG, if Teague isn't ready, we need you to be a better playmaker as well. ZAZA PACHULIA You miss too many layups too. You go up strong, but out of control at times. Gotta make those layups. So practice on your power layup. And if you could defensive rebound more consistently, maybe it's YOU that could be the elusive starting center that we need here. Let the master of defensive rebounding teach you a thing or two. Great old school clip here.

JEFF TEAGUE We all liked what you did in the Chicago series. Now it's time to prove that you can be a complete PG. You MUST learn how to lead a team. And the key element of this, is becoming a MASTER of the pick and roll and pick and pop in the halfcourt set. I know Drew told you to work on your 3-ball, but you becoming a pick and roll/pop master is much more important. And please, know the plays so that your teammates will have complete trust in you. JAMAL CRAWFORD If you come back to the team, you already know what it is. It's all about your defense.

AL HORFORD I've already talked about what you need to do in the other thread. It's all about becoming the best post player you possibly can. Learn from Hakeem Olajuwon, in that aspect. But the other thing that you need to work on, is your post defense. And it wouldn't hurt to become a little better of a shot blocker as well. MARVIN WILLIAMS We need you to be a specialty player on both offense and defense. As an offensive player, it's all about developing your jumper as much as you can. To be a viable player on this team, you MUST be able to make the open 15 - 25 footer. This MUST HAPPEN for you. As a defensive player, it's about trying to become the best man defender on the team. That means that you guard JJ or Jamal in practice, whenever possible.

I was thinking maybe a trade for Stephen Jackson. He likes it in Charlotte though, so they may not part with him.

JOE JOHNSON Become a more efficient "triple threat" offensive player in the half court . . . by using the Jab Step, Crossover, and Shot Fake to set up your shot. It will also help you draw more fouls if you get players up in the air for the shot fake, and you jump into him ( ala Paul Pierce ). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nChsuzllPhs http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4g8KjMb-G8 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJbNiXVfOJU JOSH SMITH Become a better post player as a hybrid PF. We need you within 15 feet of the basket a lot more, not 20 feet away, waiting on the pass to shoot the open jumper. Develop your post game as that hybrid PF, and your offensive arsenal will take you to All-Star level. Use your speed to your advantage. The other thing you must do more is BOX OUT. Matter of fact, that should be your top priority next year . . boxing out. If you listen to this guy, you could average 11 rebounds a game next year, with your superior athletic ability.

I agree with Diesel. Minnesota is the better fit. With his track record of building the Hawks up, the T-Wolves have the type of young squad that was somewhat similar to ours. Minnesota just needs to throw the right amount of money at a borderline star player, and get him to come to Minnesota. If they can't do it that way, trade for that player.

This should keep some of you hardcore b-ball heads occupied for several hours. If you want to learn about how basketball is played, these series of videos are a great tutorial to give you a glimpse inside what wins in the NBA. LARRY DREW Your motion offense was a good idea, but wasn't exactly a good fit for this team. We didn't have guys who could consistently make a shot, nor did our players move within the offense like they should've. So you may want a modification of that. But the real issue with this team is defense. If you are going to continue to play offensive minded players, and expect them to defend at a high level, they must be able to understand team defensive concepts. People like Hubie Brown, so I'll just let him explain it all. Damn . . I can listen to this all day. What a great teacher. Looks like the way the forum is set up, that I can't post all of these vids at once. So I'll leak them out a little at a time.

Matter of fact . . . send the whole dang team to Houston to work with Hakeem. If Dwight Howard and Kobe have worked with him, then send JJ, Horford, Smith, Zaza and Marvin.

Mr Horford . . you want to become a legit post player? Go learn how to do this from the master. Mr. Smith, this would be nice to add to your offensive arsenal as well.

The 34 year old Sam Cassell shot 49% FG - 40% 3FG and averaged 20 points and 7 assists the year Minnesota went to the WCF. He had one of his best years of his career that year. Cassell, even more than KG, was the leader of that squad that kept them steady and had the ability to make big shot after big shot. Since people love using PER and win score/48, Cassell's PER that year was a whopping 22.8 ( ridiculous for a PG, seeing that PER usually favors the high scoring, high rebounding PF types ) and had a win score per 48 minute number of .205. Both numbers trump the best seasons of Horford, Smith, AND Joe Johnson. Cassell scored 20 points or more in 41 of the 81 games he played in that year. That made him a legit #2 option that had the ability to even be a #1 option at times. Neither Horford nor Smith have ever been able to score like that. He played so well, that he earned 2nd team All-NBA. Spreewell was a former #1 then a #2 option type scorer who could get his own shot. On that Minnesota team, he was the ideal #3 option with his ability to score the basketball from the SF position. He was essentially their Jamal Crawford, a guy who was streaky, but could explode and have a big game every now and then. 34 games of 20 points or more and 6 games of 30 points or more for Spree that year. Both Hassell and Ervin Johnson were defensive guys who could limit what their man did at their respective position. Johnson was essentially a better version of Jason Collins, while Hassell always drew the assignment against the best perimeter scoring wing. Those two moves kept KG from playing center all the time, and kept Spree from having to guard the top offensive scorer at times, enabling both guys to have the energy to still play defense, but really concentrate on offense. Their starting 5 trumps any starting 5 that JJ has had in Atlanta. They were the perfect balance of elite offensive scoring and defensive prowess. You couldn't double KG in the post, because Cassell would kill you with the 3 ball and Spree was still a decent slasher to the hole. And that's not even including the high percentage 3 point shooters they could bring off the bench in the form of Fred Hoiberg, Wally Szczerbiak, and Troy Hudson, who all shot above 40% from 3 that year. Olowokandi was sorry for a former #1 pick, but serviceable as a stop gap center. Gary Trent ( the Shaq of the MAC ) was at least seviceable as a backup PF that played limited minutes ( posted a PER of 12.9 that season, which was better than Josh Powell, Shelden Williams, Joe Smith, or any other reserve PF we've had here ). Even Mark Madsen's goofy self brought something to the table as an energy guy that could play PF and a little C. LOL @ him and that "forearm in the back" defense that he used to play all the time. 2003 - 04 Timberwolves - KG ( the superstar and MVP of the league ) - Cassell ( the all-star PG who had a career year ) - Spreewell ( the slasher/shooter who was a legit #3, sometimes #2 option ) - Hassell and Johnson ( the defensive specialists in the starting lineup ) - Hoiberg, Wally, and Hudson ( the 3 point specialists off the bench ) - Olowokandi and Madsen ( the "dirty work" bigs that helped keep KG fresh) - Trent ( the reserve PF was capable of having a "nice" game 1/3rd of the time ) That team was beautifully constructed with the addition of Cassell, Spreewell, Hassell, Johnson, Hoiberg and Madsen to that team in that year. Chemistry, ability and balance > ability, low IQ, and no balance

Afraid to trade him? . No. Not if him leaving balances the team out. His hometown status should NOT be the reason to keep him. Nor should his potential that he hasn't fully realized yet ( or has he )? You don't trade him for garbage though. Any trade involving him should be for a legit player ( or combination of players ). The bottom line with Josh is that he'll never be a good shooter for an entire season . . nor will he'll be able to create his jumpshot off the dribble. So the only thing left for him to do is to develop a post game. If he refuses to work on doing that full time, then he'll never be much better than what he is right now ( which is a good, borderline all-star player ). No one on this team is a box office attraction ( at home or on the road ). I'll tell you what though ( and I said this 4 years ago ). The role that Josh may have to assume on this team, is a role similar to Lamar Odom's. Bring him off the bench and let him be the super sub 6th man type that plays 30 - 34 minutes a game. If we can find that mythical, starter caliber center, we can start the center + Horford at PF, and bring Josh off the bench to play both PF and SF ( but mainly PF ). At the end of games, play him at whatever position will help us the most.

It's not that I don't want to touch JJ and his salary. It's just that when other teams were faced with a similar type of situation, they didn't trade their best or highest paid offensive player when they brought in a better star. When Boston made their move, they didn't trade away Pierce in the Kevin Garnett deal. Miami didn't get rid of Wade when they brought in Lebron and Bosh. When LA and Miami made the Shaq trade, Miami didn't part with Dwyane Wade then either. But say we trade JJ for a superstar caliber player . . . say we trade him for Chris Paul. A Paul - Smith - Horford trio looks great. But in the playoffs, does that team get us to that next level? In my eyes, the only way that trio gets us to the next level, is if Smith or Horford become solid enough offensively to be a somewhat dependable #2 guy. You'd have to think that Paul would make both guys better. But in crunch time, could either guy create a shot and bail the team out if the ball was out of Paul's hands? In the playoffs, that's what it seems as if these games come down to. Who can bail his team out with a tough shot. A JJ trade more than likely does not bring a superstar to ATL. It'll bring maybe a complimentary player and/or a very large Traded Player Exception though. To me . . that means that we're about to take some steps back and rebuild. If that's what people want . . fine. Just understand that stars and superstars run this league. If we don't get back an equal or better star than JJ back in a trade for him, we're not going to progress as a team ( unless a guy like Teague can become a legit #2 scorer ). Without the ability to create their own shot, I just don't see Horford or Smith raising their game to a level that they can be a legit #2.

I remember Diesel saying 4 years ago that Marvin was Derrick McKey . . . and people bit his head off for that comment. PER 36 MINUTE career numbers DERRICK MCKEY 13.6 ppg 5.8 rebs 3.0 asst 1.4 stls 0.8 blks .486% FG .316% 3FG .779% FT MARVIN WILLIAMS 13.6 ppg 6.2 rebs 1.6 asst 0.9 stls 0.5 blks .452% FG .311% 3FG .808% FT

But that still isn't going to solve the problem here. You can bring Kobe or Lebron on here, and teams would still double and even triple the hell out of Kobe or Lebron, and force the other guys to beat them. As was shown when Kobe and Lebron didn't have dependable people around, you still need people around them to step up, in order for the team to win. Kobe was ready to leave LA, before he got Pau Gasol. But if JJ was playing alongside one of those guys, now teams can't afford to double a Kobe or Lebron, and leave JJ open. It's a reason why those two guys had trouble elevating their teams to NBA Finals level when they didn't have a dependable #2 guy playing alongside them. The problem with this team is we don't have a dependable low post scorer who can give us timely offense in and around the paint. If you have a star guard, you'd ideally want a star foward or center to form that inside-outside offensive attack. A team has to have that 2nd guy who can create his own shot, and probably a 3rd guy who can be dependable enough to knock down the open jumper. When the Hawks are good, it's usually JJ + some other guy getting it done. In the Orlando series and in Game 1 of the Chicago series, it was JJ and Jamal. In Game 4 of the Chicago series, it was JJ and Smith. But now, you want to trade the guy who could be the legit #2 to bring in a #1 . . . but still have #3's around that #1. It's essentially what doomed Chicago. Magic is talking about it right now. Other guys have to step up to help the star. He's specifically talking about the starters on Dallas helping Dirk out, so that the burden won't be all on the bench ( Terry and Barea ). Dirk dropped 34 tonight, but the team only scores 86 points and they lose. Why? Because the #2 guy ( Terry ) helped a little, but had an off game, and no one else stepped up as a #3 guy.

People are so focused on on picking players 30 and under, that they're skipping over some DAMN good early 30s players. This is a very good pick for the team you have currently constructed. At 33, you'd have to figure that he could at least give your team a quality starter, then role player off the bench, until age 37 - 38.

This post is amazing. In your attempt to discredit JJ as much as you can, you not only have the Bulls beating us in 5 games ( instead of 6 ) you completely skip over Game 1, and list Game 2 as game 1. And how nice of you to do that . . because Game 1 was JJ's BEST GAME OF THE PLAYOFFS . . and arguably the 2nd best scoring game by ANY Atlanta Hawk on the road during the playoffs in franchise history ( Nique's 47 vs Boston being the other game ). How in the hell do you skip or "forget" THIS GAME? {\ LOL . . it was he and Teague that played well in Game 2 ( going a combined 14 - 29 FG ) . . but Josh and Al went a combined 7 - 26 FG. JJ had 16 points - 5 rebs - 5 steals in Game 2. Had our frontline showed up, maybe we could've gone to ATL up 2 - 0, instead of tied 1 - 1. The fact is that JJ would have a better chance of showing up on a nightly basis, if there was someone else who could consistently show up to keep him from facing double teams every night. Dirk even faces fewer double teams than JJ, because the people around Dirk can shoot. LOL . . even Wade and Lebron see less double teams than JJ. But people are mad at JJ because he can't consistently put up 20 ppg vs double teams? JJ isn't a superstar. But he's one of the only players on this team who can occasionally raise his game to a superstar level. Trade him away, and don't get a similar or greater star in return, and the Hawks are dead in the water come playoff time.

Excellent post.