TheNorthCydeRises

That is nowhere close to the best bench in the NBA. That's not even a top 10 bench. People can't dog Marvin in one breath, and act like he'll be some great player off the bench in another breath.

The only way this could've been better, is if Diesel had live actors play out the roles "Lean on Me" + Joe Clark + Atlanta Hawks = Winning The funniest ish I've read in a while. You win the Emmy for Best Screenplay.

He's been talking about this all year though. This isn't the first time that he's said this. The Hawks need size, but he needs to play bigger. With the way this team is constructed, we need our most talented players on the floor as much as possible at the positions in which they're most effective. Like I said in a previous post, Horford played PF more than he played C in the playoffs . . and he was flat out horrible. He was horrible because unlike the C's that play him, the PF's don't give him all of that space for him to shoot his jumper. And his post game wasn't nearly good enough to score against guys his size. I would've never imagined that he'd struggle that much playing PF. The difference is that when Smith is asked a question about playing the 3 or the 4, Smith just says . . It doesn't matter, I just play. But for Al, it definitely DOES matter. If he can't play the 5 effectively against the better centers in the league, and has trouble offensively against PFs in the playoffs, what should the Hawks do? I used to think it was a no brainer that Smith should be traded before Horford, But now, I don't know. It was always assumed by me ( and other Hawk fans ) that if Horford played PF more, that he could average close to 20 ppg - 10 rebs. But without a viable post game, his inability to draw fouls and his inability to create his own shot, I doubt that very seriously. People say JJ isn't a leader and isn't a legit #1 option that can't take us to a title People say they can't trust Smith because he has a low BBIQ and kills you with his decision making. So does that mean that we can ( or should ) trust Horford? If so . . . why?

The question is . . how do we get the type of center that we need, without making a trade for somebody or going over the Luxury Tax? Some scrub vet minimum guy is not the answer. We need to acquire a starting quality center. If we can't get that, Al has to play more like a center physically. If he doesn't want to do that, the only legit choice we have is to trade for one. Which means either Smith or Horford has to be traded. But Al can make all of this moot, if he played like a true 5, with added physical toughness. It's the same situation that Monta Ellis and Steph Curry are in, with the Warriors. Ellis is a smallish 2. Curry is a 1. You honestly need both on the court to win games. But you'll lose games because Ellis isn't physical enough to guard decent to all-star 2s. So they have to make a decision for the betterment of their team. Ellis or Curry have to go, and a good 2 have to take one of their places. The same may be true for the Hawks concerning Horford and Smith.

I disagree with the post as well. Shaq is not the example to use for Smith playing like he should play . . . Shawn Kemp is. If Smith attacked the paint and the rim like Kemp, he'd be a perennial All-Star and the undisputed best player on the team. Shaq's entire skill set is using his power around the rim to be effective. Smith's post game is nowhere good enough to expect him to play around the rim like Shaq did. But Shawn Kemp? There's the guy he should emulate. A guy that had a decent, but not great post game. A guy that played from the top of the key in, with emphasis on scoring points in the paint. A guy that always ran the floor, filling the wings to receive the pass back for a dunk. A guy that would attack the rim with one or two dribbles from 16 feet away, instead of settling for the open 18 foot jumper. I've said it for years "I want to see more Shawn Kemp, and less Rasheed Wallace, out of Josh Smith." Unfortunately, the Rasheed version of Smith was in full effect this season.

I agree. Woody was definitely a better coach than Bob Weiss. Weiss still had the superstar version of Dominique ( despite losing him for 1/2 a season ) and a very good Kevin Willis on the team, plus Doc Rivers and then Mookie Blaylock. Weiss was as mediocre and inconsequential of a coach as you would ever see. People hated Woody, but Woody got the most out of the guys he coached. He turned a "4th option" into a 4 time All-Star . . a guy who couldn't shoot at SG and SF, into a versatile small PF who was a borderline All-Star . . and a PF out of college into an All-Star at C. Woody >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Weiss

Eddie . . what Drew's offense did was try to make everyone on the team a threat offensively, by moving the ball and setting people up for open shots. Remember? People around here were coining the new offense . . "The Pentagle" ( a play on Phil Jackson's Triangle Offense that he learned from Tex Winter ) In theory, whomever had the open shot, whether it be JJ or Smith or even Damien, should take the shot. But when most of the team can't shoot, it's not a good offense to run. So not only did the new offense take shots away from the two guys who led us in scoring in 09 - 10, it encouraged other guys to shoot jumpshots. We saw Smith almost completely kick the habit of chucking 3s, to him taking 100+ this year. We saw Al take more jumpers too, even though he made them at a great rate. But we also saw them shoot less around the rim. Significantly less. The previous season, we were one of the best offensive rebounding teams in the league, because it was mainly our perimeter guys taking jumpers. This season, when our bigs started jacking up jumpers, our offensive rebounding rate plummeted. In essence, Drew's offense got this team all out of balance. It took shots away from our most versatile scorers, while it also took our bigs away from the rim, contributing to a decrease in offensive rebounds for possible put backs and shots in general around the rim. So yeah Eddie . . it might sound ridiculous, but the fact is that the offense also had JJ shooting a lot of 3s ( in the beginning ), instead of working people to set up his floater ( one of the highest percentage shots he takes ). Our bigs need to play in the paint more, and let our guards take care of the perimeter. The fact that Al's shots from the perimeter increased, while his shots around the rim decreased, is NOT a good thing for the Hawks.. It's no coincidence that we went from having a top 5 offensive rating as an offense . . to falling around 20th as an offense. It's also no coincidence that the only games we won during the playoffs, were games in which JJ and Jamal were balling.

So instead of looking what his man specifically does on the floor, you'd rather look at how we function with JJ on the floor compared to off, as a true indicator of his defensive impact. Well let me ask you this. If JJ's opponent counterpart numbers indicate that the player opposite of JJ isn't being very productive offensively . . but the team as a whole are posting worse defensive numbers with JJ in the game . doesn't that mean that someone else is lighting up the Hawks with JJ in the game, than JJ having a negative impact defensively. Case in point . . Orlando. Jason Richardson is Orlando's 2nd leading scorer. But when he played the Hawks, he was rendered useless ( with JJ guarding him most of the time ). That trend coninued in the playoffs. Meanwhile, a guy like Dwight Howard is destroying us. So should JJ get blamed for a post player destroying us, or get credit for us stopping him? Either way, JJ's defensive impact on that particular game can't be measured by what the post player does. But it can be measured by what his man does specifically. If you want more blocks and steals . . fine. I guess that makes a guy like Monta Ellis a great defensive player, even though he can't stop anybody.

And before anyone says . "no northcyde . . Marvin was our most disappointing player". No he wasn't. Expectations for Marvin have fallen so much that we're shocked when he plays well. We're not shocked when he doesn't show up. What was shocking . was to see Horford play PF almost 60% of the postseason, and play absolutely horribly offensively. Then we see guys like Noah, Gibson, Boozer, and Asik have their way with him on the boards. LOL . . I guess Al had to take a shot at JJ, because JJ said we needed more "blue collar" guys on the team. Maybe both will listen to each other and upgrade their games in that area. Now all we need are the Smith and Jamal interviews.

Jody . . your ( and others ) characterization of what is "me ball" doesn't make sense. To me . . "me ball" would mean that he looks to shoot every time he gets the ball . . like how Jamal does. But even Jamal ( sometimes ) does that out of necessity because no one else on the floor can score. It's one thing to get mad at JJ for not playing fast enough. But he's not being selfish at all by doing all of that pounding. He's either trying to size his own man up, or trying to draw the double team to pass to open guys for shots. It's hilarious that people fault JJ for passing it to an open jumpshooter with 5 seconds on the shot clock. That dude is usually wide open. So who's fault is it if the guy can't make the open jumper? Bibby used to make a living off of JJ passing him the ball in those situations. Marvin used to 3 years ago. But now, very few people on this team can consistently make the open shot. And people wonder why Jamal and JJ wanted to look for their own shot at times? JJ dropped 34 on the Bulls in Game 1, basically playing the same way he always had. It was Jamal and JJ who won the Orlando series. But let's keep it real. You know why Al wants the ball to move more? It's because he has big time difficulty creating and making his own shot. He's highly dependent on others creating for him. That's why he had difficulty in the postseason. It's disapointing that Horford didn't mention his post game FIRST that he needed to work on. But that's how he views himself. He wants to be a jumpshooting PF/C, instead of a banging PF/C. And if he doesn't want to become that banger "blue collar" guy, then this team will always be views as "soft" . . as well as Mr. Horford. Highly disappointed in Al and that interview. LOL @ he did a good job in the postseason, when he was by far our most disappointing player.

Once again . . tell me where JJ took more shots this season, than he did last season? People want JJ to be a superstar, but only take 11 shots a game. LOL. That dude sacrificed his shots so that Al and Smith could shoot more . . and it resulted in 9 less wins during the regular season. Jamal did the same thing, If Al wants more touches, tell him to become a more versatile player, instead of a Mehmet Okur clone.

I'll back out of this thread and continue to let you guys pick without posting my opinions. Didn't mean to ruffle any feathers here. This draft may resemble what a consolidated NBA would look like, if they eliminated a few of these teams.There can be some very interesting teams constructed here. So continue to do so.I will be interested to see who Diesel picks as his final 2 guys, because he has a shot to construct a powerhouse squad ( on paper, of course ).

If Z-Bo could play with Marc Gasol . . he'd definitely be able to play with Dwight Howard. Both guys would play well with each other. Which guy do you double? Both guys are offensive rebounding MONSTERS, even when they don't have the ball.Diesel was probably salivating when he saw Z-Bo fall to him. That was a no brainer pick.

Ummm . . they got to the NBA Finals in their 2nd year together. Injuries completely derailed Sampson's career after that season. Had he stayed healthy, they would've challenged the Lakers at least for the next 5 years. They had their way with the Lakers in 86 when they reached the Finals. They had no answer for the Twin Towers.

Interesting to see how you guys think, when you're constructing a team. You can tell who values what. In my opinion, Diesel's team is already unstoppable with that frontline of Howard and Z-Bo. That's almost unfair right there. LOL . . so when Z-Bo gets the ball down on the block, and he misses a shot, you'll have Howard coming from the weak side to gobble up the rebound? LOL . . and vice versa? That's the frontcourt equivalent of Lebron and Wade. Then he adds his gunner from the outside in Eric Gordon . . damn.Interesting thought processes going on here. Some of you guys had a chance to pair some real good combinations together, but missed with your 2nd pick.

I think when people say that we need a center, part of that is the increased rebounding and inside scoring that a decent or good center will bring to the table. The ASG wastes money on these scrub centers who can only do one thing ( sometimes not even well ). Even with a guy like Reggie Evans, who is a tremendous rebounder . . he's an equally horrific offensive player. A dude like that would definitely help us though. People have kicked around a name like Kris Humphries as well. But to get Kris, the ASG may have to come off of a 3yr - 10 mill to 12 mill a year contract. But both of those guys are PFs. Smith's best position is PF. Horford wants to be a PF and not bang with centers. So those are the REAL ISSUES with the "Hawks need a center" talk. We got a PF that swears he's a SF . . and a C who wants to play PF. To me, the guy to get is Samuel Dalembert. He's a center . . he rebounds . . he can score around the rim . . and he can block shots. But he WILL cost a little more money than the ASG will pay for. Because to obtain a player like him, we may have to pay him at least MLE money. That guy made 12.2 mill last year, so he's not going to be had for the league minimum. Somebody will pay for that dude's services. So now it's back to trying to add one of those PFs, with Horford still having to play center. Al is talking about expanding his range. He doesn't need to expand his range, he needs to develop a post game and become a legit post player . . not the next Andrei Bargnani.

And that's the other thing about this topic. How can fans expect JJ to play at a superstar level, if they cringe everytime he tries to do his "own thing"? All superstar, and even star players, do their "own thing" at some point in the game. But everytime JJ does it, especially in the 4th quarters of games, people have a fit. People talk about JJ not involving others, yet, he's almost guaranteed to get you 4 assists a game from the SG spot . . and lead the team in assists 70% of the time. And his assist totals would be higher if he had shooters around him. Bibby and Marvin were the beneficiaries of JJ's passes out of double teams for years . . until they started missing wide open shots. Teams know they can double JJ and shut us down, because the rest of the team can't shoot. This forces us to play JJ and Jamal at the same time, with Jamal sometimes at PG, despite the dropoff we'll have with him playing the point. JJ no doubt has to elevate his game, in order for the Hawks to go further. When he's done that in the past, we're a tough team to beat. He has to play at a high level on a more consistent basis. But it would be nice if he had guys around him that when he passed the ball to them, could knock down shots. But like RedDawg said . . maybe the switch should be JJ receiving passes at the end of the shot clock from a pass from someone else, than JJ passing to one of the Hawks as the shot clock runs down. That means that we're going to have to obtain either another scorer who can get his own shot . . or Teague will have to emerge as not only a scoring PG, but a playmaking PG who can see JJ when he's open on the outside. Either way the talent ( or shooting ) on this team has to improve. Drew's "spread the wealth" offense was NOT what was best for this team. People were shooting the ball that didn't need to be shooting it at times. Meanwhile, our main scorers got even less shots. That's not a recipe for winning. Drew needs to fix that going into next year. Play Teague alongside JJ next year, and see if that gives us the type of dynamic in the backcourt that will make the team better overall offensively. Let Teague slash, shoot floaters and pass . . while JJ catches and shoot, with having the option to go ISO when facing single coverage.

Wow . . you guys have a GLARING OMISSION off this list. A perennial all-star.

Sturt . . the sad thing about this thread is that of the games that we DID win in the playoffs, JJ was either THE REASON or the 2nd top reason why. And people saw that, but rip into the guy because he couldn't do it for 12 games, instead of 6. The fact is that if we had guys on JJ's level, especially if they're guys who can get their own shot . . with one of those being a big . . we probaly beat Chicago. Because even if JJ was off, you'd have 2 other guys who could take the scoring lead. People talk about KG in Boston, but the better comparison may be to talk about KG in Minnesota. KG in Munnesota was a very good player who couldn't get it done in the playoffs. 7 consecutive 1st round losses for him. And their fans talked about how he couldn't make game winning shots. But lo and behold, as soon as he got complimentarty guys who had the ability to take over a game and make big shots, keeping KG from doing everything, the T-Wolves damn near made the NBA Finals. ( Talking about Cassell and Spreewell, of course ). JJ and Jamal, when playing together, are essentially 1a and 1b. So imagine if we had a 1c that did most of his scoring down low? At that point, we may only need 2 of the 3 to be real good on any given night, to win a game. If all 3 were good, we'd be tough to beat. We were 6 - 0 when JJ got 20 pts or more . . 5 - 1 when Crawford got 20 pts or more. If we had a 3rd guy that could get us 20 pts down low on ant given night, that would be the type of asset needed to get the Hawks to the next level.

JJ's rep as a good defender is justified, because just because you do one area subpar on defense, doesn't mean that you're a poor or average defender. JJ, when guarding his man straight up, hardly ever gets lit up ( unless he's going against an elite scorer, and even JJ wins some of those battles ). If anything, JJ coasts on defense at times. But when he locks in, he's a very good man to man defender.

The funny thing is . . . JJ has never played with a pass first PG in Atlanta who could set him up for good shots . . nor has he had the luxury of playing with a guy who could consistently score and draw a double team in the low post. You just need multiple elements to win a title.

I think it was Diesel that brought up the Paul Pierce example, which was a guy who was much maligned by the fan base as a guy who couldn't get the Celtics even to playoff level once Antoine Walker left. But once he got legit help in the form of KG and Allen, he all of a sudden became a more efficient, even iconic player for the Celtics. Because he didn't have to do it every night, he sacrificed some of his shots, but made the most of the shots he took. JJ can't win it as him being the sole go-to guy . . no. Could he be that 1a, if he were paired with someone like a Chris Paul ( who would lead the team in assists, but not necessarily in points )? I think so, if the 3rd guy was a scoring big. ( JJ - Paul - Horford or Smith . . . possibly ) Could he and Stoudemire get it done, alternating on who is "the guy" . . possibly, if the 3rd guy was a guard or a scoring/defensive small forward. ( JJ - Iggy - Amare . . . possibly ) One thing is for sure, a guy like Derrick Rose isn't winning anything, unless he gets a legit #2 or a 1a to play alongside him. Rose - JJ - Noah could get to the Finals.

NO . . the negative is that the backcourt ( when they played together this year ), only really worked one time. As a whole, the lineup was terrible, in the short time they played with each other ( a little over 30 minutes ) In fact, out of the top 25 lineups we put out on the floor this season, the Teague - Hinrich - Johnson - Smith - Horford lineup was the 2nd WORST lineup we could've put on the floor. The Teague - Hinrich backcourt is simply too small to get it done. They may be active and might get a few more steals, but the position defense just wasn't there this season when they did play with each other. And I have no idea why you keep saying ( or inferring ) that JJ is a below average defender. He's an above average defender at the 2. Hell, he's even an above average defender at the 3. Very few guys light him up on a regular basis. JJ's weakness on defense is fighting through screens. But when it comes to guarding his man straight up, the opposing SG has a difficult time scoring over him. Ask Jason Richardson. Ask Luou Deng on those times in which he and JJ were pitted against each other. JJ posts some of the best Opponent Counterpart 48-Minute Production numbers in the league. When he plays SG, the opposing SG only shot an eFG% of 46% . . scored 17.1 ppg per-48 minutes ( if adjusted for per-36 minutes, that would be 12.8 ppg ) . . and posted a PER of 11.6. Just for comparison, a guy that people cite as a better defender ( Ronnie Brewer ), has an Opponent Counterpart Per-48 Minute Production numbers of 46% eFG . . 19.3 points ( 14.5 ppg per-36 minutes ) . . and a PER of 12.7 The idea that JJ is some poor or even an defender is simply false. If anything, JJ possesses the ability to ratchet up his defense to borderline elite level, but he tends to coast at times during games ( but not in the 4th quarter ). But it's open season on Mr. Johnson these days, so it is to be expected. And the Bibby - Crawford - JJ unit was one of our best offensive units last year, and came out on the positive end on most nights ( even if they had trouble stopping people ). And the same thing was true in 09 - 10. That was our offensive unit, with 2 guards who could created their own shot, and a PG that could spot up from 3 and knock down shots. But when Bibby started missing shots, that hurt big time.

LOL . . I'd kill for the 2007 - 08 version of Marvin that averaged 15 ppg, could make 45% of his midrange jumpers, and got to the line almost 18% of the time. AT least that guy was a productive starter. The Marvin of today has literally let Flip, then Jamal take half of his shots and about 1/4 of his minutes over the past 3 seasons. Flip and Jamal simply balled, while Marvin regressed. So it's Marvin's fault that the coach has to bench him in the 4th quarters of games, because he isn't producing.

But like people said, it wasn't until he got clowned in the national media, that he showed up. Smith plays hard, he just doesn't play smart. There's no way you can call out Al and JJ, without calling out Smith. He shot 40% FG ( as a PF ) - 13% 3FG - and 60% FT. Smith showed up in a few games, just like everyone else did on the team. No one showed up on a consistent basis.