TheNorthCydeRises

They won't do it though, because Kirk's expiring contract is more valuable to them to be able to stay under the Luxury Tax, than trading him to bring in players ( who may have to be paid for x number of years ).

Diesel . . you can't overlook that Hinrich was straight garbage for about 6 weeks before the playoffs. He didn't play well at all coming down the stretch in the regular season. Like everyone else, he turned it up during the playoffs. So while I may slightly agree that we can't trust Teague, it's not like we can trust Hinrich either. I say you have to go with the younger guy as the starter, and let Hinrich come off the bench to stabilize the 2nd unit. If you want to finish games with Hinrich on the floor instead of Teague, then fine. But if Teague is even remotely ready, he should start over Hinrich.

Great post Diesel. People forget that the starters for the All-Star game is basically a vote for the most popular players, not the most deserving players. KG essentially took Smith's All-Star spot back in 09 - 10, despite KG being hurt.

Let's see if I can respond to C to C's points without writing novels for each point. This will be hard. ** Smith wasn't lowballed . . JJ was offered the MAX 4 year extension . . and Horford wasn't lowballed. It's just that in the NBA, and in pro sports in general, other teams may desperately want your services. So a fair market value type deal, becomes a highly inflated deal. In essence, this is what happened to the Hawks with JJ last summer. He probably should've been paid 5 yrs - 80 mill . . or 6 yrs - 95 mill. But because NY and CHI were probably willing to give JJ a MAX deal themselves, they had to decide to either let him go, or retain him. If they keep him, they're almost a lock to make the playoffs for the next few years. IF they let him go, the future becomes uncertain AND JJ goes to an Eastern Conference team that could leap ahead of us. So the ASG did what they thought they had to do. ** Jamal is important to the ASG. But the minute they offered JJ that contract and he signed it, extending Jamal wasn't a top priority. The ASG is still intent on operating the team under the Luxury Tax, and they now have 64 mill committed to 7 players. Without JJ and that contract, that number would be significantly lower, thus, giving the ASG plenty of room to give Jamal a nice offer that he may agree to. ** Denver is a team that somewhat validates your example of a team that loses a main scorer, but compensates for that with multiple players and other people stepping up. But as we saw in the playoffs, the problem arises when defenses stiffen, and someone on that team needs to step up and become a guy who can score off the dribble. Incredibly, Ty Lawson had to almost become that guy for Denver vs OKC. The great balance on offense that Denver had shown after the Melo trade, had become stifled by the OKC defense. And your guy, Wilson Chandler, straight up crashed and burned in the playoffs, becoming useless offensively ( 4 ppg - 4 rebs - 28% FG ), and was even sent to the bench after being the starter most of his time in Denver. When push comes to shove, you need guys who can put the ball in the hole, even if it's a JJ who can only do it 50% of the time. Better than 50% of the time, than 15% of the time. ** I'm not worried about the 29 other teams that passed on Blair, and the 6 other teams that let him slip past them again in Round 2. I believe San Antonio, seeing that guy freefall more, traded up to get him at #37. C to C, it just proves that most of the GMs around the league have no idea how to evaluate talent. That's why certain teams seem to always find the diamonds in the rough and other teams take chances on guys who can't play on the NBA level. If Da'sean Butler comes back from that knee injury, the Spurs will have an instant 6th man to bring off the bench. The Heat were the ones that took the kid, but let him go to add Dampier. So what do the Spurs do? They snatch that kid right up. Watch for him next year, while we all hope and pray that our 2nd roung pick, Pape Sy, can be more than an bench ornament. F--- what those other 29 teams do. It still doesn't prohibit us from making possible savvy moves like that. That would be absolutely incredible to see the Spurs get both Blair AND Butler for basically pennies, with both guys being 1st round talents. (( lol . . it's obvious that I can't do it. I can't answer in short sentences )) ** Andre Miller and his ability to run an offense, pass the ball, and play defense, would've been a gamechanger for the Hawks. He was the real PG that we needed. The penetrating PG that could get to the hole and set other people up, taking the ball out of JJ's hands at times. LOL . . most real good PGs are "ball dominant". Paul is ball dominant. Deron is ball dominant. Rose is ball dominant. Even Ty Lawson is ball dominant. I would've had no problem with Miller dominating the ball, as long as he scored at the rim and dished out those assists. You're talking about a guy who is guaranteed to get you 7 to 8 assists a game. He would've made the game for Smith and Horford much easier, while possibly even making JJ a more efficient shooter. But no . . let's retain Bibby because we don't want to shake up anything, and keep JJ as the defacto PG for the Hawks, forcing him to set up our actual PG for jumpers . . instead of the other way around. ** It wasn't Jamal's fault. I blasted Teague for most of his 2 years here, because I thought he wasn't a leader on the court ( especially when playing with Jamal ). No . . the people you blame are Teague ( for not showing that he could ball with the 2nd unit on a consistent basis ) and Drew ( including Woody ), who continued to trot Jamal out at the PG, when it was obvious that he had most of his troubles when he played the point, especially on defense. But neither coach trusted Teague to be the backup PG, so they played Jamal there. ** LOL @ all of the Georgia players. That's what I'm talking about. It's just incompetence by management to do that. That wouldn't change with JJ gone, if they actually believe that adding former Georgia "greats" to the Hawks will get a little more people to come to Hawk games. Who's next? We gonna trade for Sundiata Gaines so that he can backup Teague? He does have "Sund" in his name, and he played at Georgia . . so it's a perfect fit. ** Now who's talking doom and gloom . . lol. Kurt Thomas was a better option than any big man we added to the roster. Undersized, yes. But a good position defender. People used to ask if I was kin to Woody because I would defend him so much. Are you kin to Sund, or the nephew or brother of one of the owners? ** My rationale is that good players can overcome bad coaching and bad GM decisions. You win in the NBA with star caliber players, not a bunch of good players. JJ is a 5 time legit All-Star, but not a superstar. Horford and Smith are very good players. Jamal, when he's on, is a very good player. We need Teague to play at the level he played in the Chicago series from now on. Otherwise, the makeup of this team is poor. But stars can overcome a poorly constructed lineup, and even bad coaching. I used to be a defender, somewhat, of the ASG. But last summer brought me over to "the dark side". I can't support those cats anymore. Yeah I do support what they did with JJ, because we basically HAD to do it to stay a playoff level team. You talking about the team locking itself into mediocrity. Ish . . we've been locked into mediocrity for 40 years. Letting All-Star caliber players go isn't going to get us out of this mediocre rut. Evaluating talent a little better, on the other hand, could be a gamechanger. (( Damn . . I can't do it. I'm just going to have to let you have the last word on this, and just leave it alone ))

Lowballed? The offer for Smith, considering where he was as a player at that time, was just about right. The offer for JJ was the MAX they could've offered him for a 4 year extension. The offer for Horford was about 2 mill a year less than the max he could've received ( I think ) . . . Of the 3, do you know why Horford was the one that accepted his deal? Even if he thought he was worth more than 12 million a year, the uncertainty of the new CBA . . and the projected reduction of the salary cap and possible new salary structure . . were major influences in why Horford didn't take a chance on becoming a restricted free agent, and accepting the deal from the ASG. Had it been a regular year, Horford may have turned down the offer too. And to be honest, it's commonplace for good restricted free agents to turn down the initial extension from their team, especially if they think they can get more money in the open market. You seem shellshocked by the 60 mill number I said the ASG would offer Jamal if JJ wasn't here. OK, so forget about the 4 year - 60 million. What do you think they would've offered Jamal? Or better yet . . if you were the ASG/Sund, what kind of extension would you offered Jamal? Now keep in mind that if Jamal doesn't agree to an extension before June 30th, he becomes an unrestricted free agent. And that means that this is JJ all over again for them. It's not like we can wait for a team to throw a deal at him, and we match it. No. We either have to be aggressive and get him to sign, or watch him go to another team and try to get SOMETHING from his departure. Remember, you're not only trying to get him to sign the deal that you want, your deal has to be attractive enough for him to sign, when everybody else is coming at him as well. So forget 4 yrs - 60 million. What would you offer Jamal if he were an unrestricted free agent, and would you feel that would be good enough to get Jamal to re-sign? See . . I gave Wesley props all throughout that last post. I didn't diss that dude. I just said that he wasn't as good as JJ 6 years ago. And he isn't. And I didn't compare him to Marvin. I said that I wish Marvin would play like him, because we then wouldn't have a lot of problem with Marvin. Matthews is a good, solid player. He plays his role on both ends of the floor well. And I said that Wesley was a good finisher on fast breaks. But in the halfcourt offense, yeah, he mainly just sits back and shoots 3s. Almost 40% of his shots last year were 3 pointers . . and he made 41% of them. If Marvin could do what Wesley does, Marvin would be an asset. But Wesley is no Joe Johnson 6 years ago. Joe Johnson 6 years ago was being mentioned in the same breath as Ray Allen, Michael Redd and Larry Hughes. All of those guys received max or close to max deals . . including Joe Johnson. And only Allen has had a more successful career in the past 6 years, than JJ. And JJ put himself on the radar the previous season, without Nash. Nash just made his game from a 3 point shooting standpoint much, much easier. I'm sorry man . . but that lineup isn't "deep". Zaza is a serviceable center, but nowhere near what a decent center should be. Marvin has major issues these days. Jamal is Jamal. Bibby broke down around Christmas. Jordan would still not play, and Teague's face may still be on the milk carton, if not for Hinrich's injury. I think Drew had to play Teague vs Chicago. But if Hinrich was healthy, Teague would've been lucky to see 10 minutes a game. And he would've been playing alongside Jamal and Marvin and Zaza . . instead of JJ and Smith and Horford. It's obvious that Teague plays better with the starters, specifically alongside Joe Johnson. Why he struggles playing alongside Jamal, I do not know. But that team is not deep. We would still have major issues on the frontline, and only one real shot creator who could get his own shot and make it at times. If they did, that would mean that they're not worried about winning at this time. Which was my point about that team being a 6 - 8 seed in the East, instead of a 4 or 5 seed. But honestly, I don't think Drew's rotation would change that much. He's a 1st year coach with a very small amount of time to prove himself. If he didn't think Teague and Jordan were ready, he wouldn't experiment playing them and risk losing games and possibly missing the playoffs. He'd trust the vets, just like Woody did. He didn't even think about playng Jordan when JJ went down, opting to give Damien all of those minutes. And Teague only got a shot in the playoffs because Hinrich went down. - Hinrich would start, and Jamal would still play the point so that he could control the ball and get his own shot - Because of that, Teague would still get limited minutes - Jordan would get zero minutes, because Wesley would be solid enough to play the SG 25 - 30 minutes a night, while Jamal alternated between playing the point and the 2. - We'd still get killed on the boards, because we would've have done nothing to address the frontline issues. I guess Collins would be signed, but we'd need a rebounder. ( Sund knew that last year, and didn't get us one, so what changes in his decision making, if JJ isn't here? ) So unless the ASG gave their blessing to Drew, and told him to develop the young players and he wouldn't get blamed for any slippage in the standings, then no . . I don't think much would change here at all. Solo is a scrub and a hack machine. The only reason why I brought Solo up, was because Sund managed to bring in players who were WORSE than Solo . . which was incredible. LOL @ blaming JJ for the bums that were here. You forget that Sund - re-signed Randolph Morris to a 2 year deal ( Randolph Morris now ) - passed on Dejuan Blair and took Jeff Teague, when Blair was easily the best player on the board at that time, and the reboundeder we needed. - signed Joe Smith - signed Jason Collins when he was grossly out of shape - signed Josh Powell, when he's done little to nothing in this league - signed Etan Thomas, who hasn't been a productive role player in 4 - 5 years Don't blame JJ for Sund's inability to bring in decent big men . . even decent scrub big men. Sund has never been good at evaluating big men. I would've rather Sund throw 3 - 4 million at a decent big man, that to populate the bench with bottom of the barrel minimum vet guys. LOL . . and you're blaming JJ for Sund trying to upgrade the talent around JJ? That's what a GM is supposed to do. JJ, Smith, and Horford are "the core", and they needed help. The Bibby and Jamal moves helped propel us into the playoffs. But nobody told that dude to re-sign Bibby, and not go after an Andre Miller. Nobody told Sund to hire a coach that would play Jamal in the same way as Woody did, stunting Teague's growth ( unless ownership told him to hire Drew . . which they probably did ). Nobody told Sund to bring in Josh Powell, a finesse PF when we desperately needed a physical one. But that's Sund. When it comes to big men, Sund can't evaluate a big man to save his life. LOL . . well why can't that "professional GM" of ours do a better job with his talent evaluation of free agents? Why are we wasting money on flat out scrubs, instead of being able to find diamonds in the rough like an Asik in Chicago, or a Barea in Dallas? Kurt Thomas was available last year. Why not go and get him, instead of Josh Powell? Couldn't get Dampier. Didn't want to use the #31 on a big man, even a project big man. It would stay the same because that's all Sund knows. The dude did the same thing in Seattle that he's doing here. He kept that team the same, believing in guys like Luke Ridnour and Nick Collison. Signing guys like Earl Watson, and hoping he could help them win games because Luke couldn't play a lick of defense. He kept the "core" of that team the same, until his ownership basically forced him to completely dismantle the team, starting with not re-signing Rashard Lewis. After that, it was a fire sale in Seattle. Sund spent 3 consecutive 1st round picks in 3 years, trying to find that elusive big man in the draft. Robert Swift? Johan Petro? Saer Sene? ( lol @ the argument that Walter made for that guy over Shelden Williams . . and they both ended up sucking, but Sene was horrible ). I mean damn, that dude got rid of Nate McMillan, and hired Bob Weiss? Come on now. You view my mindset as "apocalyptic", while I view your mindset as "delusional". So because JJ is gone, Sund is all of a sudden going to start making great decisions with personnel and coaches, how he dishes out contracts, and how the team is constructed as a whole? Drew's motion offense is suddenly going to work, because the horrific ISO GUY that kills ball flow is gone? A team full of decent role players are going to succeed, and everything will gel just fine? The ASG are going to become some savvy management group that is going to be able to get the most bang for their buck? Not buying that at all. So we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

Sund irritates me. He tries to spin everything. This team was getting ROLLED in a few of those games after the New Year. We were easily playing the worst out of all of the playoff teams going into the postseason. I mean, we looked straight up horrible. But because we pulled up a plane that was in a nosedive ready to crash nose first, and managed to pull up and crash softly on its belly . . . "we're close"? Close to what? I'm not going to totally diss this team and their effort once the playoffs started. The Orlando series was great, and they did manage to take 2 games vs Chicago, with a chance to win a 3rd game. And while we as fans may be frustrated that we can't get further than the 2nd round, these group of guys are arguably the 2nd best group in Atlanta history. I'd put the JJ, Smith, Horford group slightly over the Mookie, Smitty, Deke group . . but under the Nique, Doc, Willis group. Sund needs to be very careful going into this offseason, thinking everything is fine. We have some serious issues on this team that need to be worked out. We have deficiencies in this roster that need to be addressed. This roster desperately needs to be balanced out and bench roles need to be set. And hopefully Coach Drew will be a better manager of the roster in his 2nd year. But "close"? Close to winning the division? Close to getting a top 2 seed, so that we'll have an easier road to the EC Finals? We're not going to be "close", until we start challenging for the best record in the conference.

Come on KB. There is no way that if Ronnie Brewer was asked to do all that JJ does here, that his numbers would be close to what they are now. Essentially, put Brewer on a team in which he's the best ( or 2nd or 3rd best player ) . . tell him to try to score 20 ppg . . create for others to the tune of 5 assists a game . . and take the majority of late game shots, and Brewer would crash and burn like a meteorite hitting Earth. I expect more from you man. You're comparing a role player who is only asked to play tremendous defense, to a guy who is asked to do just about everything under the sun. There's a reason why players like JJ get paid like they do ( or even overpaid ) . . while a guy like Brewer will NEVER see that type of money ever. When is the last time Brewer has been doubled? Has he ever been doubled in his entire career? Is Brewer asked to play and guard 3 positions at times? Is Brewer in the game at the end of games, to help take some of the offensive burden off of D-Rose? 73% of Ronnie's made FGs came via assists, which means he has to be set up to score. Only 47% of JJ's made FGs came via assists. Brewer's win score is a direct result of him playing with a great defensive unit that limits the production of the opponent. Everybody on the Bulls, with the exception of Rose and Korver, has a higher defensive win score than they do an offensive win score. That's almost unheard of. That's 2003 Detroit Piston like. That same win score stat says that Marvin contributed more to winning, than Jamal Crawford this year. Who in the hell is going to believe that, after watching Marvin this year? Jamal reverted back to what he usually is as a player, but Invisible Marvin contributed more to winning than Jamal did this year? I mean damn . . at least compare JJ to a guy who has a similar role, like an Eric Gordon. Don't compare him to Ronnie friggin Brewer, and try to spin that like he contributes to winning more than JJ does. Brewer simply benefits from not having to be a go to scorer on offense, and plays with a great defensive unit.

(( clapping in a slow, sarcastic kind of way )) Good post. At least you put in some thought and got a few of the facts straight. It's just too bad there are gaping holes in your post. It's a good post though. And I won't stoop to your level with the name calling, even though it's hilarious. Now . . let's see if I can add some TRUTH to your post. Unfortunately for you sir, this is DEAD WRONG. The ASG DID offer an extension to JJ before the final year of his deal. But he turned down the extension. And it's funny that he turned down the very amount that I suggested they might offer Jamal, if JJ wasn't in the mix ( 4 years - 60 million ). C to C here are the real facts: Johnson - offered an extension before the start of his final year . . but turned it down to become an unrestricted free agent Horford - offered an extension before the start of his restrictive free agent year . . and he re-signed. Smith - offered a 5 year - 45 million dollar extension in the year before he became a restricted free agent, but turned it down to test the market the next year, just like JJ did. ( Read down to the "Rumor and Innuendo" section of that listing on Hoopinion ) So now do you see the REAL pattern developing? If the ASG thought a guy was an essential piece to the puzzle, they tried to lock him up before he hit the market. In the case of JJ and Smith, they both turned down the extensions, and ONLY hit the market the next summer because of that. So knowing this, if there is no Joe Johnson in the mix in Atlanta, would the ASG view Jamal as being an essential player, seeing that he just won the 6th Man of the Year Award and was an integral part of us winning 53 games in 2009 - 10? Don't react emotionally to this statement with some cussing tirade. Just think about it. Rationally think about it. Review what they did when they tried to lock in Johnson, Horford, and Smith, and ask yourself . . . would they do the same with Jamal Crawford? Again . . don't respond emotionally . . respond with reason. Now what about the other players? Jamal - not offered an extension because Horford was the priority to be extended, and because we'd re-signed JJ . . and possibly because we had his young clone in "that dude in Washington". I don't think he wasn't offered the extension because they didn't want him back in the mix. I do think they wanted Jamal back, especially if there was no Joe Johnson here. Childress - given an extension when he became a restricted free agent, but he turned it down. The extension was said by Sund to be a little over the MLE ( which was $5.5 mill ). Chill thought that was too low. He then got the 3 year - 20 mill deal in which he'd basically get the entire 20 mill tax free, so he left. Marvin - given an extension when he became a restricted free agent, and he accepted the 5 year - 37.5 to 40 million dollar deal. He was NOT unrestricted. And unlike what they did with Smith, they didn't let the "marketplace" determine Marvin's value, which was a huge mistake, if they were going to re-sign him at an 8 mill price tag anyway. There was very little real talk of anybody even wanting Marvin. Bibby - re-signed once his contract ended. The ASG decides to retain the services of Bibby for 3 years, and trade for Jamal Crawford, instead of letting Acie Law have a legit shot at running the Hawks at PG. Without those two moves, we would've been well under the cap and could've made a legitimate move to add Andre Miller to this roster, if they didn't believe in Acie. I remember all of the talk on here about letting Bibby's deal expire, and how we'd have cap space to do some things. But what we did, was re-sign everybody. Zaza - re-signed once his contract ended. Spurs were said to be interested, but never seriously pursued him. OK . . . so we'd have 6.8 million instead of the 4 million that I said. OK. Good research, and a good player to get as a complimentary player. Wesley Matthews is what I wish Marvin was. A good catch and shoot 3-point specialist type guy who can finish out on the break. He isn't going to create his own offense off the dribble much, but he can knock down open shots. Which means that he isn't a 2-way guard. He's a good spot up shooter. But he isn't creating much offense off the dribble for himself, seeing that he has 70% of his offense created for him. Wes is a good system player though. If Marvin could do what he does, especially from a catch and shoot standpoint, there would be little complaints about the guy. Having said that . . Wesley is no Joe Johnson of 04 - 05. JJ was a far more versatile offensive player back then that Wesley is now. And that's why JJ was a star in the making back then. Matter of fact, that is why shot creators usually make more out on the open market, than spot up shooters. The ability to create and make your own shot in the NBA usually gets you paid. JJ wasn't just a 3 point shooter back then. The dude could handle the rock, set people up, and get his own shot. That's also the reason why JJ was in high demand when he was a restricted free agent. Cleveland had a chance to pull the trigger and get JJ, but they opted for Larry Hughes, a guy who had just had a huge year in Washington, after they failed to woo Ray Allen and Michael Redd to Cleveland . Having said that, Wesley is nice role player though. Definitely a guy the Hawks could use on this team. I'd replace him with Marvin in a heartbeat and move JJ to the 3. Oh . . one more thing. The reason why Portland was able to secure Wesley, was because they not only offered him the full MLE, they frontloaded Wesley's contract in the first year ( 9.2 million ). So even with him, the question would've been if the ASG would've payed Wesley Matthews 9+ million right from the jump, to acquire his services. If they thought he was the "new JJ", then probably yeah. If not, they would've looked to someone else. This lineup would've still forced Jamal to be "the man". I mean, unless you're starting Matthews over Jamal, which would have seen the Hawks lineup look like this PG - Bibby ( or Hinrich, if the trade is made ) G - Matthews F - Wilson Chandler PF - Smith C - Horford G - Teague G - Jamal F - Marvin F - Powell C - Zaza G - Jordan C - Collins Rational thinking C to C . . . not emotional. Bibby would've still been in that lineup at the beginning of the year. Jamal would've still come in the game to play the point. Teague would've still been buried on the bench, along with Jordan. Remember . . Drew had no intention to use Jordan much this season, and Teague was somehow not the backup PG, Jamal was. LOL . . if you add Matthews to this lineup, essentially replacing JJ, what makes you think Drew coaches the team any different? And if you still make the Hinrich trade, that means that Jordan is gone. If you don't make the trade, Bibby is still here, with Teague ( hopefully ) starting. That team MIGHT make the playoffs as a 6 - 8th seed and have 36 - 42 wins. But with the lack of shot creators on the team, I don't know if we get past Orlando in the First round. It's all speculation though. As previously stated, the ASG has always offered contract extensions to guys that they deemed to be essential to the team. Without JJ in the mix, Jamal would've become essential to the team ( unless he flat out sucked ). Then, in your scenario, you leave Jamal open to be had by someone else, and focus on Nick Young ( a restricted free agent ) and JR Smith ( an unrestricted free agent ). So . . once again, without emotion . . what happens if Washington matches any offer sheet for Young, and JR Smith doesn't even want to come to ATL? And worse . . if those two things happen, what happens if Jamal is offered something ridiculous by a team like New Jersey, and he jumps on that before the Hawks can counter? At that point, this is your team PG - Teague G - Hinrich F - Marvin F - Smith C - Horford C - Zaza Because of the Bibby/Jordan/Evans for Hinrich deal, we don't even have a 1st round pick. And everybody else who is currently on the team, would all be unrestricted free agents. So now we're in a situation in which we're hoping guys will want to come here and play . . or we have to overpay for marginal players to get them to come here ( see Speedy Claxton . . because that's the exact scenario we found ourselves in that year. Quality guys like Sam Cassell didn't want to play here, so we had to settle for the worse of the best of the mediocre. ) Maybe with all of that "cap space", you can add other quality players to this team . . if they want to come to Atlanta. I think I get it now though. Without JJ in the mix, you're simply content with losing for a while, if it will make us better in the long run. It's just that quality free agents have historically not flocked to ATL. But who cares . . as long as we have "cap space", we're good. LOL . . tell that to Cleveland. (( sigh )) is right. Because what you're overlooking is that we didn't have to sign those scrubs in the first place. Josh Powell and Etan Thomas were complete wastes of signage. Solo = Powell + Etan . . in both salary and in ability. And Solo isn't anything to write home about either. It's just that those other 2 are garbage. And (( sigh )) again . . because Sund didn't have to bring in Damien Wilkins either. That was the time in which Jordan should've gotten increased PT at the 2, to compensate for JJ's absence. Instead, this team goes out and gets Damien Wilkins. He had flashes of good games, but for the most part, that experiment not only failed, it didn't even give us a legit look at Jordan. Nobody told this ownership group and GM to go out and get us the bottom of the barrel type players. They may have been better of simply paying one guy 2 mill a year, than to pay 2 guys less than a million. But it's not just the money, it's the players that they bring in here. It's the lack of ability to properly evaluate the types of role players that we need, that has us perennially having a horrible bench. Heck, even buying out Pape Sy is a head scratching move. The team is so concerned about money, but they pay 500K to bring Sy to the Hawks so that he can develop in practice and in the D-League? But the other thing may simply be that some of the guys that the ASG targeted, just didn't want to come here. At that point, maybe you have no choice but to dig in the bottom of the garbage can, and get whomever you can get. Your serve.

Wretch . . I disagree with the complete blow up philosophy. There's no way I want to go back to waiting 3 - 5 years to get back to playoff level, just because I wanted to break up this team. Look how long it took the Knicks to get back to the playoffs. Nah . . no way I'm doing a total breakdown. People know where and what the problem is. All that needs to happen is if we want to trade him or not. This team was a sub 500 ( really a sub .400 ) team the last third of the season. If this was the NFL, the Hawks would be a 9 - 7 team that won its wild card playoff game on the road, but lost by 10 points in the divisional playoff round. Yeah, it's great that the team won that playoff game, but the regular season showed that there were many areas that could've been improved. So you see where you may be weak at, and make a move to upgrade the team. Trade one of the frontline guys, and see if we can balance out this team. Trading JJ may be hard for a few years, so the best way to change the mix is to trade either Horford or Smith probably needs to be traded.

I'm saying that if the ASG liked Jamal more . . or if they didn't want to pay JJ top dollar . . then yes, they would've let him walk. That's what some people wanted right? For him to walk? But I'll throw the ball to you. You name a scenario complete with names that we could've legitimately brought here last year, had JJ decide not to come back to ATL. Name some names. Name a scenario. I named mine . . which was the most plausible one out there, because we could easily extend Jamal and not worry about the salary cap issues that would've prohibited the ASG from bringing in other free agents. If you can't see the scenario in which the ASG would've given Jamal the big contract if JJ wasn't here, then I don't know what to say. If they didn't, then we'd definitely be screwed and doomed for the lottery. But not a worse enough team to get one of the top picks unless we got extremely lucky. Solo made what? 1.5 mill last year? It's not like Indiana threw the bank at him. I think he got something like a 2 yr - 3 million dollar deal or something. As for JJ in Phoenix . . JJ was a "so-called" 4th option that was the 2nd best ballhandler and shot creator on the team . . that averaged 17 ppg - 5 rebs - 4 asst. Some of you guys throw around that 4th option comment like he was a scrub in Phoenix or something. Like he was Marvin Williams in Phoenix as a 4th option or something. JJ had shown even before Nash got there in 04, that he could play the point and the 2, seeing that before Nash got there, it was he, Amare, and Shawn Marion. I think the scenario was that they traded Stephon Marbury or he got hurt. I forget the circumstances. But here's what that 4th option was doing without Nash on the squad in 03 - 04 Jan - 21 ppg - 5 rebs - 5 asst - 47% FG Feb - 18 ppg - 5 rebs - 6 asst - 43% FG Mar - 19 ppg - 5 rebs - 5 asst - 46% FG Apr - 16 ppg - 5 rebs - 6 asst - 38% FG So that 4th option the following year had already shown MAJOR SIGNS of becoming a baller. But when Nash got there, he was their designated slasher/shooter, and had the ball less in his hands. So you can keep referring to him as a 4th option, like he was some sort of scrub or something. It's straight BS is what it is. He was a 4th option in the offense only . . . not a 4th option in skilll and production. Maybe that's what you should do C to C. Find a player that we can get right now, that isn't one of the main guys on the team, but is putting up comparable numbers to JJ in Phoenix. Find us at the very least a 17 ppg - 4 rebs - 4 assist guy . . . and we can trade JJ for him. Maybe the Clippers will give us Eric Gordon ( which would be silly, seeing that the Clips would need more than JJ to put them over the top . . and Gordon may arguably be a better scorer than JJ right now anyway ). But go ahead . .find us a young guy. Just don't say you'd trade him. Tell us who we could legitimately bring back. Diesel . . they have short memories . . or forget the history of the league. While I do agree that you do need that star player on the team, in a lot of instances, that star player didn't become recognized as a legit star player, until he got the help that elevated the team to championship level. Charles Barkley comes to mind before he went to Phoenix. Barkley was a superstar, but he was never taken seriously as a guy who you could win a title with, until he teamed up with KJ and Dan Majerle in Phoenix. When he got better players around him, he became legit, and even won an MVP.

Steaming crap huh . . . lol. OK C to C . . why did we trade for "he who's name shall not be mentioned"? Remember, this was BEFORE JJ signed that contract. JC2 was the contingency plan for if JJ didn't return, so that he could play JC1's role off the bench, and Jamal could play Joe's role as a starter ( because he would've HAD to start ). And with Jamal in a contract year, and just winning the 6th Man of the Year award, do you really think the ASG would've let him go to market with no go to guy or shot creators on this team? For the same reason why they locked up Horford before the season started, they would've did the same thing with Jamal . . . especially if Jamal would've started talking about not getting a contract extension like he did earlier in the year. If the ASG would've decided to let JJ go, it would've been because they felt that JAMAL could replace him. This is why Jamal would've got that contract. Maybe not 15 mill a year . . but definitely higher than the 10 mill a year that he earned in 09 - 10. Jamal would've HAD to be the man here, because he would've been the only one who could get his own shot at any time. **************** As for the ASG selling us on Powell and Joe Smith, that's my point. We should've never brought those guys into the mix in the first place. Those weren't the type of players we needed on this team. A non-scoring, but good rebounding PF would've had more worth on the Hawks, than the limited offensive, no rebounding, and no defense that Powell and Joe Smith brought to the table. Heck . .we'd been better off keeping Solomom Jones here, if those were going to be the guys that replaced him off the bench. Solo was weak as hell and was a foul machine, but at least he could block and/or alter a shot. Etan Thomas? Damien Wilkins? Jason Collins ( who is only good for somewhat limiting what Dwight Howard does )? Man please. Even adding another wing like a T-Mac, whom Detroit got to play for them for a minimum contract, would've had more value as a backup SF, than any of those big men we had on this team. The ASG/Sund have been poor at evaluating talent across the board. Flip Murray was the only guy that truly worked out as a low level guy. **************** And us getting Joe Johnson was more than luck . . it was damn near the perfect storm - JJ's former team throws him a contract offer that he thought he was worth more than - Hawks are absolutely pitiful, but damn near 20 million under the cap - JJ sees an opportunity to play closer to home, while playing for more money, and getting a chance to be "the man" - Knight uses a loophole in the CBA to offer JJ what basically was a balloon payment of 20 mill in Year 1, sweetening the pot - JJ seeing the chance to go from 3 mill to 20 million in one year, plus be the main guy on a team, asks the Suns not to match ATL's offer - ATL gives Phoenix what they want . . Diaw + 2 first round picks, for JJ So you tell me C to C . . where are we going to have that kind of a "perfect storm" in order to get a player at or above JJ's caliber? We can only do it via a trade. And if JJ wasn't here, we wouldn't have been far enough under the salary cap to make a serious offer at a good player. We would've only been something like 4 - 5 million under the cap without JJ signed. LOL . . which is another reason why the ASG would've locked up Jamal Crawford. There. There's a big pile of garbage for you to sift though. And it's all a very likely scenario, than wishing that this organization finds some "diamond in the rough" and molds him into a star or superstar.

Early nomination for "Post of the Off-Season".

OK . . now ask yourself this question. When has the ASG, or the Hawks for that matter, just lucked into finding a #1 option of that caliber . . even a young guy? Do you really trust the same management that tried to sell guys like Josh Powell and Joe Smith as guys that we could count on, to make a savvy find to replace JJ? I'll tell you exactly what the ASG would've done. They would've let JJ go, and signed Jamal Crawford to a 4 year - 60 million deal. This team would've lived and died by Jamal . . and we STILL wouldn't have a 2nd guy that could create his own shot, unless we decided to play and keep "he who's name shall not be mentioned". It wouldn't have been no master plan to bring in a Nick Young, or JR Smith, or any of those guys you talked about. The guy would've been JAMAL. And he would've had no choice but to take all of the tough shots, because there would be no one on the team to take the tough shots. So . . you would've had Jamal at 4 years - 60 million . . instead of JJ at 6 yrs - 123 million. LOL . . either way, we're still over the salary cap, or not enough below it to get an impact player, even if you took JJ's 15 million this year off the books. JJ is unappreciated right now by 75% of the fan base, because he's not a superstar. But 10 years from now, JJ will be an undisputed top 5 Atlanta Hawk of all time. I think only Nique and John Drew have more All-Star appearances than JJ right now. JJ may not be the "put you over the hump to win a title type #1 option", but he has been a very capable #1 option the past 5 years. What Drew needs to do, is instead of trying to get EVERYBODY open shots in his motion offense, he needs to design an offense that utilizes the offensive skills of his top 3 scorers ( JJ, Smith, Horford ). Getting Smith an open 20 foot jumper, or Marvin an open 3, or Josh Powell an open 15 footer should NOT be the focus of this offense.

MVP . . . here's a thought. If you're going to focus on how Iverson led to the decline of the league, do it in a way that almost has him as the "Anti-Jordan". Nike ( Jordan ) vs Reebok ( Iverson ) . . and how Reebok purposely marketed AI's street image. Shaved bald head vs Cornrows . . . and how that hairstyle of Iverson's was perceived by average NBA fans as "rebellious and thuggish" . . while Jordan's shaved head was "stylish and safe". Make sure to cite how each generation of fans adopted each hairstyle. Philly vs Chicago . . . from a rudeness standpoint, and how that enhanced and maybe even influenced Iverson's image as a "bad boy" in the NBA The "Practice" interview . . and how that illustrated how Iverson wouldn't strive for excellence at all times, even to the detriment of his teammates . . . while Jordan would push his teammates to the limit in practices, striving for excellence at all times. Dream Team vs Team Nightmare . . how Iverson was the face of the Olympic disappointment in 2004, while Jordan and his crew dominate the world back in 1992 R&B vs Hip-Hop . . . Jordan's style and personna represented the cool, laid back, and smooth aspect of the R&B music that dominated the 80s and early 90s ( think Keith Sweat ) . . Iverson represented the brash, outspoken, I don't care aspects of hip-hop ( think Tupac ).

Good discussion. I would agree with Diesel, and say that Jordan's departure and the immediate decline of the Bulls, was the #1 reason. Look back at 90s. The Bulls were by far the most dominant and visible team in the league. Meanwhile, the teams that were dominant in the 80s ( Lakers, Celtics, Pistons, Sixers ) were all sorry. So if you were a casual basketball fan in the 90s, the team you'd latch onto would be the Bulls. No one in the East was consistent enough to challenge them throughout the entire decade. The Knicks came the closest. But even with them, Patrick Ewing wasn't the most marketable player in the world. Jordan retires, Phil Jackson leaves, and Scottie Pippen AND Dennis Rodman all leave in the same year. The Bulls go from team of the decade, to one of the worst teams in history. The bandwagon Bulls fans are left in limbo. Who would they root for? Eventually, about 50% of them rooted for the Lakers, after Shaq and Kobe matured enough to win championships. But even they couldn't equal what Jordan brought on and off the court.

That's because they think JJ is jealous of everybody, for some crazy reason. Some said the same thing about Jamal and JJ last year, thinking that JJ was jealous of Jamal. I broke down a random 10 game stretch of who JJ dished out assists to, and Jamal received the 2nd most assists from JJ. Only Smith received more. JJ has ALWAYS supported Teague. And he'd have no problem playing with the kid. He actually makes his job easier, especially on the defensive end, because that would mean that JJ wouldn't have to guard PGs anymore.

LOL @ this even being a debate. Forget being a very good PG, Chris Paul is damn near a HALL OF FAME caliber PG. And some of you wouldn't trade for him, just because Teague played good in 5 playoff games? What's next? Not wanting to give up Josh Smith in exchange for Blake Griffin? Not wanting to give up Zaza in exchange for Dwight Howard? No wanting to give up Joe Johnson for Kobe Bryant? Paul would be here a week, and after people saw him play about 3 games, Jeff Teague's name would never be mentioned agaim.

Which means that you guys need to trade Howard for Andrew Bynum ASAP. Get the Lakers to toss in some 1st round draft picks as well. Bynum's contract expires after next year, if his team option isn't picked up. So if Bynum doesn't work out, you can always let him expire in a year or two. Andrew may like the change in scenery. Who knows? Maybe he blossoms in Orlando, as the #1 or #2 scoring option. I don't believe that Howard has any interest in coming to ATL. He's never even hinted that he may want to play for the Hawks, nor is there speculation ( outside of a few Hawks fans ) that his relationship with Josh Smith would entice him to come to ATL. Wishful thinking is right.

MIAMI ( 3 out of 4 ) - 2 legit offensive superstars in Wade and Lebron - a legit 3rd guy in Chris Bosh - very good defensive team - questionable rebounding team DALLAS ( 2 and 2 possibles ) - A legit offensive superstar in Dirk . . and 6 man of the year playing at an All-Star level in JT - No real 3rd guy, although they have a collection of people that occasionally step up - very good defensive team - decent rebounding team CHICAGO ( 2 and 2 possibles ) - One offensive superstar in Rose, but no real definitive #2 guy - a collection of guys that could be the #3 - excellent defensive team - excelllent rebounding team MEMPHIS ( 2 and a possible ) - A legit offensive star, borderline offensive superstar in Zebo, but no real 2nd guy - 3rd guy by committee, with OJ Mayo being that main guy - very good defensive team - very good rebounding team OKLAHOMA CITY ( 1 and 2 possibles ) - A legit offensive superstar in Durant . . with a good, sometimes borderline superstar in guy in Westbrook - a 3rd guy in James Hardin, but he is a questionable one - questionable defensive team - questionable rebounding team

Actually, when you look at that play, Noah wasn't doubling JJ . . but Derrick Rose had shaded all the way over to JJ, leaving Teague wide open in the corner. So it was essentially Rose and Bogans doubling JJ at the top of the key. JJ makes the correct pass to Teague, and Teague does the correct thing in attacking the rim. Also in that play, Collins ever so slightly screens out Boozer, allowing a clearer path to the rim for Teague. Noah, who was on the other side of the lane, simply couldn't rotate fast enough to stop Teague's dunk. But your initial statement is right. That entire play was set up by JJ ( who was credited with the assist on that play ), and the attention the Bulls were paying to him. And you're also right when you say that if we can't get somebody who can draw the amount of defensive attention that JJ draws, then we're worse off than before, mainly because of the lack of shot creators on the team.

The Pistons were arguably the best defensive team of all time, made up of guys who did at least one thing very well. And when I say very well, I mean at an All-NBA level. - Ben Wallace: Defensive Player of Year, dominant rebounder and shot blocker - Chauncey Billups: top notch PG that could defend, run the team, and maybe most important make big shots - Rip Hamilton: very good midrange sharpshooter, decent defender - Tayshaun Prince: Elite perimeter defender - Rasheed Wallace: Very good post defender, decent offensive threat on the inside and outside To use the Detroit example is cool. Just understand what the Pistons were made up of. Then look at us. We're nowhere near the defensive team that the Pistons were. And that's the only team in the history of the NBA that won a title without an offensive superstar. To win oe even compete for a title, you need: - 2 LEGIT all-star players with at least one of those guys being a big time offensive player - a 3rd guy, or a group of guys who can step up as that 3rd guy, who can occasionally get it done - play at a very high level defensively as a team. Preferably be a top 10, even a top 5 defense - be a very good rebounding team that can limit opponents to be "one and done", and can gobble up offensive rebounds. When you look at us, how many of these attributes do we possess as a team? - Do we have 2 LEGIT all-stars? . . . Maybe, but they don't always show up - Do we have a 3rd guy that can step up to help the All-Stars? . . . If people question if we even have a #1 or a #2 guy, how can we have a #3 guy? The truth may be that our #2 guy is more equipped to be a #3 guy - Are we a top 10 defensive team? . . . NO - Are we a very good rebounding team? . . NO So if the Hawks were a spades hand, we would bid 1 and a possible . . or even say that we had 2 possibles. Honestly, I look at Memphis, and I get very jealous. They basically got rid of everybody 4 years ago, with the exception of a young Rudy Gay . . acquired a much maligned low post scorer for expiring contracts . . used a plethora of 1st round draft picks to build up their depth . . acquired free agents and made trades to strengthen them defensively . . and promoted an assistant coach that understood how to maximize the talents of the ENTIRE roster. And they're doing all of this without arguably their best player. They blew up their team at the same time we were becoming a playoff team. And I'll be damned if they haven't surpassed us in every way, shape, or form. The freakin Grizzlies. And they passed us all because they know how to construct a team and develop players. Memphis literally have a 2 and a possible, out of the 4 - very good rebounding team - very good defensive team - possibly multiple people who can step up and be the 3rd guy, with OJ Mayo being that guy on most nights - they don't have the 2 All-Star players, altough they do have the dominant offensive scorer, who looks better because he scores on the inside So when you look at us, we either need a stronger roster with people doing things very well. Or we need to acquire a player who can be a superstar. It's unbelievable that Memphis has surpassed us.

It's great, and sickening at the same time, seeing what we gave up. He plays faster than both JJ and Jamal, so imagine had he and Teague got more burn beside each other this season. He may not turn out to be great, but he may be at the very least a Rex Chapman or Larry Hughes type player. And God knows we could've used someone on this bench with those types of skills. Sund needs to be punched in the throat then kicked in the head for giving up Jordan. And LD needed to be DDT'd for not even playing the two kids more, if both showed these types of skills in practice. Instead, he's sticking with Bibby and Mo Evans, as we steadily wasted away in February.

Jamal in his rookie year 1050 minutes played 35% FG 35% 3FG 79% FT 44% TS 42% eFG 8.5 PER Jordan in his rookie year 1027 minutes played 38% FG 26% 3FG 87% FT 46% TS 42% eFG 11.8 PER Numbers Per-36 minutes Jamal ( on 18% usage ) 9.7 ppg 4.8 asst 3.1 rebs 1.5 stls 2.9 turnovers Jordan ( on 27% usage ) 17.2 ppg 4.1 asst 3.7 rebs 1.4 stls 2.9 turnovers Jamal significantly improved the next season before getting hurt. Then he settled into becoming the explosive, but inefficient scorer that he was known for, before his one great year in ATL. But that explosiveness kept him in the league for 10 years going. There is a certain "it factor" that surrounds Jordan and his game. I think the Wizards know this, which is why they basically let him shoot all the time in those meaningless games they were playing after the All-Star break. It's also the reason why they had him model the uniforms alongside John Wall, instead of some of their other young players like McGee or Blatche. The Wiz wanted Jordan to realize his potential, and how to score in the NBA. 19.4 ppg - 4.7 asst - 3.6 rebs as a starter in Washington Shot 39% FG . . and a poor 27.5% from 3. But shot 87% FT. A lot of his inefficiency came from him jacking up too many 3's. If he gets that in check and not take as many 3s, or if he becomes a better 3 point shooter, look out. Personally, I think every Hawk fan is going to be sick to their stomachs by this time next year, when they see the progression of Jordan. It'll just be another example of how this organization failed to evaluate a player, and now we have to see him blossom somewhere else. Even if he couldn't replace Jamal's production, he may have came close. And over the course of an 82 game season, there would've been a few games in which he flat out took over the game ( if Drew or whomever the coach is, didn't restrict him ). Oh well . . it is what it is. Hawks just need to add the right people, even if it means trading one or more of "the core". But it may have been one less player to add, had we kept "the player who shall remain nameless"

LOL @ this thread. So people want to discount the absolutey horrible outside shooting of Smith, and praise his hustle . . . but diss JJ because he supposedly didn't hustle like Smith did? Hilarious Fact The Hawks get SWEPT if not for JJ's hot shooting in Games 1 and 4. If I were to give out grades for what everybody did in the Chicago series, ( based on what was expected of them to do ) it would look like this: Teague: A- Zaza: B- Smith: B- Johnson: C Collins: C Crawford: D+ Horford D+ Marvin: F For the entire playoffs: Teague: A- Hinrich: B Johnson: B- Collins: C+ Smith: C+ Crawford: C+ Zaza: C Horford: C- Marvin: D-

Baller . . it's waaaaay more than that. He didn't just have a bad series, he had a bad playoffs. And worse, he had a bad playoffs playing his so called "natural position" . . . PF. And the scary part to me was how the opposing PF scored on him and limited him so easily on offense. So now the question is this . . . is he REALLY a better PF than Smith? I mean, that was once thought to be a no brainer in the favor of Horford. But now, you have to SERIOUSLY question that. If Horford is most productive when he plays center . . but he can't defend nor score on bigger stronger big men . . and he's less productive against playoff PFs . . and his post game is non existant against both Cs and PFs . . . . . . then what are we supposed to do? Sad to say it . . . but Horford got exposed BIG TIME in these playoffs.