TheNorthCydeRises

LOL @ it didn't work. We won 53 games, he made 3rd team All-NBA, and he had his best season as a Hawk. And for the first 4 games of the playoffs, this guy was looking like a superstar. But it all went downhill as the playoffs went on. The Hawks haven't regressed since we acquired the guy. And this is without a legit low post scoring threat, nor a PG to run the show. You're right in that his weakness as a player is that he doesn't draw enough fouls going to the hole. He could take a page from Crawford as well, in drawing fouls on his jumpshot. People like to place sole blame on a star player, even though they can see what the team lacks overall. Lebron desperately needs a guy who can score down on the blocks to keep the defense honest. And not an over the hill Shaq either. Which is why the Cavs will rue the day that they didn't get Amare. He was that #2 scorer that could score in the paint, that the team needed. Wade won a title with Shaq still a top 3 center in the league. He hasn't come close since, because the Heat have no low post scorers, nor a PG to take the playmaking pressure off of Wade. Kobe wasn't going anywhere with Andrew Bynum as the low post scoring option. But as soon as we he got Gasol, that team has been lights out the past 3 years. You need at least 2 All-Star players ( legit All-Stars ) plus a 3rd guy playig at a high level, plus great team defense, in order to win a championship. Hawk fans know this. If we lose an All-Star player of JJ's caliber, we're going to have to hope to draft an All-Star above JJ's caliber, seeing that NO SUPERSTAR PLAYERS want to come here. The best player we've signed in free agency in the past 5 years . . .was Speedy Claxton. Everybody else we had to trade for, or were scrub players that no one wanted. And even the good players we traded for, their team didn't want them anymore ( Bibby, Crawford ). BK didn't make a mistake. That was a borderline genius move by BK to get JJ for what he did. No good free agents wanted to come to Atlanta. He gave JJ an offer he couldn't refuse, and it paid off.

We don't know what the ceiling of this team is, because the Hawks never regressed under Woody.

Players that have averaged 21 points - 4 rebs - 4 assists in the past 5 seasons, and the number of times they've done it: Wade ( 5 ) Lebron ( 5 ) Kobe ( 5 ) JJ ( 4 ) T-Mac ( 3 ) Carter ( 3 ) Roy ( 2 ) Pierce ( 2 ) Paul ( 2 ) Arenas ( 2 ) Garnett ( 2 ) Ellis ( 1 ) Baron Davis ( 1 ) Ray Allen ( 1 ) 21 points - 4 rebs - 4 assists - shoot 45%+ Wade ( 5 ) Kobe ( 5 ) Lebron ( 5 ) JJ ( 2 ) Paul ( 2 ) Roy ( 2 ) Garnett ( 2 ) Carter ( 2 ) Pierce ( 1 )

You're right on point. That 6 yr contract has to be enough over whatever 5 year deal he can get, to at least make him blink. And it's important that if we do offer him a 6 year deal, that we don't low ball him. Don't offer something weak, like a 6 yr - 90 mill deal. It has to at least start at 5/85 or 6/100 in my opinion. The other thing to possibly worry about, are these other teams that are way under the cap possibly frontloading a deal for JJ. If they give him the maximum payout of his contract in that first year, with the following years descending in value, that could be a problem as wel. But only a few teams are even capable of doing that.

Of course they would've left. Remember, Phoenix initially was offering JJ a 5 yr - 45 mill deal. We come along, and offer him a 5 yr - 70 mill deal, with a 20 mill payment in that 1st year, to really entice him to come here. It wasn't until the last minute, that Phoenix upped their offer to something like 6 yrs - 70 million. But by that time, we had wooed him to the point that he was ready to leave. - it was his first big money contract - he goes from 3 mill in 04 - 05 . . to 20 mill in 05 - 06 - he gets to be the star of the team - he gets to play close to home Winning is great, but the NBA is also a business. And with JJ being so young, the money took precedent over winning. And it would have for those other guys too, if they were in the exact same situation as JJ. That's why the Lakers shipped Eddie Jones out of LA to give more time to Kobe. Once he proved his worth to the team, they didn't even hesitate to pay that man his first big money deal.

If JJ is brought back, he's going to get modest playing time at best. So you're looking at him only playing 7 - 13 minutes a night anyway. But if we lose JJ, he'll have to play a more significant role off the bench. We'll be asking him to be more of a scorer at that point. A lot of people are disillusioned by what Drew is saying about our new offense. Offenses are meant to be stopped. At that point, you're going to need guys who can create AND MAKE their own shot, to keep the offense flowing. Eddie Jordan in Philly proved that you need a little more than a great offensive system, in order for an offense to be great. You need people who can execute the offense, and MAKE SHOTS.

This dude had one of the best NCAA tournaments out of anybody last year. The upset Xavier pulled off against Kansas St was mainly because of his shot making. At best, we just drafted the next Ben Gordon,and an asset to the 2nd team. At worst, he's Randy Foye, decent, but nothing to fuss over. He's never going to be a stellar defender. But the kid can score. And on a team that lacked shot creators, having a guy like him on our squad helps. This is NOT a Salim Stoudamire type situation in which Salim was forced to play the point, in order to survive in this league. Jordan is a natural 2

The only problem I see . . . is if someone offers JJ the MAX over 5 years, and the Hawks 6 year offer is only modestly better, JJ may opt to leave the money on the table for us, and play somewhere else. I'm not quite sure what the max JJ can get from someone else on a 5 year deal. Say it's 5 yrs - 100 million. If the Hawks countered that with a 6 year - 105 million deal, would the extra 5 million over the life of the contract be enough to get JJ to stay, or would he opt to take the 5 year deal, because he'll make more money in the short term? I think that's the main question. That, and who actually goes after JJ.

LOL . . I went to school with Ed Gray when he was at Tennessee ( before he transferred to Cal ). As for who Jordan Crawford could become. That's easy. On the low end, he's probably a Randy Foye type. On the high end, he's a Ben Gordon type.

Sturt . . I agree with you in that the fans are kind of overreacting over this, seeing that this was kind of a sorry draft full of "prospects". Even the guy that I liked ( Varnado ), is viewed as a "project". But I have to agree with them that it does show a pattern of "cheapness". LOL @ selling a 2nd round pick for cash. Come on now. if anything, it was a horrible public relations move, even if it did make the owners quick money. My thing is this. Why even make the trade with Jersey to get their 2 picks, if you're not even going to use both of them? The fans aren't even reacting like this, if they know that all we have to work with was the #24 and #53 picks. But when they made that trade and got #27 and #31, the fans gave Sund props, hoping he'd snag 2 players, instead of just having that one pick. The cap hold for the 24th pick is $963,600. The cap hold for the 27th pick is $868,600. So they saved $95,000 by trading down AND acquired the #31 pick ( a 2nd RD pick in which doesn't have a cap hold until you sign them ). That was a good business move. We were in position to take the best player available AND take whatever big man they felt had the most potential to help us. I mean, they could've taken just about ANY GUY that was a PF or a C that they worked out for the past 2 weeks at #31, and the fans wouldn't have been too upset about it. But they blew it by not only giving up the pick, the gave it up for money. Once again, from a business aspect, it was a good move. But it does nothing to improve the apathy that exist between the fans and the owners whom they perceive as "cheap . . . very cheap". If that money that we made by selling the pick, is used in free agency, then we'll see what type of vet we can bring in here. I kind of seen this coming though, and I think it will get worse when JJ is either not re-signed, or given a low ball offer by the ASG ( 5 yrs - 75 mill ). Those owners are probably struggling with their own business ventures, and the revenue coming into Philips Arena isn't all that great either ( which I've written about for about 2 months now ). So while they've made moves to improve the team, they'll never go ALL OUT like some of the fans want them to. And while I've gotten onto the fans about "doing more" by going to the games, management can't afford to make public relations gaffes like this. LOL .. I mean dang. Take one of the "project centers". Take a PF like Lawal or Varnado or anybody. Hell, even take a flyer on Da'sean Butler ( even though he's hurt ), stash him, and see if he can help us in a year or two. But don't sell the pick. That's the worst possible move they could've done. Look at what Miami done with their 2nd round picks: Dexter Pittman Jarvais Varnado Da'sean Butler ( who is hurt, but was a projected 1st round pick ) Latavious Williams They basically gutted their entire team, so that they can be a major player in free agency. But they've now stockpiled their team with guys in the 2nd round that will have a chance to help them. And NONE OF THEM count against the cap, as long as they aren't signed. Miami is 43 million under the cap right now, and can add 2 MAX players or 3 near max players, if they want to. If just 2 of those 2nd round picks turn into decent players that you can put into the rotation, the Heat will be elated. Meanwhile, the Hawks make a move to act like they wanted to add multiple players, but end up selling the last pick to line their pockets. I don't think this is a reason not to support the Hawks ( like some fans are talking about ), but I do understand why they are mad.

How was Belkin right when . . . - JJ makes 3rd team All-NBA this year - JJ makes the All-Star team 4 years in a row - Helps guide the Hawks to 3 playoff appearances in the 5 years he was here . - If JJ leaves, he'll still go down as possibly one of the top 5 to 7 players in franchise history How many players in the league can say that they've done ALL of this? JJ is most certaintly a #1 option in this league. Anybody that the other team has to double and triple team to try to stop, is a #1 option. What JJ isn't . . is a superstar. And outside of a few games, didn't play well durng the playoffs. Put it like this . . . if we DON'T make that trade, we're probably forced to sign Al Harrington to a long term deal, just to try to field somewhat of a team. At that point, it would be up to BK to NOT MISS on draft picks.

The problem is that Horford is still on his rookie contract. So you would have to trade another player along with Horford ( i.e. - Crawford ) . . instead of a Smoove deal, when you may also have to trade another player, but it could be a Mo Evans, to make a deal work. People keep wanting to trade Marvin and Bibby or even Zaza, but those guys aren't going to become attractive/tradeable contracts until next summer. I know some people want "excitement", but I'd rather have "wins". So the question to me is . . . which duo would WIN more? CP3 + Smoove . . . or CP3 + Horford?

I guess people forget this. Part of the reason Dwight killed us, is because he didn't have to worry about Smoove rotating over to challenge his shot. Smoove was way out in the corner, worrying about Lewis knocking down threes.

JTB . . . you're simply trying to put a square peg in a round hole. You've seen that guy guard people out on the perimeter. It's not a good matchup for him because of his lack of lateral quickness. Smith is a north-south runner. If he's going straight ahead, he's one of the fastest players in the league. But start moving him east-west ( from side to side ), you limit how effective the guy can be. You play him at PF, and Smith has a chance to become an All-Star next year. You play Smith at SF, and you have to ask him to overcome some MAJOR WEAKNESSES in his game, just for him to be an average to above average SF. People like to blame every shortcoming this team has or had on Woody, and not the player himself. 80% of Hawk fans agree that it would be a DISASTER if you put Smith at the 3. - Smith is one of the worst outside shooters in the league. - He hardly ever gets blocks away from the rim, even when he's rotating out to players - He doesn't have great ball handling ability ( for a 3 ), but pretty good for a 4. Why would you want to put that kid in that position as a 3, when you know the strengths he brings to the table as a 4? - He's a premier shot blocker at the 4 - He can take most 4's off the dribble and get to the rim and score - He changes a lot more shots of guards and SFs driving to the hole when playing the 4 - He's a much better rebounder at the 4. Why take him from what he does best, just to simply play him at the 3? A lot of you are going to be in for a rude awakening this upcoming season. With Woody gone, the truth is going to be exposed about some of these players, because fans won't have the "Woody Excuse" to use anymore. If they become better players, give Drew his props and I'll admit that you guys were right about Woody. But if they don't get better, or regress as players, don't blame Drew for not making them better. Blame the player for simply not being able to get it done.

I agree. Biendrins is not a good defensive player, especially when it comes to bigger guys who can score. People act like he's much bigger than Smoove, but the only thing Biendrins has over Smoove, is maybe 2 inches of height. He's not heavier than Smoove, nor is he a better defender at the rim than Smoove. He's definitely not better offensively than Smoove. LOL . . Biendrins, in the little time he played last year because of injury, shot 4 - 25 from the FT line. 4 - 25 That's 16% Golden St would do a Smoove for Biendrins trade with the quickness, and laugh at us as soon as the deal is finalized.

Johnny . . that's bad perimeter defense then. Because all those SFs do, is make a quick move and pull up for a jumper once they get space, or they go all the way to the hole, forcing another defender to rotate over while Smith is trailing for a block, which sees the driving player pass to an open man. You MIGHT get away with playing Smoove at the 3 for very short stretches. But as a starter? Heck no.

That's the point. He CAN'T guard quick perimeter 3's. He could still be a helpside defender. But if Smith was one of our best perimeter defenders, don't you think he'd be matched up against the other team's star SF on a nightly basis? No, that job usually goes to Marvin, with JJ ending up on him. Putting Smith at the 3 takes him away from rebounding the basketball at a high rate. You would essentially turn that guy into the bad version of Andrei Kirilenko if we moved him to the 3.

But that's only because Maggette was playing the 4 when he came into that game and had to be matched up against Smith. And Maggette had 18 points and 7 rebounds . .in 22 minutes. So isn't that an indictment on Smith's abilities to defend a 3?

Carrying our weight = supporting the team when it shows that it can play real good ball at home Fans like you aren't the problem Dr. Z. You more than carry your weight by being a season ticket holder. The "problem fans" are those fans that find every excuse in the world NOT to support the Hawks by going to the games. And there are far more of them in Atlanta than people, even loyal fans like yourself, want to admit to. And some of them might be on this board. Which is why they get mad at me and others who bring this topic up. I still don't understand where all of the apathy comes from? Some of it . . . yes. But not all of it. - 65 wins the last 2 years at home - 90 wins at home during the "Horford era" - 3 consecutive playoff appearances - 2 flame-outs in the 2nd round The last 2.5 to 3 years should've been some of the most enjoyable years Hawk fans have had since the mid 90s. But some people are still miserable. Fans are so quick to say things like . . "we pay the players' salaries". Why do fans even say this, if they don't believe that not spending money going to the games wouldn't have the opposite effect . . in which management looks to not add or reduce payroll because of the lack of revenue coming in? ( see New Orleans ).

Yeah . . I would have to say that I would do that too. You acquire CP3, and you may essentially change the mind of JJ of going anywhere. PG - Paul / Bibby G - Johnson / Crawford . . Evans F - Marvin / possibly Childress PF - Horford / 2nd round pick C - Zaza / free agent pick up The hole is still on the frontline ( even a bigger one now ), but with Crawford being an expiring contract, along with Evans, you may be able to do something in regards to that as the trade deadline approaches. You want to create a buzz in Atlanta . . . go out and get Chris Paul, even at the cost of Josh Smith ( whose box office prowess is overrated ). I'd hate to lose Smoove. But I've always said that if I had to lose him, I'd want to lose him to another star player. Paul may be the superstar that Atlanta fans may be willing to come out to see, while Smoove may provide just enough excitement in New Orleans, to excite that fan base along with Collison.

LOL . . . it'll be allright man. Just understand that if New Orleans is looking for expiring contracts, we don't have many of those to deal. Now if they're looking for talent, we'll have to trade Josh Smith + somebody else, to get Paul. If we're serious about getting Paul, that's who we'd have to give up.

The history of the draft suggests that a BPA at that range, is usually an undersized PF or a high scoring guard who people may have some doubts about in other areas. So see who fits this profile, and those are probably the candidates to choose from.

I heard on Fox Sports radio from one of the hosts taking about the Lakers, that owner Jerry Buss is relutant to pau Phil Jackson 12 million a year, because the Lakers lost somewhere between 20 - 30 million last year. But for the Lakers, you're talking about a loss in profit, which was 50 milllion ( according to the radio host ), to around 20 million. The dip in revenue could encompass anything from - lower ticket sales - which in turn would cause a dip in concession money - less in-arena advertising being bought - less merchandising bought And because the ASG basically runs the entire Philips Arena operation, you're talking about everything else the arena hosts, from other sporting events to concerts. So you're right. This could merely be a loss in projected or actual profit, rather than the ASG just bleeding out the arms in money. Either way, it's probably safe to say that they're making only a modest profit, or are losing money overall ( which wouldn't surprise people )

Hmmmmmm . . . . . I wonder who else on this board has made the argument about the fans "carrying their weight"?

Let's just say that he doesn't have a great eye for talent, and likes to gamble on project-type centers.