TheNorthCydeRises

Yep. That's why I was shocked when I heard the length and the money being paid per year. I think this also makes Drew more easy to FIRE, should something go terribly wrong next year. That way, they'd only be on the hook for his 1.5 million next year. I thought a "cheap" Drew or Casey contract would see the ASG giving one of them a 3 yr - 6.5 million dollar deal. But they got away with giving Drew a 2 yr - 2.5 million deal, with an optional 2 mill in yr 3. I think the ASG would counter the "cheap" argument by saying . . . "well, those other teams went "cheap" too. Chicago hired Thibedeau . . New Orleans hired Monty Williams . . and Philly hired a cheap retread in Doug Collins. Only the Nets "spurlged", and signed Avery to a bigger deal. Because the players know and seemingly like Drew, the issue of him being underminded may be a non-issue. Drew's problem is that he has no job security whatsoever. If we come back as full strength, and this team is playing .500 or slightly below ball, he could easily get fired.

That's because it is very difficult to do. And Jennings was very inconsistent last year and only shot 37% FG, although he did shoot a decent 37% from three. He's not going to be allowed to take that many shots, if he's going to continue to shoot sub 40%. Ultimately, Jennings is going to either have to become a deadly outside shooter, or a better finisher going to the hole, in order to be a big time PG. Like I said Buzz, all I did was post the facts of the situation. Nothing sensational about my post. And those 4 players you mentioned had better seasons than Jennings did. People should be just happy to get solid production from Teague, and not expect him to be a top 10 PG overnight.

Varnado is my guy. He won't be taken that high though. I wonder how he worked out with us today? All I know, is that if Varnado gets with a team that needs a backup PF, you're going to see this guy instantly produce as a defensive player and rebounder. You won't see him have a Dejuan Blair like impact, but his defensive impact will be felt almost immediately. If we're still trying to be the "highlight factory", Terrico White is probably the dude to get.

And that's the reason to do it . . . ticket sales. It would at least initially peak interest in him and the team. But it would probably stunt the growth of Teague once again. The casual Hawks fan needs to be "excited". AI would at least excite those fans, and possibly bring in more money to the organization in the short term.

This is Mike Conley of Memphis, the player some people wanted to be taken instead of Al Horford. If Teague can give us what Conley gave the Grizzlies in his 2nd season, I'd be elated. As for a Teague / Terry comparison . . Terry saw his usage jump from 19.2 to 25.1, and in the process, become the leading scorer for the Hawks. Like I said . . for Teague to reach the potential that some of you think he can reach, you may have to get rid of the 2 most dominant ball handlers on the team ( Joe Johnson and Jamal Crawford ). Would people actually be willing to do that, just to develop Jeff Teague to his potential?

Exactly. But you know how it goes man. Sometimes, we all overhype these players. - Marvin was a potential Tracy McGrady ( or as I once thought, a potential Glen Rice . . if he developed the 3 point shot ) - Josh Smith was/is a potential superstar ( or as our owner says, "the closest thing to Lebron in this league" ) - Sheldon could be Ben Wallace - Salim could be Vinnie Johnson - Horford can be Karl Malone - and on, and on, and on So now Teague can be Deron Williams. Not impossible. But a lot of things would have to be developed in order for him to even approach that level of play.

There's nothing sensational about my post. I simply posted the facts. And you obviously didn't look at that link. If you did, you didn't pay attention to what you saw. So for the 4 guys you listed, here's what they did in those seasons in which they produced that number: Mo Williams 2006 - 07: 17.3 ppg 6.1 asst 45% FG ( 15.1 FGA ) 35% 3FG 86% FT ( 2.7 FTA ) 2nd leading scorer on Milwaukee behind Redd 2007 - 08: 17.2 ppg 6.3 asst 48% FG ( 13.9 FG attempts ) 39% 3FG 86% FT ( 2.9 FT attempts ) 2nd leading scorer on Milwaukee behind Redd 2009 - 10: 15.8 ppg 5.3 asst 44% FG ( 12.4 FG attempts ) 43% 3FG ( 2.3 makes per game ) 89% FT ( 2.9 FT attempts ) 2nd leading scorer on Cleveland behind Lebron ***************************** Aaron Brooks 2009 - 10: 19.6 ppg 5.3 asst 43% FG ( 16.2 FG attempts ) 40% 3FG ( 2.5 makes per game ) 82% FT ( 3.6 FT attempts ) 2nd leading scorer on Houston behind Kevin Martin **************************** Mike James 2005 - 06: 20.3 ppg 5.8 asst 47% FG ( 15.5 FG attempts ) 44% 3FG ( 2.1 makes per game ) 84% FT ( 4.3 FT attempts ) 2nd leading scorer on Raptors behind Bosh ***************************** Jameer Nelson ( hurt for 1/2 of the season ) 16.7 pts 5.4 asst 50% FG ( 12.6 FG attempts ) 45% 3FG ( 2 makes per game ) 89% FT ( 2.3 FT attempts ) 4th leading scorer on Magic ( .1 behind Turkoglu, who averaged 16.8 ) ***************************** I don't why you listed those 4 names Buzz. Those 4 guys had MUCH BETTER YEARS than what Jennings had last year. The season Jennings had was the MINIMUM STANDARD on that list. If nbadraft.net was right in their NBA comparison for Teague, then the Hawks will have their PG of the future for years to come. But it's interesting to note where they gave Teague the most high marks, and the most low marks. High Marks of 9: Atleticism, Quickness, and Potential . . . these are things we all covet about the kid. Low Marks of 6: NBA Ready and Defense . . . which are things that I definitely see the kid wasn't ready for last year. Everybody is rooting for Teague. But some of us aren't going to go crazy over him either. The crazy thing is . . . if Teague is to excel, we may have to get rid of both JJ AND Jamal Crawford, seeing that they both tend to dominate the ball. With both here, he may never reach his potential. With one here, he still may not, because the other guy is still going to need the ball. And by what we saw of Teague this year, he's not an effective player when the ball isn't in his hands, and is relegated to being a spot-up shooter. That's why the jury is definitely out on Teague.

Normally, the value pick this late in the 1st round, is either going to be an undersized, but very good in college PF . . or a high scoring guard who has the ability to create and make his own shot. Centers that are taken below the top 20 are almost doomed to fail, or not be nearly as effective as people would want to think. When you see stuff like "after the top 15 or 20 picks, we don't know where these guys are going", that doesn't mean that it's a "deep draft". It means that these NBA scouts really don't see any difference between a guy projected to be #20 and a guy projected to be #40. That's why you're just better off taking the best player available. Two interesting articles to check out from draftexpress are these: Situational Statistics: This year's Power Forward crop Situational Statistics: This year's Center crop And if you think we need a small foward ( who might be a BPA ), see what they say about them as well: Situational Statistics: This year's Small Forward crop

It's a shame that some of these posters give you negative posts for posting THE TRUTH. Everybody, including Teague's skeptics, want the kid to succeed. But just because some fans have delusional aspirations about a player, shouldn't shield them from what the real truth is. Here's Truth #1: For Teague to average 15 ppg and 5 assists next season, he'll probably have to be the 3rd leading scorer on the Hawks. Does anybody in their right mind believe that this kid can go from sporadic play, to our 3rd leading scorer . . with guys like Jamal Crawford, Al Horford, Josh Smith, and possibly Joe Johnson on the team? Here's Truth #2: These are the players who are 6-2 and under, who have posted a 15 point - 5 assist season in the past 5 years. I'll also list the number of times they've done this ( in parenthesis ): Tony Parker ( 5 ) Chris Paul ( 5 ) Allen Iverson ( 3 ) Mo Williams ( 3 ) Stephon Marbury ( 2 ) Andre Miller ( 2 ) Mike Bibby ( 1 ) Aaron Brooks ( 1 ) Mike James ( 1 ) Brandon Jennings ( 1 ) Jameer Nelson ( 1 ) Jason Terry ( 1 ) http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&type=per_game&per_minute_base=36&is_playoffs=N&year_min=2006&year_max=2010&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=0&height_max=74&lg_id=&franch_id=&is_active=&is_hof=&pos=&qual=&c1stat=pts_per_g&c1comp=gt&c1val=15&c2stat=ast_per_g&c2comp=gt&c2val=5&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&order_by=pts_per_g That's it. 12 guys of that size in the last 5 years have accomplished this feat. And look who is at the bottom of that list of the link I posted. Do any of you honestly think that Teague can be on par with what Brandon Jennings did last year? For Jeff to become even remotely a 15 - 5 guy, he's either going to have to become a very good 3 point shooter, or damn near unstoppable going to the hole. And he showed the potential to be NEITHER last year. The major thing that may prevent this, is his low trajectory on his jumpshot. He's definitely going to have to develop a floater to be an effective scorer. Just be realistic people. CBAreject and Final Quest posted the most realistic stuff here. Right now, he's a change of pace guard. If he averaged 10 ppg and 4 assists, people should be estatic, as long as he didn't shoot a terrible percentage. Don't put great expectations on the kid, until he shows that he can be a lead guard. Personally, if he can come into a game and affect it like Spud Webb used to do back on those 1980s Hawks teams, I'll be happy with that. I just want the kid to impact a game, even if it's only for short stretches. Expecting him to be Deron Williams is unrealistic as hell.

I knew he was older than JJ, but not 31.

Fans have to understand that we can offer Salmons ( or anybody else ) no more than the MLE, even if we don't re-sign JJ. You're talking about 6 million or less. And it would take the full MLE to possibly sign him. If you're Salmons, you were pretty much in the perfect situation in Milwaukee. Even with Bogut and Redd possibly back, Salmons is still going to be a big part of the offense. Salmons was due to make 5.8 million next year. If he opts out, he's not looking to take a pay cut. If we're going to get a quality player for JJ, it will more than likely have to happen via a sign and trade.

Now here's the question. List the offensive strengths of these players Teague JJ Marvin Smith Horford Crawford Evans Zaza Bibby This is the core that will possibly make up the team, if JJ is re-signed. So what are the offensive strengths of each player? Not potentially . . . actual offensive strengths.

coachx . . . waaaay too much is made out of the ISO-JJ issue. Honestly, Kobe was doing exactly what JJ has done his entire 5 year career in Atlanta. Draw the double team to him by holding the ball, then passing it to the open man. Kobe was probing looking for his own shot even on possessions in which he passed the ball. When it wasn't there, he passed. The same thing that JJ does. Some Hawk fans act like JJ neglected everybody else on the floor, and just looked for his own shot all game. JJ could've taken MANY MORE SHOTS if he wanted to. The 1st halves of games, he almost always deferred to his teammates to try to get them involved. If they played well, you'd see JJ post a big assist number. If they didn't, and the team fell behind, what do people expect the star of the team to do? Keep passing the ball to people who weren't scoring? For the most part, you'll rarely see JJ just keep firing away excessively if he's ice cold. I think that is going to be the wake-up call going into next season, especially if we don't have JJ here. You're really going to see who can be consistent contributors to the offense without JJ setting them up. Hopefully, Teague can step in and be the playmaker if JJ is gone. Unless Horford and Smoove become better ISO scorers down on the block, Jamal Crawford will be the only guy who can consistently get his own shot. And because of that, you're going to be seeing a lot of ISO-CRAW, if other guys are struggling. It's hard to keep passing to players, if they're not hitting shots or making plays.

If that's the motivation these players are going to use to give more effort on defense, then we'll never be a top level playoff defense. Tonight's game is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. Kobe and the Lakers were horrible in that 1st half. Then they get down by 12. Great offense wasn't going to get them back in that game. They had to literally grind that game out and see if they could put themselves in position to win. And that's exactly what they did. Like my sig says . . . REBOUNDING WINS CHAMPIONSHIPS. And without the effort that the Lakers put forth on the boards, especially Kobe with his 15 rebounds, that team would've been dead in the water.

So in the offensive view of the 4 factors, we're 12th - 1st - 5th - and 23rd in those categories But in the defensive view of the 4 factors, we were 16th - 18th - 24th - and 7th in thsoe categories. Yet, people are more concerned about the offense than they are the defense? Like I said, I have no problem with what Coach Drew wants to do on offense. But he and this front office DAMN WELL better address this defense, which is a below average defense for a playoff team. And it may take more than a change in scheme to get the defense right. He may have to bring in better players to get the job done, especially when it comes to rebounding the basketball.

Defensive 4 factors defensive eFG% - .496 ( 16th ) . . . the league average was .501 Here's something that's interesting. Of the 16 playoff teams, we had the 15th worst eFG% on defense. Only Portland at .502, was worse. Two other teams ( Dallas and Denver ), posted .495 eFG%. All 3 of the Western confernce teams lost in the 1st round, and we had to go 7 games with Milwaukee, in those games in which we couldn't stop them. turnover % - .132 ( tied 18th ) . . . we didn't cause a lot of turnovers as a defense. When we did force a turnover, we were off to the races. When we didn't, the game got real difficult for us. defensive rebound% - .727 ( 24th ) . . . this was the KILLER folks. And Exodus noticed this as early as December. As the Hawks got worse and worse rebounding the other teams misses, we saw this team come back down to earth from that outstanding start. I remember this stat being as low as 26th in the league at one time. The commitment and flat out laziness that was show in rebounding the basketball, is something that Drew needs to address IMMEDIATELY. 2nd chance points KILLED this team at times. free throws to field goal attempts ratio: .208 ( tied 7th ) . . . I don't know if this is good or bad. I guess it's good, because we didn't give people cheap points all the time by fouling them. But then again, we should've.

OK Coach . . . let's do it this way. Since you took out the high point game of that series ( 98 pts in Game 2 by the Hawks ), let's take out the low point game by Orlando ( 98 pts in Game 4 ). So if you do that . . . in 3 of the 4 games vs Orlando . . the Magic averaged a whopping 110 POINTS As much as people has talked about the offense in that series, the defense in that series was absolutely PITIFUL. Even moreso than the offense, in my opinion. Let's go one more. In the Milwaukee series, these were the averages for each team when they won and when they lost. ATL WINS - 95 ppg . . . . ATL LOSSES - 93 ppg MIL WINS - 103 ppg . . . . MIL LOSSES - 80 ppg Look at the disparity in that series. A series that many will remember for the embarassment of Game 3 and the meltdown in Game 5 . . . but not the absolutely stellar defensive 3rd quarter in Game 6 and the continued lockdown defense in Game 7. In wins and losses, our ppg output only decreased by 2 points. But for Milwaukee, it decreased by 23 POINTS PER GAME. That either means that the Milwaukee offense just couldn't get it done . . . or . . . the Hawks defense showed up in those games and shut them down. Anybody who watched that series knows that it was our DEFENSE that won that series for us. Just like it does for just about every playoff team in the NBA. At this time of year, it's much more about defending at a very high level, than it is about scoring a lot of points. And for the Hawks going into next season, the defense better be addressed just as much, if not more, than the offense.

Offensive 4 factors FG% - 50.6% ( 12th in the league ) * This was mainly due to guys like JJ and Crawford being able to make difficult shots, and Horford and Josh getting into a rhythm offensively. It was also due to our tremendous ability to get out and run, after we got stops. When we were in transition, we were an unstoppable team just about. Even if other guys couldn't pull their weight, on most nights, these 4 were good enough offensively to help us win games. Turnover %: .114 ( 1st in the league ) * This was due to the low risk type of offense we ran, which pretty much saw us not completely waste possessions without getting a shot up. Offensive rebound %: .282 ( 5th in the league ) * Horford and Smoove, and sometimes even Zaza, helped to keep possessions alive when they hit the offensive boards. The ability to get 2nd chance opportunities to score, was a big part of our offense. Free throw to field goal attempts ratio: .213 ( 23rd in the league ) * The achilles heel of last year's team. This was something we used to be real good at ( when we had Josh Childress here ). But last year, it was definitely a weak spot. Our inability to get to the free throw line, especially when we went through scoring droughts, directly led to us blowing leads left and right. @ Coachx . . . . when you look at the 2nd round series with Orlando, the presence of Dwight Howard took away the #1 thing we did well as an offense. Actually . . he took away 2 things. - On the offensive end, we had absolutely no answer for him. Because he was able to score at will, those made baskets prevented us from scoring in transition . . something we did extremely well as a team, and probably our best asset as an offense. - On the defensive end, he forced the Hawks into being a jumpshooting team . . . and when we missed shots, he gobbled up the rebounds. This prevented us from doing another thing we did well as an offense . . which was gobble up offensive rebounds for 2nd shots. So when JJ and Crawford couldn't keep us in the game with their shot making, and the other guys missed wide open shots as well, it was a recipe for disaster. When we didn't double Howard, he killed us. When we did, their shooters killed us. No time right now . . . but I'll get into the defensive aspects later on today,

I understand that people want more movement in the offense. I understand that people don't want to see ISOs ( which won't happen, because all teams run ISO to some extent ). But the main reason we didn't give a better showing in the playoffs, was because our defense was pizz poor. Remember my sig: OFFENSE sells TICKETS . . DEFENSE wins GAMES . . REBOUNDING wins CHAMPIONSHIPS. This comes from Pat Head Summitt . . womens basketball coach at the University of Tennessee. And she's dead on target when she says this. Boston doesn't have a great offensive team. But when they win games, they do 2 things very well. Defend and rebound the basketball. Ironically, this was the philosophy of the departing coach. And when we did these 2 things, we won games . . a lot of games. But in the playoffs, we couldn't stop anybody. I like what I hear from Coach Drew about the offense. But even with a new offense, it won't mean a thing if we don't become a much better defensive team. We'll simply be a good offensive team that can't stop anybody when it matters. The coach, and especially the front office, must address our defense and rebounding issues. The focus can't mainly be on the offense, because it wasn't the ofense causing us to lose games. It was the DEFENSE.

His post is probably getting negatives for a number of reasons: 1) JJ can't effectively guard PGs. For short stretches, yes. For the whole game? NO. 2) He's essentially the PG already. He's led this team in assists 4 of his 5 years in Atlanta, and he's averaged over 5 assists while here. 3) Fans DESPERATELY want to see if Teague can run the team. 4) Having JJ play more PG may hurt the team, because it will see him passing the ball even more to guys who can consistently knock down open jumpers. 5) People need to be setting JJ up for more easy shots.

You guys already know that those things are going to be EVERYWHERE after the World Cup. Some college football team will pass out about 20,000 of those things, and that will be all it takes to open up the floodgates. If you see them at a UGA or G-Tech game, they're definitely showing up at Philips.

LOL . . what? 9 and 7 in 15 minutes? Since when has Shelden produced at that high of a level? He might not average 9 and 7 if given 25 minutes of play. Shelden highly disappointed me while he was a Hawk. The one thing I thought he could do, was bring some toughness to the team. He played soft as hell while he was in Atlanta, even letting Solo steal playing time away from him. He's better than Joe Smith or Jason Collins . . but just barely.

Now . . what are Marvin's strengths? It used to be the 21 foot jumper. It's not even that anymore. So what are his strengths?

Well . . . I tried to tell you what was up about a month ago, so this shouldn't be a shock. http://www.hawksquawk.net/community/index.php/topic/347346-is-this-a-championship-level-fan-base/page__p__449799__hl__championship%20fan%20base__fromsearch__1&#entry449799 As for the hire . . . lol . . I'll say NO . . only because I didn't think they would go with an assistant on Woody's staff to replace Woody. But Drew has my support. He's the coach now, so he'll get a fair shake from me, to show me how he can possibly make this team better.

Bus . . . those teams didn't lose because of ISO offense. Those teams lost because they played pizz poor defense in those series. Golden St had won 6 out of 7 games vs Dallas before that playoff series. The problem with Dallas vs Golden St, is that Golden St's "smallball" rendered Dallas' best defensive player useless ( Desagna Diop ). Add that to the fact that the Mavs didn't have a big time low post scorer, and it was a recipe for disaster vs the Warriors. Dallas couldn't stop Golden St. That's why they lost. It was the worst possible matchup for the Mavs, and they couldn't overcome it. The same goes for Cleveland in 2009. They couldn't stop Orlando in that ECF and lost in 6 games. Dwight Howard killed that team. And that's the reason why Cleveland went out and got Shaq. Both of those teams had major defensive breakdowns in that series. And that's the same problem with the Hawks. We can implement whatever offense you want, but if this team doesn't improve DRASTICALLY on defense ( and securing defensive rebounds ), the Hawks won't advance any further than what we have. We'd essentially be Toronto.