TheNorthCydeRises

Chill may not be more than a 10 of Diamonds. In Sund's radio interview, he flat out stated that he's going to give him the qualifying offer ( which I believe now it's a little under 5 million ). If that's the case, Chill may decline that. If only the qualifying offer is presented, Sund is basically trying to pay him for one year, and not draw up a longet term deal. And that might not sit well with Chill at all. At this point, you're hopefully talking sign and trade . . if he doesn't decide to play his final year in Greece. And THEN, you have the situation with Marvin. Is Chill going to want to start over Marvin ( probably yes ). So do you pretty much guarantee him a starting spot? And even if you do that, is he going to be cool with making LESS than Marvin? I may have to downgrade him to an 8 of Clubs. Chill isn't someone we can count on being here next year. His situation is delicate, like the rest of the guys.

That speaks volumes about the fan base in ATL . . . which is partially why I started that thread the other day.

Nope . . I'm just wondering why we didn't see an uptick in interest across the fan base, despite this team improving from not even reaching .500 for 8 years, to being a top 10 team in the league all last year. Attendance wise, the Hawks were basically viewed in the same way as those 37 win Hawks teams. No uptick, despite us being a top 4 team in the East from wire to wire. But now, people want management to invest heavily into the team to make it a championship level team? And even if we become legit, someone will have to be at least a borderline superstar to bring in more fans . . because ATLiens need winning + a superstar to keep their interest? But then again, maybe that was what's wrong with those Nets NBA Finals teams that you cited. The strength of those teams was defense. Their star player was Jason Kidd, a passing the ball star. The rest of that team consisted of good players. And although neither squad was a great team ( 52 and 49 wins ), they were good enough in a rapidly declining East to get to the Finals. That team, while good, wasn't enough to keep the interest of the NETS fan base. Management did its job though. They constructed a winner. The fans didn't come out still, so they tried to acquire a "box office" draw in Vince Carter. As the team still didn't win, and with them in serious luxury tax land, they had to break it completely down to the bone. Management did their job in constructing a postseason winner. But the fans still didn't support the team like they should. They weren't a championship caliber fan base. As for your SEC team analogy, you're right. As a U of Tennessee Alumni, I defenitely know that 8 - 5 is damn near UNACCEPTABLE in Knoxville. Even 9 - 4 puts people on edge. But the Hawks, with their history of losing, is more comparable to the Ole Miss Rebels, than they are to the powerhouses of the SEC. At Ole Miss . . 8 - 5 sparks the fan base, especially if they pull off a big win at home. 8 - 5 gives hope that all of those past 4 - 8 . . 6 - 6 seasons, can be put into the closet. You could say the same thing about programs like Kentucky, Mississippi St, and Vanderbilt. Those fan bases see a tremendous increase in support, when they play close to the level of the big boys. There are no banners in Philips, and probably won't unless the Hawks get extremely lucky with a trade, a draft pick, or the development of a player into a superstar.

But that's just it. 84% capacity is not good. The 84% range is what .500 teams draw. Those teams will sell out when the big boys come through, because fans like to see those teams. But when it comes to watching their team vs an average or poor team, they don't show up. Borderline playoff teams usually draw in the upper 80%. Solid playoff teams usually draw in the mid 90%. Elite or championship level teams usually draw close to 100% or even more than 100%. Most of the fan bases around the league will go and support their team, if the team is at solid playoff level. The challenge for us as a fan base is this: If we post another 50+ win season, can the Hawks draw at least 92% capacity or higher? Because as important as performing in the playoffs are, you can't even get to the playoffs if you don't perform well during the regular season. And if you're not performing well during the regular season, the fans will stop coming anyway. So people just can't discount the regular season like it means nothing. It definitely means something. Performing well during the regular season is what will keep a fan base's interest during the season. Performing well during the playoffs is what will motivate fans to look forward to the following season,which makes postseason basketball vital as well.

LOL . . that's a damn shame then. That almost proves that we as a fan base are incapable of becoming a "championship caliber" one. I'm saying all of this, by the way, because I don't think for one second that the ASG are going to hire Avery Johnson. And people should not be shocked if they choose not to hire him. If by some miracle that they do, I'm really going to be interested if the fans will respond to that by going to more of the games. We've had a lot of excuses as to why people don't go, from traffic, to unemployment, to fan apathy, to ticket prices, etc. So we'll see if bringing in a named coach will help do the trick . . or if those excuses will continue, even if we continue to win.

What about filling up Philips . . on an early Sunday evening . . with good weather . . but we're playing Milwaukee? Does the same apply? ( Paid attendance at that game was 16,381 . . . but there is no way that more than 12 or 13,000 actually showed up ) You guys don't know it, but all of you are actually proving my point on if we are . . or even can be . . a "championship fan base". Basically, almost all of you are saying that the stars have to align perfectly, in order to see the fans to elevate their commitment and passion toward the Hawks. Almost all of you are saying that we either have to bring in a superstar ( and not just any superstar . . . an electrifying one . . Tim Duncan in his prime wouldn't work in ATL, according to you guys ) . . . . . or we have to make a big time run in the playoffs ( get to the NBA Finals ) . . . . . in order for the fans to get to that next level of commitment. Otherwise, fan apathy will always exist and people will find reasons to NOT go to games, instead of going to the game because they are Hawk fans and want to support the team. That's why I asked the question I did. If such fan apathy exists, why expect management to go all out to put a championship product on the floor? People want management to spend whatever they can to construct a possible championship caliber team, even though the fan participation really haven't increased as the Hawks have gotten much better the past 2 years. For Atlanta . . being good, isn't good enough . . even if we were horrible the 10 years previously. We have to be either good and exciting with a superstar player . . . or borderline great with a championship caliber team. Simply being good and being relevant in the league again, isn't good enough, despite the long losing spell. It is what it is I guess.

The question with Horford is . . . if we ever got our hands on a good defensive center, could Horford really "blow up" at PF? Blow up as in . . . could he be a go-to-guy offensively at PF? If so, then Smoove will be expendible. If not, then we still have to keep Smoove to supplement Horford and protect him on defense. When you see what Lamar Odom does for the Lakers, Smoove ( if he accepts it ), could excel in a 6th man role, with him doing major damage vs backup PFs. And at the end of games, he's probably going to be on the floor anyway. He'll get his 30 - 35 minutes a game regardless. It's just that his playing time will be dispersed differently. But we'd have to obtain that elusive defensive center, before we even think about all of this.

Defensive Tale of the tape: Horford: 6 - 10 . . 245 lb per 48 defensive eFG% . . . 50.6% ( which is good ) per 48 defensive iFG% . . . 60% ( which is bad ) . . . iFG% = inside FG% ( defense around the rim ) per 48 defensive ppg of opposing center . . . 16.3 ppg ( which is good ) defensive PER of opposing center . . . 16.5 ( which is good ) blocks per 48 . . . 1.5 ( which is average ) Perkins: 6-10 . . 280 lb per 48 defensive eFG% . . . 50.6% ( which is good ) per 48 defensive iFG% . . . 49% ( which is excellent ) per 48 defensive ppg of opposing center . . . 18,8 ppg ( which is average ) defensive PER of opposing center . . . 16.6 ( which is good ) blocks per 48 . . . 2.9 ( which is good ) Just for comparison sake: Dwight Howard: 6-11 . . 265 lb per 48 defensive eFG% . . . 48.4% ( which is excellent ) per 48 defensive iFG% . . . 46% ( which is excelent ) per 48 defensive ppg of opposing center . . . 16.5 ( which is good ) defensive PER of opposing center . . . 13.8 ( which is excellent ) blocks per 48 . . . 3.8 ( which is excellent ) Emeka Okafor: 6-10 . . 255 lb per 48 defensive eFG% . . . 58.6% ( which is bad ) per 48 defensive iFG% . . .55% ( which is average ) per 48 defensive ppg of opposing center . . . 21.3 ( which is bad ) defensive PER of opposing center . . . 22.2 ( which is horrible ) blocks per 48 . . . 2.5 ( which is good ) ( Statistically . . . Okafor was a worse defensive player than David Lee last year. And Lee is pretty bad. The only thing he did better than Lee, was block shots. Okafor probably wouldn't be the person to start at center, especially with that contract, if he's going to play matador defense. Amazingly, Okafor may have been the worst defensive cener in the league last year. )

It's cool . . . . . . cause my name isn't Eddie.

Going from 8 games below .500 two years ago . . to 24 games over .500 now . . . is a SIGNIFICANT UPGRADE in the product, despite the GM, ownership, coach, and player problems.

No sir. I said that if we got to a championship level as a team, we should at least be a top 5 team in attendance. In other words . . I want our attendance to at least somewhat match-up with where we are as a team. The Hawks were a top 10 team . . but 18th in attendance. Only Milwaukee and Charlotte were behind us attendance wise out of all the playoff teams. Here's a question: If we post another 50+ overall win and 30+ home win team, will the Hawks break into the top 15 in attendance? That's why I brought up the New Orleans example. When they were good, they had their arena filled to almost 98% capacity. When they hit a downturn, their attendance numbers went down pretty significantly. But I can't bring up them . . or Portland . . or Utah . . or Oklahoma City, because they're all small market teams. I can't bring up the fact that even when Chicago had that 4 year stretch after Jordan left, in which they never won more than 21 games in a season . . they managed to post top 5, top 10 attendance numbers Can't bring up Phoenix, even though they have more transients than ATL ( but have been a winning franchise much longer ) Can't bring up Houston, even though their traffic situation is as bad ( if not worse ) than Atlanta's Can't bring up any other city or fan base to compare to Atlanta, unless it has Atlanta's "unique set of circumstances" that prevent it from being a city that fully supports its good ballclubs. But as soon as Lebron rolls into town . . ."voila" . . . everybody is out . . . everybody is either ready to cheer Lebron or cheer the Hawks . . . and most of all . . . everybody is ON TIME FOR THE GAME. All of those traffic issues magically go away, when he comes to town . . even for a 7 pm Wednesday night start. During the playoffs, this fan base shows signs that we can be a "championship level" fan base. The "get up and go" to attend a Hawks game is there. The enthusaism about the Hawks is there. But during the regular season, when teams really make their revenue . . . it's "blah . . should I go to the game tonight? Traffic is really bad, and we're playing the Bobcats, so I'll just stay at home." Championship level fan bases go to the games ( in mass ) to support their team . . . not just simply go to the game.

Yes and no. No . . it's out our fault that the team got housed in the playoffs. Yes . . a great crowd can help a team win a game by feeding off of its energy level. It's just my view that fans can't have it both ways. If we don't make a serious commitment to see a damn good product . . ( 65 home wins in 2 years . . . tied for the best 2 year stretch the franchise has ever seen ) . . how can we seriously want or hope that management continues to upgrade the product? I mean . . we basically drew only 11,000 more people in a 53-win 09 - 10 season, than we did in a 37-win 07 - 08 season. That like 270 more people per game. We probably won't know for a while how much revenue the Hawks generated this year, compared to last year. But you'd have to wonder if we did any better this year, than we did last year. They did raise ticket prices on the marquee games. And they did stop giving away so many tickets. so maybe their fiscal numbers look a little better this year, despite the slight dip in attendance.

Exactly. And that's what it's all about. Gotta prioritize your entertainment dollas and you have to love going to games. Once you establish those 2 things, getting to the game is the easy part.

LOL @ me being wealthy. Not even close. I just plan out ahead of time how I want to spend my entertainment dollars. Me planning a trip to see the Hawks is NOT a spur of the moment thing that I come up with a few days before a game. It's usually mapped out months in advance, with me saving dollars here and there to fund the trip. And like 99, I also go to Memphis to see them play the Grizzlies. I'm actually closer to Memphis than I am Atlanta.

I can't speak for 99, but I schedule vacation time to see the Hawks about a week after the schedule comes out. My effort is to try to make at least 1 Hawk game a month plus go to any other games if I'm in the area. Last year, I made it to 6 games + Game 3 vs Orlando. I made it to a 7:30 Friday start vs Washington on Halloween Eve and a 7 pm Tuesday start vs Cleveland a few days before New Years. When I make a commitment to see this team, I try to eliminate as many obstacles as possible. And I live 4 hours away near the TN/KY state line.

It's a fan base in which if a team elevated itself to "championship level", the fans have shown the capacity to unconditionally support the team, no matter who they are playing. In other words . . if the Hawls elevated itself to a team that wins 37 home games and 60 games overall, will the fan base support the Hawks like a top 5 team attendance wise? Does it have the capacity to be a "championship level fan base"? If the progression from 37 wins to 53 wins saw hardly any change in fan enthusiasm in a 3 year span, will anything short of reaching the NBA Finals bring the fans out? If the excuses to not support the team financially outweighs the in-game experience, then we may always have a propblem with attendance, which may prevent ownership from making big money moves . . . even when it concerns hiring coaches.

Well . . there you have it. If what coachx says is correct, we will NEVER have a championship level fan base here. If the casual fans in ATL don't cherish the arena in-game experience, they'll always use these excuses to not attend Hawk games. These same excuses will be used, no matter how good the Hawks get I guess. So can the fan base grow, if we don't reach the NBA Finals? LOL @ beggars . . . the only "beggars" people will run into in downtown ATL for a Hawks game, are the guys begging you to purchase a ticket. I don't know about anybody else, but I personally LOVE being at sporting events LIVE. No way I'm staying at home if I have the option to attend a game.

But their tickets are low, compared to the rest of the top teams in the leauge. We're not paying an average of $90+ dollars a ticket, like they do in L.A. for the Lakers. I think our average ticket price is around $50- $52. And we JUST raised ticket prices in the last 2 years, to be honest. Our payroll has increased starting with the addition of Bibby. We were right around the luxury tax threshhold in 2009 - 10. The ownership at least made a modest commitment to put a winning product on the floor the past 3 years. But what did we see? Total Attendance 2007 - 08: 667,518 2008 - 09: 686,688 2009 - 10: 678,375 I'm sorry folks. I'm a fan of this team just like you guys are. But I also deal in reality. We win 25 home games in 2008 ( 37 total ) . . and 34 games in 2010 ( 53 total ) . . but we only draw rougly 11,000 more folks total? Dead horse or not, these are the facts.

Answer me this coachx We win 34 home games. We were a top 5 - 10 team in the NBA all year. Why did overall attendance to Hawk games slightly decrease? If we as a fan base are ready for a winner, why didn't they come out to the games? Do the usual excuses hold any water? When this team suits up next year, is attendance going to increase or decrease? People may get tired of these questions getting asked, but this is the reality of the situation here.

I don't usually go after people on here. And for the mods, I'll only just lightly do it. But how about YOU SHUT THE F**K UP!! Stupid mo-fos on here always thinking that this ish is about me. It's about US!! US AS A FAN BASE. A lot of you people ( especially in ATL ), get you feelings all hurt whenever people talk about attendance and going to the game. Making every damn excuse in the world as to why we don't have great attendance. There are 4 MILLION + PEOPLE IN METRO ATLANTA. WE ARE NOT A SMALL MARKET, WHEN IT COMES TO NUMBER OF PEOPLE THAT CAN GO TO THE GAMES. So instead of telling me to STFU . . how about you go to the damn games? Because the season ticket holders aren't going to get mad at what I say. They see what goes on, especially during the weekday games. They see how fans of other teams buy up thousands of tickets to make their voices known at Hawk games. But some of you still don't see the reality of the situation. We all cry for a winner . .. but we don't want to support even an up and coming team. Here . . . click on the damn link and see for your damn selves. Instead of feeling sorry about our situation as a fan base, how about looking at the reality of the situation from a monetary standpoint. http://espn.go.com/nba/attendance @ the mods . .. no matter what else they say to me, this will be my last outburst like this . . I promise you that. But this situation should not be ignored, when talking about the future of this team.

I think we all know the question to that. For all of the people that just expect this ownership group to go out and spend money, that's the question that Hawk fans need to ask ourselves. Are we a championship level fan base? HAWKS ATTENDANCE NUMBERS: Home wins: 34 Home wins the last 2 seasons: 65 . . ( tied for best 2-year mark in franchise history ) Avg home attendance: 16,545 . . ( 18th in the league ) Avg home attendance 2009: 16,748 . . ( 20th in the league ) Avg home capacity %: 88.3% . . (19th in the league ) Ave home capacity % 2009: 89.4% . . ( 20th in the league ) There have been those on this board who have said . . . "win, and they will come". Well . . they we came a little LESS this year, despite us having a better product on the floor. So a harsh reality is going to have to be realized by this fan base. Especially the hard core fans in the fan base. You CAN'T expect management to go ALL OUT to build a championship product, if the fans don't make more of a commitment to go to the games. 12 of the top 13 teams in home capacity % made the playoffs. And they all had capacity percentages above 95%. This means that the revenue was flowing on a nightly basis. This year, our capacity % was on the level of the New Orleans Hornets, whose season was decimated with the loss of Chris Paul. Last year, our capacity % was 20th, while the Hornets capacity level was 8th ( at 98.7% ). If fans are waiting on the Hawks to have a championship caliber team, before they really throw their support behind them, then we might be waiting forever. Without tremendous fan support at home, we really can't expect management to go to that next level to put the type of team on the floor that we all want. That's the reality of the situation.

Well why weren't people beating down Joe Smith's door last summer? Why weren't people fawning all over Zaza last summer? Remember . . . guys like Antonio McDyess and Rasheed Wallace garnered all of the attention last year. Even Gortat got major attention. Coaches coach . . Players perform. Shoot . . look at the Flip Murray vs Acie Law situation in the 2008 - 09 season. Acie was in PERFECT POSITION to get a ton of playing time last year. If he played well, he and Bibby would've ended up splitting time. But then the Hawks go out and sign Flip ( another guy that people didn't want ), to a one-year deal. Flip came right in here, and established that he was a MUCH BETTER player than Acie Law. I mean almost immediately. As Flip started the season like a champ, Acie fizzled badly. Acie played himself right out of playing time, with the poor beginning of the season he had. And even when Flip started to falter a little, Acie couldn't get his spot back. When Flip got it going again, Acie still didn't elevate his game to that next level as a reserve PG. But people looooove to blame Woody for Acie's demise. Forget that. I was a HUGE Acie Law fan, but even I saw what was going on with him ( and unfortunately, it's the same thing I'm seeing in Teague ). He just didn't have the confidence in himself as a player, to go out and get the job done when the game is still in the balance. But people love to make excuses as to why Acie didn't pan out here. Then you look at where he's been since. - Golden St . . . where he couldn't beat out ex UT Vol C.J. Watson for the backup PG spot - Charlotte . . . where he couldn't beat out former rival D.J. Augustin for the backup PG spot - Chicago . . . where he couldn't crack the rotation to get minutes, allowing Del Negro to keep playing Hinrich like Woody did Crawford ( at both SG and PG ). Sometimes, people just need to keep it real.

Bus, we definitely should've been more competitive in the Orlando series. But I do agree with you. This was a Marty Schottenheimer type firing, in which Marty would have a real good regular season team, but they never could win the big playoff game. So ownership fires Marty, thinking that a "different voice" ( whether it's a current assistant coach or a coach from somewhere else ), can get the team over the hump and to a championship. Ask Norv Turner how that's turned out the last 3 or 4 years. The easiest thing to do is to make a coaching change before blowing up a squad or trading a piece or two off. So this is typical of what an owner/GM will do, to see if the coach is the main problem . . or if it's the personnel that's the problem. Here's what to look for though. If JJ is re-signed, let's see what the expectations will be going into next season. The core of the squad will virtually be unchanged. Will the new coach get a little leeway to implement his system, forgiving a few early season losses . .or will the fans expect the team to win right away? And what will be an acceptable regular season win total and playoff expectations, with the new coach?

The 20 pts - 4 rebs - 4 asst club. This year, it consists of 8 players: Lebron Wade Kobe Roy JJ Tyreke Evans Arenas Monta Ellis http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&type=per_game&per_minute_base=36&is_playoffs=N&year_min=2010&year_max=2010&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=0&height_max=99&lg_id=&franch_id=&is_active=&is_hof=&pos=&qual=&c1stat=pts_per_g&c1comp=gt&c1val=20&c2stat=trb_per_g&c2comp=gt&c2val=4&c3stat=ast_per_g&c3comp=gt&c3val=4&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&order_by=ws

And who has been "above average" bench guys their whole career? Surely not Mo or Zaza? Joe Smith is OLD. It's a reason why Cleveland didn't even bother re-signing him last summer, along with every other team. Same with Jason Collins. When his name was mentioned last year, most of the people on this board didn't even know who he was. The only "above average" player on our bench, was the same guy who went on to win 6th man of the year . . . Jamal Crawford. But go ahead . . play this game if you guys want. Act like people were just knocking down the door to sign Zaza last year. Act like people are just going to fall all over themselves to sign Mo Evans this year.