TheNorthCydeRises

We have a MAJOR PROBLEM with this 2nd unit defensively. If Crawford doesn't have it going offensively, we're either losing a lead, or seeing a deficit grow larger. Zaza and Joe Smith can't defend anybody. And Crawford's defensive awareness seems to be getting worse. Evans isn't much better. Even when they're on the floor mixed in with the starters, they still end up being the defensive weak link. This team used to be able to grind out games by playing great defense in stretches. But now the 2nd unit can't even be trusted defensively, if they aren't making shots. LOL . . I hate to say this, but a guy like Solo may have been useful tonight, with his shot blocking ability.

LOL . . . . Teke, I'm not worried about Hotlanta. This is what he does. Kind of like Manny Ramirez, it's just Hot being Hot. I couldn't watch this game, but I just saw the highlights of it on nba.com. The defense was terrible, but we still should've won tonight. As bad as we played, we had a 3 point lead at the beginning of the 4th quarter. But the defense was horrendous. (( OMG . . . LOL @ how the Heat just lost. Kobe banks in an off-balance 3 at the buzzer over Wade. )) If it makes you feel better Hot, the team that we play tomorrow night, the former 14 - 5 Dallas Mavericks, just got the hell beat out of them in MEMPHIS. Lost by 16. So I guess that'll be two terrible teams playing in Dallas tomorrow night. A horrible matchup with the 13 - 6 Hawks vs the 14 - 6 Mavericks. This team simply have to make up for tonight's loss, with a win in Dallas. Let's see if they can step up to the challenge. If we win, you won't hear a peep about this game though.

I'll ask again . . did Smoove get tossed? I guess I'll know when the 2nd half starts.

LOL . . did Smoove just get thrown out of this game? I'm following on Yahoo, and it said . . J. Smith technical foul J. Smith technical foul So did he get one tech, or two? LOL if he got tossed. The defense so far is bad enough. God knows we'd need him in the 2nd half. Oh well, time for Evans and Joe Smith to step up. And is that Al Harrington out there, or Carmelo Anthony? He's trying to get 30 by halftime.

Yeah it would be real funny . . . . . . . . up until when the national media starts to really seek out Woody for interviews. They'll ask him the usual fluff questions about the team. Then someone will ask this question ( maybe it'll be Sekou, since he doesn't have to kiss the azz of the Hawks anymore ): Sekou: "You know I have to ask you this question Mike. Why do you feel that the Hawks haven't given you an extension yet?" Woody: (( laughs )) "GOOD QUESTION. We're 1st in the East with a 35 - 13 record. Barring major injuries, we should easily reach our preseason goal to win at least 50 games. And we're going to make the playoffs for the 3rd year in a row. We've far exceeded everyone's expectations of us up to this point. So you tell me Sekou. Why haven't I got an extension? (( laughs again )) Maybe they want me to get to the NBA Finals, before making a long term commitment. Sekou: "Like Joe Johnson, you're technically a free agent at the end of the year. Would you like to stay in Atlanta?" Woody: "That's not for me to decide." Sekou: "OK. But YOU personally . . would you like to stay in Atlanta and finish what yoy started." Woody: (( in that condescending Woody voice )) "That's not for me to decide. If they want me back, fine. If not, that's fine too. I'll be OK. If we reach our goals this year, I'll be more than OK, whether it's here in Atlanta, or someone else. Sekou: "Does that mean you'll be seeking an significant multi-year deal from someone." Woody: "Some job security would be nice, whether it be here in Atlanta, or somewhere else." ************* The comments would start a firestorm on the Hawks blogs and message boards, calling Woody selfish, and playing the starters into the ground, to make him look better, so he could leave the Hawks and/or extort ( yes, that's how it would be described as ) more money from them. Ken would write a piece on the AJC Hawks Blog entitled: "Whether it be in Atlanta . . . " It'll halfway take up for Woody, but justify why the Hawks haven't signed him long term . . using our inability to beat Orlando in 3 tries ( even though we've beaten Bostob twice and the Cavs once ) . and skepticism that the Hawks can't reach the Eastern Conference Finals ( even though no coach in Atlanta Hawk history has achieved this feat ), as justification for him not getting an extension. And the Hawk masses will agree with him, until . . . . . . someone interviews Sund, and asks him why he hasn't signed Woody to an extension. He'll give the bland answer of . . "we've decided to hold off on evaulating everything about the Hawks, until the season is over. We'd like to have Mike back. But we're also going to weigh all of our options." Then shortly after that, some nationally known writer at ESPN writes a racially-charged article, stating how he belIeves that Black coaches aren't given a fair shake for some reason, even when they win. He'll throw in things like how Charlie Strong ( Def. Coordinator @ Florida ) can't get a head coaching job at a major university, despite having 3 National Titles on his resume. . . . or how Ty Willingham was fired at Notre Dame after only 4 years ( while other coaches always got 5 ), but Charlie Weis got an extension after 2 years, solely because he ALMOST beat the might USC Trojans . . .or how Terry Porter was fired from the Suns after one year, despite missing the playoffs by one game, and winning 46 games. . . and the kicker, how Mike Woodson, coach of the 1st place and now 42 - 16 Atlanta Hawks, still hasn't received an extension on his contract. Most people would look at the article, and scoff at it, citing countless numbers of examples of how Black coaches were hired and extended. And they'd be right. While others would be like "hmmmmm . . you know, that article does have a point" And they'd be right as well. Now you got the national media blowing up Sund and the ASG's phones, asking them what they thought of that article, and how it pretains to Woody's situation. It'll be interesting to see if they stuck to the same answers, gave a no comment, or felt forced to extend Woody, because of the mild negative heat they'd take if Woody was unsigned with that record. LOL . . now THAT would be interesting . . if the fallout of Woody being named the coach of the All-Star team, led to all of that.

Definitely agree. While all losses in the standings count the same, a loss to a depleted Detroit team in March, while fighting for playoff seeding, would be a much more damaging loss then, than it is now. And you're right about how Woody can approach these losses. So far, this team hasn't had more than a 2 game losing streak and has only had one bad week of poor play. No way I'd ever think we'd be 13 - 5 right now.11 - 7 . . . 10 - 8 maybe . . . but not 13 - 5. To match our start from last year ( from the beginning of the season, to the 1st of the year . . in which we went 21 - 10 : .677 winning percentage), we need to go 8 - 5 . . . definitely attainable. I say we go 10 - 3, to give us a 23 - 8 record.

Please stop acting like every game is do or die for the Hawks. The NBA is not a 30-game season, it's an 82-game season. There will be more eggs laid on the road, you best believe that. But all you have to do, is look at what Phoenix has done this week. Every "good team" in the league will do exactly what we did at some point in the season. That's just the nature of NBA basketball.

The strength of this team resides in its top 6 players. Night in and night out, they're the difference makers on this team ( win or lose ). As for the poll, there's no way in hell that JJ isn't a top 20 player in this league. His all-around game has to be taken into account. He'ms ranked that low because people don't watch him play that much, and because he hasn't dominated in a playoff series on a superstar-like level. And with the way Josh Smith is playing, there's noway in hell that Smoove isn't a top 30 player . . even top 25. Did I see that right? Nene ranked ahead of Smoove? Get the f*** outta here.

And God knows I HATE ARENAS. But with that team being back at full strength, and Washington starting to play at least .500 basketball, a coach who is naming an All-Star team, will probably look at him. That last spot will be either him, or Derrick Rose.

JJ will get heavy consideration, as long as we're near the leaders and as long as he's putting up decent numbers. The BIG 3 coaches in the East, still gameplan the Hawks to stop JJ. So he'll get the nod on this team before anyone else. Depending on how well we play in January, JJ may even have a shot to be voted as a starter. But I highly doubt that. He won't get nearly enough votes from the ATL market, and the Boston market will probably flood the ballot with Rondo. Smoove is still shooting a very high FG percentage. That's the biggest key for him making the All-Star game. He probably needs to keep his PPG above 16, his blocks above 2.5, and his steals closer to 2 per game. Horford has little to no shot, in my opinion. He'd definitely have to raise his numbers closer to 15 pts - 11 rebs - 55% FG, to get consideration. Even then, there are a few guys to consider before placing him on the team. Remember, the coach picking the All-Star team isn't obligated to take a guy who plays center. He can easily pick another forward, especially if KG is in the starting lineup. Crawford has no shot, unless that dude really starts to turn it on, and is a big factor against the teams/coaches who could possibly name him as a reserve. There are just too many other good guards in this conference to choose from. LOL . . let me take that back. The only shot Crawford has, is if Woody is picking the reserves. Then he'll have a shot. My picks for the team so far: Starters: G - Wade G - Rondo F - Lebron F - KG C - Howard Reserves: G - JJ G - Brandon Jennings G - Arenas F - Bosh F - Pierce F - Danny Granger F - Josh Smith

Since no one has mentioned him yet, I will. Good game Marvin. Gotta love those back 2 back threes he made in the 2nd quarter, and was confident enough to take a 3rd one right in a row, but he missed. After he made his first few outside shots, JJ was going to him all night.

It helps when people are making shots. JJ had 5 assists off made 3-pointers ( 3 to Marvin, 2 to Bibby )

Fact is . . he's always been horrible. Some of you guys just hadn't watched enough games of his to see that. But people wanted to drink from the Sund kool-aid, and believe every move he makes is a good move. He's an insurance policy in case our frontline suffers some injuries. Other than that, he should only play in deep garbage time. Dude has always been straight garbage.

Conley has definitely been disappointing this year. Memphis picked up Jamal Tinsley after the Iverson experiment blew up in their faces. Iverson was stupid, because with the way Conley is playing, there would've been a huge outcry for Iverson to play more . . even start. Now he'll basically play the same role, with a contract that can be terminated at any given time, for the vet minimum,on arguably a worse team. It'll be interesting what his effect on Andre Iguodala will be. If he'd stayed in Memphis, he would've easily got enough playing time and shots to average 12 - 15 ppg, and would've been on the court at the end of every game.

I'm still reading through this thread, so if someone has already pointed out what I'm about to say, then I'm sorry. Teague has All-Star potential huh? You mean like Marvin, Shelden, and Acie had all-star potential? Sometimes, we just need to be honest about things. The young guys that have all-star potential, show it from the jump. Future All-Stars don't shoot 0 - 15 FG in a game, even if it's a practice game. If Teague had that much potential, he would've been a lottery pick, not the 7th PG taken in the draft. More and more, I wonder how this team would look, if we drafted Dejuan Blair, a guy who looks like he may be a rebounding machine, instead of Teague. The fact is that the minute Sund traded for a combo guard like Crawford, and retained Bibby, Teague's chances to play decent minutes was significantly hurt. At least if we'd drafted Blair, there may or may not have been a need to bring in Joe Smith. With rebounding still being one of our more inconsistent points, Woody would've loved Blair. There was definitely a need to draft Teague, in case Bibby bounced. But there isn't a need to give him steady minutes per game either. Not when Bibby is shooting well and when Crawford can adequately play the point, with JJ at the 2.

LOL . . . since this post, Cleveland has gotten blown out by the Bobcats, Denver lost to Minnesota, and the top team in the league ( Phoenix ) loses by 27 points against the Knicks. The only things the Hawks have shown so for is . . . - Orlando may be the one or two teams that we don't match up well with - They play great at home ( .750 winning percentage or better ) - They may merely be a mediocre team ( around .500 ) on the road, instead of a bad road team In other words, they're playing like a good 50+ win playoff team, instead of a great 60+ win championship caliber team.

Bingo. And that's a freat point about Tyreke Evans. He's been playing great basketball since Martin went down. So it will be VERY INTERESTING to see how the Kings play when Martin returns to full strength. If they play even better, they'll keep Martin. If they take a nosedive, because of a conflict about who should be the main guy, Martin may be dealt. If the Hawks did a JJ for Martin swap, honestly, it probably wouldn't hurt us one bit in the regular season. Offensively, Martin may be an upgrade over JJ. Defensively, he's a significant downgrade And it would rear its ugly head in the playoffs. Imagine Woody's 3-guard lineup, with Bibby, Crawford, and Martin. Shooting wise, it's probably an upgrade. Only one problem though. Who do you think will have the ball in his hands, initiating the offense? It won't be Kevin . . . nor Mike . . . it'll be Jamal. If Woody ( as somebody said ) is already grooming Jamal to be "JJ-lite", then Crawford will have full control over this offense, unless Martin could prove he could handle the shooting, ball handling, and playmaking responsibilities. And on defense . . . ugh . . . which one of those guys are going to guard Wade? Lebron? Pierce? Carter? I think it's conceivable that we could trade JJ for Martin, win 50 games, but get bounced in Round 1, because we'd have no one to even remotely slow down D-Wade. I think the guy to watch more and more in a deadline deal trade, is Marvin. And if the ASG traded him for decent, but expiring contracts, that'll mean that they may be preparing themselves for a possible bidding war for JJ. It'll be a shame to lose him like that. But the ASG should do a DAMN THING, if the Hawks are right up there with the Big 3. The Hawks, after Christmas, will go through the ultimate "Baptism by fire". They play a home and home series with Cleveland right before the New Year . . have to play Orlando twice in January . . . Boston three times in January . . and play Phoenix and San Antonio in January. That month alone, may decide our future as a ballclub, and JJ's as well. Woody too.

OK . . . who is this magical center that we're going to be able to trade JJ for? The thread talking about our cap situation has been discussed to death. What . . . you wanna trade JJ to the Sixers, and bring back Samuel Dalembert, simply to have another big man here? And PGs are just as valued as big men. Bringing in an average center, or even an above average center, but losing JJ, does not help the Hawks situation, unless that center can both rebound and score down on the low block. If you're going to use contracts to see who's worth the money or not, every top 20 player in the league, outside of Lebron, Wade, Kobe, Duncan, and Carmelo probably isn't worth the money. Rashard Lewis makes more money than JJ, and he's the 3rd or 4th option on the Magic. But he's a vital piece to their championship aspirations. When you only have one all-star caliber player on the team, you don't trade him for fear of overpaying him in the long run. If every good team around the league had this mindset, they'd quickly fall out of playoff contention until they replaced that player. Ask the T-Wolves, Clippers, Warriors, the former Sonics, and the Grizzlies about that.

LOL . . the only way a shooter is going to get out of a slump, is to keep shooting. He's our scorer. That means he has to shoot the ball. If anything, he needs to start taking better shots. But he doesn't need to stop shooting. Exodus has been talking all year about JJ's slow starts. From the beginning of the season, he's been starting out 2 - 7 . . 3 - 9. But he was ending up 9 - 19 . . 11 - 22 FG. Lately, the stroke has been off. Guys get hot . . guys cool off. It happens like that in basketball sometimes. But the shooter can't stop shooting. The shooter needs to take better shots. Forget the 35% FG . . . JJ has only been to the line 13 times in the last 5 games. And 8 of those came in the Houston game. So he's been to the line 5 times in the last 4 games. That stat right there is more troubling to me.

It has very little to do with the switching defense. Just watch the next game. The only one that boxes out his man, is Horford. No other person on the team consistently does that. If Smoove did it, he'd easily average 11 rpg. If Marvin did it, he'd average at least 7 rpg. What they'll do, is pur an arm on somebody or lazily lean on their man. Then when the rebound comes off, they'll sometimes get out hustled. They rely on their athleticism too much to get rebounds. The reason why Big Ben killed us on the boards, is because he ALWAYS puts a body on somebody. We don't constantly do that, even when Woody is motioning for it on the sidelines. So if they'd get into the habit of boxing out ( block out ), that'll at least stop the offensive rebounding parade. The other solution, is simply for the guards to start crashing the boards. But when they do it, even they have to put a body on someone. Marvin is by far the laziest rebounder on the team when he plays SF. When he plays PF, he's much better, even though he doesn't box out all the time. JJ rebounds decently when he plays SF, but lazily at SG. Bibby sometimes will scrap for a loose rebound.

I got my minutes wrong at PG, so now I gotta adjust the whole thing. PG: Bibby ( 34 ) - Crawford ( 9 ) - Teague ( 5 ) SG: JJ ( 26 ) - Crawford ( 22 ) SF: Evans ( 14 ) - Marvin ( 24 ) - JJ ( 10 ) PF: Smoove ( 36 ) - Marvin ( 6 ) - Joe Smith ( 6 ) C: Horford ( 35 ) - Zaza ( 13 ) Total minutes ( just add 1 min to Bibby and 2 min to Marvin, from that original list )

I wouldn't mind seeing Marvin going to the bench. But niot necessarily because Mo would be better though. While everyone wants to see the "deep bench" play more, the facts are that the bench ( outside of Crawford ) has been horrible so far. The group of Teague - Crawford - Evans - Joe Smith - and Zaza, are our worst 5-man group. So if Woody wanted to bring Marvin off the bench, to provide potential additional firepower for that 2nd unit,, then I wouldn't mind seeing that on a trial basis. For Mo, it would give him the same role he had when Marvin went down last March . . . be that additional 3-point spot up shooter. Mo is a better deep shooter than Marvin, so it could work out, if Mo shoots a high percentage on his open jumpers. If he can hold up defensively, then I wouldn't have any problem with Mo starting. This does mean, that Mo and JJ need to help out on the boards a little more. But if we do this, I want Woody to treat Mo just like he used to do Royal Ivey. I'm playing Mo until the 1st TV timeout in the 1st and 3rd quarters, and I'm taking him out the game for the rest of the half. If he's hot, I might let him go to the 3 minute mark in that quarter. But Mo isn't playing more than 12 - 15 minutes a night, unless he's killing it from 3-point range And the one thing I'm NOT DOING, is significantly reducing Marvin's minutes, just to play Mo. Nah . . . no way in hell. Marvin will still get his 25 - 30 minutes a game. What I'm doing though, is simply re-defining Marvin's role on the team. Bringing him off the bench will possibly force the dude to be more aggressive on offense and on the boards, instead of just laying back and letting the starters do all the work. With the starters, he's becoming an afterthought, especially with Smoove being better offensively. And with the arrival of Crawford, he doesn't get the chance to eventually take 10+ shots throughout the flow of the game. So maybe if we did bring him off the bench, and let he and Crawford be the top 2 options in the 2nd unit for about 10 minutes a game while the starters rest, that may not only work out better for Marvin, it might work out better for the team. This may also lead to the reduction of minutes for JJ, that so many fans want to see. Scenario: Say at the 6 minute mark, Crawford comes in for Mo, giving you a lineup of ( Bibby, Crawford, JJ, Smith, Horford ) Then at the 3 minute mark, Marvin and Zaza enters the game, giving you a lineup of ( Crawford, JJ, Marvin, Smith, Zaza ) At the start of the 2nd quarter, if he wants, he could bring in Teague and Joe Smith, giving him a lineup of ( Teague, Crawford, Marvin, Joe Smith, Zaza ) At this point, you make a point for Crawford and Marvin to be the focal point of the offense, maybe until the 7 min mark in the 2nd qtr, especialy in the halfcourt. It's no guarantee that it will bring out the best in Marvin, but it might. And if depending on who's playing the best, you let either Marvin or Crawford finish the half ( or the game ) with JJ, Bibby, Smith, and Horford. Possible minutes distribution: PG: Bibby ( 33 ) - Crawford ( 7 ) - Teague ( 5 ) SG: JJ ( 24 ) - Crawford ( 24 ) SF: Evans ( 14 ) - Marvin ( 22 ) - JJ ( 12 ) PF: Smoove ( 36 ) - Marvin ( 6 ) - Joe Smith ( 6 ) C: Horford ( 35 ) - Zaza ( 13 ) Total: JJ - 36 Smoove - 36 Horford - 35 Evans - 14 Bibby - 33 Crawford - 31 Marvin - 28 Zaza - 13 Joe Smith - 6 Teague - 5 ( just being real about the minutes Woody is playing him ) This lineup is totally dependent on Mo making 3s and playing decent defense.

The fate of recent playoff teams after they lost and/or traded their best player: Minnesota trades Garnett for younger talent . . . . they now suck Golden St didn't want to pay Baron Davis and Keep paying Jason Richardson, and ends up losing them both . . . they now suck LA Clippers played around with Brand, and they end up losing him . . they now suck Memphis trades Pau Gasol instead of waiting for a guy like Rudy Gay to develop alomgside him. . . they now suck Seattle ( under Sund ) didn't want to overpay for Rashard Lewis . . . Seattle sucked and end up losing their entire franchise to another city Jersey gives up on the last of their Big 3 ( Jefferson first, then Carter ) . . ad they are now an historically bad team Be careful what you wish for folks. When an entire team is constructed around JJ and his all-around abilities, and you suddenly take that away, you better pray and hope the guys still on the team can elevate their games significantly. This is a league that wins with multiple star players. Don't ever forget that. The good thing about JJ's game, is even if he falls off to the point where he's not the offensive focal point of the team in 2014-15, he could still be an effective player as a spot up shooter/defender . . ala Michael Finley or James Posey. He's still going to have a size advantage over people. But by that time, he may strictly be a SF, instead of a SG. As long as we're near the top of the standings, you don't even think about trading JJ, even if he's shooting 42% FG.. You have to keep a good player like that on the team, and let everything play out. It'll be interesting what the sentiment on this subject is come February, because Dominique back in 1994 played exactly how JJ is playing now . . great on some nights, erratic the next. He even was called selfish at times. But the team was used to playing with Nique, through good or bad games, and still manage to dominate at home and grind it out on the road. Then we call ourselves trading for a younger, more versatile SF/PF in Danny Manning, sending Nique to the Ciippers. Clippers end up playing the Hawks a few weeks later, and Nique drops 34 points on us . . . when we were the best team in the East. I'm not going to rehash the Nique/Manning trade any more than that, but we all know what went down.

Since you're one of the more rational critics of Woody, I'll address this. You're right about one thing. Running Isos with JJ and Crawford is great when the jumpers are falling. That's one of the reasons why we won 47 games last year, with JJ controlling the ball in the halfcourt, drawing double teams, then passing to wide open shooters who could knock shots down. The flaw, is that both JJ and Crawford tend to shy away from contact when going iso. They'd much rather take a difficult mid-range jumper, than to look for contact and get to the FT line. That's what prevents JJ from getting to that next level as a player . . his inability to get to the FT line. Crawford can do it, but he draws fouls off jumpshots, not by going hard to the basket. But with Marvin struggling the way he's been this season, the offense stagnates even more these days. Bibby is the only one consistently making open jumpshots on this team. JJ and Crawford are wildly inconsistent in that area. The only way we could run Sloan's offense, is if we gave control to Crawford at the point, because you need a versatile guard to effectively run pick and roll. Bibby isn't quick enough to run the pick and roll. Teague may could run it, but he isn't finishing well going to the hole right now because he isn't strong enough. So it would have to be up to Crawford to initiate that attack. But as we've seen with Crawford, he doesn't like going all the way to the basket either. He'd much rather bring the pick to him, only to take 2 dribbles and take a jumpshot. JJ lacks the quickness to run it as well. And because he shys away from contact, he can't get to the FT line. That's the fatal flaw in his game at this point in time. The beauty of Sloan's offense, is that the team is well constructed to play a variety of ways. They can run pick and roll. They can run Iso Deron or Iso Boozer down on the block, and be effective. And they surround those guys ( usually ), with sharpshooters who can knock down 3s. I would be all for running that type of halfcourt offense, if we had a PG like Andre Miller, instead of Crawford. Dre will take the ball to the hole, and usually make the right decision with the ball. As spotatl is pointing out, I think a lot of people just need to be real about the offensive capabilities of this team, especially in the halfcourt. We don't even have a post player as good as Zach Randolph ( who is a better offensive player than Smith ) or Marc Gasol ( who is a better offensive player than Horford ). According to the most current NBA.com Hotspot data, here's what Horford and Smith are shooting on the left and right blocks. Left block: Horford - ( 2 - 10: 20% ) . . . Smith - ( 1 - 3: 33% ) Right block: Horford - ( 4 - 13: 31% ) . . . Smith - ( 2 - 2: 100% ) Horford takes more shots on the block, while Smith's low post game is pretty much non-existant, if he can't get all the way to the rim. Gasol is damn near a low post demon on both sides of the block, while Zach shoots a low percentage, but at least tries to score from those areas. But it's obvious that Horford and Smith are the far more athletic and better defensive players. In the open floor, they may be the best 2 in the league. That is their strength. And this is why the coach puts far more emphasis on defense and rebounding, than he may do on offensive halfcourt sets. As far as Woody, I think he does need to utilize Iso JJ more down on the blocks, instead of on the perimeter, especially when Crawford and Bibby are at the guards. But that means that you'll have to pull either Horford or Smith away from the basket. If either could consistently knock down 20 foot jumpshots, the offense would be lethal. It's like I've said in the past. Show me a highly efficient offense, and I'll probably show you a team that has a very good low post scorer, along with a very good guard who can get people open shots. We're better off just simply trying to create offense, by playing great defense and rebounding the basketball, instead of trying to force mediocre offensively skilled players, to become good offensive players in the halfcourt. If JJ could get to the damn line when he's ice cold, like the other elite level players, we'd be more than OK.

No it's not. In Collins case, the Bulls had won 3 less regular season games than they did the previous year. Plus he and Jordan didn't have the best of relationships. The Bulls did reach the Eastern Conference Finals that year, however, but lost to Detroit. And a lot of people were flat out shocked that Chicago fired Collins, after reaching the ECF in his 3rd year as the coach. Collins got shafted, plain and simple. Dude was a good coach, and only got fired ( possibly ) because of Jordan, and definitely because the GM didn't like his emotional outbursts during games and thought he was too tough on the players after losses. But no way was his firing justified. He simply didn't get a chance to finish what he started. Phil Jackson the next year also lost in the ECF. It wasn't until 1991, against a hobbled Magic Johnson, did the Bulls win their first title. In Carlisle's case, His Detroit teams won 50 games two seasons in a row. But like Collins, he also reached the ECF the year he was fired. Matter of fact, it was the first time the Pistons had reached the ECF in 11 years. But we all know what his firing was about. That was about Dumars having a chance to bring in a Hall of Fame coach in Larry Brown. He got a $25 million dollar deal to leave Philly hanging. But Carlisle got the shaft too. Before he got there, the Pistons won 32 games. Under Carlisle, they win 50 games twice, win the division title twice, and reach the ECF. . but still got fired? Like Collins, Carlisle didn't get a chance to finish the job. And the Pistons were not going to win anything, with the team Brown inherited. They were good, but not a championship caliber team . . . until Billy Knight handed the title to them, with the Rasheed Wallace trade for Detroit's expiring contracts. So like with Collins and Carlisle, I guess you'd be all for firing Woody, if the Hawks won 54 games and got to the Eastern Conference Finals . . . but lost. Then, when the next coach comes in to coach the players that Woody developed and made mentally tough, he'd get all of the credit, if he happen to win the NBA title the year after Woody leaves. Yeah . . that's real fair. It'll be like a guy who does a good job on the exterior paint job of a house, but takes credit for building and designing the entire house as well. Like I said . . . short of winning it all, people would still want Woody fired.