TheNorthCydeRises

No way you can play Teague 25 minutes a game, without reducing the playing time of Bibby AND Crawford. Reducing JJ's minutes to free up time for Teague, isn't an option. Like it or not, Mike Bibby has to be on the floor for this team. Maybe not 32 minutes a game, but at least for 27 - 30 minutes. He's not going to turn the ball over and he's going to give you clutch jumpshooting. And he runs the team well. Crawford, if not on offensively, is a liability on the court. People cried when Woody took a hot JJ out of the game, in order to stick with his set rotation ( i.e. - get Crawford his minutes ). But 48 hours ago, that's what the majority of the fan base wanted. You can reduce Marvin's minutes, play Crawford at the 2 more, to free up more minutes for Teague at the 1. But see the previous paragraph about Crawford. He has to be on offensively to justify playing him with JJ at the 3, and Teague/Bibby at the 1. That lineup is a defensive nightmare against a good scoring backcourt. Everybody can't get significant minutes folks. Teague's playing time should be predicated on how well he is playing in an individual game. Giving him a set 20 - 25 minutes a game, would be a mistake. Keep him at 10 - 15 minutes a game, until he can consistently prove that he should get increased minutes.

Teke, that's exactly what it is. It's so obvious what it is. When this happens again, I wonder if some of the AJC sportswriters will have the guts to actually write about this subject. This entire team should be forced to listen to that ATL rap classic . . . Never Scared - by Bonecrusher.

Good post. But you forgot one major element when talking about the players. 1) Josh Smith - Or . . because he is too "soft". He usually reverts back to the jumper when he knows he can't beat his man off the dribble. But more important, he purposely shys away from contact . . on both offense and defense. Instead of just getting the ball and going directly to the hole, he's trying to finesse his way to the basket with crossover and behind the back dribbles in the lane. That's why he gets the "soft" label. And this is what is preventing him from being a true star player in the league. 2) Horford - Or . .maybe he hasn't quite figured out how to best score against big centers, other than his jumper. The jumper is the strength of his offensive game. But like Josh, sometimes he just needs to go straight up and look for contact, so that he can get to the FT line. 3) Marvin - Or . . because he hasn't developed the pull up jumper off the dribble. His drives to the hole are better, but still clumsy. And we all know he's a decent spot-up shooter. But the pull-up jumper is needed for him to really initiate the offense . . unless we play him at PF. The big games he had last year while JJ was out, all came when he played Pf, and could draw fouls against them 4) I don't think the screen game isn't a major part of the offense, altough they did set more screens last night than I've seen in a while. The pull up 3 that JJ shot while Horford screened his man, was beautiful. And they did run some screen and roll in the Wizards game while Crawford was running the point. So maybe Woody will incorporate the screen game more into the offense. 5) I think some do it. Bibby and Marvin don't do it. JJ does it often. Smoove does it sometimes, but not often enough. 6) Well, we didn't have the guards to effectively run pick and roll until this year. Crawford and Teague are the type of quick guards you want running pick and rolls. Those are al fair points to make about the players and the coach. Like with everything, it's probably a combination of all of that. Scheme and execution are usually looked at as coaching or personnel issues. Basketball smarts and toughness are individual player issues that a coach can't usually correct.

Now we're back on the timed substitutions issue. Like no other coach does this . . including Phil Jackson. This board is hilarious. One minute, people complain about JJ playing too many minutes. The next minute, people complain about JJ being out of a game too long. They want Woody to trust the bench one minute, then keep JJ in a game until he can't press the circle button no more the next. Fact is, it wouldn't have mattered when Woody took JJ out, because people still would have something negative to say about it. Even if he hit 3 more shots to end the quarter with 24 points on 10 - 11 shooting, the Lakers were still matching us point for point. It's funny though. People have been talking mess about JJ ever since he turned down the extension, even wanting his minutes reduced for a guy who has NEVER come even close to appearing in a playoff game. Now, it's play JJ for how long, as long as we win? The fact that JJ got a straight 8 minutes rest in a game vs the Lakers, is actually incredible. It just shows how well some of those guys were playing in the first half. It would've enabled Woody to once again play him the entire 4th quarter, fairly energized. Instead, the team melted down, and we never got a chance to see how a rested JJ could fare in the 4th with the game on the line. JJ didn't go cold because he sat out too long. He went cold because the Lakers stopped trying to play him straight up one on one. Artest couldn't do anything to stop JJ last night. But when they started to double team him and make him take tougher shots, that's when he went cold. But in true JJ fashion, it was also at that point in which he started looking for his open teammates. Bibby responded by making shots. The others missed shots or turned the ball over. And once again, I believe we were STILL LOSING when JJ went out the game, despite the hot hand. And Crawford came right in, and actually played well in that 2nd quarter, along with Joe Smith. It's like I said in an earier post. JJ's "rest" had nothing to do with the 3rd quarter meltdown, because we were still right in the game at the 7 minute mark, despite JJ's jumper not falling. This is why I said that even if we had a Dwyane Wade on the squad instead of JJ, this team would STILL have these same issues on the frontline. Just keep this in mind everytime we play a powerful frontline. When JJ is the team leader in rebounds for most of the night, something is going HORRIBLY WRONG somewhere. Because rebounding is more about desire and positioning, than anything else.

Let me answer that last paragraph first, before I break down what I have bolded. The main reason you don't try to win a game in which you're down 10 with 50 seconds left, and they have the ball, is because of possible INJURIES. While it is unlikely that someone will get hurt while playing hard in that final minute, it's even MORE UNLIKELY that you'll win a game during that timespan with that much ground to make up. In those miracle comebacks, you usually need 3 things to happen: 1) the losing team needs to get red hot from 3-point range 2) the losing team needs to force turnovers, and score off of those turnovers 3) the winning team has to completely panic ( or choke ), whether it be with ball handling or by missing free throws or by wide open missed shots or lay-ups God forbid that someone like JJ or Smoove turns an ankle or suffers some sort of freak injury, while trying to erase a 10 point decifit with under a minute to go. The media and the fans would make Woody walk the plank and into an ocean full of sharks right then and there. This board would be in a state of PURE RAGE if that happened. Hawk Armageddon would come at the 3rd game of the season. Even I couldn't defend Woody if that happened, because he shouldn't have had them doing that ish in the first place . . down 10 . . with less than a minute to go. Maybe in a playoff elimination game you have them doing that. But not in the 3rd game of the regular season, in a game that is all but lost anyway. The NBA season is way too long as to act like every loss is going to put you out of playoff contention. The Hawks will definitely have a few games in which we're only down 5 - 7 points with less than a minute, to "practice" this strategy. At least with that point spread, you're only 2 threes away from putting yourself in contention to win the game. So if the Hawks were showing no signs of seriously putting themselves in position to win the game . . . then yes, shut it down, and fight another day. Bringing up NBA miracles like Miller's comeback against the Knicks and T-Mac's explosion aganst the Spurs, are merely that . . . .MIRACLES. 99% of games like the one we played in last night, end in a loss. So take the loss and move on. And actually, since people are sooooooo concerned about JJ's and the starter's minutes, being down 10 with under a minute to go, definitely falls under the category of "wasted minutes in which they could be resting, instead of playing and exerting unnexessary energy." Now . . it's interesting that you bring up that Houston game. T-Mac's performance was incredible. But the Rockets were in a totally different situation than we were in. - although Houston was playing like pure crap, so were the Spurs. The score of that game was 60 - 60 early in the 4th quarter. - Spurs had pushed their lead to 11 points, and were leading by 9 with under 2 minutes to go - Rockets had only scored like 8 points in the quarter at that point. So let's pick up the action from here. *** With the Rockets being down 9, the "great Hawk legend" Bobby Sura, misses a three with 1:22 to go. Spurs get the rebound, and Duncan is fouled with 1:01 to go. Spurs lead . . 74 - 64. (( Let's stop here for a minute, because already, they're in a totally different situation than we were in last night. Because altough both the Hawks last night, and the Rockets here, are down by 10, Houston has the ball with a chance to cut it to 7 or 8, while our only chance to cut it to 7 or 8, is to force a turnover and score. If not, the Lakers can run the lead to 12 with 2 FTs. If not, they're still up 10, with even less time on the clock. )) *** T-Mac races down the court and misses a lay-up, but Yao put is back in the hole to cut the Spurs lead to 8 with 52 seconds to go. Then the first major element of the comeback happens. Scott Padgett steals the inbounds pass, and dunks it, cutting the Spur lead to 6 . . . with 47 seconds to go. (( NOTE: This is the point in which the Rockets started to foul. With them only being down 6 with 47 seconds to go, they have the option to either try to get a stop, or extend the game by fouling. They go the foul route . . but only if they couldn't get a steal first. )) **** Devin Brown is fouled, and makes 2 FTs, to make the score 76 -68 Spurs. A score by the rockets still makes it a 2-possession game. So when T-Mac hit's that first three to cut it to 76 - 71 with 35 seconds left, they still have a shot if they can get a steal or just one miss FT. But they get neither, and have to foul Brown again. Once agan, he makes 2 FTs and push the Spur lead to 78 - 71 with 31 seconds left. **** Then the 2nd big play of the comeback happens. T-Mac hits another three, and is FOULED ON THE SHOT BY DUNCAN ( questionable foul, but they called it nonetheless ). After T-Mac hits the FT, you'ew now talking about a one possession game. Score: 78 - 75 Spurs . . with 24 seconds to go. *** Rockets play for the steal again, but don't get it. They end up fouling Duncan, a pretty good person to foul. He makes his 2 FTs though, and push the Rocket lead back to 5 . . 80 - 75. 16 seconds to go. T-Mac get the ball again, and hits ANOTHER 3 with 11 seconds left, to cut the lead to 80 - 78. *** Then the final part of the T-Mac miracle happens. Poor Devin Brown has the ball stolen by the one person you don't want to have the ball . . T-Mac. But instead of settling to tie the game, he pulls up for his 4th consecutive three, and knocks the dang shot down with less than 2 seconds left to give the Rockets an 81 - 80 lead. Tony Parker misses his three, and the Rockets win. So let's review: - Rockets erased a 10 point lead, but had to score 17 points in the final 1:01 to win - T-Mac scores 13 points in 35 seconds. - Although the Spurs went 6 - 6 from the FT line during this span, the 2 turnovers in which the Rockets got 5 points off of, and the Duncan foul on T-Mac's 3rd three pointer, turned out to be the difference in the game. LOL . . nah man. The Hawks did right last night. Just play defense, but don't foul. Take your loss, and hope to regroup in Portland. Just because miracles DO happen, doesn't mean they happen often enough to expect them to happen. We can practice your "miracle" scenario in a game in which we actually have a slim shot to make it interesting. If we beat Portland and Sacramento, we're 4 - 1. I think everybody would take that.

OK . . so name the players that didn't listen to Woody last night. Or better yet, which players do you think don't listen to Woody. And please don't say all of them, because you know that's not the case. And when you come up with the names of those player(s), decide if it MIGHT be the player(s) that is the REAL problem. Matter of fact, this goes out to everyone. Name the player(s) that you feel don't listen to Woody, and see if the fault with that lies more on the player(s) or on the coach. And be TRUTHFUL about your answers. I won't say who I think. I want some of you guys to say it.

it is crazy isn't it? But then again, I was at Philips Arena for the Washington game, and saw a crowd reminiscent of the 2005 - 06 season, with all of the empty seats in the upper deck and lower sections. I wonder if the Hawks have stopped giving away all of those tickers, and are expecting people to actually pay to watch the team? As I've said on this board before, my support of this team is UNCONDITIONAL. For us to improve on what we did last year, even if we don't get to the Eastern Conf Finals, will be satisfying to me. With me, it's like watching my Bengals. The Bengals have only had 1 winning season since 1990, so you better believe that I'm enjoying watching them this season, even if I know deep down that this probably isn't a Super Bowl caliber team. Good thing the Hawks have another game tomorrow night We can only talk about this meltdown for another 24 hours. Win @ Portland and @ Sacramento, and we're 4 - 1.

My theme is . . everytime we lose a game, the fan base loves to point the finger at Woody as the reason why we lost the game. So this thread was an attempt to dispell that Woody had nothing to do with what led to us losing last night. The Hawks were right where we wanted to be, despite Smoove and Marvin being thoroughly outplayed most of the game. Then the 5 minute meltdown happened, and the game was over. a) we did get outworked . . that's obvious. JJ was leading us in rebounding for most of the game. b) we had shaved 2 points off of the Laker lead in the first 5 minutes of the game. Keep in mind that the Hawks were down 74 - 70 with 6:43 to play in the quarter. So it's not like we were clueless to start the 3rd quarter. But when the frontline started to get banged around a little, and we started to miss shots, the team melted down and the Lakers pushed the lead to 10 or 12. Woody counters this by inserting Crawford and then Zaza into the game ( taking out Marvin and then Smoove ), and the situation got even worse. Crawford especially played like garbage during that stretch. I just want the fan base to just one time . . ONE TIME . . solely blame the players for a loss that they had everything to do with. People are searching through garbage cans to find some sort of fault with Woody, when they know dang well why that game got out of hand.

Because it's pretty useless to do if if you're down by that many points, and aren't making shots to justify keeping on doing it. When you're down 10 with a minute to go, the way to get back into a game is to create a few turnovers . . . not trade baskets or free throws. So now the criticizm is . . . because Woody should've been practicing ( what we talkin about . . PRACTICE? ) a virtually impossible game situation, that the Hawks should've kept fouling or playing hard? And because he didn't instruct his players to do that . . Woody deserves to be questioned on it? Sorry man. Practicing that when you're down by that many points, is useless to me. If you're going to do that when you're down 10, you should do it when were down 20. That should only be practiced in a game in which we have a slim chance of winning . . not in a game that is over by all accounts. If that ain't nit-picking, I don't know what is. Even in the post that AHF cited, the 8 points in 11 seconds that Reggie Miller scored to beat the Pacers, it was done off of the strength of big time clutch shooting by Miller,and a push in the back ( ahem ) I mean, great defense by Miller. That comeback is widely regarded as one of the greatest comebacks in NBA history. And they didn't commit a single foul ( that was called ) to score those 8 points. And when you look at the Thunder, those fouls were committed by young guys who probably see the excessive fouling strategy done extensively in college. I bet that after the Blazers were up 9 with 30 seconds to go, that their coach wasn't telling them to foul. That game was over. All the Thunder did was probably make some people in Vegas happy or unhappy, when they kept fouling. I wonder what the point spread on that game way? It had to be close to 9 in favor of the Blazers.

That's the one criticism that if people wanted to heap on Woody, is possibly not playing Collins. But that run happened so quickly, the move wouldn't have mattered much in the grand scheme of things. They were down 74 - 70 with 6:43 left in the 3rd . . and just completely melted down after that point. It's like they went brain dead for 5 minutes. Like aliens kidnapped them or someting.

And who could've he be possibly talking about, with the "soft" comment? He'll take the diplomatic route, and say it's the entire team. But all of us know who is "soft" and who isn't on this squad. The "softness" only shows up against strong, athletic frontlines. LOL @ JJ . . telling it like it is. JJ is a little soft himself too, but it seems as if he's driving to the hole a lot more than he did in the past. Good thing Aldridge is "soft" and Oden is a fouling machine.

And that move didn't have a damn thing to do with what happened in the 3rd quarter. Our bench didn't play bad at all in the 2nd quarter. Crawford and Joe Smith did their jobs that quarter and kept the game close. I think we were STILL LOSING when JJ went out of the game anyway in that 1st quarter, despite the 18 point explosion by him. It's hilarious . . the fan base chastizes Woody for playing him 39 minutes one night . . then blames him for pulling him out of the game in the first quarter, to get his usual 2nd quarter rest the next night. Dammed if he does . . dammed if he doesn't.

I never implied that Fisher wasn't doing anything. I watched the game just like you did. What I said that USUALLY in those situations, you're usually going to have an 80%+ FT shooter ( typically a guard ) handling the ball. And we were down 10 points ( 3 possessions ) at that point. You may see an NBA team foul if they are within 7 points, but not when they're down by 10 with under a minute to go. Come on fanatic. I've seen your posts in the past. You're much smarter than this. We can play this game all day long. So let's follow your scenario. The Hawks had been down double digits since midway in the 3rd. We were down 12 with a minute to go in that game, until Crawford gets a layup to cut it to 10 with around 50 seconds to go. So by your assertion, the Hawks should've fouled to extend the game, and especially fouled when Odom had the ball? OK. The likelihood of Odom missing 2 FTs is unlikely. He may not makes 2 FTs either. So he probably misses one and makes one. We're now down 11 with around 40 seconds to go. Eleven. But you want us to keep playing hard, under the "anything can happen" scenario? OK So the Hawks race down, hits a 3, and cuts the lead to 8 with about 30 seconds to go. Who will the Lakers get the ball to at this point? Odom? Doubt it. It'll probably be Kobe or Fisher, 2 excellent FT shooters. So we foul them, they make 2 FTs, and the lead is back up to 10 with 30 seconds to go. Fanatic, the next time you watch an NBA game, and you see a team excessively fouling to extend the game . . . with them being 10 points down with under a minute to go . . you post the game link here. That game was over the minute the Lakers stopped our mini run around the 3 minute mark. But if you want to blame Woody for not telling the guys to excessively foul at the end of a game, in which they were down double digits, knock yourself out. It'll just continue the cycle of blaming Woody for everything, and excusing the players for messing up to begin with.

LMAo . . damn. So all season, people have been crying about reducing JJ's minutes. But when JJ has a monster quarter, and Woody looks for the bench to sustain the effort, Woody gets questioned for not keeping JJ in? And Woody "allowed" JJ to be invisible for 20 minutes? Does Woody have an X-Box controller or something? It's incredible what some of you guys say sometimes. I mean damn. So JJ has one of the best quarters of his life, but Woody pulls him aside and says "JJ, we need you to dial it down a bit"? It had nothing to do with both Kobe and Artest or Odom running out at JJ, forcing him to give up the ball? JJ did try to score the ball, but after he came back in the game after his 2nd quarter rest, every shot except the 3 pointer at the end of the half was contested. The only person that really stepped up to help JJ, was Bibby. And let me ask you this about Josh Smith. And really think about your answer before you type it. When Josh Smith goes up against a good defensive PF, what usually happens? Here's a hint . . . I'll GUARANTEE YOU that he doesn't play like this against LaMarcus Aldridge, a guy who isn't known for his defense. So I guess in his case, Woody told Smoove . . "Hey Josh, I know you've had success driving the ball and being a playmaker for us the past 2 games . . but tonight . . I don't want you to mix it up at all on the inside. I want Horford to battle Odom and Artest by himself on the boards, and you stay out of his way. And oh yeah . . if you want to go back shooting long jumpers tonight, you have my blessing to do so." Is that what Woody told him?

Nope. It's funny though. People bash Woody every chance they get for the littliest of things, and it basically gets a pass on this board and on other blogs/message boards. But when I defend him, I'm the crazy one? If Woody makes a bad coaching decision, I have no problem calling that dude out. But when the players OBVIOUSLY melted down on their own, that has nothing to do with coaching. I posted this topic right after that run in the 3rd quarter, because I KNEW people would go back to blaming Woody. You call yourself "the truth". Well, be truthful about last night. Don't take the easy way out and bame coaching. For once, put the blame where it belongs.

Thank you. Anybody who watched the game would know that. I haven't even looked at the ESPN play by play log yer, but I'm sure it will show something similar to what you said.

Some teams are better at capitalizing on it, because they have stronger and more active frontlines. Woody is nowhere near as bad of a coach that people make him out to be. I just get tired of this fan base always blaming him for when things go wrong, and not the players in question. Whenever you virtually lose a game in a 5 minute stretch in which you have a million turnovers, leading to breakaway dunks on the other end, that's obviously a PLAYERS' LOSS. Hell, he put Crawford in, and even he played like ish during that stretch. The guy that people wanted JJ's and Bibby's minutes reduced for, couldn't even get it done. This wasn't a situation in which Woody got outcoached in the 3rd quarter. Those guys simply choked once the Lakers turned up the intensity. That's why I defend him. Because this loss OBVIOUSLY wasn't his fault. Not his fault at all.

And like I told you in the post, it doesn't matter how well JJ plays, if the frontline didn't step up. And our frontline got thoroughly spanked tonight. Even in the scenario you described, in which the superstar is scoring a lot of points, his team needs to help him in those non-scoring areas ( mainly defense and rebounding ). If a guy scores 40, but his team isn't rebounding and defending, his team will most likely lose. So while Kobe scored 41, he got A LOT of help in other areas. Their guys stepped up and helped Kobe. Our guys ran and hid in the bushes, leaving JJ and Bibby out to dry. Lebron had that great game against Boston on opening night, but still lost by double digits to Boston, because he got very little help.

That dunk surprised me. I thought he was about to shoot a floater, and he just rose up flushed that down with authority. At least he played well tonight.

It wasn't a terrible game all around. This team played decent in the first half. But once the Lakers started turning up the heat, we simply folded. This mainly happens against the teams with strong and active frontines. It only happens over and over and over against those types of teams. Smoove and Marvin can't access their He-Man powers from the crowd, when we're on the road. If those dudes wouldn't have collapsed for a 4 minute stretch, we could've stayed within 10 and maybe had a shot at the end to possibly win. But go ahead and use the cop out excuse, and blame Woody. God forbid the players take total responsibility for a loss.

You have to walk before you can run. We're past the crawling stage, so next is "walking". Before expecting to beat the Lakers on their home court, we need to beat a team like Portland first on their home floor. If they can consistently do that, maybe it will better prepare them against the BIG 3 and the top teams in the West.

So let me get this straight. The guards shot 51% FG, and the bigs shot 33% . . yet . . you want the bigs to get more shots? LOL. You know why the bigs didn't get the shots in this game? It's because they played SOFT and weren't nearly as aggressive as they normally are. Horford at least tried, but Marvin and Smoove were non-existant. The frontlines of Indiana and Washington are some of the softest in the league. That's why our guys were aggressive against those guys. As for Josh Smith, he got 2 or 3 assists in the 4th quarter, when the game was already decided. Overall, he played like straight garbage tonight, mainly because he didn't even come close to matching the effort of Odom. Add Marvin to that garbage list too, because he didn't show up at all. Matter of fact, up until the last 2 minutes of the game, JJ was leading this team in points, rebounds, and assists. Why is your 2-guard leading the team in rebounding, when we have one of the most athletic frontlines in the league? And some of you wonder why JJ looks mad or emotionless all the time. But go ahead. Put blame on the coach for the 4 minute collapse that decided the game. (( shaking my head ))

Foul at the end of the game? Why? So we could lose by MORE POINTS? This isn't college basketball, in which you have the 1 and 1. If you miss that first free throw, you can rebound the ball and go the other way. In college, when you reach the free throw foul penalty ( 7 fouls ), a team gets to shoot the 1 and 1 until the opposing team reaches the 10th foul. After that, they get 2 shots no matter what. The NBA is vastly different. Once a team reaches 5 fouls, the opposing gets to shoot 2 free throws . . no matter what. And in the NBA, most of the guards who will handle the ball in late game situations, are at least 80%+ free throw shooters. That's why you hardly ever see an NBA team excessively foul at the end of games. It's pretty much useless. It's almost an unwritten rule that if you're down more than 8 points with a minute to go, that the opposing team isn't going to foul you to extend the game.

Exactly. Now THAT'S "the truth". Woody called 2 timeouts in that damn quarter, and it still didn't help. Once the Lakers started to really push our guys around, they just folded. Coaching can't prevent guys who don't like to be pushed around, from folding up like a tent. I'm mainly talking about Marvin and Smoove tonight. But I guess all of that is Woody's fault I guess. I'm sure he's taking the brunt of the blame on RealGM, ESPN, and on the AJC blog comments. Him and probably JJ, for not scoring 40 to help us win. LOL . . this team scores 110 points on the road and still loses. They should've saved some of those points for Portland. Oh well . . no time to cry during the NBA season. We got 4 more games just this week.

Because everytime these players play like ish, that's always the excuse. This team just straight up collasped and got outworked on the frontline. This doesnmt have a DAMN THING TO DO WITH COACHING. It's a shame that people don't put the responsibility where it belongs. When your frontline plays soft, and your guards turn the ball over time and time again, that's not coaching folks. It ain't the offense either, because they were running the same ish in the first half that they were running in the 3rd quarter. It's just that the Lakers turned the intensity WAY UP, and we didn't even come close to matching it. LOL . . . what a 3rd quarter by the World Champs. Having said all of that, you only have 24 hours to cry about this game. In the NBA, there's no way in hell you can dwell on a performance like this.