TheNorthCydeRises

@KDT: I have to admit that I DO NOT LIKE JAMAL CRAWFORD!!! But he's a Hawk, and my love for this team goes beyond my like or dislike for ANY PLAYER on this squad. And that includes Joe Johnson. So I'll support Jamal . . until he starts selling us out. Hopefully, he won't do that on most nights. Those PER 36 stats are the reason I don't like him. The shooting percentages don't lie. They're not that low because he's playing against starters. They're that low because he TAKES HORRIBLE SHOTS. For a guy that has the ability to take his man off the dribble almost anytime he wants to, he'd rather settle for that inconsistent jumper of his. A jumper that he'll even take off balance from 20 - 25 feet away. The bad thing, is that he'll hit that type of shot on occasion, even when fouled. It's like a Josh Smith 3-pointer in the 1st quarter. You're glad he made the shot, but you cringe, because you know he's jacking up at least 3 more. And exactly what Salim used to do. Take long jumpers and tough, off-balanced shots, merely because he has the ability to make those types of shots on occasion. Not consistently though. That's why teams ( good teams ) have never gone after Crawford, until we did. If he plays efficient b-ball with the Hawks, I'm giving Woody a ton of credit. I'll say this about Salim though. He didn't have a bench player mentality. He had a #1 guy mentality. If Salim was the best scorer on a real bad team, and had the green light to shoot anytime he wanted, he could average close to 20 ppg, because he'd be able to create enough space to take his jumper. Now granted, his FG shooting % would probably be between 38 - 40%, but he'd have nights where he'd literally explode on people to keep that average up. @ AHF: Redick should definitely be out the league. Unless he can become Steve Kerr next year, that's probably his fate. Salim's height kills him though. Maybe if he were 6 - 3, he'd might have a chance to stick around in this league. I think he's a better player than Redick. But Redick is 6 - 4 ( i think ), and that helps him a lot. You'd think Salim should at least be able to play an Eddie House type role, but he takes too many bad shots and is too streaky of a shooter. @ Floyd:

Just do it in the games Jamal. Do it in the games. If you're hot, then by all means keep shootng the rock. But if you're cold, don't you dare keep jacking up those jumpers. Hopefully Woody will be able to maximize Jamal's all-around offensive ability and turn him into at least an average defensive player.

LOL . . don't believe me? Well take a look at each player's Per 36 minute career stars. ( the bad thing about this, is that I knew they were similar before looking this up . . . but not THIS CLOSE!!! ) SALIM'S PER 36 #s pts - 17 rebs - 2.9 asst - 2.2 stls - 0.7 turn - 2.1 FG% - 40.7 3FG% - 36.6 FT% - 88.2 JAMAL'S PER 36 #s pts - 16.8 rebs - 3.0 asst - 4.6 stls - 1.2 turn - 2.3 FG% - 40.4 3FG% - 34.7 FT% - 84.3 When you look at these numbers, the only difference between Salim and Jamal, is that Jamal is by far the better playmaker. But from a shooting standpoint, Salim is slightly BETTER. In general, they're both . . . - streaky as hell as shooters - settle for way too many long jumpers - shows little defensive awareness ( Salim is better defensively if you ask me ) - haven't shown the ability to guard their man efficiently A lot of people are thinking we're getting this steal of a player in Crawford. We will see. All I know is that he has a reputation of having the worst shot selection in the NBA. If he plays efficient basketball in Atlanta, Woody might be a Coach of the Year candidate. Crawford is more JR Rider, than he is Joe Johnson. But he's most like his "4-inch shorter, separated at birth" twin brother . . . Salim.

LOL . . last year, Crawford went 3 - 15 FG in Atlanta, for 6 points, the night before he dropped 50 on Charlotte. The dude is either red hot, or ice cold. Hardly no in between with Crawford. Salim Stoudamire once scored 25 in the 4th quarter. ( I think it was 25. I'm referring to the game in New Orleans back in 2006, where the Hawks were damn near down 30 in the 4th quarter, but he starts bombing away to bring us within 1 point . . . I think we lost that game by 3 ) Does that make Salim elite? Nah . . it just makes him hella streaky. If Salim was 6-5, he'd be a Jamal Crawford clone.

You maybe have 5 or so 'elite' players in the league . . ( Kobe, Lebron, Wade, Duncan, with maybe the next 5 being 'semi-elite' . . after that, you have 10 - 15 all-star caliber players who are very good, but only show elite level ability once every blue moon. This is JJ's group. Now if one of those 10 - 15 guys is playing alongside an elite, semi-elite, or all-star, then they'll get paid "what their worth". But if a guy is the lone all-star on the team, he usually gets 'semi-elite' money ( 16 - 18 million ).

Excellent article. It would've been very easy for the ASG to can Woody after that 3rd season in which we won 30 games. The JJ injury that year probably saved his job. Plus it made financial sense to let him play out his contract, seeing that the Hawks, at that time, was still an afterthought for most ATL sports fans, behind the Falcons and Braves. Other from hardcore Hawk fans, ( which by the attendance numbers weren't that many ) there really wasn't any pressure to fire Woody. Letting him coach that 4th year, and finally getting him a decent combo guard ( Bibby ) to play alongside JJ, made all the difference for Woody. It's funny though. Most fans would still consider Woody a C- coach at best . . yet, expect the Hawks to legitimately challenge the "Big 3" for one of the 2 spots in the Eastern Conferene Finals. It kills people to actually give the guy some credit for having this team in the position they're in right now. It's kind of wild that Sund gets praise for his GM work, but Woody gets none for doing all of the dirty work the past 5 years. It would be messed up if Woody made the playoffs for the 3rd straight year, but got fired because the Hawks had another poor showing in the 2nd round against one of the Big 3. If that happened, the pattern of Mitchell, Jordan, and Cheeks will continue through Woody. The organization would've been parient enough to let him mold and build the team up . . but not patient enough to see if he and the guys can challenge for a title.

Can't disagree with anything you said. But you know how these sportswriters are with these lists. Rose's playoff performance probably has some of them believing that he'll average 25 pts and 8 assists this season.

http://www.slamonline.com/online/blogs/the-links/2009/10/top-50-joe-johnson-no-20/ Basic fluff piece about JJ. Their top 50 is interesting though. I like how they're doing one player a day. With Josh Smith being ranked, that gives the Hawks 2 of the top 50 players in the league this upcoming season, according to them. It'll be interesting to see the guards they have ranked above JJ. I think Derrick Rose is going to be one of the surprise guards they already have in the top 20.

To me, JJ being "elite" has nothing to do with him trying to play like Kobe, Lebron or Wade. He's nowhere near as athletic as they are, so he shouldn't try to play like them, or should fans expect an "elite" JJ to play like that. They are athletic freaks who are slashers first, and jumpshooters 2nd ( although Kobe can do bith equally well ) To me, an "elite" JJ becomes one of the most deadliest shooters in the league. That's what he is . . . a shooter . . not a slasher. So if anything, an "elite" JJ plays like a cross between Mitch Richmond and Reggie Miller . . with Clyde Drexler's playmaking ability. Or in modern day terms . . he plays more like a better shooting, but less slashing version of Paul Pierce ( who shows flashes of elite play from time to time ) JJ's ppg total of 21 - 22 ppg doesn't have to increase. But if he's going to be "elite", ne needs to be shooting close to 50% FG . . over 40% 3FG . . and close to 85% FT. That's "shootng guard" elite numbers.

I'm usually on the high end of these predictions. But with expectations being kind of high this year, I'll probably be near the middle. 51 - 31 . . 2nd in division . . 4th in conference And that's only if Crawford plays efficient basketball. If he's going to be our 6th man, we can't get the Golden St. version of Crawford. He can't be the red hot or ice cold performer that he normally is. He has to be consistent and steady every night. If we get the bad Crawford, and none of the kids raise the level of their game, we might be as low as 42 wins and fighting for our playoff lives. I probably should split the difference, and say 47 wins . . but I'll stick with 51.

Great post Jerry. You've pretty much validated everything I've said all summer, with the actual numbers. To me, Lebron or Wade leaving their current team, is what is going to trigger chaos and a mini bidding war around the league. If they stay put, I like our chances to retain JJ. New York, New Jersey and Minnesota are the main teams that I think will go that extra mile to get a JJ ( probably a little under a max contract ). Whomever goes after him, they [edit] may be willing [/edit] to give him more money in the first 4 years of this deal, than we will. It's those extra years we can give him, that may be the difference.

Might as well add Vince Carter too.

Shawn Marion and Ron Artest are the most glaring omissions off that list. Peja #5? LOL. If JJ is a cxandidate for SF, then you also have to add Latrell Spreewell as a SF as well. He was the SF when Minnesota made it to the ECF back in 2005.

LOL @ gsuteke. Yeah, he's definitely an expert on bad teams. Especially bad teams that don't play defense. Having said that, unfortunately MemphisX is right. That team would have Bibby and Crawford starting. They instantly become the worst defensive backcourt in the NBA. Not only that, but Crawford would lead the team in shot attempts, seeing that he's the guy who can get a shot ( good or bad ) anytime he wants. Any team with a good offensive PG or SG would absolutely kill us. And because both Bibby and Crawford are streaky, they's shoot us out of games. At least when JJ is streaky, he's good enough defensively to get stops on the other end. The kids ( Smoove, Marvin, Horford ) would be fine. But one of them would really have to establish himself as a possible #1 guy, in order to keep this team afloat. Smoove is the most likely candidate to do this. The last time he was in that situation, was in the 2006 season when JJ got "hurt" ( more like held out, so that the team could tank and possibly get a better position in the lottery ). He actually played well. Then again, Salim looked like a mini Ben Gordon during that stretch. I think we immeadiately won 4 straight after JJ went out, then proceded to lose about 70% of the rest of the games. To be honest, I don't think this team: Bibby - Crawford - Marvin - Smoove - Horford is all that much better than this team: Terry - Glover - Big Dog Robinson - Shareef - Ratliff The 2nd team never won more than 35 games, mainly because of horrible defense. I'll say the first team wins 30 - 35 games, because Crawford can't be counted on as a possible lead guy.

And your mistake is that you take more stock in idiot sportswriters whose job is to have an opinion not necessarily based on FACTS, than to actually study the situation for yourself, and see if what Schultz is saying is true or not. It has nothing to so with "knowing it all". It has everything to do with knowing how the free agency system works, according to our financial situation. The fact is that it may have very well been possible to make a play for Wade or Bosh . . IF . . we'd kept Speedy and Acie for one more year ( approx 8 mill ) . . let Bibby or Zaza go last summer. . and then let JJ go next summer. Of course, doing all of that may or may not have jeapordized our playoff hopes for this upcoming season. But it would've had us in a great position to make a play for one of the major free agents in the summer of 2010. But even if we completely let JJ go next year, we don't have nearly enough money to make a play for anybody major . . except JJ . . unless you want to trade Smoove for somebody ( which the fans obviously don't want to do ) The pinned thread on our cap situation is correct. What AJC sportswriters usually tell you, is usually based on opinion, with little facts to back them up.

It makes no sense for either ATL or MIA to make a JJ / Wade deal, because they would have to do that before the trade deadline, and most important, they'd have to get into a bidding war anyway to re-sign both of them next summer. Now JJ for Iggy . . lol . . do you really want to team JJ up with Elton Brand, in return for Iggy? Good lord. While Iggy could be considered a poor man's D-Wade, he's one of the worst jumpshooters in the league. That trade would at least keep us around the 40-win mark though. It's funny though. No one wants to trade JJ for a real good PF, because that means that the fan favorite ( Smoove ) would have to go to the bench.

LOL . . damn. JJ may not be worth 20 million, but he's going to get more than 14 - 15 million. It's amazing to me how people expect a 3-time all-star ( consecutively ), to just settle for the first offer the organization gives him. An offer [edited] which is basically an extension of the per year payout of his current contract. [/edited] If they trade him, they better make the right trade, or it could be disasterous. He's a top 5 SG in the NBA, and he's gonna get paid. If not by us, by somebody.

That's the kind of spot play lineup you throw at the Lakers, when they go with Bynum, Gasol, and Odom on the frontline. Also, with gunners like Jamal and JJ in the game, you may can get away with playing Smoove at SF . . ONLY . . if he puts his hand on the Bible and swears that he won't take a jumper, take the ball to the hole, and promises to relentlessly crash the boards.

I agree. I just think we can't downplay a potential 10 - 20 million dollar difference in the life of a contract. These players also have egos, and have an idea of how much other players at their position are making. If they don't have an idea, their agents make sure they have an idea. So when a guy like JJ sees a Michael Redd making around 17 million . . and then he sees a Rashard Lewis making a ridiculous 19 million . . and then sees an Andrei Kirilenko making an even MORE RIDICLOUS 16 million . . JJ and his agent are probably sitting back and saying . . . "hey, why are you offering us 15 million, when Redd is making 17 million, and ain't did jack ish in the NBA?" Yeah, we all know that those players, especially AK47 and Lewis are grossly overpaid. But that's how the league is. And the Lewis contract speaks volumes about the extreme a team may do, in order to bring in a star player. Seattle ( with Sund, by the way ) was in the same position we are in now. They pretty much let Rashard shop the market for a deal, and he got a great one in Orlando. I shouldn't even say what happened in Seattle after that. We all know. So while Cleveland may not be a desireable destination, teams like New York and New Jersey, who can pay 2 star caliber players . . or a Minnesota, who have a nice collection of young players like the Hawks, are more of a threat to me to toss big money at JJ. Sund has made adequate moves so far, but it's not like this guy has a stellar track record over the years, with some of his past trades and free agent moves. The jury is still out on him, as much as anybody, as far as I'm concerned.

@ gsuteke: Unless I looked at the Cavs salary structure wrong, ( accordng to Hoopshype ) the Cavs will have 48 million in salary commited to their players in 2010 - 11 . . IF . . Lebron didn't opt out, and took the 17 million he's due next year. Now if the scenario is that Shaq is let go, and Lebron doesn't want to come back to the Cavs ( so they renounce his rights to eliminate his cap hold ) . . by what I see, the Cavs set payroll for 2010 - 11 will now stand at around 31 million. If they did that, they now have enough money to splurge on whomever they want. For that squad, I'd probably go Amare first, the Wade, the Bosh, then JJ. @ Walter: That's probably what Babcock was thinking back in 1994, when Nique wanted a multi year deal and more money. They didn't want to risk losing him for nothing, so they dealt him for the younger, supposedly more versatile Danny Manning. I actually agree with you about Kevin Martin. At 11 mill for the next 2 years, he'd be a sensible alternative for losing JJ the shooter. And financially, it's a fiscally sound move. But to me, it would be a move reminiscent of how Phoenix runs their team. Their fans go crazy every time there's talk about them losing one of their star players, simply because the owner worries more about the financial bottom line, than the product on the court. So while we'd gain an equal, or possibly even better shooter than JJ, we lose the other intangibles that JJ brought to the table. The, when the team falls back to around .500 or below, the fan base would become enraged at management, and their bad decisions. But if for some reason if JJ and the Hawks are struggling near the All-Star break ( like a .500 record ), and are fighting just to make the playoffs, moving JJ at the deadline may be the way to go. But you only trade him if he AND the Hawks are struggling. But if we're the #1 seed, like we were in 1994, then we bet not trade JJ, no matter how inconsistent he is. @ mrH: Defintely agree with you. If we do have a successful season, and JJ is a big reason for it, the team probably will give him more money anyway. But no way should they freak out and try to do a "smart move by trading JJ", just to make sure they have somebody next year to replace him. We can't replay 1994 again . . with a team showing signs of really making noise in the playoffs, but management so afraid to lose their star for nothing, that they make a mid-season move to move him. I still say that Crawford was Sund's "worst case scenario" solution to possibly losing JJ next summer.

Definitely a good read. When I saw the stat about the FT/TO ratio, I said to myself, that has to because of Marvin . . and sure enough, it was. That's because it seems like the only time he'll make a turnover, is when he's driving to the hole and someone draws a charge on him. I need to check 82games.com and see how many bad pass turnovers and charges he had called on him. I think they keep stats for both categories. Once again, Woody will get little credit for all of this, including the team's improved offensive and defensive ratings, but he's used to it by now. JJ does need to elevate his game back to the level he showed back in 2005, when he shot 47% FG and 38% 3FG. If we can get that version of JJ next year, we become really dangerous. That version of JJ had very few 7 - 17 FG nights. Then again though, that version of JJ played very well with Al Harrington, a guy who was a legit #2 option on the team who could score from the outside and down on the block. And we all agree that the X-factor is Josh Smith. Always has been. If he abandons the long range jumper, and limits the amount of short range jumpers he takes, we'll see him become a 50%+ FG shooter. That only helps him, and the offense as a whole. The switching defense is great, until we play Boston, and Pierce gets matched up on Bibby. Flip wasn't a great defender, but he was tougher than Bibby. Crawford isn't tough, but he's longer than Bibby. It's going to be very interesting to see if Woody can reduce some of Crawford's well known deficiencies on the defensive end. And if the situation arises that Crawford is switched on a Pierce, can he at least play big enough to make Pierce work for the shot. There is a chance that we could stay the same, or even slip a little, depending on how teams like Washington, Chicago, and Detroit play next year. But if most everything comes together for us, we should be that #4 seed again, and win 50 - 54 games. I'll go on the record right now, and say 51 - 31.

LOL . . gotta love the Squawk. I wonder how many people have me on ignore on this site, because I've been talking about this for I don't know how long. There are going to be at least 6 teams ( possibly more ) that are going to be able to make a play for JJ. You fans that are "washing your hands" with JJ, or mad at him for not taking the lowball offer of the ASG, better understand that the NBA IS A BUSINESS . . not some kid's sport that you play strictly for the love of the game. So you guys are telling me that if you're working a job that pays you 50K a year . . and they come back and offer you 52K to return . . but you think that you can possibly make 70K a year doing the same thing somewhere else . . that you should STILL take the 52K offer, just because your current employer feels it's a "FAIR DEAL"? That's not reality folks. There is going to be a domino effect that's going to happen, if Lebron and/or Wade leaves their current team. And just because a guy like a Bosh or Amare may be better than JJ, it doesn't necessarily mean that a particular team won't pick JJ over those 2 guys ( assuming Wade and Lebron are already off the board ) Minnesota has Kevin Love and Al Jefferson on their frontline. They have my boy fron Syracuse ( Johnny Flynn ) running the point. The have Corey Brewer at SF. Now you tell me . . where is their NEED? Shooting Guard. You don't think for one minute that the T-Wolves will throw the bank at Lebron and Wade first . . then if they can't get him, go DIRECTLY AFTER JJ? Let's do it again. The Knicks could use ANY superstar or star free agent. With D'Antoni as their coach, what do you think their short list of targets look like? 1. Lebron 2. Wade 3. Amare 4. JJ You honestly don't think that the Knicks wouldn't salivate all over JJ, if they couldn't get one of the top 3? If JJ could get the Knicks back to the playoffs, he'd become the new King of New York. They'll try to anoint him the next Bernard King. If Wade leaves the Heat, and they don't re-sign Jermaine O'Neal . . they now have a TON of money to spend on whomever. You don't think they'll target JJ? If Lebron leaves the Cavs, and they don't re-sign Shaq . . they also have a ton of money to spend on whomever. You don't think they'll target JJ? And some of you are kidding yourselves, if you think that a team, a playoff team, that needs to upgrade it's lineup, wouldn't try to execute a sign and trade for JJ, and pay JJ the type of money that he could possibly receive. That team would get JJ, and the ASG would say "see, we got some "quality pieces" back in return for JJ. Players of JJ's caliber have routinely received 15+ million a year deals. Now the economy may see JJ making less money, if the teams that could offer JJ close to a max deal, start being more fiscally conservative. But I think you're about to see the opposite. And you saw that this year. A lot of guys that would typically command 8 - 10 million dollar deals, got 5 - 7 million dollar deals. The guys that would be worth 5 million, got 1.5 to 3 million deals. I think the star players are still going to get paid. It's the middle of the road type players ( like a Marvin ), and bench players ( like a Fiip ) that are going to make less money in this economy. You'll also see less teams being patient with slow developing rookie players. You're seeing a lot of one-year deals. Those are the guys that will see significant pay cuts, because they are easily expendible. Professional sports is a business. That's why I was saying all along to offer JJ a 5/80 - 90 ( 16 - 18 mill a year ) deal. Or if the max he could get was a 4-year extension, a 4/64 - 72 deal. Whether you think so or not, 15 mill a year was a lowball offer for a guy that literally brought ATL out of the depths of Hell, got us to the playoffs twice, and made 3 consecutive All-Star teams. If the ASG is really concerned about money, I still predict a Dominique-like trade in February involving Kevin Martin of Sacramento for JJ.

Hawks road wins during Woody's 5 year tenure: 4 8 12 12 16 The top teams can win 25+ games on the road. But like Buzzard said, it'll be nice to see the Hawks take that next step, and win at least 50% of their road games this year. If they do that, they'll have a shot at 50 - 55 wins. Personally, I want to see Crawford be the one that really steps up on the road. We know the kids will play well at home. But we need the vets to really step up their games in those hostile road arenas.

@ AHF: I could take the easy way out, and say that Mo DID make the All-Star team, while Josh Smith didn't. But I won't do that. I'll concede partially that Mo Williams didn't have the usual All-Star #s for a PG that makes an All-Star team. But what Mo did, was establish himself as the undisputed #2 option in that Cavs offense. The reason why he got the nod, was that he was playing at a borderline All-Star level in January and February, averaging around 19 ppg as the Cavs 2nd option. Did he deserve to make the team after Jameer Nelson couldn't play in the game . . absolutely. Plus, he was ranked #4 on the Northcyde Jumpshot Index last year. ( lol . . had to throw that in there ). As far as the formula, the Cavs did have: - the All-NBA player in Lebron - a top 5 defense ( mainly because they could get stops and rebound the basketball ) - Mo functioning sometimes as that 2nd All-Star ( more consistently in 2nd half of season ) - Big Z functioning as the 3rd scorer sporadically ( especially against the Hawks ) Mo sold the Cavs out a little with his erratic shooting in the playoffs. Big Z really sold the Cavs out, by not being able to be that 3rd guy offensively. As we know, that forced Lebron to try to do everything, which played right into Orlando's hands. If it wasn't for the luck shot that Lebron hit to win Game 3 ( I think ), the Cavs get swept. My whole argument against how the Wade / JJ swap somehow makes us title contenders, is the exact thing thart Craw mentions a few posts ago. The glaring weakness of this team was finding a #2 scorer, and some frontline help. Crawford supposedly solves the #2 scorer problem, but we address the frontline by basically adding 2 veteran, but scrub big men. Hopefully, they function as the type of "glue pieces" that every team needs. But the bulk of the work on the frontline has to be done by Horford and Josh. They're the ones that will have to elevate their games on a good team, in order for them to get to the next level. So if they don't do that this season, how are we going to deal with Orlando ( Howard ), Boston ( KG ) and Cleveland ( Shaq ) in the playoffs? And each of those teams now have an All-Star caliber G/SF to go along with that big man ( Carter, Pierce, and Lebron ). And they have a 3rd guy ( Nelson, Ray Allen, and now Mo Williams ) Then you look out West and see Lakers ( Kobe and Gasol + Artest ), Houston ( Yao and T-Mac . . if heallthy ), Denver ( Billups and Melo + JR Smith ), San Antonio ( Duncan and Parker + Ginobli ( if healthy ) All of those teams have "the formula". Even with a Wade on the Hawks, we still wouldn't have it. That's why I say it's more on one or two of the kids rapidly improving, in order to elevate us to "title contender level", than simply switching out an All-Star SG, for a Superstar SG. That doesn't mean we wouldn't be good, because we would. We just wouldn't be able to get it done as far as winning or even playing for a title. The "formula" is correct far more often, than it is incorrect. The "formula" is also the reason why a team like Washington, ( with Arenas, Jamison, and Butler ), will more than likely NEVER contend for a title. They'll be good, but they won't be able to beat a team with "the formula" in a 7 game series.

Since Nique was mentioned, how many times has he played on a team that Hawk fans and the national media considered to be a "title contender"? When you look at his career, he never made it past the EC Semis. Despite his scoring and athletic exploits, the average fan and so-called NBA experts doesn't rate Nique as a top-40 player of all time. And this is partially due to his team's playoff "failures". People will quickly tell you that Scottie Pippen and James Worthy were better players than Nique. Unfortunately for Nique, he didn't have a Jordan or a Magic as a teammate. He had Doc Rivers and Kevin Willis as teammates. Doc and K-Will were good, but they weren't perennial All-Star talents. When superstar players have the burden to basically carry a team, that team is normally NOT a title contender, until at least that 2nd guy consistently plays at an All-Star level. That's why even if you swap a D-Wade for JJ, the Hawks are still not contenders UNLESS one of the kids can elevate their game to star level. Even the great Michael Jordan never contended for a title, until Scottie Pippen really staarted to flourish in that point forward role, becoming an All-Star caliber player. And while they get little credit, the frontline of Pippen, Horace Grant, and the "3-headed monster at center" ( Cartwright, Wennington, and Perdue) were an efficient offensive and decent defending frontline. Then you look at the last 3 Bulls titles, and you see that their 3rd guy was actually Dennis Rodman, who was a dominant rebounding and defending SF/PF that help elevate those Bulls teams to all-time great levels. Magic played with Kareem and Worthy, with Byron Scott occasionally being that 3rd guy . . along with a pletora of tough, defensive minded role players. Bird played with Dennis Johnson, McHale and Parish, with Ainge coming up huge on occasion. Isaiah played with Dumars and a very tough collection of big men that would knock you on your azz . . with Vinnie Johnson occasionally being that 3rd star. The year Portland got to the NBA Finals, Drexler played with Terry Porter . . and the much maligned Kevin Duckworth was pretty good at center that year. The 90s Seattle Supersonic teams had Payton and Kemp, with Detlef Schremph as the 3rd star. I'm forgetting somebody on those 90s Sonic teams though. The Knicks had Ewing, a nunber of guys who played the #2 role over the years ( Starks, Houston ), the ultimate PF enforcer in Charles Oakley ( and later Anthony Mason ), and a host of solid offensive and defensive players. For the Knicks though, I always believed that Ewing playing on the outside so much, prevented them from beating the Bulls and the Pacers. Speaking of the Pacers, they had Reggie Miller, but really didn't become contenders until Rik Smits started to develop at center. Add the Davis boys ( Antoine and Dale ), Mark Jackson, and later Jalen Rose to the mix. I think Detlef played with them also. The Houston championship teams of the 90s kind of deviated from the formula . . but only for one year. Olajuwon was a DOMINANT CENTER in 1994, surrounded by good frontline players in Otis Thorpe and a young Robert Horry, and about 4 to 6 three point shooting guards and forwards. The next year though, even they brought in future Hall of Famer Clyde Drexler to solidify that 2nd title. The Heat teams of the 90s had Mourning and Tim Hardaway. I think I'm forgetting someone on this Heat squad though. Of course Riley constructed them in the mold of the early 90s Knicks teams, with the offensive specialists and defensive role players on that squad. Utah languished as a 2nd tier team for years. Stockton and Malone was great. Mark Eaton was a defensive center, but hardly gave you anything offensively. It really wasn't until they added that reliable 3rd guy ( Jeff Hornacek ), that they really started contending for a title. The 1994 Hawks team that the #1 seed, was led by Nique ( although an offensively erratic one ), a defensive and playmaking PG in Mookie, and even Kevin Willis became an All-Star caliber PF. Add defenders like Augmon and Ehlo, and you have a contending squad in the post MJ era. Even the 1997 Hawk team that won 56 or 57 games, had Mookie, the sharpshooting Steve Smith, the Defensive POY in Mutumbo, and a very good Christian Laettner at PF. LOL . . and I'm still describing the contending teams of the 90s. I haven't even got to the squads of the last 8 - 10 years. I can pretty much do this all day, to show that you need those 2 All-Star caliber players + a 3rd guy + a defensive mindset, in order to be a true contender for an NBA title. This is why one of the kids developing into a consistent star player is VITAL for us contending . . even with the great D-Wade in a Hawk uniform. Without that, Wade is simply Nique reincarnated on those late 80s - early 90s Hawk teams, that would finish 4th - 8th in an Eastern Conference in which the teams to beat were Boston, Detroit, and a rapidly improving Chicago Bull team. For one more controversial comment, I'll say this. I don't think Josh Smith RIGHT NOW is as good as Kevin Willis in the late 80s. Defintely not better than Willis in the 90s, where he was averaging a double-double. Josh was a better shot blocker and and more exciting dunker, and that's it. Josh showed glimpses of what he could becme in that Cleveland series. If he consistently does that, while improving his defense and especially his rebounding, NOW you're talking about the Hawks being a title contender with a D-Wade here. But we'll see if he really means it, when he says that he'll leave the jumper alone. Bottom line is that one of these kids has to become a star, whether we have JJ or a hypothetical Wade here, to contend for a title. That's just the way the league works folks.