nsacmercury

It was a communication breakdown then. I was trying to convey that even while playing 100% within the rules, he is very capable of getting under opposing players skin and provoking reactions. He is just that type of player, and it may be the one talent he has that others lack haha. He clearly works hard just to barely stay in the league (even a good percentage of Cavs fans wanted him gone during the season). If he is setting out with the intent to injure others, I hope he gets what is coming to him and find himself quickly out of the league.

What exactly are you referring to? I specifically classified the Delly leg lock on Gibson as illegal, I called it bush league, I said it deserved a tech (and noted it was missed by the refs during the game). I really am confused as to where you could have possibly gotten the notion that I thought the leg lock was within the rules. I brought up legality solely because I was questioned on what the difference was between Delly and Olynyk. One player injured another performing an illegal play. The other one did it performing a legal one. That is a rather marked difference (continued below). How exactly am I conceding the legal argument? I never said all legal plays are clean. I never said all illegal plays are dirty. Now you are the one making assumptions. I fleshed it out so you could better understand. Legality matters because with an absence of known intent (as we have in this case), an illegal action that hurts others is worse than a legal action that hurts others. I'll use an analogy since you seem to be struggling to understand my viewpoint. A child's mother tells him he is allowed to play catch with his brother, but he is not allowed to wrestle with him. If the brother accidentally gets hit with the baseball cause he fails to catch it, a good mother isn't going to punish the child for it (the Delly-Korver example). But if the child wrestles with his brother and accidentally hurts him, wouldn't you fully expect some punishment for the disobedient child (the Olynyk incident)? As for my own personal feelings on Olynyk, I never stated I know he intended to do Love harm. In the same way you said you didn't think Delly was intending to injure Korver, my personal feeling is that Olynyk was trying to at the very least cause Love some pain. I fully acknowledge that my feelings on the matter may not be factually correct. But the point is when you do something so far outside of the realm of what is considered a legal basketball play, you are responsible for the consequences regardless of intent. Olynyk's play was illegal, it had foreseeable consequences, and it resulted in an injury to another player. Olynyk could have avoided injuring another player by not performing an illegal arm-bar. To avoid injuring Korver, Delly would have had to ignore years of what coaches told him to do in that circumstance. You are trying to assign an inconsistency to the logic that is simply not there. You may not agree with the logic, but it is not hypocritical when people consistently apply the logical conditions they are operating under. Where have I failed to consistently apply my logic (not yours) to situations that have been discussed? I already noted that Crowder got injured on an illegal play by JR that had intent to hurt him. I could have seen an even longer suspension for that frankly. And I will add to this, had Gibson been injured by Delly's bush league leg lock, he should have been suspended regardless of intent.

If it's friendly ribbing, I have no problem with it. And as I said, I apologize for lumping you in with the default way I expect Atlanta fans to interpret the Korver play. To me, you basically have 4 categories of play. A play can be legal with no intent to injure someone (we both would seem to feel the Delly dive fell into this bucket). A play can be legal with intent to injure someone (you would point to the Bowen example). A play can be illegal with no intent to injure someone (I would describe the Delly leg lock on Gibson this way - bush league but not malicious). And a play can be illegal with intent to injure someone (many Cavs fans would suggest the Olynyk play falls into that category). I don't see how classifying plays this way makes as much sense as arbitrarily deeming something a road injury vs a home injury. If we are looking at a single instance, intent to injure always makes a play dirty - whether it was legal or not. Unintentionally harming a player while performing a legal basketball play makes a play unfortunate at best and reckless at worst. And unintentionally harming a player while performing an illegal basketball play is reckless or worse. But again, I don't see the supposed hypocrisy.

If there is a loose ball in LeBron's area, I fully expect to see players dive toward the loose ball (whether Delly is on the team or not). And if LeBron fails to do what players are coached to do since they were children, he may very well find himself injured with no repercussions for the opposing team. Fans on both sides are starting with a viewpoint and interpreting incidents to support their viewpoint. That is not unexpected. Delly has engaged in 3 frequently discussed questionable incidents in 14 playoff basketball games. Teague has as at least 3 incidents in the same span that I am aware of (a flagrant 1 for striking Beal in the head, an elbow to the head of Delly on an inbound, and a knee to the face of Delly on another dive Delly made). I do not expect you to label those 3 events as a consistent pattern for Teague. I don't personally either. Basketball is a physical game. And I strongly suspect if you put enough focus on any one player, you are going to find a multitude of questionable and aggressive plays. Delly has come into focus because on his questionable plays, he has succeeded in getting under the opposing players' skin enough to provoke them into a response. As I believe the unprovoked elbow by Teague in Game 1 and the Teague foul on him in Game 4 demonstrate, he has a knack for annoying opposing players while playing 100% within the rules. So this is what passes for civil discussion? Calling me, or perhaps you are referring to other Cavs fans, illogical mouth breathers? I apologize though because I failed to register you were quoting your own post. The point really hasn't changed though honestly. Neither of really know that Delly wasn't setting out with intent to injure. But the elaboration about diving is obviously unnecessary to direct at you given your interpretation of the play (assuming of course it hasn't changed), so I'm sorry for that. I did however give you a clear explanation for how the Olynyk and Delly plays differ. The NBA allows one play and does not allow the other. You can personally reject that justification, but explain to me how I am being hypocritical if I apply that standard in every instance. For instance, I did not complain about the JR Smith ejection or suspension against the Celtics. JR Smith engaged in a dirty and illegal play and got what he deserved. It sucked to see as a fan, but I did not apply a different standard to it.

Again, unless you have legitimate insight into the intent of Delly, how can you say with certainty that his dive was anything other than "reckless" (a term that should be fair to describe a play where a player unnecessarily strikes the head of an individual with a serious pre-existing spinal condition)? For that matter, who dives for a basketball when no one is anywhere near the ball? There is always inherent risk when there is a loose ball, and players are typically going to dive for it when there are players nearby. Unless the NBA plans to ban diving, diving will almost always take place when a player is nearby. Are you arguing that players aren't coached to get on the floor when there is a loose ball? Are you arguing that it is wise to avoid diving and instead place your foot less than 12 inches from a loose ball? But we are at an impasse. You do not see any difference between arm-barring a player to the extent that his shoulder is dislocated (an illegal basketball play that was met with a suspension and could not have been avoided by the victim) and diving for a loose ball (a legal basketball play that happens nightly in the NBA, received no punishment, and a play whose unfortunate victim could have avoided injury by doing what players are coached to do from a young age). I have no way of explaining it to you more clearly than that. But you don't have to see the difference. All I was really asking for in this thread was avoiding taking potshots at a fanbase when they are giving their player the benefit of the doubt. I am not here telling anyone Delly isn't dirty. I said I don't know his intent, and he very well may be. I am not in here saying Horford is dirty despite intentionally dropping an elbow on a player for my team. All I am saying is consider it from the other viewpoint. But I guess that makes me the one blinded by bias and you the one who can say with certainty that Delly set out with the intention to injure players. That is a fair assessment of what I am saying on the classy-ness argument. The only point I would make about Delly being punished is why should he be if he is legitimately not seeking to injure anyone? I am not going to pretend that NBA refs are bias-less, but they are theoretically supposed to be. And there are perfectly reasonable interpretations of all 3 events that require no intent to injure an opposing player (arguments forwarded not only by Cavs fans but also by those who are reasonably unbiased). So the hope is the refs are doing their best to judge those plays and determine whether malicious intent was present. The Delly is definitely dirty viewpoint requires both claiming knowledge of intent that no one but Delly has and saying the refs have been intentionally biased in their interpretation of the events. Delly should have received a technical foul during the game against Gibson. That was definitely a missed call, but those happen all the time to both teams (a series of missed calls resulted in Delly being on the ground in the first place). If Delly dove at the ball with no intent to injure Korver, should he receive any punishment? The play is a legal basketball play. And if Delly simply was pulled off balance by Horford had his first foot collide with Horford's, and pushed off to try to regain balance/avoid DMC/soften his fall, then the tech he received seems excessive. On the flip-side, if there was intent to injure, the tech is far less than he deserves. I get the outrage and frustration. My initial reaction was that the calls for Delly being dirty were completely unfounded. But I took a step back and at least tried to see how I would go about supporting a position that Delly was dirty (one that an Atlanta fan should be expected to take by default), and I can see there is room for interpretation. It doesn't seem reasonable ask others to admit as much before they take potshots at an opposing team's fanbase. It still amazes me how people think one large group of similarly-minded people is so drastically different than their large group of similarly-minded people.

No. I am not saying Delly is not dirty. I am saying fans give their players the benefit of the doubt. That is a natural reaction, and it would be rather ridiculous to expect otherwise. As for a text message versus a hospital visit, the stakes seems a little higher with a spinal injury (particularly given a condition that could make a play like that result in paralysis) versus a high ankle sprain, don't you think? And the 3 "incidents" have resulted in exactly one injury. Yet so many people are acting as though Delly has ended dozens of careers. One guy had his leg locked (which certainly hurt a lot less than the illegal plays that preceded it). One guy had his ankle rolled after a loose ball diving play (a play that could have been dirty or could have had zero intent of causing harm). And one guy tweaked an already injured knee to no lasting detrimental effect (again a play that could have been dirty or could have had zero intent of causing harm). That is not exactly an impressive dosier for a hitman. In that same time period Delly was hit in the face by Gibson, Teague, and Horford, none of which had possession of a basketball, without a single whistle blown. But I guess that is completely acceptable. Please do let me know when the NBA outlaws diving for a loose ball though. I imagine I will be waiting a while. But I am not trying to convince you that Delly isn't dirty. I am merely saying neither of us know, so bias would lead me to think he isn't and you to think he is. Do you have some reason to think you are better capable of intuiting his intent than I am?

The largest difference between Delly and Olynyk? Delly's play was a legal basketball play and Olynyk's was not (as evidenced by his suspension). The sad part is Korver's injury could have been avoided (regardless of whether or not Delly is dirty) had he dove for the ball like players are coached to do. I fail to see how Kevin Love could have possibly avoided his injury once Olynyk arm-barred him. As for Horford, I cited an incident in 2007 because that was early in Horford's career, and it is early in Delly's career. Delivering a flagrant foul to the head of a player with a genetic spinal condition and a previous spinal cord injury seems at the very least reckless, no? I do not believe Horford is dirty (as I said before), and I was fully aware that he was contrite following the incident. But that doesn't change the fact that his reckless move affected TJ Ford's career and could have actually impacted his life off the basketball court. And at no point did I say it ended Ford's career. I said it affected Ford's career. He was out for 2 months, he lost his starting position, and he ended up traded to Indiana the following year. That started a steady decline in his starter's role and minutes per game. I don't see how Korver's career is going to be affected by the 2.5 games he missed.

I think that is an interesting point. If Delly is a dirty player, he is getting more of a pass than he deserves. If Delly is going out with no intention to harm anyone, then the media narrative has a very real chance of impacting his career. He certainly does not have the talent to overcome a media-generated reputation that makes him undesirable. Haha, I get the frustration. Cleveland fans understand it better than most. But do remember you guys crushed the Indians dreams :-p. I don't mean to stop the venting, but rather to question the reason for taking a potshot at the Cleveland fanbase for supporting a player they thought was being slandered. It's not like the Cavs fans cheered either Carroll's or Korver's injury. As for why Delly got a standing ovation, it's likely because he has taken a considerable amount of abuse on the court and off the court. If you believe he is completely clean and just out there giving his all (which Cavs fans by and large do), working with limited talent, then you want to support your player. Just imagine if Game 4 was in Atlanta and the run-up to the game was a bunch of media talk about Horford being a dirty player - don't you think the Atlanta fanbase would show support? But even beyond that, Cleveland fans wanted nothing more than to see a Cavs win to secure our spot in The Finals, giving us the best chance to end a 50 year championship drought we have had since the the late 90s. Fans have very little way to affect the outcome of a game beyond the energy they provide. If nothing else, the Delly dialogue was an excuse to get riled up as a fanbase and rally behind a player who normally wouldn't warrant that attention. I'd say the players fed off the energy, Delly included, and isn't making that sort of impact part of the satisfaction of being a fan? I do hope we meet next year with both squads at full strength. It sucked that both teams were so dinged up.

You don't have to personally believe Delly is a clean player. But as an Atlanta fan, certainly you can understand how fans usually give their players the benefit of the doubt right? No one seems to accuse Horford of being a dirty or reckless player. But the hit he delivered to Ford knocked him out for two months and appeared to affect Ford's career (and had the potential to cause long-term damage beyond the basketball court given his condition). Unless there are unexpected complications, I don't see how Korver's high ankle sprain in any way affects his career or life. So if I am not mistaken, Delly has caused as many injuries to other players in his two years in the league as Horford did in his first two years in the league. I do not think Horford is a dirty player (even after acknowledging he intentionally dropped an elbow on Delly). Delly I cannot be certain of one way or another because the sample size is so small. But I find it strange that so many Hawks fans take no issue with Horford dropping an elbow on Delly, yet take serious issue with Delly performing a mid-calf leg lock on Gibson after Gibson hit him in the head on a screen, bull-rushed him into the ground, and pressed his weight on him while getting up. My main point was it seems rather unfair to call a fanbase classless for supporting a player that no one genuinely knows the intentions of (outside of the player himself). Cavs and Hawks fans are biased by their support for their team. What makes any Atlanta fan here any more qualified to intuit the intent of Delly than a Cavs fan?

I am a Cavs fan and said as much in my first post here. In the same thread, a moderator said respectful conversation from opposing fans was welcome.

So is ot classy to call a fanbase classless for supporting a player they believe is being slandered? I do not know if Delly is dirty. Besides the man himself, no one can say with any certainty what the intent was on the 3 plays people discuss. So it is only natural that Cavs fans will give him the benefit of the doubt and Hawks fans will not. I will say this. Dirty or not, Delly takes a ridiculous amount of abuse on the court (see the lead up to the Gibson leg lock, the Teague elbows to the face, etc). I have never heard him complain about it to the media, and I have never seen him slow down because of it. If you were to feel there was no ill intent in his style of play (and fandom usually means giving your team's players the benefit of the doubt until proven wrong), can you understand why the Cleveland fanbase would get behind him? I am hoping for a good matchup next year. It would be great to start working at chipping away at the perceived disparity between the East and West (particularly at the top of the conference).

So suggesting Teague took a shot at Delly out of frustration is inflammatory conjecture (conjecture that is supported by at least one Hawks fan), but to suggest Delly was diving to take out Korver's ankle not secure a ball he had lost control of is irrefutable fact? I understand supporting your team, but I sincerely doubt you would feel the same way if Teague was the one taking an elbow to the face when Delly was inbounding. I might feel differently in your position about Korver You say I cherry pick a play here or there to make a point. Then what are you doing? You have pointed to exactly 3 plays (I pointed to 2). In 2 of the plays you pointed out, an opposing player fouled Delly into the ground with no call. That does not excuse him if he acted with intent to injure. But Horford's elbow is a perfect demonstration of how being provoked can lead anyone, even a high character player, to lash out. And I don't about you, but I'd much prefer to have my leg locked the way Gibson's was than have Horford drop an elbow on me. In both of the instances I pointed out, Teague was unprovoked and struck an opponent's head. I am not calling Teague a dirty player. But I do believe you are arriving at a conclusion (Teague is clean, Delly is dirty) and then looking at the incidents with the intent to support your viewpoint. I can look at each of those 5 plays and see arguments for intent to cause harm or lack thereof. I can't tell you definitively whether the players are dirty because I cannot read their minds and the sample size is rather low as you noted. You seem to be rather certain you can intuit intent however. Is there a reason you feel you are more qualified than I am in that regard? I feel bad that Korver's ankle was sprained on what I view as an unfortunate accident on a loose ball. I feel bad that Carrol tweaked his knee on what was certainly an unfortunate accident. I would have much preferred these two teams met at full strength. Either way, good luck tonight. I hope for a clean game on both sides.

Thanks everyone for your responses. Teague is a superior athlete to Delly in every way. He was among the leaders in assists during the regular season and postseason. So I am assuming the man has rather good vision and ability to process what he is seeing. But you believe Teague was unaware of where Delly's head was on an inbound, yet Delly has the vision and body control to how to maximize the injurious intent of his falls in the middle of active plays? Would you feel the same way if it was Teague As for history correct me if I am wrong, but didn't Teague get a Flagrant 1 against the WIzards for striking the head of Bradley Beal last series? So if Teague hits a player in the head tonight, will you want him off the Hawks? That establishes as much of a pattern as Delly (3 plays) if you take the harshest views of the Gibson, Korver, and Horford plays. And for some perspective review the entire Gibson play (including the screen GIbson set) and let me know how you would feel about the play if it had happened to Teague. Can you honestly say you would have no complaints if the Cavs did that to Teague tonight? I agree with you that Horford is a high character player and absolutely thought Delly was doing it intentionally to illicit the reaction from him it did. That said though, he has no more insight into Delly's intentions than anyone else. Even with the benefit of multiple camera angles and slow motion analysis, there is far from consensus even among former players as to whether Delly was intentionally attempting to launch into Horford to cause injury. Horford had no access to any of that of course. I cannot tell you whether it was intent by Delly to injure or not. I can see why some would view Delly as launching with the intention to injure. I can understand those that believe that effort was an attempt to avoid Carroll who it looked like Delly was going to land on. I can understand those who think Delly was just trying to regain his balance or keep bodying Horford out to ensure Jones secured the rebound. I don't know who is right. The only person who does is Delly. Strange how that seems to get lost by many in this matter. And unless there is some event earlier in game 1 I am unaware of, the shot Teague gave Delly was undeserved. This sort of thing happens to him regularly and goes completely uncalled. The shot Delly took wasn't even some difficult to see off-the-ball action. For another example of the abuse Delly takes, look at the Gibson play and tell me how you would feel if it was Teague on the receiving end of what Gibson did to Delly. The leg lock was absolutely bush league, but it came after taking a tremendous amount of uncalled abuse and had virtually no chance of causing injury. Would you rather take an elbow the face like Teague gave or get your leg locked in the manner Gibson did? Unless there is some incident I am unaware of, Teague delievered a more painful and dangerous shot to Delly than Delly did to Gibson with far less provocation. And yet no one is calling Teague dirty. But somehow, the Gibson leg lock is being used as proof Delly was dirty. Somehow I don't think Hawks fans would feel the same if Teague was on the other side of the elbow he threw or the uncalled fouls of Gibson. I hope for a good clean game on both sides. Basketball is a physical game, and I hate to see injuries. My immediate thought on the Carroll, Korver, and Curry plays was that I hope they do not result in injury.

I am a Cleveland fan. I was impressed with the Hawks fight in Game 3. That was a game I truly believed Atlanta was going to take (the final possession in regulation would have made me livid in your position). My stance on Delly is rather predictable given my allegiances, and I might feel differently if I were a Hawks fan. I suspect Hawks fans might feel differently if Delly was on their team as well. But I will say Delly takes a lot of abuse from opposing teams that seems to go completely unnoticed/uncalled. For all the talk of Delly being a dirty player though, I haven't seen anyone draw attention to this: https://vine.co/v/eA9LhvIiWqj That incident happened in Game 1, obviously before either of the incidents with Korver or Horford. From a Hawks perspective, how would you classify that play by Teague? Good luck tonight.