Packfill

Quote: Quote: I'm mad he's gone but in the Hawks defense we offered him the best deal (most money) he could get in the nba. He doesn't have to like it but it was a good offer that represented his value to an nba franchise. The Hawks can't compete with another league that is operating under different rules for salaries/caps etc. You can compete by making the team something that people want to be a part of. Money goes far, but moving overseas is not an easy move (I've done it). You have to want to leave before the offer comes in. The ASG have produced a corporate culture that people do not want to be a part of. Look at the Braves as an example of guys willing to take a little less money to be a part of a great organization. Other examples can be found all over sports. No, the ASG couldn't compete for that ridiculous monetary offer made, but that was only the tipping point in a bad relationship between Childress and Hawks management. Childress wanted out because the Hawks were not something he wanted to be a part of. I do blame the ASG for creating such a bad place to work. I can't disagree.

I thought that the European teams wanted their American imports to be good scorers. I am not certain Childress fills that role, but he should be a solid player and work within the team concept.

Quote: Before i start this, let m say that i have no problem bringing back both Smith and Chill. But I am prepared to see how this team would look and how individuals would respond, without one of them here. But we're only 2 weeks into the free agency period. The market for UFAs has been robust, while the market for RFAs has been tough going. I personally think all of these teams are dealing the right way with these RFAs. You don't grossly overpay for a guy who is not the best player on your team. You just don't. This is partially why Phoenix decided to let JJ go in a S&T to us 3 years ago. There have been so many overpaid players in this league, that it's ridculous. I'm not talking about guys who make 6 mill, but are only worth 3 or 4. I'm talking about the Rashard Lewis type of player, who is good, but is nowhere near good enough to command the dollars that he received. Overpaying a player, especially a mid to high dollar one, can be just as damaging to a team than not retaining him at all. There are too many Wally Szczerbiaks, Boris Diaws, Tim Thomases, and Rashard Lewises in this league, that have flat out stolen money since they've gotten off of their rookie contracts. So it's important for an organization to evaulate the worth of a player, and stick to its guns. It's also important for a player to get the most money he possibly can from these teams. I think these organizations see what the Spurs do, and envy them. Not only can you make the argument that their 2nd and 3rd best players are underpaid, you can also say that the Spurs NEVER overpay for people . . . NEVER. They have a knack for finding the right type of player to fit their system, and they get the most they can out of them in 2 - 3 years. Then they replace him with another player of worth. When you look at a guy like Stephen Jackson, who first came to fame with that first Spurs title team, the organization took a hard line, and refused to overpay for the guy. Bruce Bowen was his eventual replacement. A cheaper, just as good of a 3 point shooting, and better defending version of S-Jax. The result: they don't lose a beat as a team, while retaining a ton of money to re-sign Duncan, Parker, and Ginoboli. Question #1 for Hawksquawk: Can the shooting of Jeremy Richardson, the defense of Mario West, and the increased presence of Acie Law on the floor, more than make up for the possible loss of Childress? If the answer of that question is YES, the ASG may just let Chill walk. Possible lineup and breakdown of minutes. PG: Bibby ( 26 minutes ) - Acie ( 22 min ) G: JJ ( 24 min ) - JR ( 10 min ) - West ( 10 min ) - Bibby ( 4 min ) F: Marvin ( 34 min ) - JJ ( 14 min ) PF: Smith ( 36 min ) - Horford ( 12 min ) C: Horford ( 24 min ) - Zaza ( 16 min ) - Kwame ( 8 min ) Total player minutes: JJ - 38 Smith - 36 Horford - 36 Marvin - 34 Bibby - 30 Acie - 22 Zaza - 16 JR - 10 Mario - 10 Kwame - 8 With Mario's and JR's playing time, it would be game specific. Mario would play more when we needed tough defense. JR would play when we're playing a run and gun team. But the question is, could the production we receive from them and Acie, trump what we got from Chill? And that brings us to Smith. Question #2: Can Horford and Marvin elevate their games to the point where Smith isn't missed at all? Contrary to popular belief, losing Smith isn't a doomsday scenario. People thought the same thing when Nash left Dallas and when Iverson left Philly. The key in both of those situations, is that they had a guy, or multiple guys who stepped up and compensated for the loss of that great player. For us, that would have to be Horford and Marvin offensively making up for what Smith brought, and Zaza playing with the tenacity on the defensive end he showed in the playoffs. PG: Bibby ( 24 min ) - Law ( 24 min ) G: JJ ( 38 min ) - Chill ( 6 min ) - Bibby ( 4 min ) F: Marvin ( 24 min ) - Chill ( 24 min ) PF: Horford ( 30 min ) - Marvin ( 12 min ) - Jones ( 6 min ) C: Zaza ( 28 min ) - Kwame ( 12 min ) - Horford ( 8 min ) Total minutes: JJ - 38 Horford - 38 Marvin - 36 Bibby - 28 Zaza - 28 Chill - 30 Law - 24 Kwame - 12 Jones - 10 In the Smith leaving scenario, you're really looking at our frontline being under the gun to elevate their games. Horford and Marvin have to become more efficent scorers, even volume scorers at times. And if you noticed, a guy like Solomon Jones becomes more important than a Richardson or West, if Smith isn't retained. In both scenarios, the opportunity for guys to step up and elevte their games will be there . . much like Monta Ellis, Gilbert Arenas, Jermaine O'Neal and Joe Johnson, and a host of other players who have gotten opportunities to step up. Too funny.

Philadelphia and the Clippers using all their cap space was the worst thing to happen to the ASG. Now, instead of just matching an offer - an offer that someone else came up with - they have to figure out the value on their own how much Smith is worth. They no longer have the safety net of someone else setting Smith's value. I am sure the ASG will come through in the end.

Quote: Quote: Quote: http://www.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php...827106&start=45 Quote: Just aired on European sports television. Josh Childress SIGNED a 3 years $20 million net contract that is equal to a 3 years $33 million gross NBA contract with the Greek league club Olympiacos Piraeus. There it is! Childress got the equal of an $11 million a year NBA contract from a Greek club. He arrived at 10 to Athens and officially signed the contract. Report is the only way Childress does not play in Greece next year is if "something totally unforeseen happens from here on out". This guy is far from reputable, but it's not looking good. Boy I hope that is not true. Could the ASG/Sund have alienated Childress that badly? It has nothing to do with Sund or the ASG alienating Chillz. In today's market and with the reality that we are in a recession the most Chillz could hope for in the American market was the MLE at about $6 mill a year. Kudos to Chillz for being creative and flexible in finding a way to make some money that no American team would have ever paid him. (If the $11 mill a year statement is true.) I guess we will see if Childress opens the flood gates.

Quote: http://www.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php...827106&start=45 Quote: Just aired on European sports television. Josh Childress SIGNED a 3 years $20 million net contract that is equal to a 3 years $33 million gross NBA contract with the Greek league club Olympiacos Piraeus. There it is! Childress got the equal of an $11 million a year NBA contract from a Greek club. He arrived at 10 to Athens and officially signed the contract. Report is the only way Childress does not play in Greece next year is if "something totally unforeseen happens from here on out". This guy is far from reputable, but it's not looking good. Boy I hope that is not true. Could the ASG/Sund have alienated Childress that badly?

Quote: Seriously. Raise your hands. I think the members of this board are deserving of a thread in which they can rant about these Morons that run the Atlanta Hawks WTF is next? Just when you think you've endured it all these @ssholes find another way to slap you in the face! I think the only major plunder of the last few months was retaining Woody (although my confidence in Sund is not high). Everything else is a byproduct of previous off-season miscalculations/mistakes. Too me though, the biggest problem with the Hawks organization is the owners themselves. Obviously they do not get along as a group and the "Spirit" faction has been taken behind the woodshet a few times to many by Belkin - which makes me think they probably don't know what they are going. It sucks, but what are you going to do. Hopefully they pull things together and sign the two Joshes and then get some veteran bench help.

Quote: Please tell me what major RFA have signed offer sheets or contracts this offseason? How many signed last offseason to extensions? Only extensions were K-Mart and Dwight. Its standard operation for restricted free agency. Don't get your panties bunched up because we are right now in the dullest months of the year. Al Jefferson signed an extension last off-season as well.

I am not sure he is better then either Marvin or Chill, but he would fit a need. What is up with Kobe's jersey in the picture you posted? "Los Lakers"?

Quote: Quote: Agreed. Reef was not all that bad. In fact, he was pretty good at times. Certainly you can't really fuss about him over Gasol. The worst mistake a franchise can make is picking the wrong player to build around. That is exactly what we did with Reef. You cannot have a succesful rebuild without the right guy. BK's pick of JJ has proved to be much better then Kasten's pick of Reef. Gasol was 20 and Reef was 25 at the time of trade. Supposedly Reef would keep us competitive and allowed us to make the famous "Playoff Guarantee"...LOL For this trade to equal out Reef and company needed at least one play off appearance. (He could make the Grizz competitive with a young Bibby so how could he accomplish that here ?) Gasol took a similarly talented Grizz team to the playoffs 3 times and Reef did it zero with the Hawks....the only season Reef was truely better then Gasol was Gasol's rookie season in 2001-02. Ever since then Gasol has been the better player. Now was in scrub and the other is a border line star. Reef WAS not bad at all but he is was not and is not as good as Gasol: Gasol's stats since the trade: Career Season Averages Year Team G GS MPG FG% 3P% FT% OFF DEF RPG APG SPG BPG TO PF PPG 01-02 MEM 82 79 36.7 0.518 0.200 0.709 2.9 6.0 8.9 2.7 0.5 2.1 2.73 2.40 17.6 02-03 MEM 82 82 36.0 0.510 0.100 0.736 2.3 6.4 8.8 2.8 0.4 1.8 2.60 2.70 19.0 03-04 MEM 78 78 31.5 0.482 0.267 0.714 2.6 5.1 7.7 2.5 0.6 1.7 2.40 2.40 17.7 04-05 MEM 56 53 32.0 0.514 0.167 0.768 2.3 5.0 7.3 2.4 0.7 1.7 2.45 2.60 17.8 05-06 MEM 80 80 39.2 0.503 0.250 0.689 2.4 6.5 8.9 4.6 0.6 1.9 2.94 2.30 20.4 06-07 MEM 59 59 36.2 0.538 0.273 0.748 2.5 7.3 9.8 3.4 0.5 2.1 2.75 2.30 20.8 07-08 MEM 39 39 36.7 0.501 0.267 0.819 2.4 6.4 8.8 3.0 0.4 1.4 2.05 2.20 18.9 07-08 LAL 27 27 34.0 0.589 0.000 0.789 2.3 5.6 7.8 3.5 0.5 1.6 1.63 2.00 18.8 Career -- 503 497 35.4 0.513 0.227 0.733 2.5 6.1 8.6 3.1 0.5 1.8 2.55 2.40 18.8 01-02 ATL 77 77 38.7 0.461 0.300 0.801 2.6 6.5 9.0 3.1 1.3 1.0 3.25 2.80 21.2 02-03 ATL 81 81 38.1 0.478 0.350 0.841 2.2 6.2 8.4 3.0 1.1 0.5 2.62 3.00 19.9 03-04 ATL 53 53 36.9 0.485 0.217 0.880 2.7 6.7 9.3 2.4 0.8 0.4 2.47 2.80 20.1 03-04 POR 32 3 22.8 0.447 0.364 0.832 1.5 3.0 4.5 1.5 0.8 0.6 1.66 2.30 10.0 04-05 POR 54 49 34.6 0.503 0.385 0.866 2.3 5.0 7.3 2.1 0.9 0.5 2.17 2.80 16.8 05-06 SAC 72 30 27.2 0.525 0.227 0.784 1.5 3.5 5.0 2.1 0.7 0.6 1.50 3.20 12.3 06-07 SAC 80 45 25.2 0.474 0.150 0.726 1.5 3.5 5.0 1.4 0.7 0.5 1.45 3.00 9.9 07-08 SAC 6 0 8.5 0.214 0.000 1.000 1.0 0.7 1.7 0.7 0.2 0.0 0.17 1.50 1.7 AVG since .480 6.0 15.7 Since the trade (not even counting the 07-08 season where Reef only played 6 games) Reef averaged only 15.7 ppg on 48 % FG with 6.0 rpg and less then 1 bpg. Played in 50 less games then Gasol. Meanwhile this is what Gasol has done: 18.8 ppg, 8.6 rpg, 1.8 bpg, .513 FG %. Played in 50 more games then Reef. Now Reef is 32 and Gasol is 27. Draw your own conclusion if that is not a "bad deal." Not to mention we have not had a talented 7 footer with offensive scoring ability since Kevin Willis. Gasol could have been that guy for 12 years. Hasn't Gasol proven that he is not a guy you can build a championship team around either? I think the Kukoc for Big Dog trade was a total dog (pun intended). It was obvious from the very beginning that the trade was not going to work out.

Quote: This is not specifically directed at you but when Marvin is the topic, all that matters is that he has been in the league for 3 years not how old he is relative to the person he is being compared to. That said, I think that Horford CERTAINLY gained some maturity and strength in college that Smoove didn't have as a rookie and I'm sure that was a BIG reason he was better. STILL, I think that ALL rookies, including those who play all 4 years, have a steep learning curve coming into the NBA and I think that Horford will be SIGNIFICANTLY better this coming season than he was last season. I agree with this, but I think rookies who spent 3 or 4 years in college should be expected to make a big jump (or at leat a bigger jump then a prep-to-pro or one-and-done rookie) in their second seasons. Hopefully Horford and Acie make big strides in their second seasons.

Ugh. I guess we know what Marvin is going to be asking for.

I think a guy like Roger Mason would give the team good flexibility.

I really am surprised that Brand left the Clippers. He is a real good fit in Philly though.

The article doesn't say that Brand is leaning towards Philly. Rather, it says Philly is making moves such that it can be a viable suitor. In the end though, Brand can do whatever he wants.

Quote: to focus. College kids aren't used to the focus required to bring their "A game" every night. In addition, he is going to have to realize that he has a target on his back as the #1 overall pick. I have NO doubt that Beasley is going to be fine. #2 overall pick.

I still expect Smith back with the Hawks. Hawks management would really need to screw something up if he is not back in the fold.

Quote: How about he and Law play well enough that Sund feels comfortable trading Bibby? I don't think Speedy can do anything in the summer league that would warrant a team taking him in a trade, he'll need to stay healthy for at least the first half of the season for that. But if he and Law give the team 48 minutes of solid floor leadership, then maybe we can do something sooner than later with Bibby's expiring deal. Get Mike Wilks as your 3rd PG and hope for the best. (Especially since Law seems to be rehabbing that wrist to hopefully limit future injury to it). There is no way the Hawks could trade Bibby or Law even if Speedy plays great during the summer league simply because Speedy is not reliable. He always gets injured and the possibility of him lasting a full 82 games (and hopefully the playoffs) is nil and void. Way too risky if you ask me given Spedy's injury history.

Quote: ...and of course, stayed on the East Coast for college. I'm uncertain why anyone would allege, given a set of circumstances such as Philly has, Brand would be resistant to coming back to this side of the country. I think he stays in LA. He is big into the movie business and that, coupled with a chance to play with Baron Davis, will get the deal done with the Clippers even if it is for less money.

Quote: Other than the fact they don't need him? I don't see why they would need him either. They have Thad Young and presumably Iggy already on the wings. Both those guys are much better athletes then Childress. Similarly, I don't see why Golden State would want Smith, since they already have Wright and now Randolph. Obviously Smith is a couple years ahead in the development curve, but still doesn't make much sense.

I would definitely trade Chill for Iggy.

Quote: Quote: It is a lot easier to do that with veterans who have already made their money versus young up and coming players still searching for that big payday... A lot of the money Smith will get is still based on his potential. True. And yet... it's more necessary and more efficacious with the young and upcoming players who are in a position like Smith. The veterans at that level are ordinarily known quantities. Not to go negative, but the NBA is full of players at Smith's stage where clubs gambled and didn't see progress match potential... which, in turn, corrodes maneuverability when it comes time to acquire that one or two players who can legitimately put the team into a contending position. It's not unlike a young up-and-coming QB in the NFL making accomodations in their contract to accomodate the players around him (--which of course, their rules make it more easily to shift money from one year to another). Unfortunately, that is not the way it works in the NBA.

Quote: Quote: This scenario is only possible if the Clippers renounce the rights of Corey Maggette and Brand takes a slight pay cut. Sources say the Clippers are expected to do just that and quickly reach a verbal agreement to bring back Brand. I've always thought, though not having been at the table maybe I presume too much, that GMs need to approach players like Smoove and Chilz with a master plan that shows forethought as to how the team's roster and salary structure is designed to get that team to a position where they can legitimately contend for a championship... and, that players need to approach those plans with great scrutiny, and a lot of questions... with the result being that both sides have some buy-in about the future of the team, and thus, a greater inclination by the players to accomodate other current, and future needs for the roster. I don't mean to suggest that this isn't already done. If it is, it is not publicly understood to be common practice. But I have to think that, particularly if I'm a player at Sund's Stage 3 or 4, I'm eager to understand where I fit into the master plan from his perspective... and to give him some feedback on how I think the master plan needs to be modified, to the degree that I think that... and then, assuming there's adequate agreement, given those parameters, to come to an agreement on a contract that fits into that master plan. My inclination is that that may be a more transparent process than many feel comfortable with, since it would coincidentally reveal future projections/expectations of players' achievement on the team--some of which may not be greeted very well if, as one would suspect, the information gets passed along to other players. But nonetheless, I think everyone likes to know (a) how the management intends to go forward, (b) where everyone stands in that picture, and © sets some parameters for understanding player evaluations the next off-season. It is a lot easier to do that with veterans who have already made their money versus young up and coming players still searching for that big payday. Brand was willing to forego some money so that the organization could put a competitive team on the floor. Smith and Childress, and Marvin and Horford in future years, are not only looking for their big pay day but they are also still developing as players. A lot of the money Smith will get is still based on his potential.

Davis Mobley/Gordon Thornton Brand Kamen Not too bad if they can stay healthy.

Quote: Quote: Quote: Kwame would be a good player to bring off the bench because he plays great post defense but you cannot expect him to score or put him on the floor with players who cannot create their own shot. Randolph Morris wouldn't be bad either because he is still young and can become decent. Does Kwame play "great" post defense? Yes but he sucks at everything else. You are the first person I have heard call Kwame a "great" defender. Maybe I am missing something but I haven't seen it in the few opportunities I have had to see him play.