Packfill

Quote: Quote: The main fix is that BK and Woody have to hit the road. The Hawks will never be any good until they are gone. BK's blown opportunities may have cost the Hawks their chance at being a winning team any time soon. I can't blame BK since he was handcuffed by the greedy owners. Presumably, the greedy owners did not handcuff BK into making some horrific drafting errors.

Quote: I would trade our Marionesque player in Chilldress for him, don't need two. I wouldnt trade Smith. I am not sure how Childress qualifies as "marionesque" other then having an awkward looking jump shot.

Quote: Josh has the potential to be a better Marion, but he won't get there until he starts playing smarter and learns to defend better on the ball. Agreed. That said, I am not sure it makes sense to go after Marion if it means losing Josh Smith. At the end of the day, JJ, Marion, Horford and Bibby isn't enough to win a championship (it is not as good as Nash, Marion, Amare, etc.). If the Hawks could somehow make the money work and trade Marvin for Marion, that would be something to seriously consider as it would significantly strengthen the small forward position for the Hawks.

Quote: Quote: Joe Johnson is far and away the Hawks best player. Not really. If you put a gun to my head... I'd probably take Josh Smith. He does a lot more, imo. Has a higher ceiling, as well. This is Joe's ceiling. Josh Smith is still too inconsistent and makes too many mental mistakes. When the mental aspects of his game catch up to his physical abilities then he may realize his potential.

Joe Johnson is far and away the Hawks best player. Obviously he isn't on the same level as Kobe or LeBron, but that does not take away from the fact that he is a very good all around player who has been forced to play too many minutes on a bad team. Without JJ the Hawks would probably be the worst team in the league. JJ would be awesome paired with a true star like Tim Duncan.

Quote: Quote: I think Childress is fine as a bench player, but I wonder if having another shooter (i.e., Bibby) on the floor helps balance things out with Childress in the lineup with the rest of the starters. They key is the Hawks, like just about every other team, need two shooters on the perimeter in the game to maintain proper spacing. With JJ and Bibby maybe that helps the spacing enough to allow Childress to collect the garbage - which he does well. Bibby and JJ can't be both on the floor all the time. And they both wont be shooting well all the time. Most teams have several guys who are consistent perimeter threats. Agreed. Problem is Marvin hasn't been shooting well for the past month so that limits the teams options.

I think Childress is fine as a bench player, but I wonder if having another shooter (i.e., Bibby) on the floor helps balance things out with Childress in the lineup with the rest of the starters. They key is the Hawks, like just about every other team, need two shooters on the perimeter in the game to maintain proper spacing. With JJ and Bibby maybe that helps the spacing enough to allow Childress to collect the garbage - which he does well.

Quote: Quote: Like I said, whoever ASG hires to replace Billy will benefit from the players Billy has brought to Atlanta. Just like in Memphis though, fans like you will never give Billy the credit he is due. Billy is one of the best talent evaluators in basketball. His ability to bring in talented players is the reason this is an attractive coaching situation for some free agent coaches at this point. Just like in Memphis though, Billy will be criticized for not building a team when he put the foundation for success into place in both places. In Memphis, Jerry West initially won with that foundation and then stifled Memphis's growth with his own poor decisions. However, none of you will ever point out the mistakes that Jerry West has made while the GM in Memphis. It's not a coincidence that when Jerry started trading key players that Billy had brought in like Shane Battier, Memphis's success started to fall off. I thought we were building a championship contender here? Wasn't that the reason for trading Shareef, JT, and Theo? No honest person can look at the Atlanta Hawks core players, and say there is a championship on the horizon. Bingo.

Quote: Quote: Look Bro.... You can't give him credit for drafting the concensus best player over need for one draft and then give him a "Let" for drafting for need over the concensus best player in another. He was supposed to evaluate the talent available and get what was best for the team. All I am saying is that he didn't do that. OG That is my point. That is what you guys are doing with the whole CP3/M-Williams and Roy/S-Willams. You guys say CP3 (a lie because it was Deron at the time. lol).... But you claim to have wanted CP3 over Marvin because we need a PG. Well, how can you next year want Roy when we need a Big or PG??? Just my point as fans we always claim we wanted the NOW start player we missed out on. NO BODY WANTED CP3 ON THIS BOARD. I bet if I go back to the 2006 draft I will find maybe 1% who may have wanted Roy at the time. Stop blame the GM for making mistakes when you too did the same thing. Atleast he admit his mistake by trying to do something about it. I guarantee you that I wanted Paul prior to that draft.

Quote: BK IS NOT THE PROBLEM HERE open your eyes! Drafting? Has he been that bad??? J-Chill - pretty good. Marvin William – yeah CP3 wanted to play here but as I have proved BK went with the safe and right pick at the time. As I have shown by bringing up the threads that were posted before and after that 2005 draft. 95% of the people in the NBA world said Marvin was the best player in this draft. HELL, some of them going #1 in the draft. I don’t blame BK for not wanting to be the next Portland Trail Blazers GM for not pick Michael Jordan over Sam. Even on this board CP3 got no loved. It was Deron Williams. Now everyone claims they loved CP3. lol A BUNCH OF JOKERS! Hey, but that is what fans do, right? We love to act like we knew what was right all along after the facts. I guess that is why we keep getting turn down as the next great GM. LOL BK did a good job in finding 2 unknown talent players in Daiw and J-Smoove. Who ppl killed him on too for making those picks. You don’t hear NO ONE saying he was right on those. He admits he got it wrong with S-William. BUT, He had the right idea when he picked S-Williams. You see that in Big AL. He wanted a banger in S-William just like he is getting out of AL. At the time Sheldon were one of the best in College when pick 5 came. If Tyrus Thomas or LaMarcus Aldridge was at five, I'm sure he would have them over S-William but Williams was the best big on the board. Pretty much he was doing what you guys claim he should have done the year before was picking a need, a center or pg. That is the whole M-Williams arguement about, right? So, why go pick ROY when you need a C or PG? You guys need to make up your mind on what you want BK to do. The good thing a lot of ppl are not talking about Billy is when he makes a mistake he will do what it take to correct that mistake. IF THE ASG allows him to you don’t see that in a lot of GMs. Trying to fire Woody - admitting he picked the wrong coach to coach up the potential talent in his players. Trying to trade for Jose Calderon/ trade for Bibby. Trading away a bust and getting the PG this team needs – once again, correcting a wrong. Your Big ENORMOUS problem is the ASG. It all starts with them. It is them who will not Fire the problem on the court… AKA… “WOODY D’OH I DON’T KNOW WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON” The 1st thing everyone says around the league about our team is, “THEY ARE VERY TALENTED” Well, that should tell us all that Billy is not the problem, he is putting the TALENT on the court but the TALENT is not being COACHED. I think the old posts show that there were a number of people who felt that Paul was the right pick. Do the search and see for yourself. BK has consistently drafted guys who have underperformed their draft position. The only outliers are Smoove and Horford. Smoove, if you remember, was the hometown boy who fell from the lottery. It was an obvious pick that a dog could have made. Horford BK deserve credit for, but again, the pick hasen't resulted in an improved team on the court. BK is the one that hired Woody in the first place. His one other coaching hire was Sidney Lowe. Do you trust him to hire a good coach now? It took BK over 3 1/2 years to get some semblance of a balanced roster and even now the team stinks. How is it possible that this team is no better then last season?

Quote: Quote: If Billy Knight knew how to build a team he wouldn't be getting fired. It is that simple. In his two opportunities to build teams from the ground-up he has failed to get the job done. When you waste draft picks on marginal talent sooner or later it comes back to haunt you. Sooner or later a GM has to be accountable for his record. This is the 4th year of rebuilding and the Hawks are 11 games below .500 in a weak conference. That can't be seen as anything but failure, especially considering all the blown opporunities. One of those blown opportunities dropped 23/18 on us last night. BK's poor drafting is an obvious problem but to me, his biggest weakness is the inability ti identify coaching talent. He literally has hired two of the worst coaches of all-time. That is not an easy thing to do.

Quote: Billy probably isn't going to be the GM after this season, but you guys typically overstate things in your hatred for anything associated with Billy Knight. Question. When Atlanta gets a new GM, do you think that GM is going to come in and blow everything up by getting rid of everyone Billy Knight brought in? If you answer truthfully, you will see the answer is no. In fact, the talent Billy has put into place is the reason fans are disappointed with this season and the reason there are guys out there chomping at the bit to get an opportunity to coach this team. The fact is, Joe Johnson, Mike Bibby, Al Horford, Josh Smith, Marvin Williams, Josh Childress, and Acie Law are the primary reasons guys like Larry Brown are interested in taking this job. If Billy is so terrible and so inept as a GM, then how in the hell has he put together a talented young team that one of the best coaches in NBA history wants to come in and coach? Just as I expected though when Billy took the job. Billy did all the hard work. He's the GM that has been forced to suffer through the losing to build the team the right way. A new GM will come in, inherit what Billy has put into place, and will win with what Billy has put into place. In typical fan and media reaction though, Billy will get no credit for what he has done. All the credit will go to the new GM, despite the fact that the core of the team was put into place by Billy Knight. This happened in Memphis, and it will happen here. But you guys are going to get your wish. Billy is probably not going to be the GM of this team after June 30th, if not sooner. I fully anticipate all of you talking about how much better whoever the Hawks hire is than Billy Knight, and I fully anticipate you giving that person all the credit when he makes a minor tweak or two to the roster. If Billy Knight knew how to build a team he wouldn't be getting fired. It is that simple. In his two opportunities to build teams from the ground-up he has failed to get the job done. When you waste draft picks on marginal talent sooner or later it comes back to haunt you.

Quote: In the GS game it was the penetration that was killing us. Baron or Ellis had no problem getting in the lane and when the defense collapsed there was Pietrus or Jackson ready to knock down the three. Bibby's nice and all, but we're just not going to be a good defensive team when he's on the floor. We're really gonna need Acie for this stretch run. Even when healthy Bibby has never been known for his defense. That said, Baron Davis can go to the rack on anybody when motivated.

Quote: Quote: Really, what do some of you want him to say? This is a guy that no matter how well he plays, he gets criticized endlessly by a bunch of fans who don't know what they are talking about. Fans that completely make up criticisms such as your clumsiness comment or the recent idea that Marvin cannot create his own shot. Marvin just came off a game where he scored 20 points on 50% shooting, but you didn't hear a damn peep out of any of you who constantly are berating him endlessly. Let him make one mistake on the floor though, and the guy is the worst player this league has ever seen. That's why I kind of went off the deep end last night during halftime of that Warrior game. All of that BS about JJ not being this or that. Then he has one one of the best halves in franchise history, and there's hardly a peep about that. But let him miss a few shots and have a few stupid turnovers, and they come out the woodwork to whine and cry and belittle the guy. It's happened to every single player on this team, outside of maybe Acie. Acie has gotten a pass from the majority of Hawksquawk, including myself. But here's a legit question about Marvin's situation. If he were in Milwaukee, or New Orleans, or Utah, would he be a better player under a different system, coach, and teammates? Conversely, what would a Deron look like under Woody? Paul? Personally, I think Paul would be OK. He wouldn't be a potential MVP candidate, but he'd still be good. Deron though, Deron might be a mess in Woody's system. It took a while for Deron to take control in Utah, so there's no telling how Woody would've treated Deron. And Stockton worked with Deron after his rookie season. Who would've helped Deron here? Spud? Morlon Wiley? Players have to be in the right situation, in order to maximize their potential. The vast majority of #2 picks are thrust into being one of the main guys right off the bat. And they usually don't have to compete for their starting job. It's usually already open or handed to them. Marvin, Darko, and Tyus Thomas were all guys who had more talented guys playing in front of them in their rookie years. The GMs on those teams are more to blame for their lack of development, than anybody else. If Marvin is drafted to replace Harrington, then get rid of him right off the bat . . like Seattle did with Ray Allen concerning Durant. BK pretty much wasted a entire year of development with Marvin at the 3, and frankly with Josh Smith at the 4, by keeping Harrington around as long as he did. I mean, even look what happened with Horford. His constant improvement is due to the fact that he was thrusted into the starting lineup right away. God forbid that Zaza was healthy to start the year. Woody may have suppressed Al, in favor of going with Zaza for 25 - 30 minutes a night. That's exactly what happened with Acie, with him not playing signifcant minutes behind AJ and Lue. If he's the starter from the beginning, there's no telling how far along he'd be right now. We might not even trade for Bibby. But with Bibby here, his development may also be slowed, and his ultimate potential may not be realized. Meanwhile, Conley is getting valuable minutes in Memphis, even though they lose on most nights. This time next year, people will be talking about how good Conley looks, compared to Acie, who will be Bibby's backup. They made sure they got rid Damon's azz, so that Conley could develop as fast as possible. Marvin is in an unfortunate spot. He gets so much heat from the fans and press because he is, unfortunately for him, the poster boy for Billy Knights screw-ups. Fire BK and the heat gets turned down on Marvin quite a bit.

This guy is the architect of a house with a rotten foundation, and for this team to heal he needs to be sent walking ASAP. As far as I can tell these are the reasons he needs to go: 1. Poor drafting. 2. Inability to put together a balanced roster. 3. Has hired two of the worst coaches in NBA history. How is that possible? 4. Obviously does not have the full trust of ownership. Now this one is debateable because the owners give every appearance of being low grade morons, so I am not sure falling out of their good graces is a black mark.

Quote: The three shot is what really put us away against Boston, Golden State, and New Orleans. It is such as valuable weapon in the NBA and you have to be committed to stopping it. I wonder why we don't put Mario West in more to lock down a perimeter guy a la Bruce Bowen. But that would require in game strategy, something we haven't had in here since Lenny Wilkens. The problem with puting west in is who do you take out? JJ? Bibby? Marvin?

Quote: I would just as soon forget that era. Reefs 20 and 10 are kinda like Zach Randolphs 20 and 10. He actually did more harm than good. The guy was a loser as a ball player. He was a great guy and had alot of class just not much heart on the court. I think its awesome that alot of the old player are up there and the picture of Smoove from the dunk contest is up there. Its all great work indeed. IMO however Reef sticks out like a sore thumb with the Hawk greats though. Careful, because if Reef's stats were meaningless then what does that say about the teams current stars? Reef was a good player, just not a great player. He would have made a very good second option to someone like a Kobe Bryant (ala Pau Gasol) or as part of an ensamble cast like Detroit where you have someone like Billups to take over down the stretch.

Quote: I just think it's funny that you say they're an automatic first round exit when they beat the #1 seed in the first round last year. Plus, given how good the Lakers and Spurs are, any eighth seed would be lucky to get to the second round.

Quote: Quote: Quote: Quote: Quote: This is a little bit much. I mean your feeding off everyones frustration. He is not the worst in history, but he is the worst here since I have been a Hawks fan. Tarkanian was a horrible coach. I voted yes but honestly should have voted "maybe" which is almost as bad. Has any coach in NBA history had a worse winning % with as many games or more as Woody's coached? Maybe so, I just don't know one way or the other. This doesn't precisely answer your question but: Worst winning percentages (all-time; min. 200 games coached) Coach Sport Pct. Sidney Lowe NBA .257 Tim Floyd NBA .280 Curt Fraser NHL .285 Bobby Wallace MLB .287 Ron Rothstein NBA .296 Woody clocks in at an auspicious .306. Anyone know??? I voted maybe. I was trying to think of Sidney Lowe. Guess which GM hired Sidney Lowe!

Quote: Quote: Unfortunately, the Hawks do not play smart basketball. A lot of that can be blamed on the coach but the players are all knuckleheads too, so they need to take ownership of the problem as well. I don't think anyone here disagrees that the players need to hold themselves accountable, and that they deserve a huge portion of the blame. But at the end of the day there's only one guy who can try to wake them up and get them to hold themselves accountable. That's the head coach. Woody's lost this team. Let's say that's 50% Woody's fault, 50% the players' fault. There are only two solutions. 1) Get all new players who will listen to Woody, 2) Get a new coach who can try to get their attention. Let's say for argument's sake that Woody's a B- coach that can't get his team to do what he wants them to do. Even a C- coach could be more successful with this team if he can get their attention and get them to do what they need to be doing. Woody and this team is a lost cause. Waiting any longer is only delaying the inevitable. Agreed. The solution starts with finding a viable coach. After that, the organization will need to decide whether the players are worth keeping around.

Unfortunately, the Hawks do not play smart basketball. A lot of that can be blamed on the coach but the players are all knuckleheads too, so they need to take ownership of the problem as well.

Quote: This is such a FAKE AZZ FAN BASE. JJ scores 29 (( bleepin )) points in the 1st half, and the only mention about it during this thread, is about him actually NOT trying to do the exact same thing, because the Warriors will double him . . like JJ doesn't PASS the ball when need be. Let Smoove, Marvin, or Chill even put up 15 in a half, and people are slobbering all over them. Such fakeness. I kind of hope JJ misses his first 3 or 4 shots, just to see how some of you woul react. And SmoooveTheFuture, this isn't necessarily directed at you. This is directed at all of those fake azz Hawks fans that down a layer when they're playing bad, but don't even give them props when they're playing welll. It's the same ish that KG went through in his last year in Minny. Such a fake azz fan base this is. That's why no one cares about the Hawks. The Hawks are fortunate to have real azz fans like yourself who accept sub-mediocre play from their favorite team. I will be first in line to give the team props when the begin to play well for an extended period of time. While they continue to play dumb uninspired basketball they deserve the hate they get. 10 games under .500 is just not acceptable.

Quote: Quote: He disappears when we need him, h's very unclutch, he can't guard superstar players, he's gets lockdown against double-teams. I think he would excel if he was the 3nd or 3rd option. I don't think we have to go get a superstar, I think Smoove, Marvin, or Horford need to take that next step to their game. Like I said . . Hawksquawk has VERY short memories. Year 1 of JJ in ATL: He's asked to play the point. When it is evident that it's not in the team's best interest to play the point, he's asked to be a playmaker type shooting guard. The result? He averages 20.5 ppg and 6.5 assists. When you look at the guys who scored a total of 1600 points, 500 assists, and had 100 steals that season, JJ is in a group that includes LeBron, Wade, Iverson, and Arenas. Kobe is usually in that group, but he didn't have the assists that year. Year 2 of JJ in ATL: He still has to be the playmaker on the team, seeing how our PG situation is still not settled. But he does something that no one expects, and that's really become more of a scorer. Although the season is a failure, JJ averages 25 ppg, 4 assists and 4 rebounds. He also shoots 47% FG, which is pretty high for a 2 guard/small forward that has to do it all for their team. Once again, he's in a select group of 2's and/or 3's that averaged 25 ppg or more, while shooting 47% or more. Only Wade and LeBron achieved that feat last year. Year 3 of JJ in ATL: The PG situation is still unsettled, although it is better than the previous 2 years. JJ is still asked to do everything. But this year, the shots don't fall as easy as they did in the past 2 years. More noteably, teams are looking to flat out shut JJ down, treating him like they would a megastar player. And it is immeadiately noticed by fans and media types, that JJ doesn't have the "pop" that he had in his game last year. So questions about him wearing down or possibly still being hurt come into question. This year, we've only seen flashes of the player that we've seen for the past 2 years. The big thing about JJ this year, is that he's not hitting the floater at a high percentage. That shot used to be money throughout his career. He doesn't have the lift and explosiveness thathe had last year, a lot like what you see from Wade this year. He may not admit to it, but he's not 100% folks. Some games you can see the pep in his step, but because he has to play heavy minutes in order for us to win, he'll wear down a little more easily. While he's not in the Kobe, Lebron group, he's definitely on that 2nd level. Let's see how he plays next year, before making sweeping negative generalizations about his game. It's just a shame that this fan base has always underappreciated what he's done here. At the end of the day, no one would care what JJ's scoring average or shooting percentage is if the team was winning. Problem is, and this is obviously not all on JJ, the team hasn't won much with him as the No. 1 guy.

Quote: I'm sure Lebron would have loved to add JJ instead of Larry Hughes; JJ would have been deadly playing alongside someone like that. JJ is a very good player, but the original poster has a point in that JJ would be better as the second option on a better team, sort of like how Gasol looks so good on the Lakers because of the presence of Kobe. JJ would be a deadly weapon teamed up with LeBron.

Quote: You might be right, but I think with the Bibby trade he really transformed us into a team that can compete with anyone. Hopefully after it has been 30 days we can bring back Lo and maybe even TLue if he gets cut and that will help a lot with the depth issues. At this point, we don't even know if BK is the one that pulled off the Bibby trade. Heck if he doesn't have the authority to fire a coach I doubt he has authority to make a trade for a max contract point guard. It is very interesting that while in Memphis BK traded Bibby and now in Atlanta he is trading for him. Totally weird.