Packfill

Quote: I agree that Smith is the team's most overrated player. While his shot-blocking is consistent, the rest of his game is all over the map. He was great after the All-Star break 2 seasons ago, then got off to a horrible start last season (remember his infatuation with the 3-ball?) And after the mysterious hernia surgery, he played at an All-Star level. But folk seem to only remember his very good 40 games and not his very bad 40 games. The way I look at it, at least Smoove has had long stretches of outstanding play, which is more than you can say for the other Hawks youngsters.

Agreed.

This could happen, and would in reality be a nice problem for the Hawks to have, but the chances of it actually being the case are remote. Remember, Smoove is the same age as Horford and is still improving himself. Also, Woody has held back rookie draft picks in the past - evidence the fact that no Hawks rookie has had a standout season during the BK/Woody reign. I really have to think that Woody and BK are going to be under alot of pressure to actually win some games this year and that means Woody is more likely to go with a 4th year veteran over a rookie. But, great play by a Horford would be awesome.

In the article where Sekou interviewed Shelden I believe Shelden said that he was back in Atlanta doing informal workouts with teammates. Am I wrong?

Good list. More then anything that really shows that there is generally a giant chasm between the top 5 or so players at a given position and all the rest.

It is a real shame that Elton Brand got injured. Like JJ, he is all business on the court and a true professional off the court. I hope he makes a complete recovery.

Quote: Let me see if I can clean up some of the BS for you then. 1. Lue was a 27 year old PG that was in the final year of his deal. He was pretty much the engine that ran our broke down car in those final 2 months. JJ and Chill's success does not come, if Lue doesn't play the PG position well enough to get them the ball in good spots. Lue's numbers those final 2 months: 15.3 ppg . . 5.4 apg . . 47% FG . . 37% 3FG . . 91% FT - in March 16.1 ppg . . 6.3 apg . . 52% FG . . 56% 3FG . . 93% FT - in April OK . . I'm just supposed to just brush that type of production off? If we got that from Law, or even Speedy this year, people would be praising the heavens and talking Eastern Conference Semifinal or Final appearance. Lue definitely has deficiencies. I've been one of his biggest critics over the years, especially his defense. But with the way he played in those final 2 months of the season, it's not out of the realm of possibility that BK told Lue: "Go ahead and see what you can get out on the market, but we'd like to have you back here. If no one offers you a deal to your liking, we'll take care of you." It may have been BK's "plan" to always get either Bogut or Marvin with that #2 pick, because he knew he had Lue in his back pocket if he needed an adequate PG to put out there with the kids. Even Paul's stellar workout wasn't enough to sway BK off of Marvin, because of his "potential" to be a star. And because most NBA stars play either the 2, 3, or 4, BK was willing to take Marvin instead of the solid PGs in Paul or Williams. I don't think that's BS at all. 2. OK, let's assume you're right. BK's plan for JJ was for him to start at the point, and be Chauncey Billups-like. Maybe not from a playmaking standpoint, but definitely from a scoring standpoint. But we all know that JJ was at the very least 4th on BK's target list, behind Allen, Redd, and Larry Hughes ( oh God, imagine this team with Hughes. We'd definitely be in trouble. ) Espn reported here that Larry Hughes had agreed to sign with Cleveland. This was on July 9th of that year. A full 2 weeks after the draft. Of course, this had been rumored for a few weeks before the actual signing, but Hughes was being courted by a number of teams, including the Hawks. But if you're right, and JJ was talking to the Hawks before the draft, then that would give even more credence to why BK took Marvin, instead of Paul or Williams. 3. I agree with that. But there's a difference between a franchise caliber PG, and a superstar caliber franchise PG. Both of those guys were definitely good enough for us to take at #2. But the fear in the NBA has always been passing over a young guy that is projected to be a star. We've seen this with Garnett, Kobe, T-Mac, Amare and a host of lesser players that turned out to be pretty good. It's easy to believe that the Hawks didn't want to be the franchise to pass over the next potential star young player. It's like KB said. It's easy to provide revisionist history on a guy who hasn't developed quite as fast as people would want him to. But at the time he was selected, he was almost a lock to go no less than #2. A team that had won 13 games the year before, couldn't afford to pass up on the guy that most "experts" thought would be the "star" out of this draft class. Neither Childress nor Smith showed any inkling that they'd rapidly turn into star players anytime soon. And Smoove would've definitely fit into that mold, had Woody not moved him to the 4. People may not agree with the decision, but I can easily see why the Hawks did what they did when it came to selecting Marvin. 1. It was unrealistic for BK to consider Lue a potential starter regarless of what his stats were for a horrible team. There is a reason why he was shipped out of Washington (i.e., it was evident he could not be a starting point guard). 2. The whole "JJ is a point guard" thing was a fallacy from the beginning. Almost anyone with any sense knew that he was destined to play shooting guard. 3. If neither Childress or Smith showed any inkling of being stars then it shows that the Childress pick was a mistake as well since both Deng and Igoudala have gone on to become all-star caliber players. I really hope Marvin explodes in his third year like other youngster such as Smoove, Deng, Bosh, McGrady, etc.

Quote: Quote: Man... You guys don't remember do you?? This is what happened. We started off with Al/Walker... we played Chillz some at 2, but he started slowly. We then moved Smoove in there and he started getting recognition because of his finishes and shot blocking. After that... Walker and Harrington went down. So it was Smoove and Chillz playing the 3 and 2 respectively.. And down the stretch they looked good. So good that it made no sense to go out and draft Marvin... because we had 5 guys who could play Sf and no real PG or C. LOL @ this. You make the claim that we didn't need Marvin, because Smoove and Chillz were playing well down the stretch. Do you remember who else was playing well down the stretch? Tyronn Lue. Lue was good in March and April of that season as well, even though we only won 3 games after the all-star break. In fact, he was better than both Chill and Smoove. Did that mean that we didn't need a PG as well? If we'd been lucky enough to get the top pick, Andrew Bogut would probably be our center right now. And when Bogut wouldn't have panned out, I guess people would be crying about not drafting Paul, Deron or Marvin ( if he happened to play well with another team ) Once Bogut was off the board, Marvin was picked because: 1) we needed talent, regardless of position . . hell, we needed bodies period 2) Harrington was going into his last year of his contract, and we probably wasn't giving him a big money extension, so he would most likely be gone by the next summer. 3) Guys like Hughes, Allen, and Redd never really considered ATL a destination, even if they got max money from us. 4) There was no talk of JJ on the radar at the time of the draft. 5) Very few "experts" thought that neither Paul nor Deron would be star caliber PGs. Those same people thought Marvin could be a star in 3 - 4 years. Whether people believe it was the right pick or not, I've always understood why the Hawks chose Marvin over the PGs. It has been a long time (or at least since Walter was banned) since I have read a post with this much b.s. 1. Lue playing well down the stretch that year is irrelvant because he was a veteran and everyone knew at the time that he was a limited player (i.e., poor defender; shooting guard in point guard body; etc.) that was not starting caliber. On the other hand, two rookies playing well down the stretch is meaningful. And the fact that both of those players were small forward types (along with the team's first round draft pick from the previous year) does suggest that the team needed talent everywhere EXCEPT small forward. This fact has been painfully obvious for years now with respect to center and point guard. 2. JJ was a consideration at draft time, albeit it was in no way a done deal. 3. Alot of people thought Paul and Deron were potential franchise point guards. Go back to Paul's freshman year in college and there was already talk about him being a potential franchise caliber point guard. They were consistently talked about as two of the best point guard prospects to come along in quite some time.

The Hawks are going to have to start playing some defense if you are going to compare them to the Bulls.

Interesting that Smoove has dropped weight from last season.

Quote: Quote: "Mismanaged as they may be, they have Andre Miller, and he's really something." LOL. That line made me laugh too. He's really something, eh? Well what exactly is he? He's a competent point guard, no more and no less. He averages around 14 points per season, 7 assists, is a pretty good shooter, an excellent free throw shooter, and shows the leadership qualities you'd want and expect from a veteran point. He'd be a nice piece to have on any team, but Bucher's making it sound as if he's a difference maker or an elite player, and he's simply not and never has been. Philly had a better record with Miller then with Iverson. That says a lot to me. Miller on the Hawks would make the Hawks an easy 45+ game winner. Easy.

Quote: When Ty Lue is on his A game he does the same things that Miller does. This is completely untrue. Andre Miller is a gifted passer and distributor. Ty Lue when is is on his "A game" does a good job as a shooter. He has never been a good passer.

Quote: On the whole, UNC players own Duke players in the Pros, no argument there. Is this really true anymore? UNC still has some really good older professionals like VC, Jamison and Rasheed, but the younger guys (Marvin, May, Felton, McCants, etc.) haven't reached that level while Dukies like Boozer and Deng are emerging as some of the NBA's best. Granted the coaching turnover at UNC in recent years is certaintly a contributing factor to this.

Quote: Did you know that Wojo's their big man coach? Eric was just another of the recent highly rated and sought after big men prospects to come to dook and disappear. He transfered after his freshman season. All you ever heard about that year was how thin their frontcourt was despite the fact that a McDonalds All American 4 star big man was rotting on the bench waiting for a chance to play. BUt the talking heads spouted on and on about "overachieving". How do you overachieve with all american big men riding pine? Some of the most recent big men success stories among guys who committed to or went to Dook: McRoberts - McDonalds guy - #1 PF in his class and potential lottery pick coming out of highschool. He ends up the #37 pick in the next year's draft. Huge disappointment, looked emotionally drained and weak spirited, rumors that K destroyed his confidence. Or was it just that Wojo can't develop big men despite his awesome career as a college center?...wait...of yeah, he was a 5 foot nothing pg. Boateng - McDonalds AA - #3 C in his class, transfers to AZ St cause he couldn't get any run. Shav - McD - #1 player in his hs class until senior year injury, still a potential lottery pick according to some, ended up #6 PF in class, gets misused at dook, over fed and had his confidence destroyed by how he was treated. The strained relationship he and his family ad with K was very public. He ends up undrafted but signed with the 76ers. Michael Thompson - McD - #5 C in his class, couldn't get any run, transferred to Northwestern. Kris Humphries - McD - #5 PF in his class (18 overall) committed to dook but he saw the light and all of the sudden he switched to Minnesota. Smart play. And a few from the old school: Chris Burgess - McD - #1 player in his class, transferred to Utah, had a very nasty relationship with K - his father calling K out as "dishonest" to reporters. Billy McAffrey - McD - transferred to Vandy Joey Beard - McD - transferred to Boston University So why do young big men still commit there? I have no idea. I don't have a dog in the UNC/Duke fight, so this is just a question - who is the last UNC post player to make it big in the pros? Jamison? Wallace? I don't think May has established himself yet.

Quote: if summer league told us anything it's that solo is still a project and nowhere near being in this upcoming year's rotation. I don't see how Solo gets minutes on this team either as it will take a total crash and burn by either Horford or Sheldon to open up any minutes for Solo (or Lo for that matter).

Outside of something unforeseen, I will be disappointed with less than 40 wins although I realize it will be hard for the team to reach that mark.

I am definitely not questioning their results from last season, just that Boston does have a few good defenders (Garnett and Rondo in particular) and a committment to play D by Pierce and Allen would probably be enough to get them to atleast mid-pack in terms of defense. I think it is a shame that they had to give up Gomes as he would have been a great hustle guy to bring og the bench at the forward spots. I actually expect Chicago to be the best regular season team in the east this coming season.

It is a real shame about Brand. He is the type of hard working productive player you can't help but root for.

Quote: Quote: I think when you really look at it, Kobe was lucky to have a great team to help him win championships early. Nique would eat Kobe's lunch. Nique carried a nothing Hawks team much farther than Kobe has carried the Lakers alone. May have to agree with Diesel on this one! I don't think that any of the Hawks that played with Nigue made the Allstar team more than once! The Hawks won plenty of playoff series unlike the likes of tracy McGrady, Garnett, Kobe without Shaq, Allen Iverson and the rest of the Steven A. Smith allstars! The only multiple all-star attendees that Dominique played with while on the Hawks were Moses Malone and Reggie Theus. Moses made it once while a Hawk but mostly was on the downside of his great career once he came to Atlanta. Theus too was paste his all-star form when arriving in Atlanta. Other guys who made the all-star team during Dominique's tenure are Doc Rivers, Mookie Blaylock and Kevin Willis.

At this point the team might as well go into the season with the roster as it is and see if any of these guys can play together. When the organization commits to winning they will probably have to make a move or two.

Greg Popovich is a pretty good example. He does have a big time superstar in Duncan, which obviously helps, but he is able to motivate that team to play defense and utilizes veteran players in well defined roles.

Quote: Detroit, Cleveland, and Chicago will all finish ahead of Boston this season because all three teams will be much better defensively, and all three will do better than Boston in the playoffs. If you put coaching aside, how is Cleveland better defensively than Boston now? Look at the interior defenders on the two teams: KG and Perkins vs. Gooden and Ilglauskas. Big Z was in decline last year, Gooden has never been that good and they lost Varejeo (at least I think they did). LeBron is excellent and Highes is good when healthy, but beyond that . . . Boston has a chance. I do agree that Detroit and Chicago have better defenses overall, but Detroit's defense isn't the same with Nazr in place of B. Wallace.

Quote: Quote: On the side of devils' advocate, most of the other teams in our territory of losing games also had significant injuries last season (Milwaukee lost a ton of games to injuries including injuries to their starting SG, SF, PF and C; Boston lost/sat Pierce among others and added KG and Allen); Charlotte lost Okafor, May and others to injury and added Richardson; etc.). True, but i'm not sure those teams were reduced to giving players like Matt Frieje & Cedric Bozman major minutes. But the real difference is that the Hawks were winning before the injuries, I don't Boston, Charlotte, or Milwuakee can make that claim! Boston and Milwaukee can.

Quote: Quote: Swing and a miss. I never said anything about an aging veteran. So Speedy, Joe, Wright, Lue, Anthony Johnson aren't veterans? Heck even Zaza, Smoove and Childress have been in the league 4 years or more so who do you want as your veteran??? Wright, Lue and AJ are garbage. Speedy is completely unreliable because of his constant injuries. Zaza's contract is running out and hopefully is replaced in the starting linup by Horford making him an unlikely resigning (thus you have to start thinking about trading him when you can or lose him for nothing). It is unclear whether the team will fork over the dollars to keep Childress when his rookie deal ends. Etc. In the end, aging vets plus a superstar or two win championships.

Quote: Quote: But I believe that they can make it with healthy players. Here are my top 8 Eastern teams (when healthy) in my opinion (Not in order): 1. Boston 2. NY 3. Toronto 4. Washington 5. Chicago 6. Orlando 7. Atlanta 8. Philly I think that Detroit, NJ, Miami, Cleveland and Indiana are all on the downward spiral. I think Milwaukee is hard to call.... They have the talent, but they are still missing something. I think the Bobcats are also a bubble team. They could be one of the strongest teams in the east, but I think being healthy is their main concern. For us to make the playoffs in either the 7th or 8th position, we will have to get good guard play. I think it was extremely important for us to acquire Law... and I also think it's just as important to get Speedy back healthy. Lue and AJ are third stringers in my opinion. huh? what am i missing here? ny is pure trash. they add a blackhole to an already disfunctional, overpaid, selfish collection of players that have no interest whatsoever is putting forth an ounce of energy on defense and they become the one of the best team in the east? its time to get back on the meds! ny if everything goes according to plan (or what's on paper) then they might SOMEHOW vie for the 8th playoff spot. how in the world do you take detroit out of the playoff mix? those guys are like the braves. they can win regular season games in their sleep. their corp has been together forever and nothing has changed that. they'll easily be on of the top 4 teams in the east. i do agree with you that boston is the team to beat in the east. those three players shouldn't have a problem playing together and i think their games will mesh nicely. if they can add another veteran pg i.e. brevin knight to that squad they should win 50 games without breaking a sweat. the worst two teams in the east will be philly and indy. indy hasn't made a move to improve their roster and oneal and tinsley are accidents/injuries waiting to happen. i don't think mike dunleavy is all of the sudden going to be the savior either. as for philly. i like louis williams but he's only a summer league star. i wouldn't bet the house that he is going to be a major contributor or difference maker this year. he still turns the ball over too much and against real nba players he can't score at will like he does against weak 2nd rounders and the leonard hamiltons of the world. the heat are deteriorating fast. shaq is quickly becoming a non factor. and wade simply doesn't have enough pieces to be a serious factor in the east. toronto is a middle of the pack team. they definitely have no where to go but down. i think they peaked last year. washington is a regular season team. gilbert is going to get his, along with caron and jamison but they don't have a single frontcourt player worth mentioning so i don't think they improve much at all. charlotte and atlanta improves because i think their core of youngsters have been around each other for several years now and they both added some nice pieces this year. charlotte's never had a go-to guy, but they addressed that with richardson. atlanta hasn't had a legitimate starting pg or frontcourt depth which hopefully both were addressed by horford and law. so my top 8 teams go like this. (if healthy) in order. 1. boston 2. chicago 3. detroit 4. new jersey 5. washington 6. toronto 7. orlando 8. atlanta/charlotte/ny Wasn't Philly better last year after they traded Iverson? They definitely need someone to step up next to Iggy and Miller, but good team play (like Toronto) can make up for a lack of talent in the regular season.